What happens if you cross a carpet to a woma? (dialup) [Archive]

totally banned

04-11-05, 09:40 PM

O.K, I said I'd never post on this forum again, but you did not post this on any forum I participate in, so I gotta make this post.

My first reaction is "that is just wrong, we've crossed the line here" but after looking at the pictures and things, my post is not going to be about that.

I never thought a woma would breed with anything besides a blackhead, and dont think that cross should be highly sought after, but I'd be interested in the results none the less.

This cross is way more interesting in my eyes. Woma's can breed with other pythons - it's been proven now.

Many of the pictures, to me, look very much like baby rainbow boas (in head shape and things). I don't know what I'd have thought the cross would have looked like, but a kind of boa is not what I'd have thought. So I guess I'm glad to see what they look like - and huge congrats on that project.

7 eggs hatching is way better than most bateater crosses I've heard of - so you either did an amazing job, or it might be suggest that woma's and carpets are easier to cross than retics and burms - which most people consider to be much easier to do.

I have these questions.... Did the snakes actually breed and do it naturally, or was there any human intervention at all. By this I mean any hormones for the female, or any re-direction of semen.

To me, the science of this cross is more interesting than the fact someone played frankenstein.

I tried to make bateaters last year cause I think they are cool, so I'm not gonna preach about trying this cross. Very interesting snakes, - looks like a lot of diversity, I can't wait to see them as they age.

Ryan (Scales Zoo)

pythonmdk

04-11-05, 10:01 PM

Those little guys look incredable, I never would have thought of a woma carpet cross. Really neat. YOu have to let us know what they look like as adults and if they have any breeding potential of their own, I would guess not but hey I would have guessed that it could never have been done. Good for you.
~John

M_surinamensis

04-12-05, 01:36 PM

Here's hoping that the seven which managed to hatch (a 33% hatch rate should be a strong indicator that this isn't right) have internal deformities that kill 'em off within the next couple weeks.

gonesnakee

04-12-05, 02:28 PM

Heres hoping that your wishes of ill luck bring it on yourself there M. surinamensis. Talk about bad Karma, hoping for animals to die just because they don't coincide with your own personal beliefs. I think you to be the one with the internal deformities to wish such things. Mark

dr greenlove

04-12-05, 03:18 PM

Originally posted by M_surinamensis
Here's hoping that the seven which managed to hatch (a 33% hatch rate should be a strong indicator that this isn't right) have internal deformities that kill 'em off within the next couple weeks.

Regardless of whether or not you agree with hybridising a critter i cannot fathom why you would wish the animals suffering and death.

Very strange.:(

M_surinamensis

04-12-05, 03:21 PM

I never mentioned any suffering... a painless death would be quite acceptable.

Joe

04-12-05, 03:39 PM

I agree, In my eye's this is just wrong... In another thread we have people talking about cat killing, and here hybrids... wierd....

dr greenlove

04-12-05, 04:01 PM

Originally posted by M_surinamensis
I never mentioned any suffering... a painless death would be quite acceptable.

How would this painless death occur?

For the record i don't really agree with hybridising anything really...but that would be just my opinion.

IMO these animals are interesting because who would have thought that such different species could be genetically compatible?

A thorny issue though, fascinating or not.

Lrptls

04-12-05, 04:12 PM

i also disagree with producing hybrids, just dont think people should do it but they do. i can't stop them, i wish they didn't do it but i wont force myself to hate the products. i think that snake is absolutly gorgeous and alot of other hybrids are beautiful but i think we are better off with out them.

mathaldo

04-12-05, 05:02 PM

Beautiful...
Here's hoping that the seven that hatched stay healthy.

ssscales

04-12-05, 06:34 PM

Great work K!

Good luck with those seven and I'm sure most here hope to see many pics with time.

Jungle Jen

04-18-05, 11:12 PM

Regardless of my feelings on the hybridization issue, I do NOT understand someone wishing these innocent animals dead. That ill wishing is just wrong. JMO.

Dirty

04-20-05, 11:44 PM

Hybrids are awesome I don't see why people have a problem with them

Dom

04-21-05, 12:14 PM

Totally wrong but amazing none the less

Gregg M

04-21-05, 12:56 PM

21 eggs, 14 of them bad???? That should tell you something right there by its self..... I could see breeding intergrades that occure naturaly, but this is just sickening..... They should be fed to a monitor or king cobra..... Heres to hoping they are all unable to reproduce

gonesnakee

04-21-05, 01:51 PM

Just for the record my Woma just laid her eggs recently from a Woma X Woma breeding & 2/3's of her eggs were bad. Does this mean that I should not breed them anymore either because it must be "Wrong"? The # of unfertile eggs is just as likely a result of not enough successfull copulations as anything you folks are trying to suggest with your moral judgements. So anything that maybe considered morally wrong by you, we should approach with a "Kill Them All!" Attitude then? And then wonder why we still don't live in a perfect world? Glad everyone heres attitudes aren't that ____ed Up! LOL Karma will come round I'm sure. Mark
P.S. "You can stand on the corner preaching down solutions... I don't need your Spirtual Pollution!"

Gregg M

04-22-05, 10:02 AM

If 2/3 of your eggs are going bad, YOU are doing something seriously wrong, not your animals.....

Like I said, they should be used as feeders.....

Forget about morals, it is biologicaly wrong......

Dirty

04-22-05, 01:22 PM

So what? Hybrids aren't hurting anything

gonesnakee

04-22-05, 03:13 PM

"biologically wrong" LMAO, better let Mother Nature know LOL as obviously She's not following your "Rules" LOL. Mark
P.S. BTW infertile eggs due to lack of successful copulations is pretty hard to control by the breeder & IMHO is not a valid claim to right or wrong by any means. To each their own, me I can accept Reality whether I like it or not. Nuff Said

M_surinamensis

04-22-05, 03:13 PM

Hybrids aren't hurting anything?

Creamcicle corns are a non-naturally occuring intergrade between corns and emoryi. The majority of podunk two bit basement first male and female animal they come across "breeders" don't know this. They cross them indiscriminantly "to see what happens." The offspring aren't properly represented and are sold... where someone else crosses them with their corns because they were never told... and the offspring are sold...

Take a glass of water. Call it a captive population of animals. Add a drop of iodine. A single drop. That glass of water will NEVER be pure again.

It's only a matter of time before the same is done with say... "Jungle Corns" or "Jurassic Milks."

What Kara continually does, despite my objections (Kara, I demand you comply with my personal moral views this instant) is on a slightly different level since the hybrids are being created using rarer and obviously more expensive animals to begin with... We're not getting any more Womas without some smuggling or a serious restructuring of Australia's export laws. What we have is what we're gonna have. Every single animal is a proportionally large part of the potential breeding population. That genetic material is needed to establish the populations a little more firmly as being stable. Womas, diamond pythons... they're too valuable as the species they are to go wasting them creating abominations against evolution. The next steps would be say... bredls crossed with angolans. After that, why not tackle some highly endangered island populations and species that aren't a stable breeding population in nature much less in captivity... mix some round island boas with costa rican golden toads that were cloned jurassic park style from preserved specimins. There's no end. Hybrids are a very legitimate danger.

If you *can't* see why it's morally and ethically objectionable... well then I think you're a little on the dim side. Only two reasons to produce hybrids like this; greed or a god complex coupled with the moral fortitude of a sociopath. The two aren't mutually exclusive either.

sydcire

04-23-05, 07:40 AM

I dont care what anyone thinks they look sweet.everyone always complaining about hybrids,man if you dont like them dont look at them,or buy them.nobody is forcing hybrids on to anybody.some of the nicest snakes out there are hybrids.so my blood line is half german and half english,so i guess my grand parents have bad morals for getting together,give me a break.the whole world is one big hybrid.

CARLiTO_

04-23-05, 07:46 AM

Originally posted by sydcire
I dont care what anyone thinks they look sweet.everyone always complaining about hybrids,man if you dont like them dont look at them,or buy them.nobody is forcing hybrids on to anybody.some of the nicest snakes out there are hybrids.so my blood line is half german and half english,so i guess my grand parents have bad morals for getting together,give me a break.the whole world is one big hybrid.

What don't u understand? Human beings are all the same species. (Homo sapien).

Womas are aspidites ramsayi and carpet pythons are morelia spilota cheynei.

Do humans crossbreed with apes?

I hate the fact that many of North America's snake keepers actually like hybrids and do not see anything wrong in doing it. I think it's the fault of the breeder who just wants to make a quick buck because they have something different. They do not seem to care too much about the greater good of the animals.

RB420

04-23-05, 08:28 AM

Originally posted by sydcire
nobody is forcing hybrids on to anybody.

Thats the problem tho. They are! because the minute someone misrepresents a hybrid as being a woma, or whatever kind of snake that is. and sells it to somone one else with out telling them that oh yeah there is also some carpet in that woma. then the person breeds his new woma to is other pure woma and sell the babies as all pure woma but in reality they are not. think about how many unknkown hybrids that would put on the market 10 generations down the road. Whether they show it or not, they are not pure woma's or carpets or whatever. then they ARE forced on us because we have no way of knowing.

rattekonigin

04-23-05, 11:22 AM

Man, people love to play the endangered species card...Maybe, as far as endangered species go, people should worry a little more about mitigating habitat destruction and development than the potential dangers of a "contaminated" <b>captive</b> gene pool...

Gregg M

04-23-05, 11:47 AM

I think alot of people are just too stupid to see the problem with this..... Using your nationality as a comparison is just silly..... Humans are all the same species no matter what continent they are from...... Apples and oranges.....

I guess it is to be expected that hybridization of different species would be OK to someone that thinks Germans and English people are different species.....

It is pretty sickening to see how far down the tubes, peoples ethics have gone.....

Like I have stated before, ***NATURALY*** occuring ***INTERGRADES*** are ok to reproduce in captivity......

***HYBRIDS*** of a totally ***DIFFERENT SPECIES*** that would ***NEVER*** cross in ***THE WILD*** is a horrid thing to do..... It is wrong ethicaly and biologicaly..... It is not the way that was intended for these unfortunate hybrids..... I do hope that they are culled somehow..... Nature has a way of getting rid of things that should not be.....

I know one dealer/breeder that I would never buy from....

RaVeNo888o

04-23-05, 02:21 PM

While they do look nice. I would rather see a nice looking species than a nice looking Hybrid.

I think people should concentrate on bringing out the desirable traits in a species, like getting really bright jungles and stuff. You dont have to go out of species to get something that looks really nice. Nature looks good too

RB420

04-23-05, 03:13 PM

i hear ya greg, its frustrating. im not sure why a lot of people just don't get this concept. Its even more annoying tho when they do, but just don't care.

Dirty

04-25-05, 02:01 PM

But I seriously doubt there will EVER come a day where there are nothing but hybrids, and pure forms of non-hybrid snakes will not be available. Personally, I don't see a hybrid as a money making scheme (morphs maybe), but there isn't anything wrong with creating hybrids as long as their either sold as hybrids or kept by the breeder (my preference).

Gregg M

04-25-05, 02:49 PM

Originally posted by Dirty
But I seriously doubt there will EVER come a day where there are nothing but hybrids, and pure forms of non-hybrid snakes will not be available. Personally, I don't see a hybrid as a money making scheme (morphs maybe)

If that is really what you think than it is obvious you do not know what you are talking about.... Hybrids are a big money making scheme, and it is very possible for the captive blood lines to be tainted due to hybidization..... Especially with animals that are no longer being imported into this or any Country..... And it has already happened with corns.... Anyone with a half a brain can see this and the other obvious problem that come along with hybrids..... Feeders is what they should be used for......

Dirty

04-25-05, 04:59 PM

That's not what I meant I meant that if I produced a hybrid it wouldn't be because I was trying to get paid, it would be because I would like to own at least one myself; and if I WERE to sell any I would definitely sell them as hybrids. I know other people do sell hybrids as "pure" breeds, I'm just saying that's not MY motivation. Sorry I wasn't more clear. I DEFINITELY do not agree with your feeder idea though, there's no reason why a hybrid shouldn't be taken care of just as well as any other snake.

tonyb

05-03-05, 03:52 PM

it worries me that its the same organisation that produces the different hybrids. people all over the worlds try it and fail 99% of the time and yet this one group get so much success. i wouldnt be suprised if there wasnt some kind of human intervention.

personally im against producing hybrids, especially when its for financial gain, which this blatantly is. its not for scientific or educational gain so that just leaves the money.

JDouglas

05-03-05, 05:09 PM

If that is really what you think than it is obvious you do not know what you are talking about.... Hybrids are a big money making scheme, and it is very possible for the captive blood lines to be tainted due to hybidization..... Especially with animals that are no longer being imported into this or any Country..... And it has already happened with corns.... Anyone with a half a brain can see this and the other obvious problem that come along with hybrids..... Feeders is what they should be used for......

I have to disagree with most of the posts here. Often times hybrids are produced out of curiosity and other times to create a beautiful intergrade. Breeders see qualities in each snake and want to combine them to make a more attractive snake. Of course beauty is in the eye of the beholder and IMO crosses make up some of the best looking snakes out there. I know some of the crosses are not attractive but the ones that are can be amazing. Charpondros, Hypo/Hogs, and High % diamond/jungles can be amazing animals and they give keepers something different to work with. NERD is interested in breeding morphs and the most attractive snakes they can including intergrades. Most of the stuff they have is not found in the "wild".

As far as Nerd is concerned I think they did it more out of curiosity rather than to get rich. They are at the top of the market when it comes to reptiles and don't need a get rich quick scheme as you are suggesting.

There are several breeders producing Woma clutches every year. This is why the Woma prices have dropped so much the last few years. There isn't a shortage of Womas despite what you may think and as long as these breeders keep creating Womas you and the rest of the herp community have nothing to worry about.

You keep reffering to corns like there populations is tainted. There are thousands of breeders producing pure corns every year and corns have been crossed with other species for over a decade. You better go buy more pure corns and Womas before there are none left. LOL!

LdyDrgn

05-03-05, 05:40 PM

"Get rich quick" scheme? I think not. Kara would be the first person to ask you, "What? You're supposed to make money doing this?!?"

RB420

05-03-05, 05:41 PM

money or no money. the motive isn't wht makes this Right or wrong.... and wrong it certainly is

Dirty

05-03-05, 11:31 PM

in your OPINION

Gregg M

05-04-05, 10:32 AM

LdyDrgn, You know I think highly of you, but you have to question the ethics of a breeder/dealer that would put two animals that are two totally different species together in captivity, with the hopes of creating a hybrid that would NEVER happen in the wild..... And to say money has nothing to do with it is just silly.....LOL......

There are just some things that should never be done and this is a prime example of it.....

Dirty, this hybrid being wrong is not an opinion...... It is ethicaly, morally, and naturally wrong...... It goes against nature....... This cross and many others were never ment to be....... There is science behind why it is wrong..... There is no science behind making these hybrids.......

Here is why people "make" hybrids....

(1) Money
(2) God complex
(3) Money
(4) To be the first to do something with captive reptiles
(5) Money
(6) Curious to see what comes out
(7) MONEY

All of the reasons above are for personal gain and nothing else...... Selfishness and greed.......
These hybrids do nothing for the animals in question...... Infact, it does them much more harm than good...... And that is scientificly proven, not opinion.....

These people producing these hybrids are ethicaly and morally questionable at best...... Who knows, the next time someone buys a woma, it might very well have alittle bit of carpet blood in it...... Too bad for the person that thinks its a pure example of the species...... I honestly hope every one of those hybrids winds up as a feeder....... The people that created these Frankenstien snakes are def off my list of people to buy from and I will make sure everyone I know (which is quite alot) knows about the questionable antics going on.....

Yasser

05-04-05, 03:14 PM

This "in it for the money" crap is just that...crap!
Do you have any idea how hard it can be to create these crosses? I know some folks who have been trying for several years with swell over 20 specimens total of Chondros and Carpets and they've gotten nothing to show for their carpondro project. If they were truly in it for the money, they'd be far better off breeding them pure for those several years to bring in those "big bucks". Those who attempt to hybridize will go broke if they tried to do it for the money. Why this concept fails to sink in with some folks truly boggles my mind.

You can justify your beliefs all you want by dragging in YOUR morals and YOUR ethics and YOUR beliefs in what YOU think Mother Nature NEEDS. But don't push that crap on me becasue I have MY own beliefs and morals. This is free society the last time I checked. You fight your "good" fight and I'll fight mine.

Also, just remember science is based on what man believes is correct through data collection. It does not mean it is FACT. Scientific nomenclature is a MANMADE (read that as non-infallible)way of labelling the creatures that roam this earth. And every year things get revised a little more because information has bubbled up to prove previous findings wrong. These revisions are an effort to be as accurate as possible. The hybridization of the Carpet and the Woma blew all of that out of the water at it's fundamental core. Two species that were long thought to be highly divergent from each other have proven to be closely enough related to produce viable healthy little babies. That is fact...something no one can deny.

-Yasser

gonesnakee

05-04-05, 03:46 PM

Good post Yasser. I was going to post again in similar fashion, but its far more entertaining just to read Gregg's posts LMAO Only one I see with a God Complex is him. Some folks just can't handle that everyone else doesn't think the way they do & will go all out to try & prove that they are right & anyone that thinks anything different is wrong. Afterall his posts are not opinions, but the FACTS & we are all apparently must just be stupid greedy heathen not to understand or care what he thinks LMAO. In reguards to all about $ GET A GRIP! LOL Ever breed hybrids? NO (just crossbreed vipers, but thats OK as its not about $? or being the first? or just wanting to see what comes out?) how would you know then? You don't! I personally make more $ off of pure Corns or CKs than I do off of Jungle Corns, but afterall I'm just greedy & hybrids are all about $ or no that can't be it they sell for the same or less as pure specimens. It must be my God Complex or maybe I'm just out to destroy someone elses visons of a perfect world. LMAO Time to go check for some Jungle Corn eggs & see how my Jungle Jaya is doing : ) Mark

greenman1867

05-04-05, 04:08 PM

Originally posted by Gregg M
21 eggs, 14 of them bad???? That should tell you something right there by its self..... I could see breeding intergrades that occure naturaly, but this is just sickening..... They should be fed to a monitor or king cobra..... Heres to hoping they are all unable to reproduce

Get off your High Horse

greenman1867

05-04-05, 04:09 PM

Originally posted by Gregg M
LdyDrgn, You know I think highly of you, but you have to question the ethics of a breeder/dealer that would put two animals that are two totally different species together in captivity, with the hopes of creating a hybrid that would NEVER happen in the wild..... And to say money has nothing to do with it is just silly.....LOL......

There are just some things that should never be done and this is a prime example of it.....

Dirty, this hybrid being wrong is not an opinion...... It is ethicaly, morally, and naturally wrong...... It goes against nature....... This cross and many others were never ment to be....... There is science behind why it is wrong..... There is no science behind making these hybrids.......

Here is why people "make" hybrids....

(1) Money
(2) God complex
(3) Money
(4) To be the first to do something with captive reptiles
(5) Money
(6) Curious to see what comes out
(7) MONEY

All of the reasons above are for personal gain and nothing else...... Selfishness and greed.......
These hybrids do nothing for the animals in question...... Infact, it does them much more harm than good...... And that is scientificly proven, not opinion.....

These people producing these hybrids are ethicaly and morally questionable at best...... Who knows, the next time someone buys a woma, it might very well have alittle bit of carpet blood in it...... Too bad for the person that thinks its a pure example of the species...... I honestly hope every one of those hybrids winds up as a feeder....... The people that created these Frankenstien snakes are def off my list of people to buy from and I will make sure everyone I know (which is quite alot) knows about the questionable antics going on.....

Again, here's a soap box, take it out to the corner and have a blast.

greenman1867

05-04-05, 04:11 PM

Originally posted by montie420
money or no money. the motive isn't wht makes this Right or wrong.... and wrong it certainly is

Certainly? I would say the only certain thing there is that you have an opinion and would "certainly" like to shove it down people throats.

greenman1867

05-04-05, 04:15 PM

Originally posted by tonyb
especially when its for financial gain, which this blatantly is. its not for scientific or educational gain so that just leaves the money.

I suppose you have had personal contact with NERD's accountant and he faxed you copies of their financial records proving the millions they are making of Hybrids?

greenman1867

05-04-05, 04:21 PM

Originally posted by Gregg M
I think alot of people are just too stupid to see the problem with this....

Ah yes, the personal attacks to prove how obviously superior your mental capacity is. Yes that’s it, keep proving your amazing intellect. Ooohhh Ahhh, so very smart.

gonesnakee

05-04-05, 05:48 PM

Does anyone have a link to a site that will explain what is Right/Wrong "ethically, morally & naturally" as apparrently I need some guidance in these areas LMAO Mark
P.S. If the good folks at NERD that had the good fortune of hatching these little miracles are still reading all this "pushing of morals/ethics CRAP" LOL I again wish you well & hope they are all doing great for you! Lets see a new thread with some updates. Cheers Mark

Gregg M

05-04-05, 06:38 PM

Wow, I guess I hit a sore spot with you hybrid lovers..... LOL..... I will give my stance on hybrids as long as there are hybrid breeders and threads about them..... Too bad, I will not go into a corner or not speak my mind because you said so..... And yes, if you all can not see what is wrong with hybrids, than I am affraid my brain functions much better than yours does...... It figures the only ones to talk highly of hybrids are the ones making these frankenstein snakes...... To all of you hybrid breeders, thanks for helping to pollute the pure blood lines...... Job well done......

Have I ever bred hybrids???? No, but I have bred naturally occuring intergrades (gaboonXrhinos) that do actually cross in the wild with regularity...... And I have never sold one of them......

So I have a couple of questions for Mr. corn snake breeder..... Do you like working with corns or do you just lack the skill to keep something a bit more challenging????

Do you like playing god when you make hybrids????

Does it make you feel good????

You see, the only ones who think it is ok are the ones who are lacking ethics and respect for the animals...... It also takes a person who knows absolutly nothing about these animals, the problems that stem from hybridization both to the animal physicly and the captive populations, and their taxa.......

Let me see, a degree in biology specializing in herpetology, ten or so years working with numerous zoos on breeding programs, 13 years of keeping and breeding venomous snakes and over 20 years of keeping reptiles in general...... Yeah I guess I am a few steps above alot of you who think hybrids are ok.....

The only reason to create a hybrid is for SELF GRATIFICATION.... Nothing more........ Hybrid breeders are one of a few black eyes in the herp community and so are the uninformed people that support them......

Sorry if I do not want to see pure bloodlines tainted with some blood of another species because of some ignorant breeders greed....

And to the people kissing NERDs but, are you fishing for a discount on a hybrid or something????? LOL

Anyone have any cheap hybrids for sale???? I have a king cobra that needs to eat.......

Yasser

05-04-05, 08:03 PM

Wow!
I would have figured with all the education and knowledge you have, that you'd actually come to the table with some facts instead of your ego.

The fact that you wish for these crosses to die makes me wonder who really has the god complex.

For the record, I wholeheartedly support hybrids and the right to do what you want with specimens that will never be released back into the wild. And while I own several hybrids I too have yet to produce one or sell one to another party.

And yes, My interests are for my self gratification...are you really working with snakes to save a species?! Please! While you try to answer that question, please provide proof (not hearsay) that hybrids have damaged anything. Corn and the various king crosses have been around for over twenty years yet I would have no issue in finding a pure corn or King if I wanted to buy one.
The fact that you cannot have a serious discussion without making accusations or namecalling proves you have nothing left to contribute to this topic. You are quite free to state your opinion but making assumptions and degrading others only makes YOU look bad.
Run back to your zoos buddies. It is well known that there are now more reporoductive successes with rare and endangered species in the private sector than by zoos. I never had much respect for zoos anyway....they are the carnival that never leaves town. That's precisely why the AZA and other zoos affiliates are supporting the legislations around the country to take away the right the keep reptiles by the general public. It's because it is hurting their business. And that's exactly what zoos are.....Businesses. And this is eactly why zoos will only sell thier offspring to particular dealers. It'sw becuase those dealers are willing to hide the fact that the babies were produced by zoos. If that info got out, it would prove how hypocritical the AZA is. But that's another topic for another time. I seem to have veered off course.

-Yasser

greenman1867

05-04-05, 09:06 PM

Originally posted by Gregg M

Let me see, a degree in biology specializing in herpetology, ten or so years working with numerous zoos on breeding programs, 13 years of keeping and breeding venomous snakes and over 20 years of keeping reptiles in general...... Yeah I guess I am a few steps above alot of you who think hybrids are ok.....

I have a king cobra that needs to eat.......

Now don't you think highly of yourself?! LOL I think someone needs his ego stroked. All that drivel above does not make you smart or right.

If you don't like it don't look. You have that power, but I guess the bottom line here is you wanted to start a little argument to show us how incredibly smart and self righteous you are.

Get over yourself.

Pompous:
Main Entry: pomp·ous
Pronunciation: 'päm-p&s
Function: adjective
1 : excessively elevated or ornate <pompous rhetoric>
2 : having or exhibiting self-importance : ARROGANT <a pompous politician>

A$$
Pronunciation: 'as
Variant(s): or arse /'as, 'ärs/
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English ars, ers, from Old English ærs, ears; akin to Old High German & Old Norse ars buttocks, Greek orrhos buttocks, oura tail
1 a often vulgar : BUTTOCKS -- often used in emphatic reference to a specific person <get your *** over here> <saved my ***> b often vulgar : ANUS
s:

Look familiar?

Gregg M

05-04-05, 09:06 PM

greenman1867

05-04-05, 09:15 PM

Originally posted by Gregg M
..... I am more concerned about the physical being of these hybrids......

Hmm did I miss something or did this obviously superior snake handlers last post say something about feeding the Hybrids to his.......*gasp* KING COBRA!!!!! LOL So much for the caring sensitive side.

I ain't beating or knocking, just posting my opinion of people like you who do feel superior and think you have the right to cram your ideals down peoples throats.

As for coming out and saying what I mean, I am pretty sure a real smart guy like you can figure it out.

Gregg M

05-04-05, 09:21 PM

Originally posted by greenman1867
Speaking of which, what part of you gets great satisfaction from keeping, not BUYING mind you (check the sig), but keeping Venomoids? Yet again, I would say it's an ego thing.

Where is the ego???? I dont see where you are going with this..... I would never buy a venomoid because I do not support animal abusers..... That does not mean I would turn one down as a rescue or if F&W brings me a confiscation...... Do you know what a venomoid is????

Many people on this site know me well and can tell you I am not arogant, pompus or ego driven..... You are barking up the wrong tree there buddy..... I think you need to be sprayed with a garden hose to cool you down a bit....LOL

greenman1867

05-04-05, 09:23 PM

Yup your right, actually I edited that out because it was inappropriate.

Gregg M

05-04-05, 09:24 PM

Originally posted by greenman1867
Hmm did I miss something or did this obviously superior snake handlers last post say something about feeding the Hybrids to his.......*gasp* KING COBRA!!!!! LOL So much for the caring sensitive side.

I think death by king cobra would be much more humane than to let a hybrid live deformed life.....

Gregg M

05-04-05, 09:28 PM

Originally posted by greenman1867
Yup your right, actually I edited that out because it was inappropriate.

Yeah and so was the pompus *** statement...LOL

Yasser

05-05-05, 09:15 AM

Get one thing clear...... I do not work for a zoo or zoos.... I have worked with them with breeding and conservation projects...... You have no respect for zoos???? You have your right to not respect them but atleast give a reason why

I gave my reason.

I do however agree that the private sector has done alot with animals and is the reason why zoos are so successful with their breeding programs

HUH?! Please explain how that works.

It is about the dangers in hybrids..... I am more concerned about the physical being of these hybrids...... There are more deformities and health issues when two different species breed and have young...... This again is proven fact and this info can be found all over the net or any good scientificly based biology or taxa book...... You will have to look it up because I will not do the work for you.....

In lower vertebrates, this has NOT been proven.
Maybe in Mammals but nowhere else. Even in Mammals, this is most often not the case. Recently a male false killer whale successfully bred to a female False Killer whale X Bottlenose Dolphin, making a 74% False Killer Whale. Momma has had no health issues in her life and her new baby is reported to be doing just fine. And for the record, this was done in a zoo. If anything, it has been proven in many cases that hybrid vigor exists in reptiles. The hybrids grow faster, mature sooner and lay more eggs. That's a FACT. Now I beg of you, do the work for me. Find your "proof" or don't bring it up.

And to tell you the truth, I am not totally against the legislation that has been going on...... It is apparent that not everyone should have the right to work with reptiles....... As you can see, people are trying to change reptiles to fit what they want...... Venomoids, hybrids, whats next????

Then you truly are an adversary to the herp community. Any regulation is bad regulation. Are you also a member of PETA?

And if you must know, I have done much study and put lots of time that I do not get paid for, into consevation of certain reptile species and I am also involved in education programs...... You can bash the AZA all you like, and you can bash me too...... It still does not change the fact that most hybrids are wrong and so are the reasons for making them.....

So what do you want from me? You want me to bow down and pucker up? Where's my brush so I can stroke your ego? I have not bashed anyone. I have called no one any names. I have merely stated fact. Go back and read my posts.

It still does not change the fact that most hybrids are wrong and so are the reasons for making them.....

I am still waiting for your proof.

I am not self impotant or arogant..... Just felt the need to display my credentials incase you thought my feeling were not based with scientific fact......

What credentials? What scientific fact? I am still waiting for some proof to anything you have said.

Usually someone that feels the need to knock someone else, is the one who has self issues.......

The last time I checked YOU were the one to begin bashing the creators of these hybrids.

Also, I feel I must point out that if you think you are immune to any responsibility to this because you have not CREATED a hybrid yourself, you are not. You own Gaboon X Rhino Vipers right?
They may exist in the wild but do you really think that the ones you have are wild caught? With that said, you may not be producing them but you are creating an interest in them and supporting those who have made these Gaboon X Rhinos in the first place. If tyour hybrids are truly wild caught, what's worse?....making a few hybrids in a completely captive gene pool, never to be mixed with those in the wild? or contributing to the decimation of wild populations?

I love the smell of hypocrisy in the morning!

-Yasser

Gregg M

05-05-05, 12:49 PM

Yasser, what makes you think that I do not know exactly where my stock comes from..... I know for a fact my gabXrhinos are wild caught..... How do I know this???

#1 the price I paid for them..... Wild caughts are MUCH cheaper than CCB.....

#2 Oh yeah I have the import documentation....LOL

#3 Oh wait I also have collection data and the exact locality of where they were collected from..... See this is also something I am working on..... Possible species classification on gabXrhinos because of how frequently they breed in the wild....... They also have small populations where the ranges overlap..... But I am sure most of this is way over your head so I will spare you the details......

Do I belong to peta??? No..... Those people are crazy..... I do however feel that alot of people keeping reptiles are not responsible enough to keep them properly...... Why do alot of people breeding reptiles feel the need to alter the natural state of an animal to suite their needs..... Things like that are a disservice to the herp community..... Hybrids and surgical alteration are wrong....... Strict strict permit systems should be put in place...... Not everyone should be able to keep reptiles....... That is a plain fact and shows when people like you post..... To say that any regulation is bad regulation is rediculous...... The people who spout that stuff are the ones that are affraid they may not meet the requirements in order to keep certain species.... Are you affraid of something Yasser????

What have you done for the herp community???? Anything???? What are your contributions Yasser????

Do not try to battle with me because you will loose fast...... You see, hybrid supportes are a VERY small part of the herp community....... The majority of herpers know that it can be very damaging to the animals and to the captive population...

It HAS been proven that hybrids have many more problems with health than pure bloodlines do.... Thats right it HAS been proven.....

Like I said burry your head in a book besides "cornsnakes in captivity" and you may find some real scientific info that will actually be worth something.....

Have you ever noticed that most hybrids have a "bug eye" problem...... They also have skull structure issues that can restrict their feeding...... Intestinal and digestive problems.... There are also reports of reproductive issues.....

Hybrid vigor???? LOL..... Show me the proof in that...... You cant because there is none......

But hey what do I know, I have only been dealing with reptiles for over 20 years.....

On to Zoos and the private keeper..... Zoos get help from private keepers who specialize in a certain species..... I have offered my services to zoos with breeding programs involving Bitis...... And I am a private keeper, not a zoo official....

Like I said, you are barking up the wrong tree.... What you need to do is pick your fights with some one you can beat..... I have too much backing me up and you have NOTHING to back up your claims..... Simple as that...... No education and scientific study...... How can you even argue the point?????

M_surinamensis

05-05-05, 03:15 PM

So Kara... How many of these are still alive?

gonesnakee

05-05-05, 03:22 PM

Glad to see you keep posting Gregg, we always need a good laugh. Each post is a more pathetic attempt to make yourself look better than your last. Responses of how you are so intelligent compared to everyone else, EGO indeed! For someone who has never worked with Hybrids you seem to THINK you know alot about them, NOT! Sad to see all that Education you have? go to waste over ones Ego. Flame On! LMAO Mark
P.S. Oh & bash Corns & their breeders all ya like, shows your true levels of arrogance/intelligence. Maybe I'll explain it to ya. Some of us choose not only to work with whats "considered" advanced species for our own personal satisfaction (you for example), but actually work with Corns etc. to help promote Herps in general. I can honestly say that I provide 100's of young herpers with their first snakes every single year & help encourage & teach them. It is not uncommon for myself (& many others here) to spend an hour or 2 a day discussing basic husbandry etc. via phone/Net with newbies or their kids. Not as prestigious as your claims, but far more important IMHO & far less self absorbed. Oh & before you throw out that its about $ thing again, Its much easier/profitable to house one or 2 high end snakes whose babies are worth $1,000's each than it is to house large breeding groups of Corns/kings whose babies monetary value is worth 1/50 or 1/100 of a high end baby that is just as easily housed & produced (it ain't rocket science LOL). If I were worried about $ I would have stayed in the Oilpatch. I personally get more satisfaction out of producing/providing a child with their first snake than one worth 1000's. Yep the Herp community would definitely be better off with less unworthy folks like me & more like you, thats for sure LMAO! Oh & back to the whole Hybrid thing, to each their own as far as morals & ethics, but I think the fact they exist & continue to breed & flourish for generation after generation is Proof enough their right to exist. Nuff Said (again LOL)

gonesnakee

05-05-05, 03:32 PM

M suri you posted after me, but a Valid Q! The actual proof in reguards to this particular hybrid lies in the answer. If they do not flourish & successfully reproduce in the future, I will agree they must not have meant to be, but to bash all hybrids in general & claim none should exist because of morals/ethics is different & definitely WRONG. Being a live & let die guy I have to agree that if they don't flourish & successfully reproduce they probably weren't meant to be. Time will tell that, but these self rightous claims of Moral Superiority are just an egotisical joke. Glad to see someone debate the other side as a mature adult with legit Q's. Mark
Ok now nuff said ; )

Invictus

05-05-05, 03:48 PM

Hey Gregg, do you believe in God? If so, I'm more intelligent than you. I mean, there is NO scientific basis for belief in a diety of any kind, and those who do are just plain stupid.

I DO HOPE YOU SEE MY POINT HERE. I don't believe I'm more intelligent than anyone who believes differently than me, but that is exactly what you are doing in this thread. You are by far the most pompous a$$ I've ever seen get involved with the hybrid debate. For some of us, the SCIENCE behind hybridization is the EXACT reason we do it / support it! Kara has just blown science wide open and has made a scientific DISCOVERY. That is what science is, isn't it?

But by all means man, keep flaming. I haven't had this big a laugh since the last time Mormon missionaries came to my house and told me my beliefs were WRONG.

Gregg M

05-05-05, 04:13 PM

Invictus, it is not a question od belief, it is a question of something that is SCIENTIFICLY proven...... Kara has not made a scientific discovery..... That is the biggest joke on this thread yet..... LOL..... Pompus A$$??? Me??? Because I have education and REAL science behind my statement??? Where is the science to support hybrids???? There is none.....

I am wondering how many of these hybrids are still alive......

Gregg M

05-05-05, 04:22 PM

Originally posted by gonesnakee
I personally get more satisfaction out of producing/providing a child with their first snake than one worth 1000's.

Commendable..... This is what this hobby should be about..... But what exactly does this have to do with polluting captive populations with hybrids????

M_surinamensis

05-05-05, 06:22 PM

Captive interfertility is nearly meaningless from a taxonomic standpoint. It's too imprecise and far too open to really have any scientific validity for much of anything... and the few things it would tend to support (like perhaps more recent common anscestry than previously believed) could be shown FAR more easily and far more accurately with an appropriate attention to gene mapping and work on expanding fossil chains.

NERD makes hybrids because hybrids are worth money and they've picked a side in the ethical debate centering around the topic. To imply that there's some kind of higher scientific purpose to the constant creation of "the next thing" other than the advertising generated when they take some pictures is... Well, to be honest a little naive.

I'm really not sure why Kara hasn't commented on the number of offspring which have survived. IF as a hypothetical, it's a full seven out of the seven which hatched there's almost some justification to a position that there may not be immediate and overwhelming health issues (although they really would have to grow and live a full lifespan to support that position completely). If a number of them have died, after the poor hatch rate, it would be a strong indicator in the other direction. Either way, it would help in this particular discussion even though there are multiple objections which can be made to their initial creation.

Thinking back on it... I really do not dislike NERD or the people there. I dislike a number of their practices (There never was a real clear answer about where those venomoids came from or how the NERD staff treated them... and I obviously object to the hybrids) but I respect the fact that they won't intentionally misrepresent an animal as being healthy when it isn't and aren't going to sell anything in poor condition. I'm not saying they're honest to a fault... to be fair there are probably quite a few small dishonesties... I'm just saying that most of the hard statements are either accurate or largely unimportant. I'm not sure what prompts the ambigiousness and elusiveness when asked direct questions at times but it definitely doesn't help the public opinion of a few of their more controversial practices and really doesn't help any fence sitters make a decision about things like the hybrid topic since there are such obvious conflicts about what is and is not accurate.

For what it's worth, I agree completely with Gregg about the whole thing and don't see any problems with the way he's vocalizing his position. Since some of it from both sides will be a matter of perspective and some of it from both sides has been fairly heavy conjecture it's... difficult for some people to accept that there's validity in another's opinion and that conjecture is essentially equally valid all around. However it's not really too educated or insightful to demand more from Gregg while failing utterly to provide any more hard information for (nonspecific and generalized) themselves.

greenman1867

05-05-05, 09:11 PM

I think the issue has become more about the manner in which Gregg has chosen to express his opinion, not the fact that his opinion differs from anyone else’s. We all have opinions and we all disagree with people everyday. However when you are on a soapbox preaching to people and aggressively discounting any opinion but your own, that’s when it becomes a problem.

I am glad that he has his values and stands by them. That certainly does not give him the right to tear into someone whose opinion is not the same as his. In the real world (not sitting at a keyboard) that kind of behaviour can get you into a lot of trouble.

I guess that’s one of the problems with forums. People get to act out in ways they would never dare to in real life.

Regardless, as interesting as this topic has been, it's going nowhere. So, I am done.

Gregg M

05-05-05, 11:25 PM

Soap box??? Is that what you call it when someone can actually back up an objecting (different than yours) stance with true scientific study behind it??? Hybrids have got to be wrong because the HUGE majority of then do not work out and the majority of the one that do "work" usually have health and reproductive issues..... That is a fact..... Sure, once in a while there may be hybrids that work out but that does not mean it was supposed to be...... The fact is, it would most likely never happen unless there was human intervention..... Human intervention is not always a good thing and is more often than not, the wrong thing.....

Do I work with hybrids???? No..... I work with naturally occuring intergrades that were WITH OUT A DOUBT wild caught...... See, there was a chance of natural selection here which is a heck of alot more than I can say for the larger majority of crosses in this country or any......

Soap box??? What ever!!! I guess that is like a default line people use when they can not back up their claims.....

Its also funny how all of a sudden certain individuals want to drop out and say this is going no where...... I guess that is what some do when there is no longer just one person challenging their unbacked opinion.....

I held my ground when there were 5 of you trying to pick me apart...... Now back up your opinion with something more than someone elses opinion..... Give me something solid...... Can you do that????

ravensgait

05-06-05, 12:26 AM

Well a bit late to this discussion , I've read almost all the post in this thread especially Greg's OK because I got a laugh from reading his. Greg you keep harping on science yet you have yet to show any tiny little bit of science to support your view point. With all that there supposed learnin ya has a gotten ya would think yous could well SHOW SOMETHING that supports your um well OK VIEWS is a nice way of putting it. Gee history is full of those who rode their misguided moral righteousness down in Flames. Greg you show nothing to back up your argument the only thing you do is attempt to belittle and insult those who disagree with you. Gee keep right on a going, what is that quote "better to be thought a fool by keeping your mouth closed than to speak and remove all doubt" something like that. It would be one thing to discuss this with everyone here and provide information that supports your point of view but no Greg all you do is say it's WRONG it's WRONG, it's wrong because I say it's wrong boo hoo It's obvious to anyone who finished most of high school and who has kept herps for a year or two that you haven't a clue what you saying in this discussion on Hybrids,(or else have a hard time putting thoughts to words) gee lets throw in INBREEDING and really get ya going.

One thing that gets me is that we are talking about Pythons here the SUB Species Python which if you think evolution is correct then these two localitys being pythons are rather closely related. They evolved to fit into the habitat in which they live. In other words they are different because of time, distance and habitat.

So why is this cross breeding so wrong? No I don't want to hear it's wrong because you say so, give a real reason this shouldn't be done. Now if someone found a way to breed Boas and Pythons two very different snakes oops they are both Snakes and now I've opened a whole new can of worms, Worms are not closely related to snakes are they? LOL

Hey it's like this if you like Hybrids good for you if you don't want one that's OK too, but trying to ram your own sense of morals down others throats well that's just wrong any way you look at it. Man there are some real wrongs in this world that need champions go find a real wrong to right.
Randy

Jeff_Favelle

05-06-05, 12:39 AM

One thing that gets me is that we are talking about Pythons here the SUB Species Python

Explain that sentence please. Python is NOT a subspecies. Its a GENUS in a sub-FAMILY (Pythoninae). I think that's what Gregg is trying to get at. For God's sake someone, give him a real argument with your facts STRAIGHT! That's all he wants! Half the posts have either been about how Gregg delivered his material wrong (boo hoo) and the other have has been like the sentence I just provided.

I'm not on any side. That is, I wouldn't voice my opinion on someone else's thread where they are clearly proud of their accomplishment. But I do like a good debate, so will someone hurry up and give Gregg a run for his money. Isbell, come back!!!!!!!!!!! ;)

Man there are some real wrongs in this world that need champions go find a real wrong to right.

This is a snake forum. We talk about snakes here. No World Wars are ended at ssnakess.com.

ravensgait

05-06-05, 01:13 AM

Oh give me a break Jeff it's after one AM I've been up since 4:30 yesterday morning, i'm on foal watch, dang mare will wait till i have to go pee and drop it lol I'm surprised i spelled most the words right.

OK now before i run to the john lol I'll pick one thing Hybrid vigor, Greg said nope no such thing . Well i could type my fingers off but I will just use an example a simple one dogs we all know a little about dogs. years ago Dalmatians were in real trouble they were having hearing problems IE deaf and well a whole slough of other genetic thingies going wrong. Well breeders wanted to solve or at least improve some of the problems so they came up with an idea to breed Pointers into their breed and breed back to over generations get pure Dals again. AKC signed on and bingo the first litters were a success stronger healthier dogs but other breeders got upset and pressured AKC to pull it's approval which it did. The simple point is that the pups were stronger faster opps Old TV show. anyway if someone wants they can do a search and get the info on this just one simple example of Hybrid vigor and there are oh so many other examples out there. OK i'm out of here, stupid mare is just looking at the camera like she's saying Ha Ha I'm keeping your A@@ awake I'll wait till 5 am to do this. By the way the male in 101 Dalmatians was a cross AHHHH..Randy

PS Jeff where is this science greg supposedly used that we should be rebutting?????????????????????????????????????

Gregg M

05-06-05, 03:06 AM

Originally posted by ravensgait
OK now before i run to the john lol I'll pick one thing Hybrid vigor, Greg said nope no such thing . Well i could type my fingers off but I will just use an example a simple one dogs we all know a little about dogs. years ago Dalmatians were in real trouble they were having hearing problems IE deaf and well a whole slough of other genetic thingies going wrong. Well breeders wanted to solve or at least improve some of the problems so they came up with an idea to breed Pointers into their breed and breed back to over generations get pure Dals again. AKC signed on and bingo the first litters were a success stronger healthier dogs but other breeders got upset and pressured AKC to pull it's approval which it did. The simple point is that the pups were stronger faster opps Old TV show.

Umm yeah nice try but dogs are all the same species so that is a very poor example of hybrid vigor...... That is an example of outcrossing bloodlines within the SAME SPECIES......I need something better than that........ Not trying to belittle you but there was very little thought in this post and nothing leaning towards hybrids..... I almost feel bad that you typed all of that, way off topic info..... But not really.....

Like I said, pick up a book other than "reptiles for dummies" and you might find some real info...... Do I have to do all the work here for you???? Most of my info is not on the net..... It comes from actual text in biology books..... Sorry if I do not feel like writing 5 pages worth of info that will clearly go way over your heads.... I will try to shorten it and put it into terms you might understand when I have a chance..... I will post a new topic on it for all to read.......

greenman1867

05-06-05, 05:13 AM

Originally posted by Gregg M
Soap box??? Is that what you call it when someone can actually back up an objecting (different than yours) stance

Its also funny how all of a sudden certain individuals want to drop out and say this is going no where...... I guess that is what some do when there is no longer just one person challenging their unbacked opinion.....

I think maybe you should go back and re-read everyone of my posts. I never said which side of the Hybrid fence I am sitting. I don't really care what your opinion is, or anyone else's. I am more of a Pro Choice kind of guy. I just don't like your superiority complex.

I choose to stop this foolishness because obviously your ego won't let you. Either that or you like to pick fights where you never actually have to look the other person in the eye.

Feel free to rant and rave, every post you prove my argument more and more.

greenman1867

05-06-05, 05:56 AM

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
For God's sake someone, give him a real argument with your facts STRAIGHT!.

I'm not on any side. That is, I wouldn't voice my opinion on someone else's thread where they are clearly proud of their accomplishment.

See, I am of the same opinion as you Jeff, I am not on any side really. I do not have a list of degree's and accomplishments to attach to my name. None herp related anyways. I have no facts regarding Hybrids to get straight. I have however been a Man for 34 years and know how much other men and women like having someone try to force their opinions and ideologies on them.

I realized a couple post's ago this was going nowhere as not a soul here actually has the proof one way or another, this is all opinion. So, once again that's it for me.

I am sure Gregg will come back and accuse me of running and try to egg me on some more, however I don't feel there is any reason to carry this out any further. We are arguing to totally different points.

Gregg thinks hybrids should all die violent deaths to Cobras and such, and I think Gregg has several issues he needs to deal with that regarding how he interacts with people and express's his views.

M_surinamensis

05-06-05, 06:00 AM

And another day goes by without an answer about HOW MANY OF THESE DAMN THINGS ARE STILL ALIVE...

Invictus

05-06-05, 07:01 AM

You want science Gregg? FINE. Jungle corns have been bred for 20+ years and have yet to show any signs of genetic weakness. Henry's Blood python / borneo python crosses reproduce just fine and are actually quite lovely. Sincorns (corn x sinaloan milk) have been proven to show no such genetic weaknesses either. So get off your pompous high horse, because you are attempting to "prove" that all hybrids are wrong, and I just proved in three examples that it is YOU who is wrong here. Now go cry yourself to sleep, I know being proven wrong is tough for you egotists to take.

RB420

05-06-05, 07:21 AM

cant we all just agree to disagree :)

Gregg M

05-06-05, 08:43 AM

Originally posted by Invictus
You want science Gregg? FINE. Jungle corns have been bred for 20+ years and have yet to show any signs of genetic weakness. Henry's Blood python / borneo python crosses reproduce just fine and are actually quite lovely. Sincorns (corn x sinaloan milk) have been proven to show no such genetic weaknesses either. So get off your pompous high horse, because you are attempting to "prove" that all hybrids are wrong, and I just proved in three examples that it is YOU who is wrong here. Now go cry yourself to sleep, I know being proven wrong is tough for you egotists to take.

Where is the science in that statement???? That is just your take on the situation...... Besides, look at the eyes on those "jungle corns"..... They look alittle bugged out to me.....LOL..... Another thing, I never said they all dont work....... I am saying that just because a few might have slipped through some genetic crack, it does not make it right....... Honestly, do you think for a second, if a king and corn met in the wild, they would breed??? LOL...... Answer that question and be honest...... Do you think that two animals from two different land masses whould ever breed in the wild???? I have not cried my self to sleep in like 25 years and your pathetic attempt to "prove me wrong", will not have me start here......LOL....... I actually had a very good sleep.....LOL.... You did not prove anything...... All you proved was your ignorance and your unableness to put solid scientific info on the plate when it was called for.......

So now even my high horse is pompous??? LOL..... Instead of calling me names and telling me I am on a "high horse", try getting up to the plate with a good, old fashioned, wooden bat, not the wiffel ball bat you are all swinging around at me.....LOL......

So I ask again, give me something that proves that hybrids are good on a biologic level and that they are good for the captive bloodlines.....

Hybrid vigor..... LOL..... That is a breeders way of trying to justify their god complex......

I am far from an egotisic..... Give me an example of me being that way....... How am I pompous???? Because I can back up my claim with SCIENTIFIC STUDY and none of you pro hybid people can??? Some of you are even having trouble with what is a species and subspecies and what animals are the same species......LOL..... How can one not laugh at that????

I am also with Seamus on this issue of these hybrid producers not answering a pretty simple question...... How many are still alive????

Just think of the physical and mental being of this cross in this thread...... One species has heat pits and the other does not...... They are from two different environments....... They are as different from eachother as they both are to a retic.....

Invictus, I think you need to see your way out of this because you can not bring anything to the table but other peoples opinions...... Plus your lack of reptilian experiance is very apparent...... Quit while you still can.....

Invictus

05-06-05, 08:56 AM

Originally posted by Gregg M
[B]Where is the science in that statement???? That is just your take on the situation......

Oh, so you have FACTS, and all I have is a take on the situation? Greg, you're so full of crap, I'm surprised your neighbors don't complain about the smell. You wanted an example of you being pompous? There it is!

Besides, look at the eyes on those "jungle corns"..... They look alittle bugged out to me.....

Another shining example of YOU not knowing what the hell you are talking about. I have never seen bugged out eyes on a jungle corn.

Invictus, I think you need to see your way out of this because you can not bring anything to the table but other peoples opinions...... Plus your lack of reptilian experiance is very apparent...... Quit while you still can.....

Other peoples' opinions??? Greg, you have got to be the biggest moron on this board. My opinions are my own, and just because they are not good enough for you does not mean that I am not educated enough to form an opinion on the subject. As for my "lack of reptilian experience", hmmmm.... 2 years in the hobby, but countless years of research, and experience working with over 100 species of reptiles (probably well over 300 individual specimens), plus being one of a small group of people who ship reptiles nationally, and soon internationally. Yeah, you're right Greg, I'm inexperienced. You're just proving the rest of us more and more right with your pompous attitude, and you're looking like more of an idiot and less of an "educated" man with every post. By all means, keep posting.

Other peoples' opinions, lol... you're a riot, man.

Yasser

05-06-05, 09:01 AM

Damn, you can't stop can you? Chop, chop, chop. Ya gotta cut down all the trees around you so you can be the tallest huh? Well, one day, you are going to be the ONLY tree around and you'll be a very sad man.
You keep bringing up this "scientific study" but you have yet to bring any of it to the table.
To answer Seamus and you, my hybrids are doing quite well. Most snakes hybrids have proven themselves to be just as healthy as any other "pure" species if not even moreso (but I understand you don't like to hear that part).

The fact that you cannot make a single post without cutting someone down for their beliefs tells me quite well what kind of person you are. A person I choose not to have an intellectual conversation with about hybrids. I won't waste any more of my time here. You can return to your territorial pissing. I won't try to take your fire hydrant away from you anymore.

-Yasser

JDouglas

05-06-05, 09:13 AM

Well said Yasser. This guy is all talk with no substance. Many crosses do quite well, for example, charpondros, king/corns, milk/corns, jungle/diamonds, bateaters, blood/balls, etc. They are all healthy. This one sentence is more scientific proof than the pages of crap Greg has spewed forth so I am not wasting anymore of my time with this thread either.

Invictus

05-06-05, 09:19 AM

I'm going to share some wisdom I learned a while ago:

Always consider the source - what do you get from an a**hole besides sh*t and hot air?

I've had my fill of this debate too. Yasser, great post. I loved your tree analogy. :D

LdyDrgn

05-06-05, 09:37 AM

The only bug-eyed snakes I've ever seen were products of too many generations of inbreeding: Leucistic TX rats, bci, Rainbow boas.... None of them were hybrids. *shrug*

I'm not on any side, either.

Gregg M

05-06-05, 09:44 AM

Hmmmm So now I am an *******??? And you are talking about me being the one to call names and so on..... Show me an example of where I spacificly called anyone a name???? All I am doing is calling you out on the BS that hybrids are actually good for the animal and the hobby..... I want facts, not opinions from people that have been doing this for a couple of years...... Yeah, I am pompous because I have an education geared towards the animals we are talking about and can prove my case with study...... Like I have already said twice, do the research yourself and you might find the info.....

I need to do the work for you???? You are all big boys...... It is funny how you all back out without giving any facts..... Just all opinions about me and opinions about hybrids..... No factual info.......

2 years in the hobby and you know all there is to know.....LOL..... My 10 year old nephew has more experiance in the hobby than you do.....LOL..... Now that is funny.....

Jeff_Favelle

05-06-05, 11:00 AM

No surprise that a ssnakess thread would ultimately resort to name calling. Its SNAKES people. Get a grip.

Foal watch? That's awesome man! Do you ever have to intervene? What if the Mom horse got mad and kicked back or something? Do they let you touch the baby? That would be a cool thing to see.

tHeGiNo

05-06-05, 11:36 AM

No surprise that a ssnakess thread would ultimately resort to name calling. Its SNAKES people. Get a grip.

No kidding. Try to keep a limit to the name calling. Infact, avoid it all together, is it really necessary? Science and our understanding of certain concepts does not progress from calling eachother morons and *** holes. Its an informative debate, state your information, your opinion and your claims and let that be it. Why take it to a personal level? We are here to learn from eachother, not to belittle one another based on differences in opinion.

ravensgait

05-06-05, 12:26 PM

Jeff after a couple hours of sleep I'm sort of awake lol well she did the deed , had a nice little colt. Most mares are pretty good about it and don't mind you being there. Yeah I've had to stick my arms in places I don't want to think about lol on horses and cows. usually don't worry to much about them but this mare had a few problems last time so we wanted to keep an eye on her. Everything went fine this time she spit the little sucker out and he was up and moving rather quickly. Had a mare years ago that got so excited about her first foal that she started running around him in the stall and stepped on his ear cliping the tip off. He was fine just lost a inch or so. So much fun staying up so long the wife is in foal lol so it left me to sit there trying to stay awake.

Was just looking at my post from last night lol did I write that!! lol...

Simon

05-06-05, 01:38 PM

Wow
Cute little guys
Congrats on the hatchlings.
Hope that they'll all do well for you.

Not going to go into the hybrid thing.
Just as long as you tell people that they're hybrid when you sell them out (if you even sell them out)

Let the 'buyer' be the one to make up his/her mind in the hybrid debate and hopefully all 'buyers' are responsible enough to mark down whatever they breed that the results are hybrids too~

Mugwump

05-06-05, 01:48 PM

( This post is LLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNGGGGGG)

As I see it, several issues are at play here (keep in mind that I know next to nothing about biology...apologies if I misuse scientific terms):

Gregg's point of view, stated somewhat abrasively at times, is that hybridization of species whose territorial ranges do not overlap is morally inexcusable if it is done in a spirit of experimentation without any specific scientific goals. I guess this could be termed, "tinkering," and might be motivated by pure curiosity: the "hey, I wonder if a woma and a carpet would produce offspring?" sort of thing.

I think in this regard, he is not altogether off-base. Any discussion of morality must factor in some pragmatic, even utilitarian considerations. There might arise some incidental scientific insight into herpetology as an unintended result of NERD's "tinkering," but would such slight broadening of our understanding of snakes in general be enough to justify the death/suffering of the individual animals involved? As far as I can see, there is not much clear-cut, compelling evidence that hybridization of disparate species necessarily results in deformed animals with a higher likelihood of dying prematurely, just as there is nothing particularly clear-cut to support the conclusion that these offspring will be totally free of genetic problems. Again, I don't know much about the biology at work in this discussion, but it would seem that sometimes hybridization causes problems, sometimes not. But do the ideal ends (perfectly healthy offspring) outweigh the worst-case scenario means (experimenting over generations with species, perhaps causing them harm or killing them in the process)?

Thinking this over, I believe my answer would be no--doing so is like a program of eugenics, and that has a nasty resonance for me. The potential benefit of "tinkering," as someone mentioned earlier, is keeping herpetoculture fresh by adding something new and interesting into the mix, but I believe that there are enough species out there to fulfill peoples' desire for the next, new interesting thing for a lifetime without having to resort to hybridization.

I suppose an argument could be made that people have been selectively breeding all kinds of organisms over the entirety of human history, and that, indeed, interdependent evolution, whereby one species' changing needs produce a knock-on change in another species, is an unassailable constant of nature's design. But does precedent justify the perpetuation of a potentially harmful practice, morally speaking? Again, if the explicit aim of the practice is to deepen our understanding of the world, then, imho, yes. If it is merely to satisfy our curiosity, then no.

The problem I have with this debate is that my heart is in conflict with my head. I don't dispute the fact that these hybrids are extremely cool, some of them even awe-inspiring. I nearly went ape**** when I first saw a carpondro. My gut reaction is to love these things and encourage everyone to continue pushing the limits. But when I organize my thoughts into a moral argument, my head tells me that hybridization isn't justifiable on the grounds that it is merely _probably_ not going to hurt the animals. To cause suffering needlessly, even if unintentionally, is something that I think should be avoided wherever possible.

Please don't confuse my ramblings with PETA-style b.s. I love a nice rare steak and, if in the process of figuring out how to cure cancer, medical researchers have to kill a few rats or monkeys, it's a shame, but I'm all for it.

So where do I stand in the end? Well, I certainly don't feel as strongly as Gregg, but it seems that this debate boils down to something like this: "hybridization is neither clearly good, nor clearly bad," but since lives of animals are hanging in the balance, I think it makes more sense to err on the side of resisting the curiosity to mix species.

On the other hand, people are going to continue doing whatever the hell they want to do.

Just had some time and thought I would dip my oar into the waters,

Marc

p.s. It occurs to me that I never mentioned on what I was basing the assumption that hybridization has the potential to harm offspring. I was extrapolating from mules, which are sterile, and some very inbred breeds of dog which are anatomically so screwed up that they endure a great deal of pain throughout their lives. I'm not sure if these examples apply to reptiles in any way, but, well, they seemed relevant to this layman.

tHeGiNo

05-06-05, 01:51 PM

Great post Marc.

ravensgait

05-06-05, 03:02 PM

Nice post Marc your opinion and why you hold it was well stated. The only thing I can disagree with you on is the last paragraph, IE Inbreeding causeing messed up breeds of dogs. Well not to get into a long discussion but Inbreeding didn't cause anything. Inbreeding can quickly bring out or show problems as well as strengths in a breed or line but didn't put them there. Inbreeding is a very useful tool but like all tools use it wrong and you can have a mess.
Randy

Jeff_Favelle

05-06-05, 07:14 PM

ravensgait, no pictures???!! Obviously the baby was healthy and all that. Good to hear!

Man, horses sound like a lot of work! Buddy of mine from high school went to be a rancher in the interior of BC. Even went to school for it in the US. He's always got crazy stories. I think everyone should spend SOME time on a farm or in farm life. City folk have it toooo easy, know what I mean?

Cheers bro.

Gino, thanks for agreeing. I just wish this wasn't the case. Now you see how road rage and all that jazz gets out of hand. People get so frickin' worked up. ARen't there pharmacuticals out there now that stop that sort of behaviour? LOL!

I third Marc's post. Now THAT was well stated.

greenman1867

05-06-05, 08:43 PM

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
ARen't there pharmacuticals out there now that stop that sort of behaviour? LOL!

B.C. Bud :D

RB420

05-06-05, 09:40 PM

Originally posted by Invictus
....and even less reasons to put 2 snakes from 2 separate corners of the globe together for any period of time.

not from this thread, but you said it. yet you argue for hybridization. Hmmmmm

Jeff_Favelle

05-06-05, 11:23 PM

LOL Greenman!!!!!!!!!!!

Gregg M

05-07-05, 06:17 AM

Originally posted by montie420
not from this thread, but you said it. yet you argue for hybridization. Hmmmmm

Montie, that was some good detective work....LOL.... This is what I am talking about....

So please Invictus, explain..... Did you deside to get into this dissagreement just to talk from your behind???? I guess you had to jump on the side where there were a few people ganging up on one person......

Or are you just so inexperianced, that you can not form your own veiw and back it up, so you just go with the "flow"?????

It is pretty sad though, either way you look at it.......

Atleast I stick to what I say...... Talk about having your head up your rear....... LOL

Now you can go cry yourself to sleep because you were found out to be the fake that you realy are.....

Next time you should try to be a leader and not a follower.......

Hybrids are known for.....

Low fertility...... FACT

Low hatch/birth rate...... FACT

Low % make it through the first year...... FACT

Muscle and bone structure deformities....... FACT

Internal organ deformities and failure........ FACT

Misplacement of internal organs and other soft tissues..... FACT

Brain damage and other neurological problems...... FACT

If you look at some hybrids, you can see problems right off the bat....... Bugged out eyes, misshapen heads, and even scale deformities...... If that is going on, on the outside, just imagine what is going on that you cant see......

jazzmachine

05-07-05, 10:22 AM

Alright, well I know i'm starting in on this one pretty late. But I just want to ask if you can provide a link or post some documentation as to all these facts you just stated. Personally, I think those animals are outstanding looking. Whether it's right or wrong, that is everybody's opinion. I just want to see all this proof, and than be able to see where you are coming from in regards to these claims. Thanks, and don't mean to stir the pot or anything.

Hybrids are known for.....

Low fertility...... FACT

Low hatch/birth rate...... FACT

Low % make it through the first year...... FACT

Muscle and bone structure deformities....... FACT

Internal organ deformities and failure........ FACT

Misplacement of internal organs and other soft tissues..... FACT

Brain damage and other neurological problems...... FACT

If you look at some hybrids, you can see problems right off the bat....... Bugged out eyes, misshapen heads, and even scale deformities...... If that is going on, on the outside, just imagine what is going on that you cant see...... [/B][/QUOTE]

M_surinamensis

05-07-05, 10:48 AM

I missed a couple pages... so I'm gonna clarify something I asked for...

I want to know, specifically, the number of these carpet x womas that are still alive. Being the first such pairing that I know of, they represent the entire statistical field for the cross and a number here would be easier to look at than numbers with some of the crosses that are more widespread and subject to conjecture.

Few things that also need to be cleared up a bit... So far, every successfully hybridized snake mix is either relatively new... or has been shown to be fertile with other identical hybrids, back to either parent species and even on occassion to an entirely new third species.

The widespread creation of many of these hybrids is comparatively recent and frankly... I don't think anyone ANYONE has sufficiently exhaustive data to start talking about quality of life long term or resulting average lifespans. We can talk about hatch rates and neonate mortality rates with specific clutches used as examples or in generalities but nobody can really say yet just how these animals are going to do long term as indivduals. Can most the colubrid mixes and a few of the more established boid crosses live at least long enough to propogate? Sure. Not quite the same thing as long term stable good health though.

In my personal experience... certain crosses are more prone to overt physical deformities than others but I really can't call my experience with these hybrid snakes really all encompassing. I've encountered maybe a few thousand over the years, some for longer periods of time than others but it's really not enough and the numbers aren't specific enough to say one way or the other that hybrids (on the whole) are or are not inclined towards health problems and physical deffects. Neither can anyone else though.

These two things are actually arguments against the hybridization though... The tendency to show fertility as hybrids IS a cause for concern with regards to the purity of the captive population. Pure forms will probably be avaliable (at least for the remainder of my life) as pure forms... but the way the pet industry works; the majority of animals bought and sold don't have really specific origins that the end consumer is made aware of. The creamcicles are an easy example, although I strongly suspect there are others which simply aren't as obvious... If a random consumer purchases animals from a random vendor and allows them to copulate... with cornsnakes the result is often this mish-mash of recessive genetic traits. Creamcicles will crop up about as often as other "morphs" (with the possible exceptions of amel and anery, as these are the basis for many of the designer morphs and the hets and possible hets are EVERYWHERE) which indicates that there is emoryi blood in the stock the animals came from... and the key piece here is that the parent animals are often never represented as being anything other than normal cornsnakes. The color and pattern is often represented merely as being another recessive trait- mostly through innocent naievity on the part of the dealer.

I don't ever want to find myself in a situation where I have to look specifically for pure animals or those with a well recorded lineage back to collection just to ensure I don't own something unnatural. I do not think it's an unreasonable thing to desire and hybrids very clearly place it in danger.

I'm going to now give a sort of example which may initially seem off topic... but it's related. Ever see what happens when mixing multiple subspecies of say... boa constrictor? The wild populations all have some pretty clear cut scale counts (within a narrow range anyway) and these counts are about the best way of identifying an animal of unknown origins. If you cross two subspecies... there are multiple types of scale counts which may result. You might take the scale count from the mother OR the father... the result may be mixed, within the ranges of the two parent subspecies and essentially averaged out... or there exists a very real possibility for the scale counts to simply be completely new and different, including outside of the ranges the parents would normal express.

And that's with animals of the same species... you take animals from different species, each with their own specialized adaptations to their microhabitat and their behavioral patterns and instinctive responses... and cross them. They might tend to take after one parent species or the other (but which one? Quick, the husbandry depends on it) or something in between... or one of those entirely new sets. Entire traits may be absent depending on which genes from which parent end up expressing a dominance. Heck, conflicting traits can be expressed that represent a very clear health danger if a certain trait is controlled at different locci from the two parent species. As an example... some carpondros (since they were brought up) have the highly specialized and somewhat delicate labial pits of a GTP... and the incination to dig with their faces of a carpet. The result... well, it's definitely not positive. How about things like say... blood x balls. What humidity should they be kept at? How about if different organs take after different parent species? You could get lungs that only operate efficiently when dry and scales that require a high humidity. Or vise versa.

There are also so many potentially hidden traits that we really can barely begin to identify as a specific without a fairly exhaustive dissection of the animal. Which makes it's status as a pet questionable at best. Every single tiny little aspect of a reptile, from it's physical makeup and physiology to it's metabolic requirements and instinctive behaviors is a result of genetics. It's all predetermined- within a very narrow range when coupling animals from the same species... within a rather broader one if the natural forms are ignored.

Put simply... there are a lot of unknowns. Countless IMPORTANT unknowns with these hybrids and each individual animal is a new genetic grab bag of potential tendencies and problems. Since the animals are a risk to both themselves and larger populations and the benefits are minimal (Oooh, a differently colored twice as expensive pet) I really can't reconcile the idea of hybrid creation with anything ethical or moral in the least... and when it comes to ethics, I'm generally pretty open to the idea of subjective interpretation. If the only potential effect was the animals themselves, if they were sterile the way many (not all if i remember right) mules are I'd have less of a problem. My objections would be minimal since it'd be the fates of individual animals in the hands of their individual owners. Since they're potentially able to affect an entire captive gene pool (and wild ones aren't impossible either- florida style) the risk simply isn't worth the reward.

ravensgait

05-07-05, 10:54 AM

jazz if you haven't figured it out yet Greg doesn't have any facts. The only facts that he has provided are that he doesn't know squat about it. He just thinks it's wrong wrong wrong. We could get the top experts in the world on here giving him facts and he still would shout wrong wrong wrong. it's wrong because Greg thinks it's wrong. I'm surprised he didn't take my inbreeding bait :)

Jeff took pictures of the little dude today if you want I'll email you one. He's doing great already driving his mom crazy. Snakes are a lot easier to keep that's for sure, don't require near the space, don't have to be fed twice a day and sure as heck don't step on you. The really shocking thing is that we have almost half as many horses as snakes and we have a number of snakes lol.. Randy

RB420

05-07-05, 11:23 AM

Very well put Seamus. Its a shame more people don't take the time and effort to think about the animals in question. Sure they may look healthy on the outside but these animals might be living their lives in agony because of this hybridization. So why not stop thinking about ourselves, how much money we can make of of the snakes, and how we think they look cool. think about the animals themselves.

Gregg M

05-07-05, 01:59 PM

Originally posted by ravensgait
jazz if you haven't figured it out yet Greg doesn't have any facts. The only facts that he has provided are that he doesn't know squat about it. He just thinks it's wrong wrong wrong. We could get the top experts in the world on here giving him facts and he still would shout wrong wrong wrong. it's wrong because Greg thinks it's wrong. I'm surprised he didn't take my inbreeding bait :)

I did not take your inbreeding bait because your posts have nothing to them..... Its like trying to explain this to a preschool kid.... I get pretty much the same result..... Everyone knows how I feel about the subject, so there is no reason for YOU to repeat my statements or objections.....

Give me 1 reason to believe that hybrids are ok and I can give you 20 reasons why it is not ok......

Seamus and myself have pointed out exactly what is wrong and I am sure we have left out atleast a handful..... You are still either too blind, too stupid, or too caught up in what I will type next, to see it...... Which one is it????

I gave you my stance on hybrids and why I and MANY others feel it is not good...... Not one of the people bashing me can give a reason why it is good....... I am not talking about coloration and pattern and that BS hybrid vigor.....LOL...... Tell me how hybrids are a benefit to nature and our captive populations......

All I have gotten so far is...........

#1 I am a pompous a$$

#2 I am an A-hole

#3 Hybrid vigor BS

#4 A sorry attempt to explain hybrid vigor using animals within the same species....LOL

#5 I have an ego problem..... Anyone can tell you different.....

#6 I have no facts

And

#7 My way of talking to people is wrong

Is that all you have for your pro hybrid side????

PATHETIC......

ravensgait

05-07-05, 06:39 PM

Hybrid Vigor or Heterosis,
Increase in such characteristics as size, growth rate, fertility, and yield of a hybrid organism over those of its parents.
Or hybrid vigor Plant and animal breeders exploit heterosis by mating two different purebred lines that have desirable traits. The first-generation offspring generally show, in greater measure, the desired characteristics of both parents.

This is just a simple explanation or definition of Hybrid vigor. Research has shown that in lower organisms and in many higher organisms such as mammals that hybridization leads to hybrid vigor or Heterosis in the get or offspring. There have been some problems with the crossing of some higher animals, Tigers/Lions as an example. Some breedings between these two big cats have produced young with a number of health problems where other breedings have produced animals that showed classic Heterosis. The reason for the difference is not understood as their has been little research done on the cross, their is some speculation that the problem may be that the parents of some of these crosses had health and genetic problems which contributed to the health problems of the get.

In lower animals such as fish, reptiles ETC the studies I saw(did a simple on line search) found very few problems with the offspring of these hybrids. Some of these hybrids were produced in the laboratory as there was no possibility of a natural breeding. It seems that there has been quite a bit of research done on the lower animals IE before trying it on the more difficult species.

Someone mentioned the offspring having half this and half that as environmental needs, I'm sure there is that possibility but from what I read it seems that they take the specific needs of one or the other parent in almost all cases. One hybrid I am very familiar with is Wolf hybrids a higher animal hybrid, the biggest difficulty in these hybrids being the digestive tract IE Wolves couldn't survive on dog food(this was a number of years ago not sure how they would do on modern dog foods) Some hybrid whelps did well on dog food others had to have meat and offal in their diets. The problem was seen mostly those with the higher percentage of Wolf. Which when you think about it isn't all that big a deal.

Now this is information I found doing a couple of on line searches heck there are researchers out there who list their email address so you can ask questions. I started the search by going to Britannica Concise Encyclopedia web site and looking for the definition of Hybrid Vigor so if ya really want to know knock yourself out and take a look sure shows how little people like Greg know about this subject.

Someone mentioned that the reason someone would want a hybrid snake is because it's different! gee isn't that a big reason we choose what ever animal we prefer. I like Emeralds, Chondros and Rainbows and yeah I really like the different looking ones High white Emeralds or patternless, High yellow or blue Chondros and really love BRBs with bulls eyes. Seems like most nay sayers here are looking for some reason to knock hybrids without a real reason for doing such IE they just think it's wrong.

Hybrids occur in the wild a somewhat rare and one would think incompatible cross that I have seen is White tail and Mule Deer it happens more commonly these days with the explosion of the White tails range. If you know anything about these two animals they have very different dietary needs yet the crosses seem to do alright. There are many others that occur in the wild gee many species are the mixing of two other species who's range overlapped the offspring were better suited to the habitat in this overlapping area and thus through time we have a new species or subspecies. OK fingers are getting tired. For those who really want to know the facts they are out there and easy to find. Randy

Gregg M

05-07-05, 09:01 PM

Again, there is nothing to suggest "hybid vigor" in snakes..... Infact there is more leaning to the opposite..... So how did you turn a dictionary word into hybrid snakes are superior to purebloods???? I can do the same thing...... I think I have proven I know more on the subject than you would ever care to admit.....

What do I have behind me???? Years of schooling and even more years of keeping and breeding experiance...... I know that you cant learn everything from a book...... That is where my hands on experiance comes in handy...

Its not that I do not know anything on this subject..... Its that MY foundings after YEARS of being in the hobby are different from peoples that have much less experiance.....

So again, what do you have to back your claims, besides a dictionary meaning????

I am not talking about mules or hybrid wolves or plant hybrids or fish...... I am talking about hybrid snakes...... Especially the ones that would never under any circumstance ever breed without man putting a spoon in the pot and mixin stuff up......

Seems as though you like to type up huge paragraphs with no substance......

ravensgait

05-07-05, 09:34 PM

LMAO having a hard time typing after that post Greg LOLOOLOLOL do you bother to read your own drivel??

I even fixed your spelling for you in this quote well most of it.
(Again, there is nothing to suggest "hybrid vigor" in snakes..... In fact there is more learning to the opposite..... So how did you turn a dictionary word into hybrid snakes are superior to pure bloods???? I can do the same thing...... I think I have proven I know more on the subject than you would ever care to admit.....)
Gee sorry Greg but the information out there says your really really wrong OPPS. Gee gave more than one example from my personal experience and dang my experience is with higher life forms which are way more complicated . What I've read these past two day and my experience tell me you Know not of which you speak (or type in this case)Where have you proven anything????

What a Joke tell us oh mighty one just what is all this experience you have with Hybrid snakes? Come on no more of It's wrong it's wrong I SAID it's WRONG lol I did a simple search and found That your are FULL of it and that reply is the best your superior intellect could come up with?? LMAO. One thing I learned long ago is that those who have to say they are more intelligent and have this and that degree usually are well not being very truthful.

You have yet to write one thing to back up any and all claims you continue to make. Keep on a spouting Greg the more your type the more you prove how little you know. Man you make this fun and easy.

Now why don't you do some real research and post some real information. I know you don't want to because if you did you'd either have to post stuff you made up or admit you didn't have a clue about the subject you've been raving on about.

Research is easy now days you just have to type in questions on your computer and low and behold there is information out there to save people such as yourself from ignorance. Give it a try it wont bite you. I'll help you some -there is information out there about the draw backs of crossing some types of animals. Sorry to say snakes were not in that category well I did see something about trying to cross egg layers and well live bearers, didn't read it though. So your up dude lets see if your up to it. still LMAO
Randy

Gregg M

05-07-05, 10:10 PM

Here are 22 references you can check out just on ONE of the many issues involving hybids in "lower life forms"....... Low or no fertility..... I did half the work for you..... Now you do the rest..... Now maybe you will actually learn something......

1 S. C. Bhalla and G. B. Craig, Can. J. Genet. Cytol. 12, 425 (1970) [ISI][Medline] .
2 L. E. Munstermann, in Genetic Maps, S. J. O'Brien, Ed. (Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory Press, Cold Spring Harbor, NY, 1990), pp. 179-183; D. W. Severson, et al., J. Hered. 84, 241 (1993) [ISI][Medline] .
4 See, for instance, T. Tadano, Jpn. J. Genet. 59, 165 (1984) ; T. C. Quinn and G. B. Craig, J. Hered. 62, 3 (1971) [Medline] . A full list of the Aedes species examined is available from the authors.
5 L. Zheng, et al., Science 261, 605 (1993) [ISI][Medline] ; L. Zheng, et al., Genetics 143, 941 (1996) [Abstract/Free Full Text] ; 6 G. C. Lanzaro, et al., J. Hered. 82, 349 (1991) [ISI][Medline] .
7 J. B. S. Haldane, J. Genet. 12, 101 (1922) ; J. Coyne, Nature 355, 511 (1992) [CrossRef][ISI][Medline] .
8 C.-I. Wu and A. W. Davis, Am. Nat. 142, 187 (1993) [CrossRef][ISI]; C.-I. Wu, N. A. Johnson, M. F. Palopoli, Trends Ecol. Evol. 11, 411 (1996) .
9 C. C. Laurie, Genetics 147, 937 (1997) [Free Full Text] .
10 H. J. Muller, Biol. Symp. 6, 71 (1942) .
11 H. A. Orr, Evolution 47, 1606 (1993) [ISI] .
12 M. Turelli and H. A. Orr, Genetics 140, 389 (1995) [Abstract/Free Full Text] ; H. A. Orr and M. Turelli, ibid. 143, 613 (1996) [Free Full Text].
13 H. A. Orr, Nature 361, 532 (1993) [CrossRef][ISI][Medline] .
14 H. Hollocher and C.-I. Wu, Genetics 143, 1243 (1996) [Abstract/Free Full Text] .
15 M. Turelli and D. J. Begun, ibid. 147, 1799 (1997) [Abstract/Free Full Text].
16 H. A. Orr, Gen. Res. 59, 73 (1992) .
17 M. B. Coulthart and R. S. Singh, Mol. Biol. Evol. 5, 182 (1988) [Abstract] .
18 J. R. True, B. S. Weir, C. C. Laurie, Genetics 142, 819 (1996) [Abstract/Free Full Text] .
19 H. A. Orr, Annu. Rev. Ecol. Syst. 28, 195 (1997) [CrossRef][ISI].
We included only hybridizations showing clear evidence of postzygotic isolation. Isolation was classified by the following criteria. Hybrid sterility: Male-affected cases included hybridizations in which (i) F1 hybrid males were completely sterile, whereas F1 hybrid females were fertile, or (ii) F1 male fertility was much lower than F1 female fertility (as seen in crossing tests). The reverse held for female-affected sterility. Both-sexes-affected sterility included cases in which both hybrid males and females (i) were completely sterile; (ii) suffered similar and significant reductions in fertility relative to intraspecific controls; or (iii) had degenerate testes or sperm (or both) and ovaries that precluded crossing tests of fertility (nondegenerate gonads were never used as evidence of fertility, though fully atrophied gonads were assumed to be sterile). Hybrid inviability: Analogous rules were used to classify inviability. To prevent the confounding of hybrid inviability with postmating, prezygotic barriers to fertilization, we only included hybridizations in which eggs were embryonated. Reciprocal species crosses (where available) were scored separately.
J. A. Coyne and H. A. Orr, in Speciation and Its Consequences, D. Otte and J. Endler, Eds. (Sinauer, Sunderland, MA, 1989), pp. 180-207.
20 W. G. Eberhard, Sexual Selection and Animal Genitalia (Harvard Univ. Press, Cambridge, MA, 1985).
The average Aedes hybridization might, by chance, be older than the average Anopheles one. It is difficult to distinguish this possibility from the dominance theory, because the latter also predicts that Aedes will take longer than Anopheles to evolve postzygotic isolation (13).
Aedes routinely shows single-sex effects for hybrid sterility but not for hybrid inviability. This within-genus contrast cannot be explained by the notion that species pairs in one genus are older than those in the other.
21 G. Davidson et al., in Genetics of Insect Vectors of Disease, J. W. Wright and R. Pal, Eds. (Elsevier, New York, 1967), pp. 211-250.
22 J. B. Kitzmiller, G. Frizzi, R. H. Baker, in Genetics of Insect Vectors of Disease, J. W. Wright and R. Pal, Eds. (Elsevier, New York, 1967), pp. 151-210; J. B. Kitzmiller, Adv. Genet. 18, 315 (1975)

P.S. What does my spelling have to do with anything???? Is that you attempt to make me seem less smart???? Or is it because you know your posts have NO SUBSTANCE and you could not back up your view if, well, if you were standing behind it so you figured if you would correct my spelling, it might make your claim valid, somehow........... LOL....

Big_V

05-07-05, 10:57 PM

I do see a one minor problem with your assumptions though Gregg. You say that the cross breeding of such species is useless unless it is for scientific purposes ( not for profit ) but the keeping of the animals in captivity is science at its most basic level. Ecology is still science no matter how you look at it. Science is based on experimentation and that is exactly what this is. Experimentation with animal genetics to see the outcome.
But,
I am going to have to side with Gregg on the hybridization not being good for species that would never cross paths in the wild. Doing such is beyond to scope of real life circumstances. If evolution had meant these species to cross breed it would have happened naturally. I'm fine with tests on transgenic animals, provided the experiments are well thought out and will benefit us. Hybrids are usually less fit, and infertile as a rule if the species have different chromosomes. (<-- FACT)

BUT I do believe that individuals are entitled to breed animals that they keep in the way in which they want. We as consumers are the ones who reserve the rights to purchase such animals, and if one does not believe in such practice should refrain from purchasing and dealing with those individuals. These animals are polluting the captive gene pool and it is our responsiblity as consumers of this industry to curve the standards towards what we believe to be right.
We need to take a step back and refrain from making these designer animals for the sake of profit only. It is the well being of the animals that should be the primary concern, because isnt that the biggest goal in keeping these amazing creatures. Too see them in all their NATURAL BEAUTY. This hybridization should stick to laboratories and to those with credentials to claim facts and statistics, not individuals trying to play god.

This debate should stop all the name calling because it really is not what this site is about and hopefully will not come to this.

ravensgait

05-08-05, 12:29 AM

chromosomes Ah not really the only living creatures with matching chromosomes are identical twins or clones! man if you look at just the differences in men and women it makes you wonder how we breed.

Um Greg you make a good case for Mules but um they tend to be healthier stronger and most would agree smarted as well as longer lived than their parents. A lot of the text you reference Greg is very old and since much of it is about bugs lets take an example the Mayfly an insect that once it reaches its final form or adulthood lives and reproduces in 24 hours and dies. they've done a lot of research on mayflies the main reason being well to put it simply to find the fountain of youth. Well to make a long story short they have through hybridization and other tweaking found they can extend their life span in some case for weeks(this was an old study so who knows what they have done since 94 with these guys.

Now I never said that every hybrid was healthy ETC heck there are plenty of examples of it turning out rather bad. But the research in reptiles Or I should say the research done on reptiles not to distantly related has shown that they are healthy and viable. In many case they are mules but this in no way affects the health of the animal. Greg go find someone who has a few equine Mules and take a look at what is possible and is more the norm.

Compared to other animals there isn't near the research being or having been done in reptiles as has been done in animals more useful to man .. That should change now that they have found a lizard that of all things is being researched to help Alzheimer's. Don't know the details on that one saw something in the news about it this past week.

And Greg the unwillingness or inability to use a simple spell check? well you tell me what that says about you. Hey I know I can't spell for beans , it's why I have spell check so I look a little less like a moron :) Now come on give us some information on hybrid snakes with all these problems you fear. You references above sure didn't.

Like I said anyone wants to know what this is all about do a simple search and you'll see both sides. You can find real information and not have to rely on the truth or lack of it that we post in this thread. Weather the cross that got this discussion going works out time will tell but don't let people who hate just for the sake of hating make up your mind for you as they say don't be a sheep and follow along. go and find out for yourself. As we all know most hate is based on ignorance so make an informed decision and not one made for you by all the people in this thread who together know far less than we really should.

Now for myself still LMAO over Greg's last couple post but in all fairness most my knowledge comes from my experience with the higher hybrids though I have an interest in hybrid reptiles thinking of trying a cross myself, anyway most that I know now comes from my on line research the last couple of days it was easy to find and and there is a lot out there. Going to email a couple of researchers about my idea and get their thoughts on what I'd like to try. I was amazed to find so many willing to share what they know and answer question.
Randy

Gregg M

05-08-05, 07:35 AM

You are the one who is funny..... Here is some more science for you......

Postzygotic Isolating Mechanisms
3 types
Hybrid inviability - embryos die early
Hybrid sterility - adults are somatically vigorous but can not reproduce
Hybrid breakdown - adults are somatically vigorous and can reproduce but future offspring fail to reproduce
Hybrid inviability
Dobzhansky et al. (1977) - Sheep and goat - hybrid embryo dies soon after fertilization
Moore (1949) - Rana frogs and varying degrees of inviability (die at different times after fertilization)
Sonneborn (1900's) - Paramecia hybrids dies soon after conjugation
Hybrid sterility
Dobzhansky et al. (1977) - horse x donkey - mule is sterile, problems occur before meiosis
Karpechenko (1927) - radish x cabbage - sterile offspring, problems during meiosis or tetraploid individuals

that can not back cross

Dobzhansky et al. (1977) - Drosophila
D. pseudoobscura x D. persimilis - hybrid males unable to produce sperm but females are fertile
Hybrid Breakdown
Dobzhansky et al. (1977) - Drosophila
D. pseudoobscura x D. persimilis - hybrid females are fertile but offspring of the F1 generation experience problems
Stephens (1950) - different species of Cotton (Gossypium) experience breakdown

When it comes to this type of info, dates are meaningless..... If you did the same studies today you would get the same results....

ravensgait

05-08-05, 11:26 AM

Greg you remind me of the teacher in the Peanuts cartoon Blah Blah Blah,, Blah Blah. ETC ETC Yep there have been failures but look at all the successes we see many in our every day lives. Now come on where are some studies on snakes we are talking about snakes. LMAO Gee Greg you make this fun. You know there are still people who believe the world is flat! That the Moon walks were staged! Just cuz you want to believe this or that just doesn't make it so.

I like your study on Mules now anyone with half a brain knows a little something about mules and the success story they have been. Take your pick the corn in your cornflakes or in the can you buy, the steak you eat, the cotton in the cloths you wear. I could go on and on with the successes of hybridization, rice, beets ETC ETC ETC ETC. Yep there were failures but ah look at all the successes we see every day.

Greg believe what you want my reason for answering your post was to hopefully get those with a real interest in the subject to do a little research and take your Blah Blah Blah for what it is someone who for no real reason just doesn't like it .
Randy

RB420

05-08-05, 12:24 PM

ravensgait, i understand the point you are making. However, i don't think using corn, rice, beets, and so on as an example is really relevent since most of gregs points where making the point that it could be harmful to the animal in question (at least from my understanding greg)

such as

Low % make it through the first year......

Muscle and bone structure deformities.......

Internal organ deformities and failure........

Misplacement of internal organs and other soft tissues.....

Brain damage and other neurological problems......

im not sure if al these symptoms are as common as some make them out to be, but the fact that they happen is enough for me to beleive that it is unethical for the average snake breeder to attempt hybridization.

However, since you did bring those examples up, they are all ones that have had very great benefits to us as im sure you will agree. What benefit, other than to cure our boredom of the snakes currently available does hybrization of snakes bring? I don't see a single benefit to either the animals in question or ourselves. It is my opinion that if you are soo bored with the current selection of species than you are in this hobbie for the wrong reason. that is just my opinion tho. what benfit does a bateater have over either a burm or a retic. i have tried to search for some and came up empty. same with the carpet and the woma. Of course it would take many generations to stabelize them as a new species and find out the actual benefits. and it is for that reason i am not 100% agianst...only 98%...

i have learned a lot from this thread, from both the people pro and agaisnt hybrids.

ravensgait

05-08-05, 03:12 PM

Montie, What is the reason most people keep the animals they do?

As for deformities the information I found doesn't show a much higher percentage of defects in the reptiles the studies or experiments were conducted on than in pure bred clutches. Though the studies I did see were on closely related animals such as the Woma/Carpet cross. There don't seem to be a whole lot of studies done on reptile hybrids.

It's not like someone here is saying we should cross a Boa to a Python. It's like this all Pythons on a genetic level are pretty much the same. Now as far as making hybrids just for the sake of making them well that is something else. Though you have to admit that there is something to be learned from it.

If you think about it many hybrids we see every day are done for convenience look at your lawn the grass is most likely some kind of hybrid, do you really need that? Corn hybrids to make them taste better, the corn tasted pretty good but such and such hybrid taste better. The GTPs look great and the carpet are pretty but together they look wild! So really what is the difference between a sheep that grows more wool and a prettier snake neither is necessary.

Montie I can respect your view point that well you really don't want one but I do have trouble with people like Greg who dislike the idea for no real reason and spout their view all over the place. When you look at many of the successful hybrids out there the Woma/Carpet seems pretty tame in comparison.
Randy

Dirty

05-08-05, 05:39 PM

Hey Gregg,
I posted this question to you on the bateater thread but i guess u havent seen it so....
Is a Gaboon/Rhino crossed with a puff adder an integrade?

munchy

05-08-05, 06:28 PM

Originally posted by greenman1867
B.C. Bud :D
you know how we get down. :D

Gregg M

05-08-05, 06:46 PM

Dirty, a gaboon X rhino is a natural intergrade..... It happens with so much regularity, that these intergrades might be up for species classification..... Like I said, they are not all bad..... Just the ones made by greedy breeders are bad...... If it happens in the wild, I am cool with it......

Ravensgait, Are you smokin something or do you not know how to read????

I have listed some very real problems with hybrids and so has Seamus and Montie too..... These are the reasons why I do not think hybrids are a good idea...... Those are very good reasons..... You have yet to give a reason as to why they are Ok.....

Also another couple of statements made by you that shows you know absolutly nothing..... Are you ready for these????

#1 Though the studies I did see were on closely related animals such as the Woma/Carpet cross.

They are not closely related......

#2 It's like this all Pythons on a genetic level are pretty much the same.

Wrong again......

#3 So really what is the difference between a sheep that grows more wool and a prettier snake neither is necessary.

A sheep that grows more wool would supply more wool to cloth people..... Hybrid are not prettier snakes..... Nothing is better than a very nice example of a pure species..... Also trying to get "prettier" snakes comes with many risks to the animal and the captive populations.....

#4 As for deformities the information I found doesn't show a much higher percentage of defects in the reptiles the studies or experiments were conducted on than in pure bred clutches.

Where are these socalled "studies"???? LOL

You are the one who is funny or better yet, a joke..... Nothing to back your claims..... I gave you referances and good reasons not to be part of the "hybrid craze"...... You have shown nothing but ignorance......

Dirty

05-08-05, 07:17 PM

I got that part man I was asking about a Gaboon/Rhino crossed with a Puff Adder because I noticed you said you were going to try to produce them. Gaboon/Rhino/Puff...integrade? Any of these been wild caught? Not tryin to bust your balls dude...

RB420

05-08-05, 09:21 PM

in all fairness greg, beauty is in the eye of the beholder (in reference to # 3 in your previous post) But i do agree, that the pure breds are a lot nicer looking in most cases.

But to restate my point Prettier snakes is not really a benficial out come to breeding these hybrids....unless of course you are just trying to make a quick buck ;) and i don't think that is justification for hybrization....sure its a good enough reason for grass randy, who doesn't like a nice lawn :) but not when you are possibly harming animals. just doesn't seem worth it to me.

Gregg M

05-08-05, 09:45 PM

Dirty, I had spoken about the possibility but I never went ahead with the project because of the reasons I stated above..... That would have been crossing the line for sure.....

Montie, you are right, that steatement was opinion only......

ravensgait

05-08-05, 11:19 PM

Greg your statements are just that your opinion only! based on your prejudice not science, nor any experience you have ! not even based on intelligent supposition, would need the first to form the later.

Woma's and Carpets are no more unrelated than say Wolves and Boxers. Man Greg instead of sitting there trying to figure out the spell check do some on line searches. Hey I've already told you how to find the info and guess what you haven't looked! and it's not hard to figure out why you haven't looked.

Now come on Greg we're all still waiting for you to show us that intellect you keep laying claim to.

Montie do you own any Morphs? you didn't answer my question why do you have the animals you have? Could it be because you like the way they look? If you want to really think about it there is no reason for any of us to own the reptiles we do. We have them because we WANT TO simple as that. Have you or Greg ever sold a snake for profit? if so then what would be so different for someone to create a Hybrid, sell it to someone who wants it for what it looks like and whoa make a little money in the process.

Hey I've been involved in breeding animals most my life, Cattle,Horses, Dogs, Birds, Reptiles. man you can see some pretty horrible things in breeding any species of animal puppies born with their insides on the outside and still alive. calves with no legs or parts missing ETC ETC . Montie instead of listening to Greg why don't you do a little research and see just how little the guy knows about this subject the research is out there and pretty easy to find.

The difference between hybrid grass in our yards and hybrid or pure bred snakes in our collections? Well there is no real difference other than we want to have them simple as that.

Greg as for what I'm smoking well a Marlboro at the moment.
Randy

Gregg M

05-09-05, 08:03 AM

Ok Ravensgait, you keep trying to bash my spelling and it is actually quite childish of you...... All you are giving is hybrid breeder info.... No name people who breed...... They do not do scientific studies..... How can you compare hybrd grass to complex reptiles??? LOL...... Also, hybrid wolves have already been proven to have psycological problems.... Ofcorse a breeder will tell you differently.....

Do I sell snakes for profit???? Nope..... I am lucky I break even after buying all the supplies and food needed to keep my animals thriving.....

Got to the venomous forum here and ask anyone about me and what I have done for the venomous snake hobby.....

The majority of my statements are based on real studies...... These studies were not carried out by people for or against hybrids.... They were scientist, not greedy breeders.....

It is quite clear you have VERY limmited experiance with reptiles..... Here is more proof of that......

"Woma's and Carpets are no more unrelated than say Wolves and Boxers."

LOL..... That is just rediculous..... Did you know that Carpets have heat pit organs and Womas do not???? Their genetic make up is VERY different..... They took two totaly separate evolutionary paths a very long time ago.....

Why is it that some people need to take something as perfect as nature and try to make it "better"??? Here is an old saying.....
"If it aint broke, dont fix it....."

Ravengait, I am sure you know alittle about reptiles, but have shown your worthlessness on this subject.....

Something else you have done to prove you are alittle off is, you are trying to sway people to "your side".......

"Montie instead of listening to Greg why don't you do a little research and see just how little the guy knows about this subject the research is out there and pretty easy to find."

First my name is spelled Gregg not Greg..... Second, I am sure Montie has gathered enough info on the subject to make an educated choice...... Obviously distorted patterns and higher chances of deformed snakes does not do it for him.....

I have schooling and experiance with thousands of animals passing through my hands that strengthen my argument.....

You have pro hybrid veiws and lack of experiance for your side.....LOL

ravensgait

05-09-05, 10:02 AM

WOW Gregg(Likes g's so much he used them three times, just figured you were adding one for your user name) I guess by your reasoning Emeralds and Amazons are closer related to Carpets than Woma's !! They have heat pits!

Since you brought up you inability to use a Spell check again, it does say something about you.

Gregg why don't you just say it in plain English, You just don't like Hybrids!

Thousands of animals that pass through your hands and you made enough to support you other animals. Um Gregg if you made enough to buy a single animal to add to your collection and to keep it then you made a profit.

You keep going on and on about this education of yours well come on and show us some education then! I for one have been waiting days now to see it.

You don't want to mess with nature!!! Have you ever bred an animal? If so you messed with nature as I'm sure those two animals were unlikely to meet in the wild if they survived in the wild at all. If you don't want to mess with nature better get rid of all your animals because you sure are messing with NATURE NOW! here's a word for you , Hypocrite look up the meaning . Come on Gregg still waiting on that intellect.
Randy

ackattack

05-09-05, 10:05 AM

If this is not the kettle calling the pot black
I keep Gaboons, Rhinos, Puff Adders and Gaboon/Rhino crosses....
I will never BUY venomoids!!!!!!!
is the gaboon and a rhino not a hybreed snake ???

ravensgait

05-09-05, 10:11 AM

PS Gregg where do you get your info on Wolves from? LOL man you are so full of it, psychological problems!! LOL wolf Shrink mumbo jumbo man you just pull this stuff out of your??? don't you LMAO. Do you bother to research anything you talk about? I have to really wonder.
Randy

Gregg M

05-09-05, 11:30 AM

AckAttack, I explained already that gaboon X rhinos are a natural INTERGRADE!!!! There is a huge difference in somthing that happens in the wild naturally and something that greedy breeders throw together to make "see what comes out" and to make money..... Also, intergrade differ greatly from hybrids..... Just do a dictionary check and you will see how......

Ravensgait,
When did I say this????
"I guess by your reasoning Emeralds and Amazons are closer related to Carpets than Woma's !! They have heat pits!"

How did you get this from my reasoning???

My animals are bought using money I make at my daily job, not from money I recieve from selling offspring from my breeding projects.... This is my hobby, not my job.... I can see why you know as little as you do, because you make alot of assumptions......

My spelling tells you nothing about me or what I know..... I cant be bothered using a spell check...... It is not that important.....

I have said in plain English that I do not like hybrids and I also gave valid reasons why I do not like them...... There is nothing valid about any of your posts..... All you can say is that it is ok because you get "prettier" snakes....... Where is the benifit to hybrids???? Hybrid vigor???? LOL...... Not in reptiles and it is very rare that even natural hybrids are better suited than the pure blood species...... You and your views are a joke...... No substance at all...... You have also not provided any info worth anything..... All you can do is try to make me look less smart by repeating the same statements and cutting down my spelling.....

I gave referances and real issues that involve hybrids.....

So, how do I show you my education anyway??? You are trying to call me out on something that can not be looked at on paper...... Do you want me to post my degree on the forum???? LOL It is not going to happen.....

You have even gone so low as to make fun of the lettering in my name..... PATHETIC!!!!

ravensgait

05-09-05, 12:28 PM

Pathetic , yep that pretty much covers your reasoning.
Can't be bothered with a spell check huh well like I said it tells a lot about you. And it ain't good!

Now come on address my comments about just how your messing with nature and the meaning of the H word. Yep you don't sell snakes or receive compensation for them at all LOLOL.

Gregg come on man put some thought into it. Nothing valid in my post? and here I posted information I easily found on the web. Info you can't be bothered to search for. Maybe instead of making so many post here why don't you do some real research heck I told you how. Then you can come back here and spout some more lol . Well at least maybe then you'd have something NEW to say.

References and real issues lol like your post about the nut case wolves lol Yep could tell by your statement on that , that you had done some real research IE UMMMMMM I know I'll say wolf/dog hybrids are crazy today! yeah that sounds good. Now have to try to think of something for tomorrow ummmmmmmm.

As for your education well you've shown that over and over here! Not ,,,or maybe you have! Come on Gregg this isn't as interesting as it was you just keep saying the same old things over and over. You don't like hybrids, fine. You know very little about them, fine. You keep claiming to be an expert on something that you so obviously know so little about , well that's not fine with me I hate seeing people post BS and misleading information claiming it's fact for others who don't really know one way or the other. That's why I keep posting answers and replies to your BS Gregg. Because so many people see something in writing and assume it must be true.
You have shown yourself to be un-knowledgeable on this subject and a real hypocrite. Now if you want to gather some real information and try to look at it truthfully with out so much Bias then please do. Myself I wouldn't mind a meaningful debate on the subject but this I hate it, I hate it, I hate it just because I hate it BS is really getting old. So please do some research !!!!

I'll make my point again for those reading this thread: don't rely on what myself or Gregg here say as proof one way or the other. Do a little research for yourself and see . You'll be surprised how Hybrids affect your every day lives. They are everywhere, in nature and man made. The simple little Bee's we see every day are responsible for a huge number of natural Hybrids, well unless we want to accuse the bee's of meddling in nature which I guess they are. But then again Bee's are part of nature as are humans.

I'm no strong advocate for Hybrid snakes and do not claim to be an Expert! I'll admit I've been thinking of trying a cross and that I had little direct knowledge about snake hybrids till recently. Though I have done research on them I know I have a lot to learn.
It bothers me seeing BS posted as truth by people like Gregg it is a disservice to anyone who reads threads like this. We see it all the time people who for what ever reason with an unreasonable dislike of something. In this thread I've posted information I have direct knowledge of, I have researched or that I have made what I feel is a reasonable supposition of.
Randy

Gregg M

05-09-05, 01:05 PM

What is so unreasonable about not wanting to pollute captive stock with hybrid blood??? What is so unreasonable about not wanting to make hybrid snakes suffer a bad quality of life brought on by greedy breeders......

Those problems I listed are VERY REAL.....

Also to answer your little bee statement.....LOL..... Yeah um years ago honey producers brough Africanized honey bees into South America to breed with our domestic honey bee so they can produce more honey...... Now look at the problems that caused..... The hybrids got the nasty disposition of the African honey bee and are Killing people here in the states and are taking over our much less aggressive domestic honey bee..... In some parts of the states, our domestic honey bee populations are at very low numbers do to this "wonderful" hybrid...... Yeah that worked out well......LOL

On to the keeping of reptiles as being unnatural.......
Although the snakes are no longer in their natural habitat and natural selection has been brought to a low, captive propogation is not a bad thing......

We as reptile keepers/breeders should be responsible for keeping the blood lines as pure and natural as we can...... This means not crossing blood from totally different species into pure bloodlines...... It is also our responsiblity to breed healthy animals and to BE CERTAIN that the offsping will be healthy and thrive..... This means not taking the chance in crossing two separate species to eachother, increasing the likelyhood of producing deformed animals or animals thay might be suffering a "biological tug- of- war going on inside their mental and physical being.....

Again, screw spell check...... It isnt that important and tells you nothing about me or my knowledge on reptile or this particular subject...... That is just you way of adding to this without knowing what you are talking about.....

You are the one who is inexperianced and still have much to learn on this subject and obviously others involving reptiles.....

Now, instead of making fun of my name and spelling, post something that has some weight to it.....

You are right about one thing..... Wolf hybrids having psycological problems might have been too strong of a choice of words...... They have behavior problems...... Many wolf hybrids also have skin problems, like skin cancers......

Here is alittle more info for ya.....

The concept of hybrid vigor assumes that a crossbred animal (and this term is most often used in discussing dogs) will be healthier than a purebred. In reality, this is often false.

In order to be a hybrid, an animal must be the product of two different species: donkey and a horse, offspring is a mule; lion (m) and a tiger (f), offspring is a liger; tiger (m) and lion (f), offspring is a tigon; wolf and domestic dog, offspring is called a wolf hybrid. Remember high school Biology, animal classification: Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, and Species? Each animal in the crosses mentioned share the same Family (Equus, Felis, Canis) but are different species. The offspring are hybrids. Domestic dogs are the same species familiaris. When you cross breed domestic dogs (Canis familiaris ), you are within the same species; therefore, not creating a hybrid.

Hybrids are not problem free. In Ligers, no fertile male has ever been found and necropsies have proven sterility in them. Other issues in ligers and tigons: ligers may be prone to gigantism and tigons may be prone to dwarfism. Both hybridizations have shown an increase in cancer rates and decrease in lifespan. (Tiger Territory, M. Annabell, 2001). In wolf/dog hybrids, there are often behavioral issues. The domestic dog differs greatly in behavior from a wolf. Dogs were bred to be cooperative with humans while wolves fear humans and try to avoid us. Even domestic Wolves are far different from dog in terms of behavior. Dogs often accept leadership happily while adult wolves will fight for leadership within the pack. The wolf/dog hybrid can be a time bomb temperamentally when they hit full maturity. Wolves also differ from dogs in other ways including: skull structure, nutritional needs, estrus cycles, etc. (Canine Hybrid Issues Surrounding the Wolf Dog , M. Sloan, J. Moore Porter, 2001)

Dirty

05-09-05, 02:20 PM

To me, a sterile hybrid or an animal born with deadly complications is where nature draws the line. It simply doesn't want this animal to procreate. I think that when nature doesn't want an animal to produce, it won't let it. Some hybrids that produce seem to be ok with nature. Gregg, I agree with you that hybrid animals should not be sold as pure bloodlines. But, in the case of N.E.R.D. and other hybrid producers who are responsible enough to sell the snakes as what they are, I'd have to say that I certainly don't agree with NEVER producing ANY hybrids

ravensgait

05-09-05, 02:30 PM

LMAO as usual your facts leave much to be desired the dang Bees escaped from a laboratory LOLOL just like all your facts it might be something you heard at sometime but your memory taints the supposed facts when you post them.

Again don't talk about wolves you know not one thing about them other than they have teeth and hair. Da I've been involved with Wolf hybrids and you sure don't have a clue what your talking about. The problem with the hybrids is the dog side not the wolf. IE In North America there has been no recorded attack on a human by a wolf other than a rabid wolf. The aggression seem in a few hybrids comes from the dog, which creates a problem in that the hybrids are bigger ,stronger, and more intelligent than the dogs who produced them. Heck a wild wolf would sit and watch a human go into its den and take its cubs though it would attack and kill any other animal that went near it's cubs. The reason for old world wolves attacking human is easy, all the battles with dead humans left on the field . Wolves ate the dead and wounded left on the battle field, and well it's not a big leap from there to attack and kill a live easily subdued human is it. I've been around both hybrid wolves and pure wolves so again try not to speak here on subjects you have little or no knowledge of opps well then I guess you wouldn't have posted anything in this thread then.

Umm Gregg Canis and Python think about it daaaaaa

As for your tiger lion comments as I mentioned before some feel the problem may be that the parents of these offspring had health and genetic problems and gee they are mules big surprise there but just how does the inability to reproduce affect their health. Well here's a hybrid that doesn't seem to work very well and there are many others but there are many that succeed. Gee think of all the species we know who were just simple hybrids at one time maybe even humans AHHHHHHHH

No one ever said hybrids are problem free gee wish you could read as well as you rave. Well I could go on rebutting your make believe but why don't we make this simple and you just come out and say I HATE HYBRIDs don't know all that much about hybrid anythings but I HATE THEM. Because that is the reason you keep blathering here you just hate the idea and once you stated your dislike had to try and defend your position though you have done so badly you have given it your all. I'll give you an M for effort.

Randy

RB420

05-09-05, 03:00 PM

Randy i keep snakes because i find them to be interesting creatures. ALL snakes, not just the good looking ones. I hve always felt this way, as far back as the age of seven if a remember correctly. i do not own a colour morph. i have never once sold a snake. :)i spend my hard earned money on snakes and never ask for anything back from them.

i don't use spell check either? what does that say about me? does it make me an idiot or something? please expand on that comment, and tell me what insight that gives you on who i am as a person. People make typos. get over it.

You do make some valid points about the benefits of hybrids in many cases. But none when refering to snakes. Where as Gregg as made many points (whether you agree with them or not) regarding the negative aspects of hybrid in reference to snakes.

Oh and on an off-topic note, but since they were brought up. My Girlfriend hsa purebred artic wolf. She is an amazingly loyal pet. and has never had any problems with being kept in captivity....at least none that i am aware of. and she is currently 13 years old.

Gregg M

05-09-05, 03:33 PM

Originally posted by Dirty
Gregg, I agree with you that hybrid animals should not be sold as pure bloodlines. But, in the case of N.E.R.D. and other hybrid producers who are responsible enough to sell the snakes as what they are, I'd have to say that I certainly don't agree with NEVER producing ANY hybrids

The only problem with that is, that once out of the hands of the original breeder, you do not know who they are going to or what they will be breeding them to...... Lets say all 7 of these hybrids lived and got sold to 7 different breeders..... Lets say all 7 people breed them to either their woma or carpet and got a tone of neonates from them..... Even if 4 out of the 7 represented them as they really are, there are 3 litters of hatchlings that have tainted blood lines that no one knows about..... Do you see how out of control this can get and how quickly it can happen..... Now you have a bunch of snakes out there with questionable blood lines that may have genetic problems down the line.....

The only reason these or any snake hybrid are created, is to make a bunch of quick money......

As for you Ravensgait, I have something lined up for you that will be posted soon enough.... Stay tuned.... LOL

The honey bees where brought here as a hybrid experiment to be better honey producers...... It worked, but look at the problems it has caused..... It does not matter who brought them here.... The fact is that the hybrid did much more harm than good.... Plus the fact they did not escape from a lab....LOL.... They escaped from an apairy......

Apairy: Bee keeping facility...

ravensgait

05-09-05, 05:07 PM

Montie that was a little dig at Gregg , he gets excited and upset and mis spells and runs his words together. If your spelling is awful as some who post on these forums, then yeah I think at the very least it shows laziness not to use a Spell check . Gregg just doesn't have time for one. As for his facts on Hybrid snakes ??? hasn't shown a single one yet his references were to bugs and other plant and animal hybrids. There have been very few studies done on hybrid snakes. Gee maybe NERD will publish something at least they have a lot more experience with them. We own snakes because we want to and if you or someone else wants to own such and such type of snake ! Well you wont find me here saying it should die or be destroyed ETC just because I don't like it. More than one person has said things like that here.

Hey I could care less how you feel about hybrids it's your opinion and your entitled to it, but when someone post that they should be destroyed ETC and that they will have this or that wrong with them , an opinion based on nothing other than the fact they just don't like it. And that others should do as they want them to! Well that I have a problem with as should everyone ,I have no right to tell you what you can have or like neither does anyone else. Gregg wants to make decisions for all based on his prejudice plain and simple.

Just like his current stance on Bees wrong but he'll ride it down because he said it. As for the honey bees in N.A .they have gone into decline and no one is really sure why. had nothing to do with the hybrids that got loose down south as they started to decline before the killer bees got any where near our borders and the Killer bees are still only in the most southern states. So his little story doesn't explain what happened to the Honey bees that live farther north but then again his story is just that a story. Greg do the killer bees eat the other bees? is that why they are in decline? The only facts he gave are that they did purposely make these hybrids. But did not intend for them to get loose.

OH boy Gregg I can hardly wait let me guess it's taking a long time for you to write up this study ??? or still trying to find something to back you up? heck I could do that for ya there are a bunch of studies out there both Pro and Con, ya just have to look for them Gregg I told ya how. click that little icon that says Search and type in what you want to search for. It's real easy and boy there are just pages and pages of info out there.

Gregg M

05-09-05, 05:38 PM

There are not studies that are pro hybrid snakes..... I do however have research info that will contradict your views..... I am in contact with real scientists (yes, they are doctors in their field) that work exclucivly with reptiles including their taxology and genetics..... As soon as I have all the info I need gathered up, I will come back and drop a bomb on ya.....LOL..... I will have email addresses and other contact info for you...... The only info you have is GREEDY BREEDER info..... Ofcorse they are going to tell you that it is fine..... They need to sell their product...... I am done until I gather the REST of the info..... Till then have fun bashing my spelling.....LOL

Jeff_Favelle

05-09-05, 07:36 PM

Not getting into it, but I don't want to see misinformation bandied about:

Woma's and Carpets are no more unrelated than say Wolves and Boxers.

Womas and Carpets are only related to the sub-family level (Pythoninae) and dogs and wolves are related to the GENUS level (Canus). That's a HUGE difference in terms of relation. HUGE.

Carry on.....

Gregg M

05-09-05, 09:34 PM

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
Womas and Carpets are only related to the sub-family level (Pythoninae) and dogs and wolves are related to the GENUS level (Canus). That's a HUGE difference in terms of relation. HUGE.

And I am the one who does not know what he is talking about....LOL..... Good eye Jeff.....

ravensgait

05-09-05, 10:50 PM

OOOPs my bad Jeff was just skimming this article and missed a part ,here take a look www.smuggled.com/hybsna1.htm Interesting stuff about snakes down under ....Lots of info on this and other snake related stuff out there. Been saving some to my computer just in case Greg does finally post some info. OK LOL mostly because it's informative and interesting.

One thing I have seen mentioned in a number of papers and articles is that If the animals can breed naturally that they may not be of a different species. Don't know one way or the other on that but then they do keep renaming snakes all the time and shifting them from this species to that. Womas and Carpets do have some distinct differences. Don't think the Species Sub species arguments will be settled till DNA and like studies are done on them.

Gregg you didn't miss it you didn't have a clue. :)
Randy

ravensgait

05-09-05, 11:08 PM

Here's another link with information and links to more than you probably want to know about the snakes of Australia and surrounding Islands. www.smuggled.com/pytrev1.htm

Randy

Jeff_Favelle

05-10-05, 12:16 AM

Yeah, lots of DNA stuff needs to be done, I agree. Reptiles will be low on the totem pole though, ha ha. Unless they carry a cure for cancer in their blood or sonething crazy like that, know what I mean?

There are other barriers to speciation than F-D up babies and genetics. Pre-zygotic factors are factors that PREVENT the mating of certain species. Yes we can graft a pig's ear on to a mouse, or plant a rat sperm into a dog ovum, but that doesn't make them similar species. There are natural factors that prevent animals from "getting together" in the first place. Hence "pre-zygotic" (before the zygote). Geological barriers, mis-matched chromosomes, size, time of year that the animal breed, diet (cannibalistic snakes eating potential mates), radically different niche within the same geographic area (aquatic vs arboreal) etc etc etc bla bla bla. Those are all roadblocks to prevent dissimilar species from intergrading. I have NO doubt that a common Bci could breed with a Dumeril's. They look the same, Madagascar was obviously once part of South America when the continents were joined, and they are of roughly the same size. I would say that they are possibly more closely related to each other than Carpets are to Womas.

Final note to confuse things even more. The old biological definition of a species was groups of similar inviduals that could reproduce and produce fertile offspring. That was SCIENCE as of 15 years ago. So science isn't always the be-all end-all, but then again, it doesn't claim to be either.

Just some ramblings... carry on. :)

ravensgait

05-10-05, 01:00 AM

Jeff we may get lucky, I mentioned this before, last week there was a news story about finding something beneficial to the treatment or cure of Alzheimer's. I just caught part of it but they seemed pretty excited about whatever it was this lizard had and were going to do further research in other reptiles ETC ETC. gee the little crawlies may get their status upgraded to useful lol

Reading those papers on reptile studies and research you see that there really isn't a right answer to a lot of questions it may be one thing this year and the opposite the next. Like most subjects if you look hard enough you can find something to support your view. Kept coming across Human/reptile hybrid papers,thought they were a joke but kept seeing them so finally looked at a couple . It's really scary at times to see what some people believe. Bet ya didn't know that Bush was a human/reptile hybrid did ya ! would be funny but seems a lot of people believe that BS. Wonder if he was born or hatched? ;)

Jeff as far as this thread goes I see the pros and cons of hybrids ,just really dislike when people get on these forums and preach that they are right and everyone must conform to their views, and the 'death to the hybrid babies' thing rather pissed me off. Here they preach how hybrids suffer etc then say stuff like that! makes me think of the H word .

Hey the colt is doing fine , driving his mom nuts already, he has a twisted sense of humor, he hides from her and waits till she's almost panicked with worry before popping out where she can see him. Gonna be a handful.
Randy

Jeff_Favelle

05-10-05, 01:10 AM

I didn't even know that horses could have personalities! That's hilarious!

Gregg M

05-10-05, 05:55 AM

Originally posted by ravensgait
Here they preach how hybrids suffer etc then say stuff like that! makes me think of the H word .

Waaaa waaaaa waaaa That pissed you off???? I would rather see a quick humane death, than for one hybrid to have to live a crappy life because of greed...... A king cobra would kill it fast and get something out of it...... See, you would be doing a good thing for both animals......

And I did not miss that comment about Carpets not being more unrelated from a woma than a wolf is from a boxer...... I quoted that little statement and corrected it a while ago...... LOL.....

Do you read the posts or just look for spelling errors????

ravensgait

05-10-05, 03:02 PM

Jeff they are not like dogs but they do have personalities and a sense of Humor. One of our Stallions will stop eating if I'm gone more than a few days , guess he misses me. They can get attached just like dogs do, not as smart but fun none the less.
A lot more upkeep than a snake but then you can't ride a snake down to the store and besides women don't often get warm and fuzzy over a snake but most really like horses ;) lol most of them are my wife's!! Randy

M_surinamensis

05-10-05, 03:30 PM

A species is still defined as a NATURALLY interbreeding population of animals. The key part is the natural aspect; while closely related species that have had isolating instincts ******** or even outright abused in captivity may prove to be interfertile, this has NOTHING to do with how they're defined taxonomically.

The people creating hybrids for sale aren't doing a single damn thing for scientific purposes. There are far too many variables and far too many uncontrollable factors to make these filthy abominations "science" and they are absolutely meaningless taxonomically.

Raven... you've been given at least three or four signifigant and well evidenced reasons for the negatives of hybrid creation, haven't done a single damn thing to prove any of them incorrect, argued about something YOU clearly do not understand as taxonomic subjectiveness and the way the designations are assigned is broken down and frankly... come across like kind of a raving idiot.

So "Randy" from Texas... before going any further... I'd like to know what your last name is. 'cause I've got a sneaking suspicion you're well known for being a mouthy dumbass elsewhere and would like to see if I can confirm it.

Edit: The censored word was one synonymous with "inhibited" but apparantly it's been used in the offensive vernacular and ended up on a list someplace.

ravensgait

05-10-05, 04:17 PM

Semanus LAMO , My last name is Mackey. Shouldn't be to hard for someone to know! I use the same name Ravensgait on every forum but I guess you couldn't figure that out.

Careful your prejudices are really showing! Ah another who believes we should all think and do as he wants, well if he does actually think one wonders after reading his post.

Now I really get a kick out people like you LOL I guess you just couldn't figure out my instructions on how to find the info or let me guess you left clicked on the links and they didn't work. Sorry you have so much trouble doing simple task. I think there are classes available that may if you try real hard help you with your problems well some of them anyway.

Gee you add nothing but BS to the thread but then again most of it has been that. Here lets see if you can figure out what animal this is and no it's not a snake.

The simple fact is you moron that your not right, Greggs not right and I'm not right, already said that. Anyway in this case we'll have to wait and see if these Woma/Carpet grow up healthy and can reproduce then they will be a successful inter grade if not then they will just be another hybrid that didn't work. But then you and your b buddy just want them to die die die lol ever wonder how statements like that make you look? Just like Gregg you hate just to hate , in your small little world I guess you feel it makes you something, not sure what it is and really don't want to know.
Randy

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/77580PC.jpg

Jeff_Favelle

05-10-05, 06:17 PM

Coo, pic! That thing looks HUGE!!!!!!!!!

Not to nitpick but:

we'll have to wait and see if these Woma/Carpet grow up healthy and can reproduce then they will be a successful inter grade if not

These won't be intergrades. Intergrades are same species, different sub populations breeding together. (ie. different subspecies breeding together). These aren't the same species. Heck, they aren't even in the same genus!

Carry on. This is the most viewed thread EVER! Helluva advertisement for NERD! LOL! :)

Gregg M

05-10-05, 06:39 PM

Now seamus is a moron and he has nothing to add to this thread???? LOL..... See if you ask anyone arond these forums, about seamus, you will see that he is a very respected member of the reptile keeping community.....

Notice how all of your little buddies just up and left???? Maybe it is because they realize they have not a single leg to stand on when it comes to this topic...... Like I said, the references you provided are from hybrid breeders..... They need to sell their crappy product so you know they will not give you the VERY REAL down sides to the mutt snakes.....

What seamus and I provide is real info from experiance, animals we have seen, and real scientific study......

You are nobody that knows absolutly nothing on this topic and apparently most other topics involving reptiles..... Why dont you go off to one of those horse forums??? I am assuming you know more about horses than you do reptiles.... Stick to what you know...... You dont hear me telling you how to care for horses, right???? Thats because I know as much about horses as you do reptiles..... And that is absolutly nothing.....LOL

Yasser

05-10-05, 07:03 PM

I just stopped by to check on this thread. Still going at it huh, Gregg?Still haven't provided any of that proof huh, Gregg?

The only reason I haven't come back around to this is because it involves you and your offensive, non-scientific demeanor. The name calling and undocumented accusations just got boring.
I now realize you are loving all this attention so therefore I choose not to reward the bad behavior. Just like I do with my children. I am amazed at how quickly this turned into a pissing match. Now you are making assumptions about the education and intellignece of others. What's next? Making fun of folks medical conditions?
You've really stooped. So low I forgot you were there.
So much for an educated argument.

-Yasser

atropabelladona

05-10-05, 07:15 PM

Ok some more reasons not to hybridize.
Genetics code for physical attributes, and among those are digestive and other enzymes, organ location, that kind of thing.

Not to mention, when you hybridize species (like australian pythons) with a limited number of "founder" lines and no possibility to legally add more (wildcaught) bloodlines to the mix, each allele that each snake has is extremely important to the whole population because no other snake may have it.

When you hybridize these animals and don't breed them within their species, you essentially eliminate their alleles from the gene pool in captivity. Add to that, you can never restore them from a hybridized animal without also introducing genes from another species, thus "contaminating the gene pool."

atropabelladona

05-10-05, 07:16 PM

durrrr. Forgot to mention that when you've got conflicting genes from different species about enzyme conformation or organ location, some strange things can happen.

ravensgait

05-10-05, 08:10 PM

Jeff yes , no, maybe, it would seem that some in this field believe or think that if they can breed without using AI ETC. in other words the snakes get it on lol, that they may be more closely related than has been thought. here again DNA testing would provided better answers.

That's PC he's 15.2 hands(4 inches in a hand) A horse of a different color and a strange sense of humor. Champagne and White TWH
Randy

Gregg M

05-10-05, 08:32 PM

Yasser, I have yet to call anyone a name.... Infact a few people feel it is required to call me names...... Read back a few pages..... Yasser, why must you talk from your hind quarters..... Oh wait, I know, you produce hybrids, thats why...... I gave very logical, proven reasons not to produce hybrids, and not one of you, can give a good reason to produce them......

I gave my reasons and all I got in return was that I have an ego, I am an a$$hole, I am a liar, I do not know what I am talking about, I am a moron, People making fun of the spelling of my name, trying to find errors in my spelling, I am funny, I am a joke, I sound like I am from PETA, and so on.....
But in your eyes, I am the one who is stooping low..... That shows everyone exactly where your head is.....

Oh wait how can I forget, we are getting pro hybid views from people who produce them, have next to no experiance with reptiles, cant tell the difference between genus, species, and subspecies...... LOL..... Someone tried to use dog breeds to push their "hybrid vigor" view.....LOL, all breeds of dog are the same species, so it is not an example of hybrids at all....... Now is it????

Oh yeah lets not forget how the Africanized honey bees are a benefit to us.....LOL You have got to be joking me..... Yasser, my friend, you are way out gunned in this debate....... I will tell you how...... The people who are not fine with hybrids are educated, highly experianced snake keepers that know something about taxology, natural history, and the biology of these animals......

Here are the people on your side......
The uneducated and the inexperianced...... You also have people that want a "cool lookin snake, dude"....... Ummmmm Oh yeah the greedy breeders that produce them, and ummmmm, oh yeah, ravensgait and Invictus, who has been in the hobby for two years.......LOL

I will be the first to admit, I am not good with typing words or with words in general, but my education, experiance, and contributions to the keeping of reptiles says everything about me and what I stand for.... Go to any of the forums if you want to see what kind of person I am......

Your stance on hybrids says alot about you and the type of keeper/breeder you are...... An unethical, irresponcible one, at best.......

M_surinamensis

05-10-05, 08:50 PM

So Kara... how many of these are still alive?

Gregg M

05-10-05, 08:56 PM

Seamus, I wonder why you need to keep asking that same question over and over...... LOL Is this the third time with no answer????

ravensgait

05-11-05, 12:24 AM

Ya wonder why people get upset boys ? well here take a look at a few things you've said.

Seamus's first post--Here's hoping that the seven which managed to hatch (a 33% hatch rate should be a strong indicator that this isn't right) have internal deformities that kill 'em off within the next couple weeks.--
Part of Greggs first post--but this is just sickening..... They should be fed to a monitor or king cobra..... Heres to hoping they are all unable to reproduce--
Part of his second post--Like I said, they should be used as feeders..... --

Parts of Seamus's second post-(Kara, I demand you comply with my personal moral views this instant) ----If you *can't* see why it's morally and ethically objectionable... well then I think you're a little on the dim side.--
Parts of Greggs 3rd post--I think alot of people are just too stupid to see the problem with this---I do hope that they are culled somehow--
and Gregg's next post---If that is really what you think than it is obvious you do not know what you are talking about...----Anyone with a half a brain can see this and the other obvious problem that come along with hybrids..... Feeders is what they should be used for......--
And parts from another post of Gregg's---Dirty, this hybrid being wrong is not an opinion...... It is ethicaly, morally, and naturally wrong...... It goes against nature...----The people that created these Frankenstien snakes are def off my list of people to buy from and I will make sure everyone I know (which is quite alot) knows about the questionable antics going on.....---

Yasser weighs in, part of his post---You can justify your beliefs all you want by dragging in YOUR morals and YOUR ethics and YOUR beliefs in what YOU think Mother Nature NEEDS. But don't push that crap on me becasue I have MY own beliefs and morals. This is free society the last time I checked. You fight your "good" fight and I'll fight mine. ---

Seems I'm not the only one who doesn't like little Hitlers telling me what I should think,do, feel or believe.

I'll note that up to this point Gregg and Seamus are the only ones offering insults and belittling other posters.

First negative post in reply to Gregg and Seamus, if you can call it negative.
Mark said---I was going to post again in similar fashion, but its far more entertaining just to read Gregg's posts LMAO Only one I see with a God Complex is him. --

Greenman said-Again, here's a soap box, take it out to the corner and have a blast.--

Don't know that I'd call that negative. then he said this---Ah yes, the personal attacks to prove how obviously superior your mental capacity is. Yes that’s it, keep proving your amazing intellect. Ooohhh Ahhh, so very smart.--
Which is true to a certain extent you do keep mentioning your intellect Gregg and how much you know and telling others how little they know.

Another part of one of Gregg's post, and he wonders why people get upset with him lol up to this point Gregg you are the only one insulting others and calling them names--Anyone have any cheap hybrids for sale???? I have a king cobra that needs to eat.......--

Greenman gave a definition of pompous and As$ and that got you really going Gregg here is part of your next post ---And to tell you the truth, I am not totally against the legislation that has been going on...... It is apparent that not everyone should have the right to work with reptiles....... ---
Bet you never gave it a thought that if they do regulate snakes that HOTs will be first on the list lol

part of the same post---Also, what exactly are you saying greenman???? Be a man and say it out right...... Grow a pair of nutz and stop beating around the bush...... Am I a pompus *** because I am educated or just a bit sharper than yourself????--

I'd say your were being obnoxious ETC. From another of your post Gregg----I think death by king cobra would be much more humane than to let a hybrid live deformed life..... --

Still wanting to kill other peoples animals.

And Gregg said--Why do alot of people breeding reptiles feel the need to alter the natural state of an animal to suite their needs.--

Well we all alter their natural state we keep them Daa.

Well I could keep pasting more of your BS guys but it's like this your both came in insulting and belittling others till they had enough and replied to you in the same manner you were talking to them (us)
You keep on about scientific fact but post nothing other than your own words to substantiate what you say.

Gregg you keep going on about how much you know (and how stupid everyone else here is) and wonder why people reply to you in the same manner in which you speak to them(us)

Seamenus you come after me and wonder why I reply to you the same way?
Um boys go back and read the whole thread and maybe just maybe you'll have a clue why I and others here think your full of it. If you could have been responsible and informative in your responses that would be one thing. But instead you tried to shove your morals and beliefs down everyones throats and insulted anyone who posted a differing opinion than yours.
So keep it up boys keeps me from being too bored.

"Never argue with an Idiot! they will drag you down to their level and beat you with it."

Well I was bored so I argued with the Idiots I guess that makes me just as big a fool as they are. LMAO
Randy
Randy

Jeff_Favelle

05-11-05, 01:23 AM

Part of Greggs first post--but this is just sickening..... They should be fed to a monitor or king cobra.....

Being a "snake guy" I could never do it, but its kind of hypocritical for us to say that its "SICK" to feed a snake to a snake, yet we're ok offing thousands of rodents per year with higher brain functions than most reptiles? Kind of a double standard, don't you think?

But I'm not one to talk. I was up until 3:15am last night and I fed 118 rats and 47 mice. Yikes. That's a LOT of lives. :)

ravensgait

05-11-05, 01:44 AM

Jeff would be one thing if they were his but to say you want to feed someone else animal to yours??? Going a bit far don't ya think???

You get the impression from his writing that if he had them in front of him Gregg would step on them.

Tonights my feeding night, one course meals- Rodent-.
Randy

Gregg M

05-11-05, 03:00 AM

I would not step on them...... I would humanely kill them and use them as feeders...... Trust me, they would not go to waste..... I stated from the begining that they should not suffer but should be used as feeders.....

Also, I never in one post insulted anyone or called anyone a name directly or indirectly......
But a few people here did call me names and made fun of my spelling like a school child, several times......

On to the reptile/hot legislation...... Hots aleady are illegal in my state...... The reason why I am not upset about it, is because I did what was needed to stay a legal keeper in my state....... The laws passed did not affect me...... I did not complain about anything...... I did what I needed to do, to keep, breed, and transport my animals in my state legaly......

I love how you keep talking like you have a clue, when you clearly do not...... You have made many assumptions and sometimes slanderous remarks...... You need to think hard before you open your trap because I dont think you want to make yourself look any more foolish than you do already...... I mean, how many times do you need to be corrected about things????

I wish all states made a permit system for every reptile..... It would keep alot of crap out of the hobby...... It would keep alot of people like you out of the hobby......

Listen, if someone can give me a legit reason to produce hybrid snakes other than "they look nicer" or "they can make me alot of money" I would respect the other view point...... Unfortunately, I have heard all the reasons and not one is legit or shows any benifit to the animals them selves.....

Again someone give me something here besides paragraphs explaining your reasons for not liking me or seamus's veiw on hybrids, or how I am a pompus a$$, or why I should be using spell check, so on and so on.......

ravensgait

05-11-05, 12:58 PM

LMAO Gregg ya best go back and read your own post! But then maybe you feel when you call people stupid or other names as you put it, you don't think it is mean or insulting? Sure seems to bother you when others reply to you as you talk to them.

The only reason anyone needs is that they WANT TO! Plain and simple if the animals belong to them they can breed them how ever they want, they don't need any other reason. Now when you become ruler of the world you can make everyone do what you want but until then worry about your own house and stop trying to tell people what they can and can't do(wait till you rule the world then you can) LMAO

You keep saying how dangerous this hybrid is(or any hybrid) yet this from a guy who keeps hots, animals that are potentially dangerous, to you or anyone else. Have I or anyone else here said anything about the real danger your animals could possibly be? Nope I think you should be able to keep and breed what you want.

Slanderous remarks? might want to look up the definition of the word LOL like so many things here you don't have a clue what your talking about.

Ah now you don't want me to have snakes I'm hurt LOL again when you rule the world you can decide that and have me fed to one of your snakes if you want LOLOL.

All we have from you Gregg and Seamenus is that you just hate the little animals and you hate anyone who is involved with or may become involved with hybrids. I think that pretty well sums up your position on Hybrids and the people who disagree with you at least that is the position you have laid out here.
Randy

Gregg M

05-11-05, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by ravensgait
LMAO Gregg ya best go back and read your own post! But then maybe you feel when you call people stupid or other names as you put it, you don't think it is mean or insulting? Sure seems to bother you when others reply to you as you talk to them.

Quote it!!! Go ahead give the quote where I spacifcly pointed out another member of this site and called them ANY name.....

You cant because I never did.....

Also, venomous snake are dangerous in the hands of, lets say, someone with your experiance and husbandry views......

But in the hands of an expeianced, responsible keeper who is "checked up on" by the state a couple of times a year to make sure all safty requirments and protocal are being followed, they are no more dangerous than a large constrictor......

Plus they are in locked cages in a locked, escape proof room (also approved by a F&W officer) that only I have the keys to...... The only person at any type of risk is myself..... I have accepted the risks in keeping these animals......

I am not polluting captive stock with tainted bloodlines and physical deformities and abnormalities..... No one will ever get questionable stock from me......

When you buy a hot, you know it is a hot.....

Now when people buy a Woma, there is a chance there will be carpet blood in it because of this greed driven experiment..... I know I would be pissed about that and so would MANY others......

Again, stop talking about things you do not know about......

It is funny how all of your comparisons have been proven to be meaningless and without simple thought funtion.....

You are comparing apples to hotdogs......

It is almost sad to see you grasping for straws like this...... You are even saying I said and did things I never said or did.....LOL Oh and putting words in my mouth and making some pretty crazy ASSumptions.....

Again, you are the inexperianced and uneducated....... It is a shame someone new to all this might actually think you know what you are talking about.......
But you can bet I will be there to challenge your BS and put a real scientific perspective on things......

My thoughts and views are based on proven science, not greed or the desire to own something "cool"........

Boakid

05-11-05, 01:54 PM

"The only reason anyone needs is that they WANT TO! Plain and simple if the animals belong to them they can breed them how ever they want, they don't need any other reason."

thats like saying if its your dog beat it

ravensgait

05-11-05, 02:52 PM

Kid now where did you get that idea from? would you want me telling you what you should breed ??? I sure don't want you Gregg or anyone telling me or anyone else what I can keep and how I should breed it. Seems Gregg sure wants to tell people what they can and can't do. Also wants to regulate the keeping of reptiles! Boakid do you have 20 years experience in keeping them and a degree in anything related to reptiles? if not you might be out of luck if Gregg had his way.

Randy

Gregg M

05-11-05, 03:19 PM

You know what is sad???? A 14 year old kid has more of a grip on what is right and wrong than you do......LOL

I never told anyone what they can or cant do..... I simply gave my views on hybrids and why they should not be created...... Yes, real, proven reasons with backing.....

You have given nothing at all..... No substance, no science, no legit reasons why they are a benefit...... All you gave were very poor comparisons, name calling, assumptions about Seamus and I, and the so called "importance of spell check"...... LOL

Pathetic, pathetic, PATHETIC.....

Even young kids see how pathetic you are.....

Boakid would not be out of luck because he has a functional brain in his head and he can see far past your BS......
He is Ok in my book.... I think his dog analogy was more thought out and better than anything you have posted in 12 pages.....

And like I said before, the only people that would be against the regulation of keeping reptiles (regulation does not mean all out banning them), are the one who would obviously not be able to meet the permit standards...... I have a funny feeling you would be one of the people who would not meet the standards.....

I am not for banning them..... I am for strict permit systems to ensure people like you would have a hard time keeping them legaly..... You know, the irresponsible keepers and greedy breeders.....

ravensgait

05-11-05, 03:31 PM

Gregg I posted some of it above IE the quotes from you! now I guess you have trouble reading your own writing here's just one where you refer to those who disagree with your morals as stupid----I think alot of people are just too stupid ----- your comments to others went down hill from there.. Now there are many other examples, you might want to take a look at your post you have been nothing but rude and obnoxious since you started posting in this thread and then you get upset because myself and others reply to you in the same manner you speak to everyone else. there's that H word again.

Gregg said--It is a shame someone new to all this might actually think you know what you are talking about.......
But you can bet I will be there to challenge your BS and put a real scientific perspective on things......
I like how you use something I said before but then I was pointing out that I reply to your garbage so hopefully some will realize your comments on this subject are what they are BS. As for Perspective the only perspective you've show is a prejudice and rather hateful one.

You keep talking about your science and said a couple of days ago you had something to blow us me out of the water. So where is this almighty proof? geez Greg you could post whatever and I or someone else could post something countering it.

The real point of all this is that YOU want everyone to think and do as YOU want them to. Sorry but until your become Emperor of the world it ain't gonna happen. You can keep wearing out your finger typing post here go on type another and another after that , keep on trying to force everyone to agree with you ! it ain't gonna happen.

It sure seems to bother you that I treat you with the same disrespect and disdain that you have shown me and others in this thread. Why does it bother you so Gregg?? If you treated others with respect they more than likely would treat you with more respect Well until you start talking about killing their animals calling them stupid and trying to force them to agree with you.
Randy

atropabelladona

05-11-05, 03:47 PM

There are these things called ethics...

Plus imo genetic manipulation is a much dangerous and awsome power than owning hot snakes. Yes, venomous snakes are deadly. But when you get a hot, you should know that it can kill you. Tinkering around with genetics outside of the laws of nature can ripple like a stone in a stream, and won't be seen til its too late. There are consequences to every action, good or bad or more likely in between. There is no simple answer to this question, "because I own them I'll do what I want" or "hybrids are dirty nasty animals that are suffering" because its a complex question. But I'll be quiet now so yall can get back to insulting each other.

ravensgait

05-11-05, 04:29 PM

Ethics well there is that but who is really to say weather it is ethical to breed a Woma to a Carpet? You? Gregg? others seem to think it is alright so who is to say?

Hybrids have enriched our lives we see them everywhere though most don't realize it. Sure there have been times when things have gone wrong. The world is full of hybrid plants and animals some did it on their own others had help from man.

I mentioned the research being done on a breed of lizard a few times in this thread that might hold great hope for those that suffer from Alzheimer's. Now the odds of a woma/carpet cross having any use like that is very very small but ya never know. Say tomorrow someone discovered a cure for cancer in a cross between say a Ball and a Burm that someone had breed for the heck of it. Yeah I know the odds are real slim but I wonder how many hybrids that proved useful were made just for the heck of it and later it was found that they had a rel use. I mention grass hybrids for lawns useful but not necessary we see many hybrids like that , they are nice to have but we don't really need them.

The point I'm trying to make to you atropabelladona is that unless it proves harmful to its self and or others why shouldn't it be done? If this cross proves to have health or any other problems then sure why do it again, if they grow up healthy then why not make more of them if people want them? Most the things we have in our lives we have just because we want them. I don't know of anyone who needs to have snakes, we have them because we want them. So if I or others want to have a hybrid Woma/Carpet and they are healthy then why shouldn't we have one. ( I don't own any hybrids but think if people want to own one no body has the right to tell them they can't)

One thing I'd like to mention as Gregg and others keep mentioning that the gene pool of these animals will be forever polluted by these crosses. Now in higher animals say dogs rabbits horses whatever. If your cross an animal then breed the offspring back to one side or the other for 5 to 7 generations you once again have a pure whatever. Yes there has been research and DNA work done on this . I wouldn't think reptiles would be any different.
Randy

M_surinamensis

05-11-05, 11:42 PM

1) Satire is beyond you Raven. Good job.

2) Hybrids do NOT happen in nature. By definition they do not happen. Sometimes our taxonomic definitions are incorrect and a study into the natural history of the animals in question will cause two populations which were thought to be seperate to be made conspecific... For example brooks and florida kings were long thought to be completely unique populations- field work showed a huge number of crosses occuring naturally, the definitions were revised. That's likely going to be the case with gaboons and rhinos as well... As a population adapts to different evolutionary pressures it can begin to seperate- into subspecification and theoretically into multiple isolated breeding populations; one species becoming two. It does NOT work backwards though. "Hybrids" do not happen in nature since natural interbreeding indicates that populations of animals are defined as a single species.

Real bio 101 stuff here. Seriously.

3) The last line about five-seven generations cancelling out hybridization is pure and utter idiotic crap. I don't know where the hell you pulled it from but it is wrong... wrong wrong wrong wrong.

... wrong.

4) Kara... You've read the thread. Answer the question. How... many... of... those... abominations... are... still... alive? It may be TRR time for this one though.

Gregg M

05-12-05, 08:02 AM

Ravensgait, you have proven yourself, without a doubt, to be as useful as air breaks on a turtle.....

psilocybe

05-12-05, 11:53 AM

Just out of curiousity, how many hybrid supporters are in favor of a human/ape hybrid? It would be a "scientific discovery" as one putz so eloquently stated the woma/IJCP hybrid to be.

If any of you were to pick up a legitimate newspaper or magazine, and see in the headlines: "Scientists create first human/chimpanzee hybrid", I can practically guarentee that most if not all of you would be mouthing the words "That's not natural..." Exactly. Non-naturally occuring hybrids are NOT natural, and should not be propogated. Unless of course you believe in human hybrids, then you are at least being consistant in your beliefs and I would have to respect your opinion. But unless you are willing to donate your daughter/sister/mother/wife/ to science and have her procreate with a big male silverback in the name of science, you are a hypocrite. Or for you female hybrid supporters out there, how would you feel if you found your husband screwing a chimp when you came home one day? Would the excuse "I'm doing it in the name of science" sit well with ya? Would you play surrogate parent to the little hybrid when it was born? This is of course making the assumption that a living hybrid could be produced. In all likeliness, a human/ape hybrid would be pretty difficult to produce the old fashioned way, but I wouldn't doubt it could happen in a lab, at least in the near future. Anyone have any objections?

Before any half-wit jumps on me, my post is not so subtely laced in sarcasm. However, the underlying point is that if you are going to argue that non-naturally ocurring hybrids are okay, you should have no ethical concerns when it comes to the hybridization, or other genetic experiments (such as cloning) with humans. We are after all, just another species of animal, no better, no worse than any other living creature on this planet. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

psilocybe

05-12-05, 12:04 PM

Oh, and if anyone is gonna use religion as a reason why human/ape hybrids shouldn't be created, I would think that God would have objections to us mere mortals playing God and creating hybrids that would NEVER exist in nature.

*NOTE: I don't believe in god myself, but if you were gonna use that excuse, this is my rebuttal.

gonesnakee

05-12-05, 02:41 PM

LMAO it just gets more entertaining. Surprised its not being moderated seeings how you Mrs. Morals folks want to keep discussing religon. Seeings how I mentioned it ever hear of Evolution? Heck breeding with apes could be considered totally natural to some folks after all we desended from them right? LOL.
M. suri if you really think Kara is going to reply I think you are mistaken as she probably hasn't viewed anything here past the first page or so & even if she has I doubt she would bother giving it a response. I too though am interested as you MAY be right in reguards to this particular "crossing" as if they have all since perished they probably weren't meant to be. IF that is & only this particular hybrid. ; ) No "blanket rules" or black & white, but a whole lot of grey area. Not every hybrid is a success story, but many are a complete success.
Oh & Flame on Oh Great Judgemental One! Bugeyed hybrids??? LMAO I'd like to see them. Maybe if you started with an inbred ratsnake. No Hybrid Vigor??? Maybe you should talk to someone with a degree in genetics. Just goes to show how very little you know (or choose too) about hybrids or rather how you can only accept the facts that suport your opinions. Its funny how most of the studies quoted took place before most types of snake Hybrids even existed (& didn't even involve snakes ), but are considered conclusive evidence to back your "claims". LMAO Mark
P.S. had to say Hi again as I hadn't been around since like pg 5 & more posts were requested. A few good posts since then on both sides, but mostly just the same old same old. Sad that folks can't discuss things as adults & choose to act like children when they don't get their way. IMHO all still looks like just a matter of opinion.

M_surinamensis

05-12-05, 03:04 PM

M. suri if you really think Kara is going to reply I think you are mistaken as she probably hasn't viewed anything here past the first page or so & even if she has I doubt she would bother giving it a response.

The "Users Online" section lets you know who's on reading what. She's been reading.

Apparantly she doesn't have enough spare time to hit a single key on the number pad and submit it though. Same way she was way too busy to actually explain where those venomoids came from and why NERD owns them. Or who really originated a few of those ball morphs thay claim to have been the first to produce (coughcoughBULLSH!Tcoughcough). She's way too busy to clear up a lot of things that put NERD in a questionable light.

psilocybe

05-12-05, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by gonesnakee
LMAO it just gets more entertaining. Surprised its not being moderated seeings how you Mrs. Morals folks want to keep discussing religon. Seeings how I mentioned it ever hear of Evolution? Heck breeding with apes could be considered totally natural to some folks after all we desended from them right? LOL.

First off, I only mentioned religion as an excuse one might use to refute the post prior to that one...you know, the ape/human hybrid post :D If you continued to read the next sentence, you would have seen the part where I mentioned I'm not religious at all. I certainly was not using god as a argument against hybridization of snakes.

Maybe NERD should start working on the whole human/ape hybrid thing. Since you seem so supportive, maybe you'd be willing to participate in the more, ahem, intimate procedures involved. I'm sure the offspring would fetch a pretty penny :)

atropabelladona

05-12-05, 03:56 PM

Isn't that how geneticists speculate AIDS got passed to humans in the 1930s based on mutation rates? Since it has existed in the great apes for many many generations before it became an epidemic in humans... but all of you with geneticist friends knew that, huh?

psilocybe

05-12-05, 05:01 PM

Originally posted by atropabelladona
Isn't that how geneticists speculate AIDS got passed to humans in the 1930s based on mutation rates? Since it has existed in the great apes for many many generations before it became an epidemic in humans... but all of you with geneticist friends knew that, huh?

If I'm not mistaken, you are asking whether copulation with monkeys is how AIDS made the species jump from apes to humans...the answer is no. Again, maybe I misread your post, or I'm just a pervert.

The accepted theory (with a lot of evidence, just go to an African bushmarket) is that hunters who kill primates for bush-meat were exposed to their blood (obviously, while butchering the meat, and let's face it, they don't care about little cuts/nicks on their hands) and the virus made the species jump that way. There are actually HUNDREDS of HIV-like viruses that inhabit primates. There is major concern among virologists that one or more of these potential AIDS successors could make the jump and be even more virulent and deadly than HIV.

RB420

05-12-05, 07:09 PM

i'd only screw a monkey if she were hot.

atropabelladona

05-12-05, 07:14 PM

LOL its no problem, I had a test in organic chem, roman history, and statistics each today, my word selection and typing are becoming less and less coherent as the day wears on... Next time I will try to be more clear.

ravensgait

05-12-05, 08:15 PM

Well this thread has taken a turn toward the gutter LMAO but it was pretty much there anyway.

RB I sure don't want to know what you consider to be hot!

As for the human ape thing I'm sure someone could find some photos on line if they looked hard enough, lots of strange things out there. LMAO
Randy

pythonmdk

05-12-05, 10:25 PM

for the monkey/human relationship all I have to say is watch the Dave Chapell-For what it's worth comedy special, I think you will all get a kick out of it, its pretty freaking hilarious. Everyone on this sight will probably agree!!!!!!!!!!!

Jeff_Favelle

05-13-05, 12:56 AM

i'd only screw a monkey if she were hot.

LMFAO while ROTF!!!!!!!!

gonesnakee

05-13-05, 12:46 PM

Mmmmmm Beastialty, uh pass LOL In reguards to the African Bush market thing, I beleive it, I worked there back in '88 & saw some things that were pretty "nasty". A butchered "whatever" would hang in the sun for days in the desert as chunks were cut off it a few times daily for meals. No federal inspectors or fridges/freezers in the middle of the Kalahari. Yum Yum want some fresh goat its only been hanging here for 3 days now. Mark
P.s. I know YOU weren't using religon as an argument, but others don't hesitate. God has been mentioned quite a bit in the thread since the beginning. Its the biggest part of the argument afterall, Morals & Ethics that is & how we should all follow others beliefs because they say so. Heck even I agree the whole Hybrids thing is a big grey area with no clear right/wrong, but I can relate to both sides points. Cheers
P.P.S. Dave Chappel, now there is another contraversial subject LOL I think he's pretty funny myself, but others consider him to just lack morals & ethics ; )

Wizwise2000

05-16-05, 02:06 PM

They are cute, I can't even believe the amount of people here that are so rude. If you don't like it, why not just avoid the thread?

I don't really agree much with hybrids either, but those are so awesome, congratulations. Here's hoping a couple escape and make their way to my snake room in some rubbermaids:) :)

Shane

Wizwise2000

05-16-05, 02:23 PM

Gregg M, I'm Irish X Italian. I wasn't fed to a %^%*@#& Monitor. Maybe a lot of you should look into your genes and see if you're a hybrid.

Shane

LdyDrgn

05-16-05, 02:46 PM

I thought this was finally dead, lol

btw... Kara will be getting new pics of them soon, they are ALL doing just fine. ;)

M_surinamensis

05-16-05, 03:17 PM

That's unfortunate.

The more I look at NERD's business practices, breeding choices and history... the less and less I like them. All those little incidents rolled together look pretty damn bad.

Boakid

05-16-05, 03:32 PM

wizwise this has come up in this thread before you arent a hybrid people from italy are homo sapien just the same as people from ireland. you are not a hybrid.

Gregg M

05-16-05, 04:31 PM

Boakid,
Dont even bother with responding to post like that..... Post like that just shows everyone how ignorant some people are......

Boakid, You have a good head on your shoulders..... I am glad to see that the young people on this site are grasping these issues so well...... There might be hope for the future of keeping herps yet.....

Wizwise2000

05-16-05, 05:20 PM

LdyDrgn,
Can't wait to see more of them:)

Boakid, Gregg,
I may not be a Hybrid:) But it's still just a battle of opinions.
Yours against someone elses, against anothers etc. I'm not big on Hybrids like I said, but that's one darn cute looking animal.

Shane.

Gregg M

05-16-05, 05:27 PM

Shane, it can not be an opinion...... Humans are the same species no matter what continent they come from..... Outcrossing within the same species is far different from the hybridization of two separate species...... There is no opinion in that..... It is fact.....

In all honesty that was a rather silly comparison...... Like I said, apples and hotdogs..... Anything similar between the two besides them being a food item???? NO!!

Wizwise2000

05-16-05, 05:32 PM

Laugh, sorry Gregg, I meant about the thread, not the hybrid human thing:)

Shane

Gregg M

05-16-05, 05:45 PM

Oh, I see.... But if it is only opinion that hybrids are normaly weaker animals in a genetic and physical way, why are there so many problems with them being produced, hatched and kept alive past the first year???? Is it also an opinion that hybrid snakes have no benifit for the captive poulation and are made so some greedy breeder can make alot of quick cash??? I think that is pretty much what hybridization is all about and there is plenty of proof of that......

So 5 of these hybrids are alive out of 21 eggs..... That does not seem alittle odd to you???? Not even one third of the clutch lived.... So now I ask you this...... Are all of those dead eggs and dead babies worth it to bring 5 snakes into the world that will most likely suffer major health problems down the line????

That tells you something about a persons ethics in the reptile community.....

Wizwise2000

05-16-05, 05:51 PM

Very good points Gregg. Yes it seems odd to me, same as the Bateater thing seems odd too. The main point really is weather it's worth it to have have all those dead babies to get a few alive.
And the answer to this question is absolutely no. It's wrong.

Good point Gregg. My hat's off to you.

Shane.

ravensgait

05-16-05, 06:43 PM

I think the point about the eggs and number of babies that hatched was mentioned before, if you want to see take a look back a bunch of pages. Seeing as it is possible that any animal could lay 20 infertile eggs your point is moot Gregg . Without knowing much about this litter any speculation about them is useless.

As to why the owner of the litter(NERD) don't reply here ? Gee look at the comments that have been made here. Gregg and others want to kill the little things ETC ETC .

Hey Gregg just picked up a gravid high yellow carpet female she was bred to a Canary Chondro!!!! LOLOL

Randy

Wizwise2000

05-16-05, 06:54 PM

Also a very good point, maybe the next breeding will have 100% hatch rate?

Shane.

LdyDrgn

05-16-05, 07:32 PM

I will say again that it isn't all about money. It's purely curiosity. Can it be done? Apparantly it can....

What people knew about genetics is being turned on its ear. There is no way that they should be able to reproduce whatsover according to studies done years ago. There are hybrids that are reproducing. Who knew???

That being said, consider this: 15 years ago the way to keep snakes was in aquariums with gravel and hot rocks. Things have changed GREATLY in the past 2 decades in regards to how these animals are kept and how they are gestated.

There are biologists that are thrilled with this.. not upset.

I could easily argue for and against it. Just as I could argue for and against inbreeding and many other touchy subjects. I just wanted to throw a couple of obversations out there. ;)

atropabelladona

05-16-05, 08:08 PM

Originally posted by LdyDrgn
I will say again that it isn't all about money. It's purely curiosity. Can it be done? Apparantly it can....

What people knew about genetics is being turned on its ear. There is no way that they should be able to reproduce whatsover according to studies done years ago. There are hybrids that are reproducing. Who knew???

There are biologists that are thrilled with this.. not upset.

When hybrid DNA is formed, say for example a mouse human hybrid cell culture, the double helix doesn't line up 100% because the alleles are not in the same order, introns and exons don't correspond, etc etc etc. We already know this about any hybrid and we certainly don't need a reptile hybrid to prove it. We will see how long these animals live, and maybe if their internal anatomy is normal or not when they die, but until then, its all speculation that the DNA of these hybrids is sound or unsound (although with such phenotypically different parents my money is unstable), etc.

atropabelladona

05-16-05, 08:09 PM

*my money is ON unstable

Gregg M

05-16-05, 09:10 PM

Originally posted by Wizwise2000
Also a very good point, maybe the next breeding will have 100% hatch rate?

Shane.

Yeah, maybe but it is highly doubtful...... When less than one third of a clutch lives there are serious problems with either the captive husbandry, incubation methods, or the genetics are not right......

My bet is that it is a combo of all but mostly the genetics are not lining up....... Either way it still tells you how unethical and irresponsible NERD is for even attempting something like this.....

DrgnLdy,
why would you say it is not for the money???? Its all about the money....... And is it right to do something just because you want to see if it can be done...... Would it be cool for me inject growth hormones into a bunch garter snakes to "see" if they can get ball python sized???? Would it be fair for me to risk the health of all those snakes to satisfy my curiosity????

Yeah, I guess this cross can be done, but at what cost??? The cost was 16 eggs that would have been viable if it were a same species breeding......

Ravensgait,
Good for you and your carpet..... I hope she lays an entire clutch of slugs for you...... It figures you would have do buy a snake that was already bred to make up for your lack of experiance....LOL

Gregg M

05-16-05, 09:52 PM

Originally posted by atropabelladona
When hybrid DNA is formed, say for example a mouse human hybrid cell culture, the double helix doesn't line up 100% because the alleles are not in the same order, introns and exons don't correspond, etc etc etc. We already know this about any hybrid and we certainly don't need a reptile hybrid to prove it. We will see how long these animals live, and maybe if their internal anatomy is normal or not when they die, but until then, its all speculation that the DNA of these hybrids is sound or unsound (although with such phenotypically different parents my money is unstable), etc.

Just to give an example of what she is talking about here is a simple diagram.....

Woma X Woma DNA strand
llll ll lll llll ll llll
llll ll lll llll ll llll

Woma X Carpet strand
llll ll lll llll ll llll
ll llll ll l llll lll lll l

ravensgait

05-16-05, 10:07 PM

Gregg's logic or lack there of, Don't do anything just to do it . Sent men to the moon was it necessary ? but look at all the good useful and necessary stuff that were a by product, Guess if it were left up to Gregg it wouldn't have happened. Climb a mountain just because it is there and you want to! Gregg's Logic says nope shouldn't do it. Science in Gregg's world? Nope because most of it was done just to see if it could be or because someone just wanted to see what would happen.

Why would you say it is not the money? well it would seem that you expect everyone to have the same motives and morals as yourself Gregg.

LMAO Greg though not much else you hold a certain entertainment value. I didn't have DO buy it. lol
Randy

Wizwise2000

05-16-05, 10:18 PM

I think I understand what Gregg is saying. It makes sense.
Thank you Gregg.

Shane

Gregg M

05-16-05, 10:58 PM

Shane,
I am happy to bring things to light for you alittle...... I know things can get a bit cloudy when people are fighting back and forth......

Ravensgait,
It is fairly obvious that you can not find fault in my logic so you have to spin it around, put words in my mouth and make fun of my type-Os..... What a winner you are......

So tell me and everyone else what my morals and motives are exactly.....

So there is something moraly wrong with not liking a greedy breeder doing a "scientific experiment" in their basement that was not calculated or did not have any substance to it???? It is wrong to be against someone doing an experiment that left 16 eggs dead that would have been fertile if the breeding was between a woma and a woma?????

Oh wait, it must be wrong of me not to support people that want to "see" what happens when you cross two totally differnt species at the expence of the snakes them selves......

How many other people told you so far, you sound like an idiot.....
With every post it is very clear that you are clear headed.....

Every single time you tried to "back" you claims, they got shot down fast because of you lack of knowledge on this and many other subjects......

Disprove what I am saying...... Go ahead...... Oh wait, you cant because you dont know anything..... Instead you just try to make fun of my spelling......

You are a funny kid...... Other people with degrees, years of schooling, and even more years of HANDS ON EXPERIANCE have backed up everything I said...... All you have are notes from breeders doing basement, mad scientist type experiments..... How many of those experiments do you think went real bad before they got a few individuals to live...... Alot more than any of them would care to admit......

Man, everytime you post and I answer it is much easier to see how FOS you are and how little you actually know......

We are talking about snakes here, not moon walks or mountain climbing...... Where do you pull these rediculous, way off topic comparisons from?????

It is obvious that people with a brain in their head can see exactly what the problems are and how disruptive it can be for the snakes on a biological and physical level......

For some reason you are having a very hard time grasping what the truth is....... You are way clouded up...... You must realy love you hybrids.......

So again, tell me and everyone, what my motives and morals are.....

This should be funny.....

ravensgait

05-17-05, 12:09 AM

LMAO Gregg your so easy ,

Always have been clear headed lol you should try to clear your head seems it needs it. Your so full of it your eyes must be brown .

Gregg you'd save time and wear and tear on your finger if you just put that BS about your degree ETC in your signature.

Quote;And is it right to do something just because you want to see if it can be done...... that is just one quote of many where you have said or inferred that doing something just to do it is wrong in Gregg's opinion. And yes I have a hard time grasping Greg's truth because it is not the truth plain and simple . You can go on and on about you experience or Degree in KG but it's obvious that if you went to a school of higher learning your head was on the desk the whole time-zzzzzzzzzzz

It was obvious from your first post in this thread that science or truth were not something that had anything to do with how you felt about these or any other hybrids. You really need to take a look at yourself dude, a hard look.

Though some intelligence and common sense on your part would be nice Gregg I could care less what you believe or don't believe, you can believe that Bush is half lizard for all I care. I was just having fun baiting the idiot.
Randy

atropabelladona

05-17-05, 07:56 AM

Originally posted by ravensgait

Quote;And is it right to do something just because you want to see if it can be done...... that is just one quote of many where you have said or inferred that doing something just to do it is wrong in Gregg's opinion.

Um, there needs to be some sort of purpose to scientific experiments, or else they're a waste of time and money and not scientific. If you're Louis Pasteur or Alexander Flemming go ahead and find something that you weren't looking for, but in order to claim something is a scientific experiment you have to have a clear idea of what you're looking for so that you can have a control group and an experimental group. Come on now, that's basic science...

ravensgait

05-17-05, 08:48 AM

atropabelladona how many wonderful and useful things have been found or discovered while looking for or trying to achieve something else?
Randy

Gregg M

05-17-05, 08:58 AM

Atropabelladona,
It is clear that this person can not grasp simple science and is unable to form an opinion based on scientific fact......

He said he was trying to bait me somehow, but it is very unclear on what he was trying to catch...... I honestly think he was just enjoyong the conflict but he just made himself look more like an uneducated fool who has no idea.....

All of his claims were shot down, all of his comparisons were way off the mark, and all he did was try to correct spelling errors and make fun of my name..... His posts were not valid or scientific in any remote way..... Yeah nice baiting tactics there.....

I am so easy??? How do you mean???? Please elaborate on this a bit......

And I asked you before to tell me and everyone what MY morals and motives are..... You wrote a whole post and did not explain to everyone...... And find the fault in my logic..... All you told everyone was that you went ahead and tried to bait me the whole time..... Are you getting alittle mad because I am not stooping down to your level and calling you an idiot and making fun of the way your name is spelled, or trying to correct your spelling in a sad attempt to make myself look smarter than you???? LOL You are a sad little boy.......

Gregg M

05-17-05, 09:03 AM

Originally posted by ravensgait
atropabelladona how many wonderful and useful things have been found or discovered while looking for or trying to achieve something else?
Randy

Simple answer.....
Many things..... The difference is that the "good people" at NERD went ahead and tryed to breed two different species knowingly, at the expence of more than just a few snakes...... Randie, why are all of your post so off topic????

See what I mean???? Nothing valid and without substance.....

Wizwise2000

05-17-05, 09:33 AM

atropabelladona how many wonderful and useful things have been found or discovered while looking for or trying to achieve something else?
Randy

You're right, but not at the cost of animal life. And if they were found at the cost, than it doesn't make it right.
Shane

ravensgait

05-17-05, 10:16 AM

Gee little Greggie I don't know, we were talking about Hybrids and scientific research and discoveries if you can get your mind around that. As for countering your science I've yet to see you post anything scientific well that was a cute graph. I don't think your stating you'd like to kill other peoples animals qualifies as science but does say something about your morals and ethics. Gregg scientific research isn't you pouring milk in your Fruit Loops to see what will happen.

Off Topic! what topic would that be your total lack of intellect ? nope you've show that and it's been commented on . Your twisted ethics and morals? nope we've all seen them and many have commented on them. Your knowledge on anything to do with hybrids? well if what you've posted in this thread is it, then well I think you get the picture, wanting to kill some little hybrids doesn't show you know squat about them.

Well dang Gregg give me something of substance to refute other than your poor diction and spelling! man how hard is it to look at something you write before posting it? we all miss things I do many times but come on proof read .

No not mad at all if anything I find you entertaining . And to find fault in logic there must be logic to find fault in.

As for my opinion, I've stated it before . It's my opinion that you know nothing of which you speak(you've done a good job proving that out). That you want to shove your twisted morals and your ethics down everyones throats. You think all should agree with you and do what you want(remember can't have that till you become emperor of the world) ETC ETC

Now notice Gregg the differences in my responses to you and Seamenas and my responses to others like atropabelladona. As I've stated before I respond to others as they post and respond to myself and others. Act like a moronic idiot and be responded to like your are a moronic idiot, keep on acting that way and---
Randy

ravensgait

05-17-05, 10:25 AM

Wizwise what if the harm to an animal found a cure for cancer? you may say nope not worth it but if you or a loved one had cancer ? I wonder at your opinion then.

As for any harm done to these hybrids, as far as I'm aware the only harm to them has been purposed by Gregg and Seamenas who want to kill them.

You can't go by the hatch rate as Gregg mentioned as any indication of the health or viability of these babies. How many clutches in the wild and in captivity have been a total lose. To many factors can influence the hatch rate.
Randy

Gregg M

05-17-05, 11:19 AM

There you go twisting my words again...... I never said I wanted to kill anyones animals..... I said it would be more humane and better for the captive populations if they were used as feeders..... That is so they can not introduce their bad and tainted genetics into the captive population and suffer life as a hybrid with mismatched DNA and a variety of other major health issues......

What is the difference???? You feed snakes rats, mice, and a variety of other mamalian life, right???

Yes my graph was cute and has proven science behind it...... You have yet to be able to disprove it and alot of people seem to agree with my logic..... You know why???? Because it is common genetic knowledge that can be verified......

The only thing you can find fault in, are my typos...... That is why you keep trying to drive that point...... You can not find anything wrong with my logic.......

I have done a fine job proving that hybrids have health problems, proving it is not right to do something just to see what happens at the expence of animals......
NERD has proven that this cross is not a good match because of the super low hatch rate...... They have also proven that they have very poor ethics and are irresponsible breeders.....

You have proven that you try to bait people into an argument, your ignorance, and overall worthlessness on this and many other reptile subjects..........

Gregg M

05-17-05, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by ravensgait
You can't go by the hatch rate as Gregg mentioned as any indication of the health or viability of these babies. How many clutches in the wild and in captivity have been a total lose. To many factors can influence the hatch rate.
Randy

That is a VERY good indication of health and viability.......LOL There you go again, showing you ignorance and huge lack of knowledge.....LOL

Lets just say this was a same species breeding and less than one third of the clutch lived...... That is still a good indication of health and viability....LOL That means something is seriously wrong with either the health or genetics of the animals, or there are some very serious husbandry issues......

See, in the wild, there are many factors that can cause a clutch of eggs to go bad or to have a very low hatch rate, but in captivity, it boils down to either the health and genetics of the animals, or the people doing in charge of the animals..... Those are the only variables in captivity.....

So in either case, what does that tell you about the people who produced this cross????

Gregg M

05-17-05, 11:44 AM

Here is some info for you.....

Double-stranded damage of DNA.RNA hybrids by neocarzinostatin chromophore: selective C-1' chemistry on the RNA strand.

Zeng X, Xi Z, Kappen LS, Tan W, Goldberg IH.

Department of Biological Chemistry and Molecular Pharmacology, Harvard Medical School, Boston, Massachusetts 02115, USA.

Glutathione-activated neocarzinostatin chromophore generates bistranded lesions in the hybrid formed by yeast tRNA(phe) and DNA complementary to its 31-mer 3' terminus. To elucidate the chemistry of the RNA cleavage reaction and to show that the lesions are double-stranded (ds), a series of shorter oligoribonucleotides containing the target sequence r(AGAAUUC).(GAATTCT) (underlining indicates major attack site) was studied as substrates. In addition to cleavage at both U residues, major damage was produced in the form of an abasic site at the U residues. Evidence for abasic site formation on the RNA strand was obtained from sequencing-gel analysis and measurement of uracil base release. Initial evidence for the ds nature of the damage came from experiments in which 2'-O-methyluridine was substituted for uridine in the RNA at one or both of the target sites. The site containing the substitution was not a target for cleavage or abasic site formation, and the particular T residue, staggered two nucleotides in the 3' direction on the complementary DNA strand, was cleaved significantly less. These studies were valuable in identifying the DNA ds partner of the RNA attack site. Direct evidence for ds lesions came from analysis of the products from a hairpin oligonucleotide construct in which the RNA and DNA strands were linked by four T residues and contained an internal 32P label at the 3' end of the RNA strand. Substitution of deuterium for hydrogen at the C-1' position of the U residues led to a substantial isotope effect (k1H/k2H = 3) upon the formation of the RNA abasic lesion and the RNA cleavage products, providing conclusive evidence for selective 1' chemistry. On the other hand, cleavage at the T residues on the complementary DNA strand involved C-5' hydrogen abstraction, as was also true for the T residue in an oligodeoxynucleotide analogue of the RNA strand. Chemical mechanisms to account for the RNA cleavage and abasic site formation via C-1' hydrogen abstraction are proposed.

I am sure all of this is way over your head Randy....

LdyDrgn

05-17-05, 12:05 PM

I'm sorry, but I don't buy the "super low hatch rate is an indication" bit. Mainly because there have been people all over the world trying to breed certain species (Indigos, Cribos, Tiger rats just to name a few) and have had very limited success because temps and humidity have been very wrong during incubation. Not hybrids... pure blood to pure blood... and LIMITED SUCCESS. Dead offspring in the eggs, badly deformed babies, or the eggs just die. Should we take that as a sign that they should not be bred or should we keep trying until we get it right?

Every single issue (bug eyes, deformities, etc) that has been brought up can be attributed to inbreeding and husbandry mistakes, too.

Why not quit the bickering of whether or not it's "morally wrong" (breeding with your mom or sister is morally wrong, too, but snakes do it and don't apparantly care, lol). Why don't we just wait and see what happens? If they all die off or turn out to be sterile then you can say "I told you so". But what if.... WHAT IF!!! they thrive and are able to reproduce? And those babies thrive and reproduce? Who cares about the money? The fact that it is possible when scientists said it shouldn't be is thrilling.

Let the thread die and patiently wait for updates. Throwing your opinions at each other does no one any good. At least, that's MY opinion, rofl.

Gregg M

05-17-05, 01:07 PM

Well the info I posted above applies to ALL hybrids..... Breaks in the DNA strand due to hybridization open doors for cancers, deformities, and a large amount of other sicknesses and abnormalities..... Much more so than in offspring resulting from same species breeding..... It is true science and is PROVEN.....

Like I said, low hatch rates are a big indicator....... Look at it like this..... When you breed Woma to Woma, you get huge hatch rates...... When you breed Carpet to Carpet, you get huge hatch rates...... When the Woma was bred to a Carpet, THEY got less than two thirds of the clutch to survive...... That is a pretty crappy number when you compare the other two species breeding their own species.....

So what is at play here???
Is it that this is a very weak hybrid????
Or is it that NERD has to take a serious look at their husbandry and incubation methods????

Either way, there is something very "off" about the breeders that produced these hybrids.....

You do the math....

ravensgait

05-17-05, 02:27 PM

Gregg quite a bit of difference between someone Playing with the DNA of something and two animals breeding ya moron. All hybrids have these problems you mean every single one LMAO Still waiting on some science from you on this subject. You sound like the people who think inbreeding creates new diseases ETC.

The only thing you've have been able to prove is that you are a certified idiot. Please bless us with more of Gregg's science. And as for your graph ROTFL if one were an animal from this planet the other must be some alien life form.

LdyDrgn if these babies grow up healthy and can reproduce Gregg will either say I never said that (like he never said he wanted to kill them lol) or the story will change that their Get or their grand get will have all these things wrong with them and explode or something . If asked a year ago if a Woma and a Carpet could possibly breed he'd of tried to prove to us all with his science that it was impossible and could never be done.

Gregg it's a good thing you were not in charge when Columbus wanted to sail. You would have bored everyone with how you were positive that the world was flat and all the current science backed you up as you stood there wondering why you couldn't see the other side of Spain.
Randy

ravensgait

05-17-05, 02:34 PM

PS Gregg I feed rodents that belong to me to my animals. I don't threaten other peoples animals and surely wouldn't feed snakes that belong to someone else to mine. So yeah there is a big difference ! You really need to go back and look at the things you say and proof read so you have some idea what your posting when you click that button.
Randy

atropabelladona

05-17-05, 03:19 PM

Originally posted by LdyDrgn
I'm sorry, but I don't buy the "super low hatch rate is an indication" bit. Mainly because there have been people all over the world trying to breed certain species (Indigos, Cribos, Tiger rats just to name a few) and have had very limited success because temps and humidity have been very wrong during incubation. Not hybrids... pure blood to pure blood... and LIMITED SUCCESS. Dead offspring in the eggs, badly deformed babies, or the eggs just die. Should we take that as a sign that they should not be bred or should we keep trying until we get it right?

I could have just as easily quote ravens, but I prefer the non run on sentences, didn't want you to think I was picking on you, michelle.

Anyway, I'm going to use an analogy here. Say person A gets cancer because they expose themselves to carcinogens, and person B gets cancer because its familial. They both get cancer, but they get it from different sources.

You can say the same thing about this hybridization. If the parent animals had been bred before and previously produced viable non hybrid offspring, and in this breeding 5/21 survive, can't you infer that there is something profoundly wrong with the development of the embryos?

Embryonic termination (slugs, miscarriage, stillbirth) is nature's way of preventing severe developmental (either from genetic defects or environmental factors) problems from progressing. That being said, pairings of the same species that throw slugs either indicate one(or both) of the parents is genetically or environmentally - such as an immature female not having enough calcium to grow as well as develop young.

A pairing from disparate species (when the individuals are previously fertile) is a clear indication that the genetic defects are too many to be overcome during development.

*EDIT* I meant "pairings of the same species ... indicates one (or both) of the parents is genetically or environmentally deficient, or in the case of most reptiles, the incubation conditions aren't within acceptable parameters.

ravensgait

05-17-05, 04:37 PM

atropabelladona you said
(either from genetic defects or environmental factors) what you said above may or may not apply to these offspring. Anyone can infer what ever they want to! We simply have no idea as there have been no test performed on these animals. The facts are that the two animals reproduced and it was thought that they could not or if they did there would be no viable offspring. Two out of three assumptions have been shot down and the jury is out on the third.

We might know more but for whatever reason they have given us no further information. Might be because the attitudes of some who have posted here. Either way the jury is out on this one.

There are many other factors that influence the outcome of a breeding as an example in humans there are blood types that can't be mixed and last I checked we are all the same species.

Wouldn't be the first time that the supposed scientific facts turned out to be less that factual.

We know now that a Woma and a Carpet can breed and produce young. Is it possible that one of each could become isolated together in the wild and reproduce? My guess now would be yes, it has happened many times before with other species. Time will tell if these babies NERD produced will be healthy and be able to reproduce themselves.
Randy

Jeff_Favelle

05-17-05, 05:47 PM

Is it possible that one of each could become isolated together in the wild and reproduce?

Not an IJ and a Woma. They aren't even on the same CONTINENT.

But certainly Womas and mainland Carpets. Southwesterns (imbricata) have a range that overlaps (whether or not the habitat or breeding schedule does, I don't know). Inland's (metcalfi) overlap about 30% of their range as well. Couple of the Antaresia's do as well.

ravensgait

05-17-05, 06:47 PM

Jeff it was hypothetical you know each books a voyage on a cruise ship. Both ships run into bad weather and sink. Both animals cling to debri from the ships and wash up on the same island with a case of Vodka. Next thing ya know the island is crawling with little drunken hybrids.

Jeff_Favelle

05-17-05, 06:54 PM

LOL!

M_surinamensis

05-18-05, 06:21 AM

There are intrinsic isolating mechanisms that prevent hybridization in the wild.

A species is defined as a naturally interbreeding group of animals. It's obviously a slightly muteable definition if one accepts the idea that populations can evolve to meet different microenvironmantal conditions and eventually become distinct groupings. However based on the very definition of the word, hybrids do not happen in nature. When they do happen, it requires reanalysis of OUR definitions of a species.

The thing here though, that must be realized is that there is a LOT more to natural selection that interspecies fertility in a captive situation. Corns overlap with several species of kingsnake... never once been a single wild hybrid found. Womas overlap with the edges of most the mainland carpet species... how many natural hybrids have been produced? Huge fat zero on that score too.

It's risky business talking about absolutes when dealing with nature however we can talk about what has and has not been known to happen. To this point, there has NEVER been a cross between ANY of these species which are being lumped together in captivity by money grubbing fools. There's no scientific merit to the pairings (an argument I have heard used in the past although not specifically by NERD to justify hybrid creation) and their creation is certainly a personal ethical decision... except for the fact that the very existance of such a hybrid poses a legitimate danger to the entire captive population for the parent species.

It's also been stated several times here that hybrids might form the basis for a new species... hasn't happened yet and I'll go out on a limb here and say that it never will. Unsuccessful species die out and get replaced. They do not go looking for extraspecies nookie; once populations are distinct and not interbreeding, they are seperate species. Once they're a seperate species they do not go backwards. It's always changing forwards, always branching. That's simply the way it works biologically. Once in a while WE may have made an incorrect determination about populations with a narrow zone of infrequent intergradiation but that's a mistake in our observations, not what's actually happening.

atropabelladona

05-18-05, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by ravensgait
atropabelladona you said
(either from genetic defects or environmental factors) what you said above may or may not apply to these offspring. Anyone can infer what ever they want to! We simply have no idea as there have been no test performed on these animals.

There are many other factors that influence the outcome of a breeding as an example in humans there are blood types that can't be mixed and last I checked we are all the same species.

Ummm you're wrong again. During gestation, there are only two things that directly affect a developing embryo, the genetics of the fused gametes, and the gestation conditions, i.e. if the mother was able to provide the correct amount of calcium, etc.

Secondly, human ABO blood types can only "not be mixed" during BLOOD TRANSFUSIONS. Say you have a type A person and a type B person (I'm referring to blood types here not personality types). There is NOTHING to prevent those two people from producing children with type A, type O, type AB, or type B blood depending on the genotypes of the parents.

gonesnakee

05-18-05, 11:55 AM

Todays Tidbits: Jungle Corn that laid monday (a F3 albino bred to F1 & F2 albinos) 17/17 perfect eggs, Jungle Corn that laid today (a F1 het albino bred to F1 & F2 albinos) 19/19 perfect eggs. Very low fertiltiy happening here in this particular Hybrid thats for sure LOL Hatch rates in the past years have always been around 85-90% for the Jungle Corns & all the other snakes I have ever bred for that matter. I don't use incubators (except for Pythons), but just fish boxes on the shelves in my snake room ("high tech" LOL). I'm sure the hatch rates would be higher all round with more precise incubation temps/methods though. These "assumptions" that all Hybrids will have the same problems (if any at all?) in reguards to fertility/hatch rates are BS. Each Hybrid type has to be looked at individually, as per most things no blanket rules apply, despite some folks unfounded claims. As orginally stated in reguards to this particular crossing (IJ X Woma) only time will tell, Cheers Mark

Gregg M

05-18-05, 02:02 PM

No one ever said ALL hybrids will have fertility problems..... That is just one of the many things that can go wrong depending on what bonding points on the DNA strand do not bond.... I even stated that a few hybrids do not have any problems on the outside...... It is the mess hybridization causes on a molecular level...... You know, the stuff you cant see with the eye.....

You are a hybrid producer so everyone knows why you are typing down your pro-hybrid views and trying to mute the proven problems with hybrids.... You make hybrids sound good so you can sell off your tainted, gentically weak stock..... It is very clear..... You are unethical and irresponsible, and obviously do not care about the captive stock or the future of pure bloodlines and this hobby.....

ravensgait

05-18-05, 02:35 PM

atropabelladona Wrong?? There are many factors that influence an embryo before and after the egg is laid. The health of the parents IE the nutrients in the yolk, bacterium that can enter the egg before the shell forms and even after the egg is laid, or twins ETC ETC. There has been a lot more research done on birds than reptiles, and like in so many things there are a number of questions to why things happen.

People with type O blood are universal donors but can receive only type O, those with type AB are universal receivers but AB type can not be given to any other blood type. The point being that in our own species there are vast differences though we are a much more complicated animal than reptiles.
Randy

ravensgait

05-18-05, 02:47 PM

Gregg that is a really Lame reply to gonesnakee, here someone with some real personal experience with this subject post about his experiences with hybrids and guess what ? He gets attacked by you. You need to go back and read you post to answer you own question.
Randy

Gregg M

05-18-05, 05:00 PM

That was not an attack..... It was a truthful observation...... It is a fact that if someone produces hybrids, they are being irresponsible and do not care much about the pure bloodlines and the health of captive born neonates.....

atropabelladona

05-18-05, 05:49 PM

Originally posted by ravensgait
atropabelladona Wrong?? There are many factors that influence an embryo before and after the egg is laid. The health of the parents IE the nutrients in the yolk, bacterium that can enter the egg before the shell forms and even after the egg is laid, or twins ETC ETC. There has been a lot more research done on birds than reptiles, and like in so many things there are a number of questions to why things happen.

Um how are all of those things not covered under "gestation conditions" ?

And tell me why blood transfusions have anything to do with a discussion on hybrids? The genetics of blood types and subtypes are clearly not an example of hybridization.

ravensgait

05-18-05, 06:54 PM

Here ya go Gregg since you have trouble remembering all the stuff ya make up I'll help ya out.

Originally posted by Gregg M
No one ever said ALL hybrids will have fertility problems..... That is just one of the many things that can go wrong depending on what bonding points on the DNA strand do not bond.... I even stated that a few hybrids do not have any problems on the outside...... It is the mess hybridization causes on a molecular level...... You know, the stuff you cant see with the eye.....

You are a hybrid producer so everyone knows why you are typing down your pro-hybrid views and trying to mute the proven problems with hybrids.... You make hybrids sound good so you can sell off your tainted, gentically weak stock..... It is very clear..... You are unethical and irresponsible, and obviously do not care about the captive stock or the future of pure bloodlines and this hobby.....

Now here's another quote from Gregg this is just one of at least a few times he's said this:
Hybrids are known for.....

Low fertility...... FACT

Low hatch/birth rate...... FACT

Low % make it through the first year...... FACT

Muscle and bone structure deformities....... FACT

Internal organ deformities and failure........ FACT

Misplacement of internal organs and other soft tissues..... FACT

Brain damage and other neurological problems...... FACT

If you look at some hybrids, you can see problems right off the bat....... Bugged out eyes, misshapen heads, and even scale deformities...... If that is going on, on the outside, just imagine what is going on that you cant see......

Another Quote from Gregg:::

Atleast I stick to what I say...... Talk about having your head up your rear....... LOL ::::

Yep you stick to what you say LMAO and hows your colon looking.

__________________
Sure seems to me like you are saying for a fact that they have low fertility.

Now as for your attacking the guy well you may not feel you are but it's funny how upset you get when people speak to you in the same manner here.
Randy

Gregg M

05-18-05, 07:20 PM

OK, so you quoted my posts and not once do I say ALL hybrids are infertile..... Again, those are some of the problems that go hand in hand with hybridization..... All you did was quote proven facts about hybrids..... So, once more, where did I say that any one of those issues happens in ALL hybrids????

You need to bring something more to the plate when you quote me..... Man, how many times do I have to swat your quotations and logic down???? I am actually pretty bored with you already.... You are not even challenging....

Like I said, I stick to what I say.....

ravensgait

05-18-05, 08:05 PM

What a Moron go back and read what you wrote !! Why am I not surprised that you are trying to talk your way out of the meaning of YOUR OWN WRITTEN WORDS. You could have at least said that you must have misspoken. Hey DA you asked where have I ever said that? Could probably find the same BS posted by you in any thread about Hybrids you have responded to, you said it more than once here.. Yep Ya Stick To What you say!! well Sh$! sticks to you. Hey if your quick you can go back and edit all your post so it jives with what you said LMAOROTF

See that is the problem with making things up as you go along, Ya have a hard time remembering what you said. What's really pitiful is that it's written down here and you just needed to go back and look. lol

Now you know as well as I do that you really don't know squat about hybrids other than the fact that you just don't like them.
Randy

atropabelladona

05-18-05, 08:45 PM

raven, YOU are the one who interpreted the list as a hard and fast rule applying to all hybrids. It is not, it is simply a list of trends that have degrees of severity on a case by case basis. Are corn x king x rat hybrids fertile? obviously yes. Are all hybrids (that includes non reptile hybrids since not only reptiles hybridize in captivity)? certainly not.

ravensgait

05-18-05, 11:03 PM

atropabelladona I didn't interpret it that way I know it's false.

The fact is as I and others have pointed out is that until these babies get older and it is known weather they are viable and can reproduce or not we just can't say one way or the other.

For myself and as others have said over and over again , the real problem I have is with Gregg trying to shout everyone down. Seems he feels he is right if he keeps after those who disagree with him till they get tired of his abusive ways and give up and leave the discussion. People seem to have the guy pegged right on the money but I for one will not bow to his nonsense.

I have stated my feelings and thoughts about hybrids a few times now. It's simple I don't think you Gregg or anyone else has any right to tell others what they can and can not breed. We all keep snakes because we want to and we all mess with nature if you wish to look at it that way. If you've bred any animals have you ever wondered how many would have survived in the wild? Would their parents even have met or survived themselves? Depending on the breed and location the survival rate varies but the rate of survival to breeding age for snakes isn't all that high. The point is we all mess with Nature but then again we are part of Nature. Yep Humans are part of nature seems most tend to forget this. So are these hybrid Woma/IJ's wrong ? I really don't know time will tell.

atropabelladona I've agreed with some of what you've said and other things well like Gene manipulation ??? what that has to do with the discussion I don't know these animals bred and were not created in a petri dish at least as far as I know.

By the way my name is Randy my user name is ravensgait, I write my name at the bottom of each of my post. Yours I don't know as you don't give it here so I write your user name.

I think the discussion of hybrids is very interesting yet I don't see intelligent discussion as much of a possibility in this thread.
Randy

Gregg M

05-19-05, 06:40 AM

There you go again with the name calling...... Like I said, you are not even challenging...... You have been found out Randy...... Everyone sees that you can not bring anything to the plate...... You have even gone as far to say now that I am editing my post and changing what I say.....LOL.... you are pathetic Randy...... It is obvious that others are seeing this...... You should see my IM bin with all the messages about you.....LOL

atropabelladona

05-19-05, 07:34 AM

Originally posted by ravensgait
atropabelladona I didn't interpret it that way I know it's false.

The fact is as I and others have pointed out is that until these babies get older and it is known weather they are viable and can reproduce or not we just can't say one way or the other.

I don't think you Gregg or anyone else has any right to tell others what they can and can not breed. We all keep snakes because we want to and we all mess with nature if you wish to look at it that way.

Ravens, what do you know is false? I'm unclear about that part.

So you're saying that if these snakes were deformed externally, say their bone anatomy was grossly deformed, then it would be ok? How would it be any different if their internal anatomy is grossly malformed? Viability to me is not just a measure of fertility but quality of life in captivity.

If someone is breeding snakes that have a high chance of being deformed, I think there is a right to protest at the very least. In this particular instance, the small gene pool of each of the parent species is being wasted by this breeding, as I've said before in previous posts. You want to cross a WC corn and king, you're not making a big dent in the captive population because the base is so broad. Unfortunately the same is not true of womas and carpets. We have a responsibility to breed them ethically and with respect for the small gene pool we've been able to keep.

ravensgait

05-19-05, 09:42 AM

Yep Gregg you keep proving what I said over and over and over again. Gregg it's called reading comprehension! here is what I said::Hey if your quick you can go back and edit all your post so it jives with what you said LMAOROTF:: Now I'll try to help you with what these plain simple words mean. If you wanted to you could go back to each of your post and find the little icon that says [edit] if you click on it you could then change the words in your post! That's real simple do you understand it now? As far as changing what you say well that's obvious.
Randy

ravensgait

05-19-05, 10:14 AM

atropabelladona it means exactly what it said. You could pretty much put anything Gregg has said in front of that statement.

As for the rest well you could what IF all day long, what if they grew wings? Guess we could call them dragons. As for the gene poll of Woma's well the animals belong to other people so no I wont tell them what they can and can't do with them and neither should you. Be like telling someone who just wants one for a pet that they can't have it if they are not going to breed it. It's not our business. Something you keep missing is that these are lower animals much less complicated than say Sheep, Horses or US. So the chances of problems like you mention are less.

Look at it this way my wife is pregnant , her first and she is 45 thus the chances of there being genetic defects and or deformities as well as complications are much greater than it is for a younger woman. Now are you here to say that just because the risk is higher she should have terminated the pregnancy? Don't say it's not the same thing because it is taking a risk with a living thing. Or how about people with genetic diseases that want to and do have children are you going to tell them that that can't because of the risk? I hope not.

Yet you and a few others here think that you should decide what someone can and can't do with animals that belong to them and you are going to tell me your right? Your not right, not today not tomorrow and not next year. Yes there are risk there are risk in any breeding you or anyone else makes. Now you or Gregg may find breeding to make hybrids personally abhorrent but your opinion gives you no right to tell other what they can and can't do.
Notice the name---Randy, in the furture use a name or I'll not respond, hiding behind a keyboard you can say whatever you'd like.

M_surinamensis

05-19-05, 10:50 AM

Look at it this way my wife is pregnant , her first and she is 45 thus the chances of there being genetic defects and or deformities as well as complications are much greater than it is for a younger woman.

Not genetic defects. Formative defects or pregnancy complications, sure... but NOT genetic defects.

Randy, something you seem to be missing here is that there's a big deiffernce between "can't" and "shouldn't" I have yet to see anyone, including Gregg say that another breeder CAN'T breed treat their animals as they see fit. What I have seen is a lot of "Shouldn't and here's why." There's a distinction between the two which is important to make. Now, you may want to go back through the last seventeen pages and pull up a quote or two where someone said "can't" but chances are that it'll either be taken out of context, have a kind of tongue in cheek tone to it or simply be a poorly worded sentiment.

What the debate is essentially about... is the ethical decisions behind such pairings, backed by some casual (seriously, it's a message board and most the people who probably read this thread wouldn't follow it if we went past the junior high bio level) science which explains the potential ramifications.

I also suspect very strongly, based off a few things you have posted that you have a kind of minimal understanding of the whole idea of taxonomic designations and basic evolutionary theory. Which is fine, no big deal, it can be explained... but you're arguing some points which aren't exactly the ones you should be sometimes and are critical of things which can be cited as established situational fact.

Beyond AAAAALLLLL that... Yes, there is some validity to the idea of voicing a strongly evidenced opinion about a subject such as this which has aftereffects and ripples across entire captive gene pools even when the animals involved are not the personal posession of the ones forming the opinion. What NERD does today *might* affect snakes I want to buy in five years and so the involvement is very personal and absolutely legitimate.

I also think there are certain moral lines which CAN be drawn as near absolutes (as long as it's not a discussion specifically about comparative morality) within a specific culture. I doubt anyone registered on ssnakess would disagree with a statement that animal abuse or neglect is wrong... the argument centers around what constitutes abuse or neglect. The sheer unrivaled irresponsibility inherent in commercial production of hybrids *in this manner* is so mind boggling obvious to those who understand the potential outcomes that there really is no question. This is why you're getting such staunch arguments. Hybrids, venomoids, cutting the tail off an iguana so it can't whip... these are all equally negative and reprehensible, the strength and conviction of people like Gregg and Atropa (incidentally a very intelligent young woman who's a bio major well on her way to doing something important and excelling in her chosen field) is going to reflect this.

If you want a taxonomy 101 primer and a little brief genetics lesson, they can be provided. But to argue that human blood type incompatability is identical to fertility issues... or that your wife's late pregnancy increases the chances for genetic defects... these are simply ignorant statements that show a lack of education on the subject at hand.