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ravensgait
05-19-05, 02:15 PM
Where did I say blood type compatibility is the same? I used it as an example showing that in our own species which is a far more complicated organism, that there is incompatibility. Gee as I've said before the fact that they bred and reproduced sure seems to point to them being not really all that removed from each other. As for the rest we'll just have to wait and see how they do. You don't like it fine but when you and Gregg think you can show your righteousness by shouting others down and trying to run them off the thread then yeah I have a problem with that.

As I've said before about this cross your not right I'm not right we'll have to wait and see

As for shouldn't and can't well lets see when someone says something once You, Gregg, What's her name. All made your opinions known in your first post. As you have in other post on the subject so why did you feel it necessary to voice it again? Why was it Necessary to be rude and insulting to others Gee I remember your first post to me. And when others respond to you the same way you act all offended. Remember who it was that stated they wanted to kill these animals? You and Gregg wanted to kill them ,now that sure seems like you are definitively saying that Nerd should not of done this breeding and if YOU could you would have stopped them. So Like I mentioned to Gregg if and when you are in the position to say can't(lord help us) to those who want to breed what they want too, are you now saying that you wouldn't tell them they can't! You can play on words all you want but yes you three have been saying Can't.

You go after others because they say it's none of your business what NERD or anyone else breeds, you call them pro hybrid and accuse them of being stupid and uninformed, or in my case you wanted my name as you were sure I was someone else yet I gave you the info and you disappeared for a while , no oops I was mistaken just poof.

The facts are we don't know how these babies will do, the facts are that many hybrids work out just fine others are so so and still others are disasters. Some keep saying these are different species . To be honest I really don't care if they are or not, it really doesn't matter. They bred and now we'll see just how closely related they are. It's been done so get over it.

Moral lines??? your morals and your welcome to whatever you feel they should be but don't tell us what we should believe. And that's just what you have been doing trying to convince everyone else that your have the right moral convictions . You can believe whatever you wish to I don't care but don't try to convince me that you or Gregg are here for the welfare of this litter of hybrids you've already stated that you wish they were dead! yep wanting to destroy someone else's property or animals that shows Moral conviction. Just as people blowing up abortion clinics shows their moral convictions. My way or the highway or in this case die!

By the way yes it does increase the likelihood of any possible genetic problems that my wife or I may have in our makeup showing up in the child. Gee I was there for the amnio and talked to the doctors. Talk about Ignorant We all have things in our genetic makeup that we really hope never come to the for front. Buried in your genetic code are defects or abnormalities that your ancestors had.

You dislike hybrids OK fine by me but as a few people have pointed out why do you feel it necessary to point out your feelings on this subject time after time? We heard you the first time. Yep you can post whatever you like to but then don't get all offended when your told to blow it out your ear. Did yours and Gregg's comments and your stating you wanted the animals dead add anything positive to this thread? Nope it just offended people that you feel that way and they told you so. The person who started this thread posted photos for all of us to see and you guys ran them off the thread. Now what was that about morals?? Nope we could have learned more but instead you had to point out the higher moral ground you think you stand on.
Randy

ravensgait
05-19-05, 02:19 PM
mbayless I tell ya what put up the bucks for a DNA test and I'll bet they have one done.
Randy

dr greenlove
05-19-05, 02:42 PM
I have been reading this thread with interest, and have seen a lot of arguements for and against.

It ultimately comes down to whether or not you think the risks are worth it...and it is clear that there are risks.

To use a quote provided by Ravensgait...

Originally posted by ravensgait

The facts are we don't know how these babies will do, the facts are that many hybrids work out just fine others are so so and still others are disasters.


Quite simply if you accept that there may be risks (or even disasters) with crossing two different species then it cannot be ethical to do it.

Can it?

atropabelladona
05-19-05, 05:36 PM
Ravens, I registered only to post on this thread. I frequent plenty of other posting sites (most of them not as popular as say kingsnake or fauna) but you can find me on reptileforums.com if you wish. That is why I didn't give my name, because I'm aware that this thread wasn't started anywhere else by one of NERD's representatives. If you think threatening me with not responding to my posts if I don't attach my name to it is going to get anything but a good laugh out of me, you're flattering yourself ;) . People here know who I am, I'm just not putting my name on here because I'm not planning on getting this involved in every other thread. Now onto less trivial things.

Please clarify how you're using human blood types to show incompatibility. Blood types are exhibited as a phenotype (click HERE for definition (http://www.biochem.northwestern.edu/holmgren/Glossary/Definitions/Def-P/phenotype.html) ), and have absolutely nothing to do with genetic inviability of children. Any person of any blood type can have children with anyone else of the opposite gender with a different blood type.

Personally I have a hard time doing taxonomy/cladistics, but I recognize its importance. Without (human imposed) classification, there would just be a bunch of snakes being sold as "snake that looks like so and so" with no real basis for comparison. Everything would be apples to oranges, no one would be able to keep track of the natural history of the snake, which is kind of important when you take into consideration dietary and environmental needs, etc. You SHOULD give just the slightest bit of notice as to what species an animal is, for that reason alone.

As for your wife being pregnant at 45, congratulations. The reason there are potential genetic problems with children of aging parents is dependent on the age of each parent. Older females have eggs that may have mutated excessively because in human females, the eggs are formed while the embryo is undergoing development, up until prophase I, during pachynema if anyone's interested, where they stay with the chromosomes in homologs in the nucleus, crossing over for years and years until the time comes that the body signals the development of 30 or so eggs per mensis. So your wife's genes have literally been crossing over and mutating from her somatic cells for 45 or 46 years, and the longer they cross over, the more likelihood of having a problem at a cross over point, between non homologs, etc. Think of it this way, the longer you role a pair of dice, the higher the likelihood of getting snake eyes. Something like that in terms of probability, is about as good as I can do without defining every term I've used.

Anyway, back to hybridization. I still maintain it IS our business how well known members of the community- either through their business practices or newsworthy mishaps - represent us to other facets of science, and to the general public. Inbreeding and hybridizing to the point of potential internal OR external deformity is sickening and unethical to me. I don't want people like that putting their face on herpetoculture. The "don't tell me what to do with my own stuff" excuse doesn't fly with me. People aren't allowed to abuse their own kids and animals just because they are legally responsible for them. There are ethical obligations to act in a certain way towards our pets (even if you don't consider your reptiles your pets, the law does).

You never answered my question, by the way. If one of these hybrids is necropsied and found to have deformed internal anatomy, would you still say its ok? Despite having a quietly excruciating existance?

Jeff_Favelle
05-19-05, 06:43 PM
That is why I didn't give my name, because I'm aware that this thread wasn't started anywhere else by one of NERD's representatives

General Python forum on Queensnake had the EXACT same thread started the same day as this one. Pretty sure.

Gregg M
05-19-05, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by ravensgait
Where did I say blood type compatibility is the same? I used it as an example showing that in our own species which is a far more complicated organism, that there is incompatibility.


Well like most of your examples, that was a very poor one and has nothing to do with the topic at hand......
Now I never said I was going to kill anyones animals..... I simply stated what I think should be done with them..... That is my opinion and I have a right to express it......

Also, if someone posts a picture of an abomination, clearly showing their unethical, irresponsible nature, they need to expect people like myself and Seamus to have a bit to say about it.......

Now Randy, on a serious, off topic note, congratulations on the baby.... My G/F just gave birth to my daughter 2 and a half months ago..... It is the greatest thing in the world.... Best of luck with everything......

I still hope your new carpet that was knocked up by the condro drops slugs though.....LOL

I however do not and would never wish the same on any of your same species pairings.....

atropabelladona
05-19-05, 07:04 PM
Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
General Python forum on Queensnake had the EXACT same thread started the same day as this one. Pretty sure.

I check TRR, ghettoherpers, and RF daily. two of those have a member list that overlap pretty well, and I heard about THIS thread thru RF.

sc00t
05-20-05, 11:49 AM
Wow 18 pages! seems like all threads involving hybrid are always long ones, Although that is a very pretty snake, I disagree with hybrid I feel that it is really unnatural for two different snakes from different parts of the world to breed, but nice looking snake!

ravensgait
05-20-05, 03:47 PM
LOL Thanks Gregg,,

sc00t Whether it is natural or not is one thing, what seems to be the biggest point of contention here is whether the babies from this hybrid pairing(or any hybrid snake pairing) will have health or fertility problems. Doesn't seem to be much of any research done by what some would consider qualified scientist. As with most research done in the herp world most of what is out there is work done by breeders and owners. Soooo

Randy

bigfoot
05-25-05, 07:06 PM
you guys get so caught up about hybrids, its begining tobecome pathetic now. Most ppl create hybrids out of curiosity. We are human and we learn from our mistakes. Sometimes hybrid work for some and not for others. Almost everything now days has hybrids. Look at cars now few are hybrids, it's effiecient, saves time and money. It's all in one opinion, nothing to get caught up about. BTW some of you have too much time on your hands...LOOL!

Regards

BIGFOOT

lolaophidia
05-25-05, 08:08 PM
Ok, hybrid cars, are totally different than hybrid snakes. I drive a hybrid car but I don't currently (as far as I know) own any hybrid snakes. The carpet I have from the late eighties is a possible candidate, since at that time we didn't have as much information on different types of carpets. I just bought an Australian carpet python back then.

As a pet, a hybrid snake is a curiosity and as long as it's honestly represented and only bred by people selling pet snakes labled as hybrids, not an issue with contaminating the gene pool. I've seen some that seemed to work well and others that just weren't worth the effort. As a "what's my snake" it's a nightmare.

Jeff_Favelle
05-25-05, 08:35 PM
Hybrid cars?


OMG, shut the thread down, its about to git stoooopit.



LOL!

Dan_Kaye
05-25-05, 08:49 PM
Just thinking about it, if i found out my Morelia spilota cheynei was not pure morelia spilota cheynei, say crossed with a diamond or somthing, i would be pissed if i didn't want a diamond
just my opinion
but the snake does look sweet, just sucks that somone will have a thousand dollar snake and breed for pure woma and not get pure woma
waste of a grand to me!