Horrible situation.

[TryToForget]

Okay, so I don't really know where to put this but I guess this is the most well suited section. This is going to be kind of long but if you read all of it I really appreciate it.

I have this friend who has two ball pythons, two leopard geckos, a crested gecko, and a full grown iguana. I can't really say that they're hers because they're basically owned by her siblings ranging from about 9-13 (I think). The main point of this post is the fact that they are in pretty bad conditions. I'm not really sure how they've survived for as long as they have.

I'll start out with the ball pythons. 1. They have no heat source. 2. They have one hide for the both of them (they're in the same tank). 3. I've never seen them feed them and I don't see a tank where they would keep mice (they feed live because I've given them mice before). I don't know if they just give them to them right when they get them or what. 4. They have a large water bowl that I only see filled about 1/3 of the time that I look at them. 5. They don't even have any temperature gauges inside the tank.

Now with the leopard geckos. 1. They had 3 of them in the same tank and it's only a 10 gallon. 2. One of them died because it had sand impaction (They didn't know why so I told them to remove the sand which they did thankfully) 3. They also don't have a heat source. 4. They also don't have any temperature gauges. 5. They have really bad sheds and have left over skin stuck on their toes everytime I see them. 6. I'd go and try to feed them and look inside the mealworm cups just to always find empty ones (they're not that skinny but they're definitely not fat).

The crested gecko. 1. Lives in a horizontal 10 gallon tank. 2. I've never seen them feed him but I think his main diet consists of baby food. They've never had crickets as far as I know. 3. Also has no temperature gauge.

Zoots the iguana. 1. Her main diet consists of lettuce (which I've seen them put calcium on). The only time I've ever seen them feed her anything else was a plate full of mixed fruit. 2. She also has no heat source and roams around the house freely. She normally stays behind/on top of their couch.

If this should be in another section please tell me. I know it had a lot to do on their cages so I decided to put it in here. Please I really need help on what I should do. I've said things here and there about how they should improve their conditions but I think the only thing that was ever changed was the sand in the leopard gecko cage. I know that if I say anything to their mother she'd probably snap my head off. This has been bothering me for a while know and I just can't think of anything to do. Please help me out with any ideas that you might have. Thanks again for reading this.

-Jamie

[TheLionsShare]

I would either take them (tell them you're taking them of course) and if they don't allow it, call the humane society.. You're in the US, and fromw hat I understand, they treat animal cruelty as a very serious crime,which it is in my opinion.Why are they keeping these animals improperly? Are they simply ignorant as to the needs of the animals? Or just lazy and don't really care? If they simply don't know what they are doing, maybe try to help them out..Maybe taking some pictures as wellof the animals to use as proof if you report them..

[peterm15]

well they are your friends so i dont know if reporting them is the best thing to do... maybe just take your friend on a shopping spree and tell them to get the stuff they need.. heck all it would be is 3 rubbermaids a little heat tape.. turn the crestie cage on its side and one MVB is a proper fixture over top of a table for the iggi... he can stay free roaming ( not recomended but can ) and baske when he wants to.. oh and dont forget 3 digital therm...

for hides use some KD boxes and theyll all be fine.. maybe 100 bucks for everything... if not try and convince them to adopt them out to proper homes...

[fErReTs]

This situatoin can be very difficult as they are your friends and there are also the lives of animals at risk . I agree with peterm15 , try educating them about the proper care and assit them in purchasing the right equitment . If that doesnt help then ask if they would consider finding a proper home for them . Worst comes to worst you may have to report them . Good luck and hopefully they do the right thing and you can still maintain your friendship with them .

[TryToForget]

Well I just talked to my friend over the computer and this is how it went..

Me: I need to have a little chat with Neil (her little brother) whenever the next time I go over there hopefully. About the reptiles because I'm really worried :-\.
Danie: alright
Me: It's just been bothering me for a while and I've always wanted to steal them. I've just never really said anything.
Danie: wait what.
Danie: my reptiles.
Danie: ?
Me: Yeah.
Danie: no.
Danie: they're fine
Me: Danie. They don't have any heat sources.
Danie: yes they do. my mom got lights like 3 weeks ago. (Her mom know NOTHING about reptiles but pretends that she does)
Me: Oh.
Danie: yeh
Me: Well you should really turn Gumby's tank on the side because they're supposed to have vertical tanks :-\. (Talking about her crested gecko)
Danie: we have to put gumby down anyways so it doesnt really matter. and he's had that cage for like a year so it obviously doesnt make that much of a difference.
Danie: and no its not our fault we have to put him down, kate (one of her friends) broke his jaw when she was holding him so he can't like open his mouth

Then she started giving me a little bit of an attitude so I backed off. I'm scared to report them because I know that Danie's going to know it's me know. It would be kind of like a dead give away. Oh man, this sucks... :(

-Jamie

[peterm15]

well next time you go check it out and see.. if things havent improved then have the talk.. if the lights were actually purchased then you can al least help them set them up properly... if not the they lied and something has got to happen..

how young is the little bro... maybe you can guilt him into doing the right thing.. younger ppl tend to care more about animals and there needs and are easily sweighed.. just print a few care sheets and make him read them.. highlight the important parts and make him know that ppl can get into alot of trouble if there not taking proper care of animals..

[HeatherRose]

Ignorance is.... just that, ignorance.
Sometimes, nothing comes from trying to reason with the unreasonable.

I've had to tell friends stuff they didn't want to hear about their animals, and it really sucks. Once they see that all you're interested in is the good of the animals themselves, they might give you a chance to help out.

I've had friends not want to listen to me about some things (frig, I'm not an expert, but some of the most basic animal care info can be the most important), and I've gotten fed up with them and told them off for being cruel and too lazy to do their research. Once they see themselves through your eyes, and hear your uncensored opinion about what they're doing, it can have an impact. Censoring your disgust with what they're doing is not going to get anything done for the little critters.

I find using the word 'neglect' strikes some very unhappy nerves with people, and as sucky as it sucks, the animals that these people have chosen to take into their homes depend on them to take care of them like they owe it to them.

Anyway, a few carefully placed words can make someone open their eyes if they've got a brain in their head. Otherwise, a few carefully placed phone calls might, if it comes to that. They have several animals in their home, and they are being neglected and abused (holding anything in a manner that would break its JAW is abuse, in my opinion.) it wouldn't take too much.

Maybe talking is just the best way to deal with it, because talking won't result in the loss of a friendship over a phone call to the SPCA or whatever organization would deal with it. I would attempt that first anyway. Take some time and figure out what to say.

Good luck, man.

[RobV]

It sounds like you're in a kind of a crappy position in this situation...

It sounds more like the owners have these reptiles as a novelty, rather than a pet - like getting a dog and keeping it in a kennel, never going for walks etc.. just so that you can say "hey, look at all these cool reptiles I have!! Maybe some of my uneducated friends would like to mis-handle them and seriously injure them... As long as people think I'm cool!!"

I don't know what your cirumstances are, but is there any way you could say, "oh my leos need some friends, I'll give you $x amount for yours..."

Have you ever tried to approach the owners with proper care sheets etc? You could say
"Hey, check out this new website/book I found about Leopard Geckos! Did you know that they come from deserts in Pakistan/Middle East (etc.)..." then you could slip in some crucial facts, like they need a hot spot of 90-95F, thermoregulate because they can't control their own body heat...etc...

I work in a pet store, and you would be surprised how many people come in and say "I feed my leo gecko 5 crickets a week. Do you know why he's soooo skinny?" And most of the time all you have to do is show them some printed data, knowledgeable websites etc, and it completely changes their way of thinking. (I hope).

Other than that, I don't know what to say other than good luck, and I hope the animals are OK.

[TryToForget]

Well I talked to her today in person. Some good news and some bad news. I asked her about Gumby the crested gecko and she said that he shakes violently when they pick him up, they think something is wrong with his back, and his jaw isn't even aligned right. I asked her when they're going to euthanize him and she said that she didn't know. She just acted like she didn't care. I told her that I'll get him and bring him to get euthanized myself. The good news is that she is going to give me the leopard geckos for 5 dollars each. They're her sisters but she said that they won't even notice because her and her brother are the ones who take care of them. It really made me upset though because she was saying how stupid leopard geckos are and how she hates them. But that's besides the point because as soon as I can I'm going to go over there and get them. They don't deserve to have reptiles.

-Jamie

[peterm15]

well good for you.. and just dont forget to quartine them..

[Boakid]

any news on the ball python and/or iguana? btw good job some people are so stupid.

[pythonmdk]

ya I'm glad your doing your best. So many people are really stupid, I worked in a pet store and I always used to love when people would come in to get something and when I told them it got how big it did they would ask it were they can get rid of it when it gets that big, and I would tell them if they aren't going to keep it then they can't have it. I find most people are this way, you would be surpised at how many people ask me what I am going to do with lots of my snakes when i get full size, and I don't even have any larger species. People seem to think everything is hear for there amusment and that they can just dispose of things when they are done with them, just like a toy or old underwear.

[Andy_G]

Sounds kind of like MBD with the cresteds...which is bound to happen if they are only eating baby food...

You are doing the best you can in the situation you are in and for that i commend you.

[sapphire_moon]

i'm sorry, but that doesn't sound like any sort of friend to me.

I (lately) and leaning towards liking animals more than people. I would call the law on my mother for treating her animals like this. and have come close several times. I now no longer talk to my mother about such things as diet, UVB, cage size requirements, and the importance of seperating beardies by sex. Anytime the subject of animals come up, I say how good mine are doing, what I feed, who has been to the vet last, what for, and I quickly end the conversation.

call the cops, tell her, her mother can go to jail since she is a minor, just get those poor reptiles away from her.

goodluck with those leo's.

[TryToForget]

Hi guys. I'm just wondering how I should go about quartining (sp?) the leos. I've never really had to do anything like that before. The only problem is that I only have a 10 gallon tank available right now. I'm really hoping that she can let me have/borrow the 10 gallon that the leos are already in. I should hopefully be getting them thursday.
Thanks :).

-Jamie

[peterm15]

just use 2 rubbermaids ( or another 10 gallon tank) with papertowel substrate and limited furnature just the basics... 3 hides 1 cool 1 warm 1 humid.. and heat pad under them... or any other possible heating.. just a really simple enclosure... well you know hot to care for leos.. so just do these 2 seperate from yours and seperate from eachother for a debateable periode of time.. some say 30 some say 60 some say 90.... just check for sickness, parasites, worms, mites, ect... clean regulary and youll be fine...

ive never done it either but my life basicly consits of houseing saving up for and reasearching reptiles and care needs.. i have a list of what to get...

so far on the list theres 3 types of geckos and about 10 or 11 total.. im prob gonna try to get them at one time off one person so im doin alot of reading right now

[RobV]

And don't forget to wash your hands thouroughly between cages - if the new guys have anything, you don't want to pass it on to your own collection. As a matter of fact, some people prefer to keep quarantine cages in a completely separate room from their others guys and gals - which is also a good idea (space permitting)
good luck
Rob

[TryToForget]

Thanks you guys. I think that I will keep the cages in a separate room and I did talk to Danie and I asked her if I could borrow her 10 gallon that the leos are in now. She said yes that and that I can most likely have it because no one will notice. That's so horrible. I'm glad that I'm getting them out of there this weekend. Does anyone know about metobolic bone disease? I was told by someone here and on another forum that that might be what the crested gecko has. I just kind of wondering if it's anything that can be cured so I don't have to euthanize him.

-Jamie

[Boakid]

I dont know what MBD is exept its weakness of the bones from lack of calcium ? Also wat about the ball python and the iguana, whats happening to them? Oh yes congrats again on saving the leos and best of luck with the others

[TryToForget]

I know for a fact that they wouldn't give up the ball pythons and iguana. I really hate to say that but I know it's true. The only reason why Danie is giving me the leos is because she hates them and the only reason she is giving me the crested is because it's going to die anyways. I know that they like the other reptiles a lot more and it was a struggle just to get the ones that they don't like...

-Jamie

[HeatherRose]

The MBD sounds REALLY far gone. Tremors are a bad sign, but you might have a chance.

I've dealt with MDB in cresteds, I recommend (this was prescribed by a vet) the following:

-liquid calcium, 2 drops or 2cc's a day. (available at a pet store or vet)

-vitamin power, such as emeraid powder (available at vets only) to be stirred into baby food and fed with a syringe if they won't eat it.

-a UVB light, 12 hours a day.

This has worked for me, and I've let other people know what I did and it's helped at least a few people's MBD-stricken cresties...

Good luck. :(

PS - a trip to the vet got me the emeraid powder, liquid calcium (raspberry flavour), a check up and an xray for only 60$ CDN.

[TryToForget]

I don't know the extent of the severity with the crested right now because I haven't seen him yet. I've just been told that he has a broken jaw and has really bad tremors. She told me that his jaw is totally disaligned and I'm thinking that he's been like that for at least a couple of weeks. I can't get him until saturday either so that's even longer to wait :(. From the sound of it I think he might be too far gone. I would spend the money if I knew that I would be able to cure him for sure because I don't have a lot of money to be spending. It's 45 dollars for a first time evaluation at the vet that I go to. And like I said I already spent around 150 on my leo that I had to have euthanized..
This really sucks..
Thank you for the information though Heather. If he isn't as bad off as Danie's making it out to be I'll try to help him out I really will.

-Jamie

[HeatherRose]

The jaw might not actually even be 'broken', but floppy and soft. That's how mine was. You could bend it backwards if you tried. :(

You could skip the vet, and just find a way to get the calcium in him (even powdered, its something) and vitamin d3.

If you've got herps already, you've probably got a UV light and the calcium and d3 hanging around too. You could probably fix him up for free.

Good luck again :)

[TryToForget]

Big problem...

So Danie got kicked out of her house by her dad and isn't allowed back. The only way that I was going to be able to go over there and get them was if she was there because her parents don't know about me taking them. Now I really don't know what to do. I was thinking about calling her mom and talking to her about it but she's only home on mondays and tuesdays. So I was going to call her dad but I don't know if he's going to want to talk to me considering I'm one of Danie's friends and they got into an argument.. blah blah.. Do you guys think it's a good idea to call and tell him that the geckos are going to die if I don't take them and offer him money just incase? I am getting really stressed out about all of this :(. It's becoming a lot harder then I thought it was going to be...

-Jamie

[TryToForget]

Sorry about asking questions like that, I'm just really nervous about calling. I'm thinking about just calling her little brother who's 13 and talking to him about it.

Also I was thinking about the different reptiles that they've had since I've known them. This is probably going to make people even more upset about this situation. I'll just make a little list. This shocked me a lot when I realized how many they've had and why they've died.

1. Columbian red tail boa - Killed itself literally. Neil woke up and found it dead in it's cage. It had bitten it's own neck and commited suicide..
2. Juv. iguana - I'm not really sure why it died. I'm thinking because it was always in a 30 gallon tank, didn't have a heat source, and they probably didn't feed it much. It was really mean and they used to make it really stressed out. I know Danie was happy when it died and I bet everyone else was..
3. Leopard gecko - I'm almost positive that it died from sand impaction. They let it just get skinner and skinner until it died without care to do anything about it.
4. I know that they've had around 3 different frogs. They've all died but I don't know what from.
5. Ball python - Is still alive but go a HUGE infection on her stomach and almost died. She wasn't shedding right because they don't help them have good sheds or anything. I guess they said it was because she couldn't shed the skin off of her stomach. They did separate her from the other one and put neosporin on her. She's supposedly healed now.
6. Water dragon - Most likely died from mouth rot, them not caring, and not feeding it. It was in there basement for the longest time probably just waiting to die.

There could be more that I can't think of but that's what I have so far.

-Jamie

PS I'm calling Neil and talking to him in a couple of minutes. I'll update again after I talk to him. Sorry about all of the replies..

[HeatherRose]

These people seem to be a bit disturbed to say the least. Have you tried the SPCa yet?

[peterm15]

ya id say shes out so call...

[TryToForget]

Well I just called and it went well actually. We talked for about a half hour. He actually wants me to take the geckos. He said that he trys to get the crested to eat but he only eats a little bit. I told him that I might be able to cure him and he really wants me to help. I guess there is only one leopard gecko now because the other one died. The one that's still alive wouldn't let the other one eat so it died. The survivor isn't doing that well because supposedly it wouldn't eat for a while and has a skinny tail.

On a good note. One of the ball pythons has ate 8 mice in the past couple of weeks and is getting fatter. The other one has only ate a few. But the good news is that they are feeding them. He also said that he's going to buy them a heating pad and I didn't even have to say anything. He brought it up himself. I'm really happy about that.

I'm going to get the geckos this weekend for sure. For some reason I seriously think that Danie was making up excuses as to why I couldn't go and get them. But whatever because Neil is cool with it and he's basically the owner.

-Jamie

[Nicky]

First off hats off to you Jamie, I can only imagine how hard it must be to stand up to a close friend like that. I think it's great that your trying to turn the situation around and wish you the best of luck. Heather's advice about mbd was great and I really hope that the crestie will pull through for you. Keep us updated and if you have any more questions i'm sure everyone here will be willing to help. I'd also like to say hats off to the members who have answered questions it really makes this site worth coming to.
Hang in thier:)
Kayla

[TryToForget]

Thanks Kayla and thanks everyone who helped. I really hope that I can help the crested and from the sounds of it the leo is going to need some help too. I'll probably end up coming back asking for help like I always do lol. Everyone here always helps so much and I really appreciate it.

-Jamie

[peterm15]

whatever help you need just ask.... im sure alot of ppl like myself are following this thread to see updates