My pygmy enclosure

[meow_mix450]

Hey

Im hopefully getting 6 bearded pygmy chameleons this week. So I got my enclosure setup; still adding though. Let me know what you think. Also any tips you wanna give is always a bonus.

http://pn.pricenetwork.ca/gallery/albums/userpics/14850/normal_IMG_0209.JPG
http://pn.pricenetwork.ca/gallery/albums/userpics/14850/normal_IMG_0210.JPG

Meow

[RDexotics]

you should add a few more branches of smaller diameter, mine never seem to climb much on the bigger ones but are constantly cruising around on the smaller ones. Other than that it looks good.

[roocat71]

The coco fiber is fine but be careful not to over water it. You really need some more stuff on the ground covering up that fiber. Go outside and find some dead leaves and pull some bark off a dead tree. Clean the sticks with soap and water and stick them in the oven at 350 for 30 minutes or so (along with the leaves and bark). As mentioned you need more sticks with smaller diameters. You can find some moss outside too – I got some off my roof. A large rock always look nice as well (again, outside – near a creek). If you got money to spend, look for a plant nursery that sells “air plants” they add a nice touch, see if they got some cork bark too. I can’t tell from the pictures, but is there anything under the fiber bedding? How big of a tank is that too – looks like a 10G. If so, that’s pretty tight for 6 pygmies – especially if you have more then one male.

-roo

[vipervenom]

Yeah; never thought of it until it was mentioned. Some drainage should have been added.

Some simple sticks can be found on dead trees which is where I got all of mine.

A trick I was told about moss is; gather some moss, put it in a bleender with some yogourt, and blend it up to a paste. Then proceed to 'paint' it onto logs, rocks, anything, and apparently it will start growing very rapidly, and cover whatever you paint it on.

Other than that, it doesn't look half bad.

Hey roo, you have any pics of your setup?

[roocat71]

Here are some pics I took of a 30g I just finished not long ago. It's not as "dense" as my others, but I am hoping the plants grow into it.

-roo

http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/tjr32/Images/pic1.JPG

http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/tjr32/Images/pic2.JPG

http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/tjr32/Images/pic3.JPG

http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/tjr32/Images/pic4.JPG

[vipervenom]

Not bad!

Those mini umbrella plants work awesome for these cages. I am going to also purchase a bonsai'd ficus tree and possibly some Baby Angels tears for cover.

Here is a pic of my 29 gal long tank.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v314/vipervenom_8/100_2847.jpg

[meow_mix450]

Things Im adding tomorrow
- moss
- more branchs
- drift wood
- rocks(maybe..if theres room lol)
- leaves from my ficus tree and outside

Theres a 2cm layer of fish gravel, but its covered by the bed a beast. Also its a 10 gallon. This is for 3 pygmys only, and another 3 is going into another 10 gallon. haha it would have been way to small for all 6 to fit. I forgot to mention Im getting 2 males and 4 females:)

Meow

[vipervenom]

Sorry, tank info.

29 gallon long tank. For drainage I have 1-2 cm river pebbles with two under gravel filter plates (for fish tanks) on top to seperate the soil from the pebbles. I then have 4" or coconut fibre covered with a 1-2" layer of dead leaves (mostly from my ficus tree in my Veileds cage). In the far right hand corner I have also some exo-terra dead moss, which will be replaced with living moss once spring rolls around.

The plants: on the far left I have a huge pothos taking over my cage which is great; on the far rigth I have a small umbrella plant; and throughout the floor I have a few planted creeping charlies, a few spider plants, and I, just for fun, planted some grapefruit seeds which are just starting to sprout and grow nicely.

The sticks I collected about a month ago from various dead maple and birch trees. I made sure they were dead. I tied them together with green twist ties. The lid is screened. I have two thermometers placed at opposite ends, and a hygrometer inthe middle. And the lighting I have a small incandescent fish light for a little bit of heating, should the chams feel liks basking, and a fluorescent light, mostly for the plants but probably benefits the chameleons as well.

Lol, roo, your setups rock! I really am not licking mine, I want to add some cork bark on the walls for additional climbing areas. What type of glue did you use?

[Collide]

Roo i must say your cages are sexy lmao... i might steal some of your ideas and modify them i want to get some mantellas mabey this summer. If i was into the pigmys those cages are like lavish hotels lol.

Oh and i HATE those stupid umbrella trees i cant keep them alive errrr i have one now that is hanging on but i cant seem to get them to thrive drives me nuts specially since i have a fairly green thumb. Just me though everyone else i know keeps them fine ahhh.

Oh and about Bonsi's in alot more chemicals are used to grow them then normal plants, because the amount of soil they live in is mimimal they suck all the nutrients out of it and firtalsers are added basically every watering, id just be much more carfull with using a bonsi then any other plant. because i have some and i know how much crap is in them. Id just get some small ficus plants, instead of the bonsi virsion they will grow into better bushes for the little guys any way

ok enough of my ramble ...

[roocat71]

Roo i must say your cages are sexy lmao...

Well that’s fitting since there are three sexy ladies in there right now.

-roo

[kinyonga]

Just one thing that nobody's mentioned...
make sure that your rocks are sitting on the floor of the aquarium in case the little chameleons dig under one and it "collapses" onto them. They are quite the diggers!

[vipervenom]

I never thought about bonsais doing that. They sell some at a petstore near me, so I just assumed they were alright, but I'll look into it more.

Lol, I used to have horrible luck with umbrellas, until I saw this small one and bought it, and ever since it's been doing awesome! And I am a very good 'brown' thumb, hehe.

Lol, roo, just curious, you seem to have 3 layers of substrate, is one of them charcoal?

kinyonga, good suggestion!

[meow_mix450]

I got some updated photos. I believe thats it for adding in this 10 gallon?:p Gonna have to start on the next one soon haha
http://pn.pricenetwork.ca/gallery/albums/userpics/14850/normal_IMG_0220.JPG
http://pn.pricenetwork.ca/gallery/albums/userpics/14850/normal_IMG_0223.JPG

Meow

[labomb]

looks awesome, I'm soo jealous. I am starting to gather ideas to build my veiled a permanent home and want to go HUGE. but trying to be reasonable.

[vipervenom]

An awesome improvement!

[roocat71]

Very nice! Yeah that's charcoal.

-roo

[vipervenom]

Is the charcoal in there to help the plants grow? For some reason I always figured it was deadly to chameleons and so always stayed away from it.

[galad]

Hey just a question about the leaf litter. I've been collecting the fallen leaves of my alli fig. It's should be ok to add them to a Vivarium shouldn't it?

I've also heard from some people in anouther forum that if your collecting wood and leaves in a pesticide free environment you shouldn't need to go through all the trouble cleaning it. Just make sure it is a clean solid piece and there is no evidence of any bugs, such as holes. Especially if your collecting really thin twigs. Also throwing freshly collected leaves in with the little bugs still in, is good for the natural environment of a vivarium. Adding a small food source for your pygmies, or frogs.

Oh by the way meow the set up is looking much better now. You had me worried there at the start lol

peace

[roocat71]

The charcoal acts like a filter and like any other filter it will need to be replaced (for me it will be in a year). I am not concerned about any health issues it may cause. Charcoal is a common ingredient in aquarium filters and lots of people use it for dart frog setups. I can’t see any pygmies digging down to get at it. There is a piece of window screen that separates the charcoal from the top soil layer.

galad – I still think it’s important to clean and bake sticks, bark, and leaves. Most of it I find on the ground and some of it is starting to decompose. So it makes me feel warm and fuzzy to clean and bake this stuff so that I know anything funky growing in or around it is dead. I am not concerned about bugs; I feed wc insects to my pygmies all the time – just no spiders or anything that could harm them.


-roo

[galad]

Yea hey roo its all up to you. IF you don't mind spending the extra time then go for it. Nothing wrong with being overly protective of our animals. But why use stuff thats allready decomposing? Mabe adding it for a more natural set up but why do all the cooking and stuff. You could have prob had some cool mushrooms growing on there if you didn't.


So for people who are worried about spending too much time cleaning. JUst take extra care in selecting the wood you use and where you collect it from.

Anyone else know if V Vway of growing moss will actually work?
If so thats awsome, saves me time going way out of the city to collect it.
Where did you get that info from V V?

peace

[roocat71]

Well its not super decomposed – this stuff has been sitting on the ground all winter so it’s a bit dodgy looking. I wont pull branches off the tree – I am not a “tree hugger”, just think its bad karma.

So for people who are worried about spending too much time cleaning. JUst take extra care in selecting the wood you use and where you collect it from.

I am going to politely disagree with that to some extent. The general consensus in the cham community is to clean and disinfect items before they go into the enclosure. I’m not sure about the shrooms either. I am all for having a natural looking environment too. Shrooms scare me a bit though (going back to my much younger years), I don’t want to come home to find my pygmies rifling through my old Jefferson Airplane albums.

As for vipervenom’s yogurt potion, it’s probably worth trying. Just not in the actual enclosure. I would probably “test” this somewhere. Sounds interesting though - kind of like a chia pet.

-roo

[Chris_Anderson]

I wouldn't put that moss growing idea to use in a chameleon enclosure. Might look like moss but mold might be a better name for it :) Letting yogurt rot and confining my animals in a small space with it isn't my idea of a good idea.

Chris

[vipervenom]

Lol, thanks Chris. I was just told for some reason it made the spore in moss grow very rapidly.

What if I put it on an object first and then set it in the cage once all of the evident yogourt and moss is gone?

[meow_mix450]

i was wondering how do they find food? With all the leaf little and such?

Meow

[roocat71]

My brevs are active in the morning and sometimes in the late afternoon. I typically feed them in the morning and treats like wax worms, moths, butter worms and small silk worms in the evenings. I place treats near by them and some of them I can hand feed. Morning feedings are things like crix, flies, roaches, and fruit flies. I usually dump them on the foliage where the brevs typically are. If they get hungry enough they will head towards the bottom of the enclosure to find food.

Inevitably some of the feeders don’t get consumed and grow large – especially the **** roaches. At night a few hours after lights out I go looking for the large feeders that are too big to get eaten. I use a small pocket flashlight and 8 inch feeder tongs. I basically creep up on the feeder and grab it with the tongs real fast. Sometimes I think a nocturnal gecko would come in handy here.

-roo

[roocat71]

LOL ... guess roaches is all you can say.

-roo

[meow_mix450]

haha seems like it. Thanks for the info

Meow

[galad]

Jefferson Airplane albums that is too funny, lmfao.

Hey by all means take any precautions you feel necessary.

To each there own.

And now that I think of it chams would prob trample the shrooms sooner then later anyways. Shrooms are probably more of a dart frog vivarium type thing.

peace

[vipervenom]

I have never had a problem with food insects being left and getting too big. So far I have only fed the chams fruit flies, 1/8 crickets, small silkworms, house flies, and maybe the odd sowbug. Feed a few at a time. I often find the crickets run around the cage a while before settling down, and since these chams are often active even before the lights are turned on, and the crickets are nocturnal, they usually get the rest of them.

The nice thing about house flies is if you clip one wing, they travel the entire cage, and will not hide. Also, when the weather gets nicer, some pesticide free field plankton would be great.

[newticus]

How many pygmies would fit in a 33 gal, 36x12x18. The other thing is, if i get a male and a few females, how hard is it to breed them, and how do you find the eggs in such a dense enclosure? If you don't take the eggs out, will the adults eat the babies??

thanks

[roocat71]

3 or 4 adult pygmies should fit comfortably in that size enclosure. Breeding pygmies is not difficult IMO. As long as they are happy with their environment; then they will most likely breed. Finding the eggs can be difficult especially if you don’t recognize a gravid female. I have cleaned out enclosures and found eggs on a couple occasions. Obviously catching a female making a nest is your best bet but sometimes a female will show signs that she has laid. If she is covered with substrate, looks thinner then she did, or looks really tired then she may have laid some eggs. Usually after noticing these signs, looking around in the general area may show signs of a nest. Sometimes the substrate where she laid the eggs will be a different color then the surrounding substrate. If the eggs do manage to hatch in the enclosure, I really doubt that they would get eaten by another chameleon. I would be more worried about loose feeders attacking it then cannibalism.

-roo

[vipervenom]

It depends on the size of the pygmies, whether you are talking about b. minia (1.2" I beleive) or rh. spinosum (5.?"), but rh. brevicaudatus and most other pygmies, you may fit 2-3 in there as roo said. But just make sure there is one male per cage, and one species per cage.

Sometimes pygmies need a pronounced dry season, or a hibernation of sorts to trigger breeding behaviour, which is why many of the brookesia haven't been bred yet. However rh. brevicaudatus are being bred more and more commonly and is getting easier with all of the new information put out.

[newticus]

Yeah i want to get some brevicaudatus. 2-3 in a 33 gal when a guy earlier said he was keeping 3 in a 10 gal?
I've seen them, their pretty tiny, is there any problem with them finding their food in such a big tank?
another question, there's a forest near my house an i always see these neat looking snails. I keep snails in my planted aquarium, do u think it would be possible to keep forest snails with chems? oh and they are way too big to eat

[roocat71]

They find their food, but some feeders do tend to hide. They usually will get eaten during dusk or sunrise when the feeders are still out and the chams are active. Sometimes the feeders grow too big to be eaten then they need to be removed. I don’t suggest snails b/c they tend to carry parasites (being so close to the ground where they can pick them up). Even though the cham can’t eat them they can still possibly leave parasites for the chams to pickup. Snails will also leave trails of slime on the glass.

-roo

[vipervenom]

If you want something to eat decomposing leaves etc. go collect some sow bugs or pill bugs, wrinse them under water for a few minutes and then put then in the tank. Some may get eaten, the others will hide during the day, and help clean the tank at night, without harming your cham.

If you feed your chams a few twice daily, it will give your chams a chance to eat them easier, and find them easier. No matter what, it is safe to say crickets often roam for a few minutes before trying to hide, and so that is when the chams will go to eat them.

I often find that crickets are out and about right after I mist the terrarium and so the chams are on the ground drinking from the dead leaves, and may grab an insect or two.

Also as roo said, crickets (I'm not sure exactly if they are nocturnal) but may be crepuscular, and are out when there is still light ,which gives the chams yet more time to eat. Often chams are most hungry in the morning and so any leftovers may be eaten then.

[newticus]

sow bugs,, sounds good. I also have a Q about leave and twigs. It has been suggested to bake all branches and stuff, but what about leaves? If their all dried out, is it possible for them to catch on fire in the oven? And then what about moss? If it's taken from outside might it not have gross stuff in it?

[newticus]

oh and my other question is, should i dust the crickets? If they are loose in the tank too long all the dust will come off. would this mean i should dust more often, like twice a week as apposed to once.

[roocat71]

Well if you feed them when they are active then they will get consumed when they are dusted. As vipervenom said, they run around the enclosure a bit before hiding. I probably dust twice a week with Calcium/D3 and once every two weeks with a vitamin.

-roo

[vipervenom]

It is advisable to 'cook' all branches before placing them in your cage to ensure there is nothing harmful on them.

For the leaves, what I did, although it smells a little, is boil the leaves in a pot for around 10-20 mins, and then immediately wrinse them under cold cold water after. This should eliminate most bacteria and other creatures.

[roocat71]

I bake the leaves along with sticks (350F for 30-45 minutes). I havent had anything catch on fire - they do get pretty toasty though. I just rinse moss off really well with tap water.

-roo

[newticus]

awsome thanks, you have been very helpful.

[vipervenom]

Hey roo, is it possible to sterilise moss without killing it?

[roocat71]

Not that I'm aware of.

-roo

[striko_69]

I think if moss spores are mixed with yoghurt, it would work but theres a fair chance of mould growing. You shouldnt need much yoghurt though, the spores should grom with minimal nutrients (this is all the moss is getting from the yoghurt). I guess you could use lots of different nutrient mediums. But dont grow the moss inside the enclosure, grow it by all means and in a dry area to lessen the chance of mould. I'm gonna experiment on this now though. I'm pretty sure it'll work but dont take this as fact.

[vipervenom]

The dry area doesn't sound correct to me. If it is too dry, the moss it'self will die off.

[galad]

if you have the use of a vehicle and a national park near by go out into the woods and collect some moss and branches that are free of any insects. Wash them out a bit with warm water and they should be fine. It would be the same thing as you growing the moss in your backyard, just alot less time consuming

ws

[newticus]

i have some more questions. For keeping R. brevs, do i need a screen lid, or can i use my aquarium lid? The aquarium lid would keep the humidity up. I use screen lids on my cresteds and have a problem with humidity. Another Q is how easy is it to breed brevs?

[meow_mix450]

A screen lid is better so that fresh air can pass through. Humdity is easy to keep up when you have live plants and forest bed as substrate. Also misting it twice a day will keep the humdity up just fine. But does the aquarium lid have any holes?

Meow

[vipervenom]

galad, the reason I asked was because when I go out and actually find moss, which is plentiful, I often find baby centipedes, millipedes, and other unwanted guests after a while in the cage, even if thoroughly washed, which is why I inquired about the sterilisation. Lol, I think I am going to do an experiment, I will try to put live moss in boiling water for a minute, and immediately wrinse it off with cold water, and see if that does anything, and continue to see if it dies. I will try different ways to sterilise, and I will post my finding for others to see.


As you know, chameleons require good ventilation. Even though pygmies are much more exceptional to this rule, they still must have fresh air, aka, yes, have a screened lid.

Breeding, is not necessarily easy. Usually you are lucky for one to survive for an extended period of time, even more to breed them, however it has happened, and the most commonly bred is rh. brevicaudatus. It takes time and patience, and much trial and error, and even more research, but it can be done. Occasionally eggs are found when re-arranging the tank, or sometimes, eggs actually hatch in the tank, but it is best to artificially incubate.

[galad]

Yea that would be cool if the moss was able to withstand the temps and live. Worth a try.
If it doesn't work try letting the washed out moss sit for awhile. There are probably eggs left after the washing maybe letting them hatch and crawl away would work.

ws

[meow_mix450]

how about just buying a bag of moss? haha I bought a bag of moss for like about 5 bucks, and Ive never had problems with it and still have a bag full. Its also clean

Meow

[newticus]

why are baby centipedes and stuff bad? do they hurt pygmies? or are they poisonous? oh, has anyone ever added plants they collected from the wild aside from moss? My aquarium lid has a hole in the back for a filter and heater, i could also leave the lid open, there are no sticks that get high enough for them to climb out.

[newticus]

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/68753terrarium_2-med.jpg
http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/68753terrarium-med.jpg
Let's see if this works,, this is my terrarium so far

[meow_mix450]

Wow it looks good. I can see that you have added a few cm's of gravel, live plants, sticks, and dead leaves etc. Have you added the springtails yet? Also what kind of substrate you put in?

Meow

[Collide]

Id just be concerned with the acual plants u are using i know ivy is toxic and i think that bigger one is too i have two that look like that and reciently found out they are toxic as well. id sugest looking them up to be safe.

[newticus]

the one that looks like ivy, is actually some kind of herb, and the other is a type of fern, not ivy. I'm using triple mix soil, as i'm on a budget. I wasn't sure if i should add the spring tails, cause there's no poop yet.
Should i be adding more plants? everyone elses tanks look so lush

[roocat71]

I would prefer a bit more cover, other then that it looks great.

-roo

[vipervenom]

I see you have Baby's/Angel's Tears in there, great plant! Another awesome plant to get is called Jacob's Ladder. I would also add a taller plant that may provide cover and shade, such as a small pothos.

Centipedes and millipedes are poisonous if eaten, and also will bite the chameleon if gievn the chance and their bite is also poisonous (besides millipedes). Also I find it somewhat anoying to have all of these critters running around in the tank.

[newticus]

You know what's kinda weird. I went to the Home Dept plant section. I was looking for pothos. I figured they would have some. I couldn't find it so i asked the lady there. She didn't know what it was, I figured anyone who ever did anything with plants would know pothos. I guess i was wrong. Good to know about the centipedes and millipedes. I'll keep my eye out cause i gathered moss from outside.
Yeah i saw the baby's tears and thought,, hmm this would look cool. I'll deffinately check out jacobs ladder

[vipervenom]

Yeah baby's tears are awesome and very soft and fluffy plant, great decision. My Jacob's ladder is getting huge though! Make sure your tank is a good 30 gallons before getting one!

Another plant I suggest is called the air plants. Actually closely realted to broomelaids and known as tillandsia. They are relatively cheap, med growers, and do awesome in terrariums. Just glue or attach one to a bracnch or driftwood (anywhere basically) and they grow awesome and turn out beautiful, a whole new level of decorating! I highly suggest them!

[newticus]

Yeah my tank is a 33. I will definately try the air plants, but i don't think i'll have room for the jocobs ladder as i just got a pothos and another philodendron.

[roocat71]

You can find air plants real cheap on Ebay. Dont over water them or they will rot. Most of the time humidity alone is good enough for them with the occassional misting.

-roo

[newticus]

That's cool, i didn't realize you could order plants on ebay. ^_^

I have a concern about humidity, which is how to keep it up. I read another post about humidifiers, are they really nessesary or can i maintain the humidity with misting twice a day?

[roocat71]

I started using cool mist humidifiers over the winter and have found that they are probably not necessary during the cooler months. We had some hot days during April in which I started using them again. The hotter it gets the more crucial humidity is. So if the temps start going up to around 75-78, I start misting a bit more and also turn on the humidifiers. A lot of factors come into play such as where you live and the house/apartment. I live in upstate NY and my house is older and tends to hold humidity in pretty well over the winter – so a couple of misting during the day keeps the humidity up just fine. Temps during the winter usually are around 70-72F with a 9 degree drop at night. So I don’t use the humidifiers during that time. Over the summer I will most likely have them on. I will post a pic later tonight of my setups with the humidifiers in place.

-roo

[vipervenom]

I just recently bought a Zoo-Med humidifier and I think they are great however you need a fairly large bowl and fairly deeps for it to work. It is very hard to raise the humidity when it is colder out, well at least hold it, however like roo said when it is warmer out it is great to have!

I find if you have a good 4" substrate and mist twice daily, in the morning and evening, the humidity stays around 70-90%.

[newticus]

well i have a good deep substrate.
I'm having a bit of a problem though. I'm getting mushrooms. I have a small white one and this little green ones that are almost the colour of snot.
I mean i like mushrooms and think they are one of the cooles plant/things but i'm not a 100% on them being safe to be in my tank.

[meow_mix450]

you got mushrooms! wow thats crazy, that has never happened to me before

Meow

[vipervenom]

that has happened to me. It usually happens when you don't let the soil dry out between mistings. Also note that mushrooms are fungi, meaning they live of dead or decaying matter, you might want to double check your substrate ore replace it. Most mushrooms are toxic, highly.

[outcold720]

A way to kill all the bugs and what not on moss is to "drown" it. Take a bucket or large bowl and put the moss in it put a rock or somthing heavy on top of the moss. Then fill the whole thing with water so its fully submersed and keep it in the water for 24 hours at the least. This will kill all the bugs and the moss will still stay alive.

[vipervenom]

You are a genious! Lol! so simple yet passed right by me, awesome idea, I will try that immediately!

[newticus]

well it is triple mix, meaning it's clay, peat and manure.

isn't it normall to have things decaying, i mean, all the dead leaves and what have you.

oh and by the way, the drowning method rocks, your so clever!

[vipervenom]

To a certain exten rotting is fine, but it is to my understanding that if mushrooms grow, it means the air is stagnant, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I just know that most mushrooms are toxic to humans even, imagine what it could do to an animal that is an inch or two long.

[newticus]

ok,, so if i clear out the stangnant air, they should go away?
I don't want them in my tank, cause i think they would be bad for the chams. I just think they're cool in their own right.

[vipervenom]

I think they are a potential risk yeah, my suggestion is to possibly replace the substrate with something different, maybe reduce heat, or on the opposite side of the room turn on a small fan on low to get a small breeze going.

I'm not so sure the manure in a tank is a good idea. I know mushrooms grow extensively from manure and commercially eaten mushrooms are actually grown on manure so that may be what is causing the mushrooms to grow.

[newticus]

that's going to be a dificult task. Do you think the whole thing needs replacing, or can i take some out and replace it with,,, soil. and what kind would you recomend,
like a brand

[vipervenom]

Honestly I find insects hatch a lot more from soil than the stuff I use. The expandable coconut fibre is an awesome cheap substrate. Plants grow great in it, it stay's nice and clean, and holds moisture nicely as well.