I was reading last years all venomous issue of Reptiles magazine...

[Reticsrule]

I was reading the article on eyelash vipers and the author(I think) said that he had some babies and they got loose in his truck and when he was catching them one bit him on the finger. then he said it left a small itchy welt similar to a mosquito bite that went away the next day. i would think that it would have been a lot worse than that.im always hearing that baby venomous snakes are just as deadly as adults. would the minor effect be because it was a dry bite or are eyelash vipers just not that venomous(i dont know much about them).

[ChurleR]

Eyelash vipers supposedly have pretty nasty bites for their size. I believe he probably got a dry bite. <i>Bothriechis schlegelli</i> <b>used</b> to cause around 3-6 deaths per year in Costa Rica apparently because they're arboreal, and bites tended to hit the face and neck. Bleeding gums, swelling, not pleasant stuff.

[redcarpet]

Keep in mind that these bites take place in the jungle far away for any hospital.It would take a long time to receive treatment.I'm really not sure I believe in dry bites.I think they could happen,but its like hitting the lotto.I know a personthat has been biten over forty times and it has never been dry.

Just my 2 cents

[psilocybe]

There are many factors involved in how serious a snakebite may be, but in this instance, one factor might be that the snakes were babies, and though the venom is just as toxic (though probably not any more toxic) than the adults, the amount injected is far less, obviously due to the babies smaller size=smaller venom glands=less venom output. The snake may also not have injected the full amount it was capable of. Dry bites do happen, and with some snakes (i.e. rattlesnakes), it has been estimated that a rather high percentage of bites are dry...dry doesn't neccesarily mean that NO venom was injected, but often times very little is used, and symptoms are minimal. Therefore, if you were to get bitten by an adult western diamondback, and only developed swelling and minor bruising at the bitesite, you could consider that a dry bite.

A bite from an adult eyelash would likely stand to be considerably more serious than a red welt and some itching.

[redcarpet]

with some snakes (i.e. rattlesnakes), it has been estimated that a rather high percentage of bites are dry...dry doesn't neccesarily mean that NO venom was injected, but often times very little is used

I think minimal venom is injected sometimes,but I don't believe in dry meaning none.Can you please tell me where you got the info on the rattlesnakes.I would like to know how they figure that a high percentage of bites are dry,and are they talking about minimal venom or none.

Thanks

[psilocybe]

Originally posted by redcarpet
I think minimal venom is injected sometimes,but I don't believe in dry meaning none.Can you please tell me where you got the info on the rattlesnakes.I would like to know how they figure that a high percentage of bites are dry,and are they talking about minimal venom or none.

Thanks

*sigh* You're gonna make me work, aren't ya? ;) I'll see if I can dig up some resources on the rattlesnakes...perhaps someone else here can also chime in if they know anything. I want to say that one statistic I saw said up to 40% of N.A. rattlesnake bites are dry bites. This means that they really don't know what percentage of bites are "dry bites", but it seems based on the number of people who go to the hospital asymptomatic or whatever, that there is a high rate of dry bites.

The term "dry bite" is problematic in itself. Taken literally, it means that absolutely no venom was injected. However, I've always interpretted it to mean very little to no venom, most likely very little. Take this scenario for example:

I had a friend with an adult W.A. gaboon. One day, I was at his place and he was feeding it. He placed a jumbo adult rat in it's cage, and the rat immediately started investigating the snake. At first, the snake seemed disturbed and tried to move away, however after a minute or so, it struck the rat, fast and hard (as would be expected from a gaboon). The rat took upwards of 1 hour to actually die. Now gaboon venom is very toxic, and there is no way that the snake actually intended to kill the rat. If venom was introduced into the rat, it was likely residual venom in and around the fangs themselves. Or it could have been a completely dry bite, and the rat succumbed to the mechanical damage of having 2 inch fangs jabbed in it's back. There was no way for us to tell, and the snake ended up eating the rat, about 20 minutes after it finally died.

Anyway, I'll try and dig up some info. In general, when I speak about dry bites, I'm referring to the liklihood that envenomation was so minimal it was without consequence, but not necessarily non-existent.

[psilocybe]

Taken from emedicine:
Not all bites by venomous snakes result in venom poisoning. In more than 20% of bites by rattlesnakes and moccasins, for example, no venom is injected. These so-called dry bites are even more common with bites by some of the elapids. Dry bites have the same complications as nonvenomous snakebites.


I know this isn't a herp website, and that doctors aren't often considered to be the best herpetologists, but here is one statistic. I've seen plenty of others, the highest stating around 50%. I just did a quick search on google for "dry bite" and came up with a few. I'll try to find a paper or something, I'm pretty sure I've seen it in a book before (possibly Harry Greene's book). I'll post some more, hopefully more credible (not that emedicine isn't credible, but info from a more herp related site).

EDIT: This site says 50%, don't know where they get their information or how credible it is.

http://frogsandsnakes.homestead.com/snakebitefacts.html

This is from Merck Pharmaceutical's manual:

Venomous snakebites are medical emergencies requiring immediate attention. Before treatment is begun, it must be determined whether the snake is venomous and whether envenomation occurred, because a venomous snake may bite and not inject venom ("dry bites" occur in about 20 to 30% of pit viper bites and in about 50% of coral snakebites). When no envenomation occurs, or if the bite is inflicted by a nonvenomous snake, the bite should be treated as a puncture wound. In all envenomations, it is wise to contact a regional poison control center.

In the field: The snakebite victim should move or be moved beyond the snake's striking


You can find the entire article here: http://www.merck.com/mrkshared/mmanual/section23/chapter308/308a.jsp

I just glanced over it before finding the bit about dry bites, but the article as a whole seemed well written and informed, not third-grade material.

I'll try and dig up somemore in the morning, but these should tide you over for a bit.


EDIT2: Here is a list of authors for the emedicine article, which can be found here: http://www.emedicinehealth.com/articles/10707-6.asp

I've know of several of these people and would consider them to be educated and credible on the subject of venomous snake bite.

Author: Eric Mowatt-Larssen, MD, Staff Physician, Department of Emergency Medicine, Geisinger Medical Center.

Coauthor(s): Robert Norris, MD, Chief, Associate Professor, Department of Surgery, Division of Emergency Medicine, Stanford University Medical Center; Clyde Peeling, Director, Clyde Peelings Reptiland.

Editors: Brian F Chinnock, MD, Assistant Professor, Department of Emergency Medicine, Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center at El Paso; Francisco Talavera, PharmD, PhD, Senior Pharmacy Editor, Pharmacy, eMedicine; Thomas Rebbecchi, MD, FAAEM, Program Director, Assistant Professor, Department of Emergency Medicine, University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey.

[cobraman]

According to all the package inserts of antivenoms:

Dry = NO envenomation
Minimal = very little venom injected
Moderate = the average envenomation
Severe = Above agerage envenomation

Keep in mind that you can have some systemic signs and symptoms from a dry bite, including itching, redness at site, etc. This is often caused by the bacteria, saliva etc on the fangs. Even if you are bitten by a rat snake, you are likely going to have minor irratation at the site which can include itching redness and edema. The mouth of a snake is not the most sterile.

[redcarpet]

The term "dry bite" is problematic in itself. Taken literally, it means that absolutely no venom was injected. However, I've always interpretted it to mean very little to no venom, most likely very little.

I think the proper definition of (dry bite) is no venom.When you said a high %.I was thinking over 50%.One would think a high % would be over 50%.Well thanks for the info,but I don't think the info can prove to be fact.

[psilocybe]

Well, I meant high percentage in terms of what one would expect. 40% of rattlesnake bites being dry would seem to be a rather high percentage, to me at least. That's one of the figures I've seen before (not saying it's correct, as it's a pretty hard thing to gauge). I didn't say that the majority of rattlesnake bites were dry (in which case your assumption of over 50% would be correct), I just said a large percentage. Incidences of dry bites are usually diagnosed when a patient is asymptomatic, which can happen when minut amounts of venom are injected, especially from snakes with relatively weak venom like some rattlesnakes. Drop for drop, they really aren't that toxic.

[psilocybe]

Originally posted by cobraman
According to all the package inserts of antivenoms:

Dry = NO envenomation
Minimal = very little venom injected
Moderate = the average envenomation
Severe = Above agerage envenomation

Keep in mind that you can have some systemic signs and symptoms from a dry bite, including itching, redness at site, etc. This is often caused by the bacteria, saliva etc on the fangs. Even if you are bitten by a rat snake, you are likely going to have minor irratation at the site which can include itching redness and edema. The mouth of a snake is not the most sterile.

I am well aware of the dictionary definition of a dry bite Ray, my point was simply that in most cases of dry bite/minimal envenomation in can be hard to tell which is which, especially with snakes that have a less potent venom that relies on large amounts to be effective, i.e. WDB's.

As you stated, even non-venomous bites can produces symptoms of redness, itchiness, some swelling, all dependent upon various factors (size of snake, bite pressure, location of bite, length of teeth, etc. etc. etc.). A bite from a WDB that is infact "dry" can still cause swelling, redness, etc. Likewise, a "minimal envenomation" can produce similar symptoms, so I'm guessing that the two diagnoses can be confused. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on anything, as I have no problem with being corrected.

EDIT: I should clarify that my comments regarding the similarities between true dry bites and bites where the envenomation was very minimal (like venom residue on fangs, etc.) is likely confined to non-neurotoxic snakes, as a person who is minimally envenomated by a neurotoxic snake, like a mojave for instance, may still present mild neurotoxic symptoms, which would indicate a mild envenomation as opposed to a true dry bite.

However, in snakes with venom that presents primarily localized effects, such as WDB's, the difference between localized swelling and edema due to bacteria and minimal localized swelling and edema due to minut quantities of venom being injected could be hard to differentiate.

[psilocybe]

After reading through the thread again, I've realized I'm actually arguing for Redcarpet's point here , lol. He stated that he doesn't believe in dry bites (as in zero, zilch, nada, absolutely no venom injected), and believes most cases are simply very minimal envenomations to the point where symptoms of envenomation (as opposed to the normal redness and slight swelling that may be present with any bite) are not present.

My guess is that when it is stated that that "X% of bites are dry", most if not all of those are really just very minimal envenomations to the point where symptoms are not present. Of course, this is my un-scientific opinion, and if someone out there has sited and documented information that either confirms or denies my opinion, I'd love to see it.