Chameleon dreams

[galad]

I was flipping through channels awhile ago when I came across a show about dreams, what causes them and how they effect us and so on.
Anyways if you dont know you can tell when someone is dreaming because they have rapid eye movement, while they are sleeping.

So tonight I thought I would study my chams while they slept, it took awhile but I finally witnessed some rapid eye movement in my male. His eyes were moving around pretty fast, and he even jerked backwards acouple times as if he was scared of something.
I think this was more like a nightmare. Although I didnt notice any colour changes.

I wonder what a chameleon dream, or nightmare would be like.

lol

[Solomon]

If I were a cham - I'd dream of silkworms - hehehe - wierd/neat observation!

[galad]

lol yea I could imagine a good dream would be something like a forest full of silkworms lol. I wonder what a nighmare would be like for a cham.
But I'm wondering if a cham would even dream that it is in a forest. Considering they have never seen one. lol

Weird observation I know. Some of the things I think of........ lol

peace

[roocat71]

I was thinking more of a forest full of receptive females. The nightmare would just be all males.

-roo

[dank7oo]

I was thinking the rapid eye movement were most likely not a dream considering chameleons are not people :D

Anyways, if it were a "dream" it would probably be of a tree.

Jason

[CarlC]

I would doubt it was a dream. Most likely it is something in the nervous system caused by a imbalance in the diet.

Twitching movements would lead to a high predation rate in the wild. Chameleons are able to go undetected by predators at night because they are so still and have a body temp that is close if not even to air temperature.

Just my thoughts.

Carl

[kinyonga]

Here's a site about REM in chameleons....look at the date in the article.
Interesting!

[kinyonga]

Oops!
Forgot the link....
http://www.psyc.bbk.ac.uk/people/academic/walker_s/pubs/an-thought/at-ch6.html

[labomb]

that's pretty deep. I know for a fact that dogs dream.

[galad]

Jason have you not seen a dog or cat dream?
If I am correct they are not people.
Carl I don't know what would be causing a diet imbalance, he eats like a king. And his food gets dusted as it should. There is nothing wrong with his food. The crix and meal worms are kept just a clean as the chameleons themselves.
That does not explain the REM.
And its not like he was twitching so much as to fall off a branch or give himself away. I was right next to him watching closely to see it. One or even ten of these twitches would not give him away in the wild. IF a predator was close enough to see it it would have already been to late.

I really don't know why people have to come on here and tell people that what they have witnessed with their own eyes, is wrong. I sat there and watched him for a half hour. I know what I saw. Maybe you guys should watch your chams at night also, and see what you think.

The question is do they dream all the time?

peace

ws

[CarlC]

How do we know that the suppliments we give our animals are really what they need? Only a few studies have been done on the nutritional content of wild insects from a couple of locales. To my knowledge no studies have been done in Yemen. I really don't have any idea of what is in todays vitamin suppliments. I haven't used them in years. The only vitamin I use is D3 once a week.

It wouldn't take much movement to catch the attention of a hungry owl or any of the other predators that lurk in the forests.

Like I said just my thoughts.

Carl

[galad]

Well I didnt mean to offend your view, but why be so negative?

To my knowledge most crix gut loads contain most of the vitamins needed. I also seldom use the Herptive I have from Rep-cal.
And as far as whats in it. It has the ingredients right on the side.

And sure some movement would attract a hungrey predator, but thats nature my freind. Owls have to eat too.

peace

[kinyonga]

Carl...how do you balance the calcium and phosporous intake in your chameleons then?

[dank7oo]

A proper gutload along with bug variety contains most if not all of the nutrients that a chameleon needs, except, as Carl mentioned, D3 for chameleons that are kept indoors.

Jason

[roocat71]

Jerky movements during sleep doesn’t really jive with a chameleons characteristics, so I tend to lean towards what Carl is getting at. Not to say that the chameleon couldn’t actually be dreaming though I also can’t help to notice that Carl is pretty good about pointing out alternate views on things – which can point to something negative. I have never thought that was the intention though. I know I would be kind of tweaked if someone told me I was caring for my chams wrong, but at the same time I would be appreciative to any thoughts or views on the matter. As for food/nutrients, there is absolutely now way that we can offer an equivalent to what the chameleons gets in the wild. Even with a plethora of feeders, vitamins, calcium, premium gut loads, or whatever.

-roo

[galad]

lol thanks for posting something I have already stated dank. lol.
When I said jerky movements I didnt not mean he was sitting there constantly jerking. It was a couple very slight backwards jerks.
Again I had my face right there and was watching him very closely to be able to notice it. If you were just walking by when it happened you would not notice it.
Im not saying that Carl is wrong to point out alternative views.
But he does not have to do it constantly.
I would think that I have been posting on this sight long enough to give what I say some credability. And to give me the benefit of the doubt that I care for my chameleons properly.

Im tired of everyone being so negative. And making double posts repeating things people have just said. I dont understand the intention of doing something like that.

peace

[Collide]

Just my observations, The only time i have ever seen a cham move at nitght is when i have woke it up.... or it was dieing. Im not saying that the cham is dieing just adding my personal observations.

Id like to think chams can dream, but it would be a hard thing to prove, to many other factors that could come in play.

[Chris_Anderson]

Wade,

You're the only one that seems to jump on the defensive when people post that you might not be right about something or that you might have room for improvement or that there are other possibilities. Take your own advice and stop being so negative, if you have questions about someones statements, just ask for clarifications or discuss with the person their conserns, don't just jump on it saying, stuff like "i should be given the benefit of the doubt with how long I've been posting here" cause the bottom line is, you've been posting here a long time and credible isn't what I'd necessarily call the reputation you've worked up for yourself all the time.

Chris

[dank7oo]

Order of posts:

Wade
To my knowledge most crix gut loads contain most of the vitamins needed. I also seldom use the Herptive I have from Rep-cal.
And as far as whats in it. It has the ingredients right on the side.

Kinyonga
how do you balance the calcium and phosporous intake in your chameleons then?

Me (the king)
A proper gutload along with bug variety contains most if not all of the nutrients that a chameleon needs, except, as Carl mentioned, D3 for chameleons that are kept indoors.

Wade ... just stop looking for conflict man.

Jason

[CarlC]

Wade you seem to get offended easily. Keep reading cause if you weren't offended by what I said before you will be now.

If I didn't point out alternative views someone that was just looking into the site might actually think you know what your talking about.

The only vitamin I use is D3. To balance out the mineral intake I use a mineral and trace element suppliment. MinerAll 1 and MinerAll 0 have a nice balance and assortment of things found in in a more natural diet.

I am sure most of us do all that we can for our animals as far as diet is concerned. But the fact is that we really have no idea what ratio's are needed of certain trace elements for proper nervous system and brain function.

Maybe once you move into some of the more advanced species you will see what I am talking about. Try feeding a weidersheimi perreti the same diet and vitamins your giving to your calyptratus. It might last a few weeks if the kidneys and liver could hold out that long.

Carl

[galad]

Wow, hey everyone jumped on the ban wagon for that one didn't they. lol
You have all missed the point of this post completely. It was suppossed to be fun, I don't know why you guys are getting offensive I never said that anything you said was wrong.
I was simply deffending my statement, is that so wrong?

Collide I didn't mean to make you think I dont want to except your opinion. Sorry for that obviously everyone can think what they want to, who am I to judge?.

Chris Anderson. Hey hows it going buddy nice to talk to you again, always a pleasure.

Dank7oo I really dont see the point in your post. Other then the fact you think very highly of yourself.
Thank you for posting my previouse statment saves me the trouble.
Obviously I use calcium. Do I have to state every detail about how i care for my chameleons everytime I post??
Calcium was not the topic, Vitamins and gutloading was I do beleave.
I even said "Im not saying that Carl is wrong to point out alternative views. "
How is that looking for conflict?. I think you need to step back and look in the mirror.

Carl you obvioulsy dont pay much attention to my posts. And obviously some how take them as being offensive.
Is it wrong for me to try and clear things up when people have been mislead by something in my post? I was not rude, nor did I try to talk down to anyone.

I dont even find your last post offensive. Or that of Chris or Dank for that matter. You are all just really confused, and don't know how to put the past behind you.
You even prooved that you dont pay attention to my posts Carl.
You said "Try feeding a weidersheimi perreti the same diet and vitamins your giving to your calyptratus."

First of all, no i would not feel confortable carring for such a delicate species I am still a novice. Nor have I ever said that I was.

Secondly I have stated previously that I seldom use the herptive because my gut load contains most of the vitamins and minerals needed. And I do not have calyptratus im not good with scientific names I dont even know what species you are talking about, I have nosy be panthers as it says at the bottom of all my posts.


Again Im not getting offensive Im just telling you whats what.

And if you guys want to continue telling everyone I dont know what I am talking about, thats fine by me. Nothing I can do to stop it, I know what my capabilities are.
And once people see the amazing enlcosures and vivariums I am working on they will too.
Pics should be comming mid-summer. Hopefully lol

peace

[Chris_Anderson]

Wade,

Once again, you are the only one responsible for creating a problem. If you meant something other than what everyone else interpreted your posts as meaning, you need to work on your communication skills. If I had a dime for every time I heard you tell us that we are missing the point of your post or that everyone else is confused. The bottom line is I think you've failed to read and then--now here comes the complicated part--comprehend what people have posted. Carl's comments about the more delicate species are very relevant for instance considering you were trying to put off like you are so credible when the reality is, you've only had mediocre success with one species--one of the easiest species by far to work with. Furthermore, his comment was in direct reference to the discussion at hand. See my point? If you look over your similar posts, the trend for you is to tell us we don't understand, to point the finger at everyone else for being offensive, to say we didn't read your posts--even when we've responded directly yet you don't understand the relevance of our responses--and to act like a victim when you only have one person to thank when these threads go this direction (Hint: He's the only one who can't listen to others views without making a huge debacle over everything and he tends to sign his posts "ws").

Chris

[galad]

LOL, ok mister Anderson. You see the probleme with your post is that your still not getting it.
This was ment to be a fun post. And it seems Solomon, roocat71, kinyonga, and Labomb are the only people that understood that.

I said to Carl: "Well I didn't mean to offend your view, but why be so negative?"
How is asking a simple question creating a probleme?
I was not rude, Nor did I say Carl was wrong.

I beleave it was roocat that said " I know I would be kind of tweaked if someone told me I was caring for my chams wrong, but at the same time I would be appreciative to any thoughts or views on the matter."

And that I was. SOrry for saying that I keep my feeders in excelent health. IF they are kept properly and fed properly how would my chameleons have an inbalance in their diet?.
Since most of us keep our feeders in the same condition, it would mean you all have the same imbalance in your chameleons diets.
Unless there is some space aged way of caring for them that no one has told me about.

Why can chameleons not dream? How do you explain the REM?.

And Then Dank comes along and tries stirring stuff up and I'm the one to blame. He seems to be the one that thinks so highly of himself. lol

Ok Chris you said "Carl's comments about the more delicate species are very relevant for instance considering you were trying to put off like you are so credible when the reality is, you've only had mediocre success with one species"

Couple questions for you: Have I not admited and said sorry for my mistakes in the past?
How long do you hold a grudge for?

And yes when it comes down to basic care about chameleons I am credible. Wether you think so or not I could care less. I know I have given great advise to numerouse people on this site and others.
If I were to care what everyone thought about me I would have had a nervouse break down a long time ago.

Yes I have had better then mediocre success. I dont know when I have claimed other wise. You know so much about me maybe you could help me with that.
You must have known everything right off the bat when you started in this hobby didnt you Chris.

I know the only reason for your last post was to set me off. But im sorry to say you have failed.

I am a changed person Chris. The old me is dead. You are looking at a new person today.


Obviously we are never going to get along. No matter how many pm's I send you to try and reach a mutual agreement. Non of which get replies I might add. At least I am willing to make a change.
So from now on why dont you just back off.

peace

[galad]

LOL, ok mister Anderson. You see the probleme with your post is that your still not getting it.
This was ment to be a fun post. And it seems Solomon, roocat71, kinyonga, and Labomb are the only people that understood that.

I said to Carl: "Well I didn't mean to offend your view, but why be so negative?"
How is asking a simple question creating a probleme?
I was not rude, Nor did I say Carl was wrong.

I beleave it was roocat that said " I know I would be kind of tweaked if someone told me I was caring for my chams wrong, but at the same time I would be appreciative to any thoughts or views on the matter."

And that I was. SOrry for saying that I keep my feeders in excelent health. IF they are kept properly and fed properly how would my chameleons have an inbalance in their diet?.
Since most of us keep our feeders in the same condition, it would mean you all have the same imbalance in your chameleons diets.
Unless there is some space aged way of caring for them that no one has told me about.

Why can chameleons not dream? How do you explain the REM?.

And Then Dank comes along and tries stirring stuff up and I'm the one to blame. He seems to be the one that thinks so highly of himself. lol

Ok Chris you said "Carl's comments about the more delicate species are very relevant for instance considering you were trying to put off like you are so credible when the reality is, you've only had mediocre success with one species"

Couple questions for you: Have I not admited and said sorry for my mistakes in the past?
How long do you hold a grudge for?
And why not get on Carls back about not reading posts?
He obviously doesnt pay much attention to mine if hes thinking I keep something Im not. Maybe thats why you guys are taking my posts the wrong way you are not reading them fully.

And yes when it comes down to basic care about chameleons I am credible. Wether you think so or not I could care less. I know I have given great advise to numerouse people on this site and others.
If I were to care what everyone thought about me I would have had a nervouse break down a long time ago.

Yes I have had better then mediocre success. I dont know when I have claimed other wise. You know so much about me maybe you could help me with that.
You must have known everything right off the bat when you started in this hobby didnt you Chris.

I know the only reason for your last post was to set me off. But im sorry to say you have failed.

I am a changed person Chris. The old me is dead. You are looking at a new person today.


Obviously we are never going to get along. No matter how many pm's I send you to try and reach a mutual agreement. Non of which got replies I might add. At least I am willing to make a change.
So from now on why dont you just back off.

peace

sorry double post read this one not the first.

[Collide]

Back to the dreaming topic

"Why can chameleons not dream? How do you explain the REM?. "

i think carl was trying to give you possible other reasions for the appearance of REM.

and as for the hole wrog species issue carl is right (veild or panther dont matter with the point he was making) its hard for me with my rudis and honellii to be 100% sure they are getting proper vits ect.. im constantly parinoid they are developing edema and cant use carrots at all for the crix too much vit A. Im new to these species and its a masive difference from my veilds and panthers witch can take all that without issue.

just take the ideas-opinions-knowlege of others use what ever u want too and stop turning everything into a issue, most of the time i dont even want to respond too this crap just casue i know ill get the competely wrong reaction/freak out.

bah...lol

[DragnDrop]

This is going to get out of hand shortly, so I'm closing the thread.

If anyone still wants to discuss chameleon dreams, start another discussion, but KEEP IT ON TOPIC!
If having alternate theories pointed out to you goes against the grain, then don't chime in with your theories to begin with.
And let's keep the subtle digs out, no matter how (in)appropriate they might be.