Any way to tell 100% Het Pied ?

[satfreebie]

I was looking into buying a pair of Het Pieds, They are supposed to be 100% but I wanted to know if there was anyway for me to tell or are they like Het Albino where they just look like normals?

Thanks Guys and Girls

[HumphreyBoagart]

Nope they just look like "normals". You just gotta trust the person you are getting them from.
Hump.

[greenman1867]

Apparently there are Markers, but I have not clue, I am hoping some more knowledgable person could post a couple pics pointing out these markers. Even then I suspect nothing is certain.

[mykee]

All hets look like normals, unless you buy into the "marker" thing. Make sure that the breeder you buy from is legit, that's how you can tell they're hets.

[MarcB]

The marker trait on Het-Pieds is big marketing BS, get them from a reputable breeder and sleep better at night, markers or not...

[HumphreyBoagart]

If there was markers, would that make them homozygous, not heterozygous?
It only makes sense.
I had a male ball that had one of these "markers", I knew it was het for piebald! Damn I shouldn't have sold it! J/K
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/4675spot.jpg

[mykee]

Humphrey, that isn't a het pied marker, it's a ringer. The (supposed)belly pattern is the marker for a het pied.

[HumphreyBoagart]

I know, I was just joking!
It was a very low white piebald! LOL!
Hump.

[Spirit]

The only "real" marker that I know of is the solid black line that runs along either side of the belly. As far as I know, this has yet to be proven to be a true sign of het for pied.

My snake is 50% poss het pied (I think... one parent was pied), but does not have those markers. His sister however, had white "patches" similar to the ones in your pic (Hump), but much larger and VERY white. She also had the supposed belly markers.

Ringer, Mykee? Sorry, I'm unfamiliar with that term.

[HumphreyBoagart]

Spirit if one of the parents is a piebald, that would make it 100% het. Not 50%.

edit-Mykee is right, it's a ringer. Although I've been told it was a "bullseye" ball too. Some people say it's the same thing, some people say there's a difference. Ralph Davis told me there is a difference, however, I don't know what it is. Maybe someone could post pics of the difference?

[Spirit]

Maybe the parent was het pied? I never was good at this genetic thing.

At any rate, my ball, as far as I can tell, does not carry the marker (but his sister definitely does). That was the only point I was trying to make.

Okay so what's a ringer? (and a bullseye?)

[pythonmdk]

I've read that only certain lines of pied have the markers not all lines. Don't know for sure if that's true but thought I would add it, I can't wait to get my het pied male, I hope I can afford him this summer.

[HumphreyBoagart]

Spirit: See picture above

[Spirit]

Originally posted by HumphreyBoagart
Spirit: See picture above

HAHAHA! Smartass. :p

I may not know what it is, but I know what it looks like! :D

[HumphreyBoagart]

Wasn't trying to be a smartass. You asked, and I told.
Hump.

[mykee]

Humphrey, the difference is if one of the "Big Breeders" owns a ringer, it's a marker for pied, and if you own it, it's just a ringer.

[Spirit]

But what IS a ringer, exactly? Is it JUST a marking on the saddle? Is it supposed to signify a possible het for something, or something else?

I know what it looks like... still not too sure what it is (or isn't). LOL

[HumphreyBoagart]

Originally posted by mykee
Humphrey, the difference is if one of the "Big Breeders" owns a ringer, it's a marker for pied, and if you own it, it's just a ringer.

LOL! I had that feeling!

Spirit: It is a white spot or spots on the snake. It isn't a blue spot or spots on the snake. It isn't a green spot or spots on the snake. It isn't a purple spot or spots on the snake. *sigh* I could go on all day!

Hump.
PS Now I'm being a smartass!:D

[atw]

If you search for 'pied marker' on this site you will come up with these threads that describe the marker in more detail:

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58535&highlight=pied+marker

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50376&highlight=pied+marker

[HumphreyBoagart]

Well if those stripes mean het for pied, I've got a whack of het for pieds. Males and females. YAY for me! I'll take pics later.

Hump.
PS. BTW I don't actually think they are hets, but they have these "markers".

[atw]

I am not interested in debating the validity of the marker theory especially since I don't have any pieds or hets... I was just passing on information.

Regardless, your reasoning is specious: just because you have some non-het snakes with the 'marker' this does not mean that some or all het peids do not have the 'marker.'

Consider this: all humans have hearts but it does not follow that a dog is a human just because it has a heart. This is the logic behind your sarcastic post.

P.S.
I also have one with the 'marker.'

[HumphreyBoagart]

LOL!
I am sorry you took it personal, I appreciate you passing on the info.
I am not interested in debating the validity either. I was joking because I have a bunch with this "marker". I am sorry to have a sense of humour, I didn't realize til now that I was the only one with one. Or maybe that's just a marker for @$$#0LE! LOL!

[mykee]

Atw; relax, either learn how to take a joke, or visit the "other" forum where rude, obnoxious behavior is not only tolerated but welcomed.

[HumphreyBoagart]

Originally posted by HumphreyBoagart
Well if those stripes mean het for pied, I've got a whack of het for pieds. Males and females. YAY for me! I'll take pics later.

Hump.
PS. BTW I don't actually think they are hets, but they have these "markers".

ATW: Reread this post INCLUDING the PS part.

[HumphreyBoagart]

Here is just one of my many ball pythons with this "marker".
He is a Black back.

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/5491BlackbackBelly.JPG

[greenman1867]

Hey Thanks Hump, I have never seen a belly like that. Not that i was really looking. If it is or is not a "marker" it looks cool.

[HumphreyBoagart]

Hey no problem Shawn! Glad you like his belly! There's a full body pic of him in my gallery gettin' cozy with his girlie-friend!
They're both blackbacks.

Humpty Hump.

[JDouglas]

Yes that is exacclty what a pied marker looks like but many normals have this too. Also many pieds have been produced from hets that don't have this marker. Is it all a bunch of BS? I don't know but my 4 hets came from very reputable breeders and they all have the markers.

[HumphreyBoagart]

Right on. I have a good feeling about this guy beeing something other than a normal. He is a black back, but the black is reddish like the red axanthics. That would be killer if it ended up being a piebald het or something like that. Is it a marker for anything else, or just piebalds? Now you've got me all hyped up about that! I wish I knew if it was a marker for something or not! AHHHHHH!!!! LOL
I guess I'll have to wait and see. : )

[RandyRemington]

Where did you get him? I would expect there to be a fair number of ch het pieds sprinkled in the huge number imported every year but at this point a lot of cb possible het pied male probably get sold as normals too. I bet most of your other assumed normals with marker tendencies aren't as pronounced as him (nice wide stripes etc.). Let us know if it seems to get passed on to about half of his offspring or not.

[HumphreyBoagart]

I'm liking the sounds of that!
I'll check out the other ones to see how pronounced they are.
So I take it these markers are only markers for piebald and no other hets then?
Thanks for the replies, keep em comin', I need all the opinions I can get on this matter.
Thanks
Hump.
PS Good thing I didn't sell him a while back!

[RandyRemington]

Hard to say about other morphs, I don't really have the experience with for sure hets. Pied is the only one that is well documented in the online community.

Of course if you are really serious about working toward a pied project the 100% het males are really reasonable now days so it probably doesn't make since to bank on this guy but if you are going to breed him anyway it sounds fun to find out.

[BP-R-US]

Everything sounds really good, I was gonna get a set of Het Pieds too and this post really helps.

Thanks Guys

[Spirit]

As previously stated though, the markers mean very little. My ball is 100% het for pied and does not have the marker, wheras a friend of mine's ball is NOT het for pied, and has the marker.

Another point though (if not already stated) is the so called marker is only "valid" (for lack of a better word) if the marker is a solid black (not grey) and the belly is white (and not off-white or grey).

I had a really good example pic, but I can't seem to find it. When I do, I'll post it here.

Edited to add picture:

I found this pic on a thread over at Fauna, but the thread is 151 pages long, so I hope the photographer doesn't mind that I'm linking hispost here as an example.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showpost.php?p=105219&postcount=594

[nita]

My het pied does not have the marker but I trust the breeder so I know he is a het pied. When dealing with hets make sure you know who you are buying from and their reputation.

[HumphreyBoagart]

Randy,
Thanks for the info. I was already breeding him to another black back to try and prove that out (pic of them in my gallery if your interested in seeing them), but if some pieds wanna come along for the ride, thats fine by me! :D

Spirit,
It IS black stripes down the side, and it IS a white belly.
Who did you get your het Piebald from?

Hump.

[Thor&Dash]

i have recently purchased a bp with a "ringer" mark coming up from his belly. i was told that he mayproduce a "pied". Although i am not expecting anything but it would be nice. Now about the black line on the belly of the snake (as mentioned above) is it a solid line or can it be broken as well my "ringer" also has consistant black markings through out his belly ... should i be expecting more then just normal offspring?

Jay

[HumphreyBoagart]

If he is het for piebald, he would have to be bred to either a het female or an actual piebald to get anything other than normal babies.

[JCReptile]

Piebald is a recessive gene meaning that if the snake is het it can only look normal.

[HumphreyBoagart]

That is correct, but is is debated that there are certain markers on certain hets.

[peterm15]

heres a question for some of you ppl.. im looking into getting a male het for pied.. ( in a few mnths ) anyone know anyone trustworthy

[knight45]

if a gene is recessive, it will not show up in anyway on a het. if a so called marker show up that would mean that the gene would be responsible for it and that would make it dominate, but pied is prouven recessive. there is only two ways something can show up.
1. a gene is ressieve and the animal is a homo zygote
2. a gene is dominate and the animal is either a hetro or homo zygote. thats it.

[RandyRemington]

It's starting to look like in the real world things aren't always so cut and dry as the textbook definitions of recessive vs. dominant.

There is pretty good evidence for the sporadic appearance of markers in hets of the Burmese python mutations of Green and Granite and also in the Ball python piebald mutation. Exactly why a gene would sometimes act a little co-dominant but other times recessive I don't know but it sure seems to be possible.

[HumphreyBoagart]

Another example of this would be the yellow bellies, which are actually het Ivory.

[HetForHuman]

Originally posted by peterm15
heres a question for some of you ppl.. im looking into getting a male het for pied.. ( in a few mnths ) anyone know anyone trustworthy

Corey Woods

[pythonmdk]

I heard that what happend is somewhere early on the pied trait got linked to the belly markings, its not 100% but hey, what is.

[peterm15]

Originally posted by HetForHuman
Corey Woods

thanks alot tim

[peterm15]

sorry guys im on a screwy lap top it clicked for me

[peterm15]

this has got to be a record

[peterm15]

sorry quad post

[RandyRemington]

I don't think yellow belly would be an example of the same thing. As far as I know, the hets for Ivory are always yellow bellies making it consistently a co-dominant trait. What we are talking about with pied and the burms is a trait that is considered recessive but sometimes has co-dominant tendencies.

Perhaps the "pied het marker" is a separate linked gene but to me it looks so much like pied trying to creep up from the belly that I wonder if it isn't the actual pied gene doing it. I believe that pieds always have white bellies and the white dorsal areas creep up from the belly at the edges. Also the two black lines in the "normal" areas on pieds might correspond with the black lines at the edge of the belly in the het markers.