can i use "wild" wood in my cages?

[king nick]

I live out in the sticks (country) and there are lots of old dead oak trees here that Im really tempted to take a piece and ut it in with one of my snakes cages. Is there a way to clean the wood so its safe 2 use, all the barks gone so it would be perfect.

nick

[Omega Red]

maybe you could try freezing it - that would kill any bacteria that may be on it.
i'm not sure though, hopefully someone has a definitive answer.

[Shad0w]

I use wild wood.. but I wash and then bake them in the oven for 3 hours before I use them.

If you do the same.. be careful not to start a fire :)

I usually have the oven set to 350.

[latazyo]

I just rinse and put it in mine

[Invictus]

Rinsing absolutely will not cut it.

I'd soak it in bleach water for 3 hours, then in SALT water (use sea salt if you can get it, because it has no iodine) for 3 hours. The salt will dilute the chlorine in the bleach.

If you want to maintain 100% of the color, soak it, freeze it for a day, then bake it. What the freezer doesn't kill, the baking will. Soaking and freezing it ahead of time also makes sure that the wood is moist enough to not ignite in the oven. :)

If you want to smooth it out, you'll have to get it sandblasted, or spend a good deal of time with a power sander. I'd also recommend sealing it with polyeurethane if the enclosure will have moisture - wood can grow mold like a sonofabitch.

[havenbounce]

Ken you are so right. You should always soak things in a bleach water solution. (this also works on cages that might have housed sick animals before and it's the only thing that will kill parvo ...a fatal puppy illness) I never thought of the salt soaking after to get some on the bleach out though...Thanks Ken. I'll have to try that one.
Ginnette

[WALTER]

Ok lets get real here. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
You think they do anything special for the wood you get in the store? They wash it. Then it sits in a warehouse just to be contaminated again by other stuff.
Depending how big the wood is, just bleach it, then rinse in hot or boiling water. Freezing will not do anything, since what ever is living in the wood during the summer does usually survive the winter.
I bleach then put in the shower on just hot water for about 10-15 min. Never had a problem and been doing it that way for years.

[DragnDrop]

Reading about what you all do to deparasitize wild caught wood makes me want to only use CB branches ;)

Like Walter said, let's get real.

Bugs will be easily seen, they'll be under the bark or leave holes and tunnels. A solid branch or log with no holes or decay will be solid wood through and through, no need to kill off cooties inside, it's wood. Anything that can live inside this solid wood would be bacteria, virus and the like - and just plain rinsing with hot water, boiling for a few hours or freezing in a home freezer isn't going to kill them off - they survived all winter in the wild, and in Canada it's guaranteed colder out there for longer during the winter than a few days in the typical freezer. How long does it take to boil a chunk of wood to get the inside temperature hot enough to kill off parasites and germs?

Get a good solid log or branch, no bug tunnels, no rot nor decay, a nice solid chunk. If you want the bark left on, then rinse off the outside dirt, spider webs, cocoons etc. As long as the bark is firmly attached, it's okay to use, if it's loose there could be bugs hiding behind it, so remove the bugs or bark or get another piece.

I've used wild caught branches, logs and bark for at least a decade, and never had a problem. I make sure it's in good condition, then just scrape and rinse all the crud off. Once it's dry, I use it.

[Shad0w]

LOL WC vs CB branches.. I LOVE IT :D

[latazyo]

thanks Walter and Dragon

certainly we could assume that a person would have the common sense to not use a piece of living wood or a piece of wood that is all covered in mud down by the river

most of it is dry driftwood, which looks better anyways...give it a rinse and watch the mud and paranoia go down the drain

I believe your decade of experience speaks more than heresay about the dangers of wild caught wood

On a non-paranoid side note, bleaching the wood makes it a little brighter and better looking in my opinion, but I'd never bleach to "sanitize" it

[joey]

I'd be afraid of the chemical residue left from the bleach...nasty s***. Where I live there are nice branches everywhere---the best are the ones that have no bark what-so-ever.....very clean, dry and solid. My snakies love to climb on them. "WC" branches are the best. lol

[Invictus]

The "chemical residue" you speak of is chlorine... which is solved by soaking it in salt water.

The risk of using wildwood is not the obvious parasites and ticks, it's the microbial life that exists on it. If you want to take your chances by just rinsing it, go ahead. I'd never do that.

[DragnDrop]

Chlorine is actually very unstable, it will self-destruct if you leave it alone. Just airing out the branch for a day will get rid of the residual chlorine, or you can neutralize it immediately with vinegar. Soaking in plain water will work too. If salt water solves the chlorine residue, then would there be any need to dechlorinate water for marine tanks?

[Invictus]

DOH! All this time I've been saying to use salt water, and what I was really supposed to be suggesting was vinegar. I know there is a reason to use salt water after bleaching though.. it was told to me by a science teacher. But damned if I can remember what that reason is.

As soon as you mentioned dechlorinating marine tanks, I got to thinking back to my geology classes... and remembered that salt, also called Halite in its rock form, is NaCl. In other words, the salt already HAS chlorine. Maybe the reason to use saltwater instead of normal water is that it stabilizes the chlorine levels in the surface of what you're cleaning?? Damnit, I can't remember now.

I have some reading to do and a science teacher to contact.

[Stockwell]

Wow....such over cautious soles some of you are..
I use old elm branches, just the way I find them.... I don't wash them, bleach them or treat them in any way at all. I don't do a damn thing to them... except cut them so they fit the cage. I've been doing this for years, and I have never had any problems. I might add that for over 15 years I kept about 300 breeding stock on Western bark that is Redwood and Sequoia nuggets, and that stuff is kept outside at garden centres and gets all kind of weird flies and stuff in it.... I never washed it either, as it would have been impracticle. And yes I got a few flies, which is more of a human annoyance than it is a worry to the animals welfare.
There are likely no detrimental pathogens on our dead forest stock that would effect the mostly tropical animals we keep....The chances of it are so low it makes trying to sanitize it a waste of time...
The same goes for bark and rocks...
I gather bark all the time for my Rosies. I like it better than plastic saucers because its long and alows better thermal regulation underneath, than a round hide.
Gathering bark gives the bride and I an excuse for exercise in the park. I never wash it. I have a thick paint brush I use simply to knock the dusty stuff off.. and I will occasionally use a dremel tool with cutting disc to chop it to size but I never clean it.
Gag, washing, baking, showering, bleaching.... who needs the extra work...
So I get the odd little centipede or pill bug in my trays...Its no big deal, they either find their way out or perish, certainly wont hurt the herps.
And PS
I don't really clean cages either . I use particulate substrates (Beta and Alpha chip)and spot clean by removing clumps of feces and sheds only. I generally replace all the substrate only once a year, after breeding season.
I use the deli container Hollister method for most of my water bowls. ie disposable. It's not exactly environmentally friendly, but it saves alot of time if you have a large collection.
I still use some Dollarama ramekin bowls for baby snakes... and I must say, washing them is a huge pain... I'll be looking to replace that method some small condiment cups this season, so they will be disposable as well... Simon and others with high numbers of small snakes are using this technique rather than bowls, simply as a time saver.
My years of spending all weekend cleaning cages, ornaments and water bowls are long gone, but I've been there.

[havenbounce]

Depending on where you find the wood I would be more worried about the pesticides that some people use. If the wood is found in someone's yard or new a park than the odds that it might have been around some type of pesticide would be high and that is why I would use some bleach than rinsing.
Ginnette

[C.ADAMANTEUS]

The Polyurethane is the best Idea in my oppinion.
A good couple coats to make sure it is completely sealed, and no worries. Its sealed, and its easy to clean after that, and you dont have to worry about moisture and creating mold after that either.
Rick

[latazyo]

I guess I would think that our regions would make a difference too

for me, I have never thought of mold being a problem because where I live (North Dakota) my ambient relative humidity (indoors) is usually 20-50%

I can see how that may play a role farther south for some users from Florida or other more moist reasons

I am sure that the woodland fauna vary tremendously, too

I guess my thinkings on paranoia may have been a little strong, but I still maintain that there is no need to back or freeze or bleach or sandblast wood (unless of course, for looks)

[Kyle Barker]

i would think type of animal would make a diff as well...i certainly would not be using teh chemicals mentioned if i were to be putting it into a frog tank. i usually wash and let sit in direct sun for a few days. aint too much to worry about where i live though, as far as parasites are concerned. mold is always happening here due to humidity, but as mentioned sealign will stop that in its tracks.

[Aug]

Just heat the wood beyond 180 degress celcius for around 3 hours sounds good. I dont remember what the half life for bacteria survival is, but i think at 1 hours at 180 degress will kill 99.999%, the curve goes asymptotic. So even at infinity, you'll still have bacteria.

Baking the wood, would be very similar to an autoclave. Autoclaves are essentially used to sterizle lab tools. Though they use high pressure. The pressure really does nothing to kill bacteria, but is used to increase temperature.

In addition, i've read a lot of confusion concerning chlorine. Chlorine in water is not reactive. Much of what you eat has chlorine. NaCl, is everyday stuff. Also, using salt to kill bacteria will NOT work. Salts attempt to dehydrate bacteria. However, bacteria have a defence mechanism known as sporulation. Essentially, the bacteria goes dorment and retains only about 10% water.

Anyways, if you are using wood from forests etc, bake it. Autoclaves are the best way for sterilizing anything. That goes for both bacteria and viruses.

Then again, if you breath... your breathing in bacteria, and viruses... 80% of us have herpes simplex 1. Though, 90% of us have CMV. We all have E. coli in our gut.

i could go on...

[dannyc]

Well I guess I did it all wrong. I just walked to the back yard which is covered in woods and thick with young hickorys. Found one about 3" dia and cut it down. Cut it in the lengths I wanted. Used dowl rod to hold it in the shape I want and put it in the enclosure. I later read you're supposed to bake at 300 degrees for a couple of hours. Oh well. So for no bugs and the snakes are happy and healthy. :)

[Kyle Barker]

well if you cut it live then there shoudltnt be too much worry. although i personally dotn agree with cutting it live. but i wont preach.

id say baking fresh wood is not needed if you are in a colder climate. to be honest i have no clue what virginia climate is like.

[eddiezahra]

ya i soak mine in vinegar over night, let it dry, then boiling water, then a little scrub then bake for about an hour at 350-375

[galad]

Umm maybe this is me not thinking straight.
But don't these animals live in the woods in the wild? It's not treated with anything. As long as there is no pesticides used in the area as mentioned before everything should be all good.

peace

[striko_69]

Yes but in the wild snakes and lizards still get diseases and die. In captivity we as human beings know how these can be avoided.

What do we do to the wood if it does not fit in the oven?

There is a pic of this piece of wood I found in my gallery, its too big to fit in my oven.

[ccarr1]

I got a piece of wood that was dead froma tree.I didn't wash or put it in oven and my snake is perfectly fine.

[striko_69]

So some people think that we could just put it in the tank after rinsing it. Others say that a good bake will do. So would a good bake do any harm? no... so I think that the best thing would be to bake the thing.

It has woodworm, i dont want woodworm everywhere... So I guess baking will kill them? Then is the bacteria that is left over a problem?

All i did with my beardies was soak it in hot miltons dilute solution and then soaked it in plain water to get rid of most of the solution, it did not smell when it was dried out so i put it in, they were fine.

[ccarr1]

To each his own!!!!!!!

[K1LOS]

striko is right. When you see these huge logs in varanid and giant snake enclosures, how were they sanitized? they likely weren't.splashing bleach on it wouldn't be penetrating enough, you'd just be adding harsh chemica;s. water will do nothing but take off dirt, unless you are soaking in boiling water, but who has a pot that big? nobody. the fact is, most likely you will be alright, as long as you choose your wood wisely. But, dont forget that something could happen and be mindful of that.


does anybody know of any incidents of wc wood causing problems? ivenever heard any.

(wow its tuff typing while holdin a snake. one handed typing sux)

Geoff

[striko_69]

lol!! Yeah i havent ever heard anything but then again most people use logs of size that can be "cleaned". I know i have put logs in that have just been found dry and bug free (i guess as there were no holes or such). To be honest they do have immune systems, and like our they stop many infections of all sorts from occuring. So i dont think that putting wood from the wild is gonna be a problem however their immune systems are not developed to be resistant to local bacteria. So I guess im contradicting myself now. Saying that they have been bred and colonised in america/europe for a while now and have probably been exposed to all sorts, and so probably have come in contact with these different bacteria before. This means im contradicting myself again.

Anyone with a degree in microbiology and veterinary science around? I only do A level biology!

[galad]

Deff to each their own. But why go through all the trouble?
a solid peice of wood with no insect holes in a environment that does not use pesticides is all you really need.
Its not like wood contains the black plague or anything, people worry way to much.
Anouther member on this site said he has used wild wood untreated for decades with not one single probleme.
You just have to be smart about the wood you are choosing.

A freind of mine is studying microbiology I'll see what he has to say on the matter.

peace
ws

[C.ADAMANTEUS]

Originally posted by galad
Anouther member on this site said he has used wild wood untreated for decades with not one single probleme.
You just have to be smart about the wood you are choosing.

A freind of mine is studying microbiology I'll see what he has to say on the matter.

peace
ws

Not everyone here is a "wood-ologist". they may not know the "good" stuff, from the bad. Thats why he's asking for oppinions. People have tried, and shared their many Ideas.
IMO either the person you mentioned has either been lucky, or perhaps lives in a prime area where such problems are at a minimum.
I think he's smart to at least ask others, instead of going into it with NO worry about his pet at all.

Ciao,
Rick

[striko_69]

Whoa chill out dude, we're just saying we dont think that there is a great risk. Branches come from trees which dont harbour parasites made for reptiles (i'm in england we have few wild reptiles).

[C.ADAMANTEUS]

Did not mean to sound abrupt. Perhaps i'm guilty of sarcasm.
My point being this. King Nick cares enough about his pet tp inquire as to what others have done in the same situation.
I here MANY (including Me) saying to sterilize, clean, or otherwise seal the wood. Are we all "worrying too much"?
There are other things harmful to herps besides parasites MEANT for herps.
If is grows some kind of mold, or something that releases spores. Not so concentrated in the wild, but in an enclosed VIV, the PPM count goes way up, and more chance of inhalation. Some may be dangerous in higher quantities.

Perhaps a drastic example, but like so many have already said....Why even take the chance. better safe than sorry.
Basically to be cautious.

Just my $0.02

Rick

[striko_69]

Yes i think that there probably is good reason to sterilise all logs and such. The reason is because of things like what you sed rick, these things do happen. I think the extra effort of sterilising the branches helps but when the branches are way too big to be sterilised, it becomes a less than needed job when the risk factor is thought to be very low. Of course as soon as any strange behaviour is noted the branches should be the first to be replaced as they would be the only variable.

Branches should always be replaced as soon as mould or any other substance are "growing" on them. Otherwise if the branches look okay i'm sure they dont pose that great a risk.

[Kyle Barker]

i do agree that sterilising is good. but i think many people over do it. parasites haev been covered hundreds of times.

with moulds and such...the problem isnt going away with just sterilising the wood. if anyone here is into mycology you will undoubtedly know tons about moulds. their spores are everywhere. litterally. within seconds fo taking it out of oven/bleach whatever there will be new spores on that log. the problem lies more with the mold maturing and spreading its millions/billions of spores all over the place. once you see mould, its probably been there for a while (days-weeks). its usually the spores that are going to cause health problems so just be sure to get rid of it once it becomes macro'd.

[boas_and_such]

i think if i were going to use wild wood i would do what Ken suggested...

i don't think i would take the chance of anything surviving...

i always try to take great caution when dealing with my herps and i think going that extra mile in this case would be a very good idea...

[striko_69]

Well i think that to sterilise any logs that you can is a good idea but what do we do when the logs are the size of say my leg? I tried sterilising some bark i found, and a piece of grapevine. Without realising my aga oven was way too hot at the top, then realising that the grapevine had been toasted lol. The bark underneath was fine though. I think perhaps it is a good idea to sterilise anything you can but when you cant is it really that bad?

[ccarr1]

Everyone has there own opinion.Think about it for awhile;these snakes generations have lived in the woods.There hasn't been anybody there to delute any branches for them.There is a limit to how much is too much.I love my snakes but there's a limit to how much you can make it safe for them!!!I just think that going through such a process is too much.Like someone said earlier,you hav e to watch what kind of wood you pick up.

[DragnDrop]

If you're going to sterilize all the branches, wood and bark, go ahead, don't let me stop you. However, don't get a false sense of security that all is well.... just because the wood has been baked, boiled, sanitized, chemically assulted and drowned in bleach.
The minute you allow some air to get at it, you'll have a fresh batch of spores landing on it - mold, mildew, fungus, mushrooms and moss. Let the resident herp poop on it and you've got another whole branch of the Tree of Life taking hold, growing or festering in the cracks and crevices.

You'll never get it CLEAN as you think you can.
And it will never stay that way if you take it out of the oven .... the cooking pot ..... the autoclave...

[C.ADAMANTEUS]

But if you can seal it, than it wont get air, moisture, repti-pooh, on it. Polyeurethane does wonders, however you need to have fairly smooth wood....... Even though this horse has been beat already.:D

Rick

[Shane Tesser]

This is a lengthy thread and i admit ive not read all of it. Some pretty varying differences of opinions here. If you will indulge me, being an aquarium guy where we all know that our aquatic friends are perhaps even a bit more sensitive to stuff in their surroundings, ill give you an idea of what i do.

I have in the past done the bake, the bleach, boil, vinegar etc. I have even tried sealing it ( that went very bad in the water lol) What ive found as rule of thumb is that if the wood is very water logged, moist, has mould....especially the white coloured mould....you must at least attempt one of the methods of removal such as bleach or vinegar. If you find the wood to be fairly hard, solid, non mouldy, i usually just clean them with a pressure washer for asthetic reasons only....then throw them in my aquarium......and ive never had a problem...and i keep very sensitive stuff. But the old saying goes that one can never be too careful!

Oh....for the chlorine suggestion. There is actually chlorine stabilizers that are available at aquarium stores. I think i currently pay $8 for a bottle and basically what it does is remove the chlorine. One bottle will remove it from nearly 1000 gallons of water....so unless thats one hell of a big piece of wood, it may be value info to alot of you. Vinegar is the next best choice imo as its a natural product. Hope this helps :)

[Shane Tesser]

This is a lengthy thread and i admit ive not read all of it. Some pretty varying differences of opinions here. If you will indulge me, being an aquarium guy where we all know that our aq

[striko_69]

Hang on i asked earlier what to do with a piece of wood which has woodworm in it. How would you handle parasites in wood? These are however fairly large parasites. And it is a pice of wood of approx (in boxed area shape if you know what i mean) 2.5'x1'x1.5'

I was thinking of cutting it into quarters and then baking each to kill the damn bug. Then sticking it back together with some kind of glue. Any ideas on glue type and that sort of thing?

[galad]

Or you could just not collect wood with wood worm in it, lol.
Any peice of wood that has holes in it or mold on it throw it to the side and look for anouther piece. Most of this is common sence here guys.
Soft wood will easily rott and mold in a moist environment. Even the hardest of wood will rot and mold in a warm wet environment, if you get it from the store or the woods: if you treat it or don't treat it.

Wood in an enclosure needs time to dry off, if it is consantly wet, in the open air you will have problemes. Wood under the water line is quite different.

This thread is doing alot of repeating of its-self.

But really if you have the spare time to wash and bake all the wood you gather go for it. Your certanly not hurtin anyone, if it makes you sleep better at night. Do it.

peace

ws

p.s ccarrl I couldn't agree more.

[striko_69]

Im meaning if i put the wood with woodworm in it will mess up the other bits of wood in there,a nd therefore waste all the wood i have which is silly. I like this piece of wood and really want to use it. It just means i'll have to try hard to et rid of bugs because i dont want extra friends for my herps lol.

[C.ADAMANTEUS]

At risk of repeating, repeating, repeating...........
I dont understand why you would WANT to use a piece of wood, which YOU KNOW is already infested with wood worms.
You know its infested, toss it and get a better one. Yer asking for problems if you use that one.
You can kill the worms, but how are you going to get them out so as not to be leaving the protiens behind, to possibly cause other problems?

But like has been said. This is going on, and on, and on.
I think you have two choices. Either use the wood that you want, or go get another one. You CANNOT completely remove the worms from the wood, you can only kill them, and leave the carcasses inside.

Yer herps, yer money, yer choice.

Ciao,
Rick

[striko_69]

Yes i actually didnt think about the carcasses that would be left behind. But i actually will now go and get another piece i spose thanks guys lol. Now patience... patience...

[TerrorFox]

I used wild sticks, I just used extremely hot water, bleach and soap.