To feed her off or not to feed her off..

[Paleosuchus]

Well, to start off with my female rat ate her last litter. I gave her one more chance and this morning i caught her trying to eat her second litter. This time i managed to get 6 pinkies from her and fed them to my snakes. I went back just 5 minutes ago and she dropped two more. These she is not eating but nursing and protecting. What do you think i should do? Feed this female off tonight, and get a new one. Or see if she has changed her ways? Thanks for any help and advise.

-Jason

[galad]

she might be getting used to the strange pink things in her enclosure, and ectually realizing they are hers. If she is doing good with them I would keep her.

good luck

ws

[vanderkm]

I would replace her - there are plenty of rats with good maternal behaviour that will raise large litters every time. You gave her one more chance than I would have, especially if she is part of a small breeding group - she is just taking up space if she isn't rearing a lot of babies consistently for you,

mary v.

[Rikki]

Rodents first litters may be eaten as its new to them. Though she is finally getting used to the babies and knows they are hers. I would not just "get rid of her" because shes not perfect. She may have ate her second litter due to the fact that she remembers a human ripping her babies from her and murdering them last time, thats why shes aggresive this time more than likley. Im not against feeding rodents to snakes and its a must, but I do think you should at least treat them as a living creature.

[the_frog_man]

i would wait and see if she eats her next litter
but thats jus my opinion i could be wrong




thanx froggy

[Rikki]

I agree, if you would do anything just allow her to take care of her babies, once her babies are a few weeks old she will fend them off, and try to keep them away from her, at this time they are walking and such, you should feed off the babies then if possible. It would be much easier for the mother.

[CamHanna]

Jason - I would call her a cull. As Mary said, there is no shortage of adequate rats and this one, IMO, doesn't make the grade. I would be hesitant to invest three or four weeks of food, shavings, rack-space and time in a female that may kill her next litter. Also, take into consideration the continuity of your colony; she may have some heritable inclination towards this kind of 'mothering' which is probably not something you would like to proliferate in your breeding stock.

Rikki – I believe Jason wrote that the mother killed the first litter on her own. That in mind, I doubt that “She may have ate her second litter due to the fact that she remembers a human ripping her babies from her and murdering them last time”.

Also, in my experience mother rats do not respond to their young being fed off. In my rack I delegate as many pinkies as I can to my better nurses and limit the pinkies fed by my weaker nurses. I certainly haven’t witnessed any emotional stress on the rats as a consequence of this baby stealing/swapping.

Cam

[Rikki]

CamHanna- I stated that rodents often eat their first litter, though the second may have ate them due to stress. Rodents think as humans and other animals, they care for their young which is why they defend them and many often see stress when the babies are taken.

[CHRISANDBOIDS14]

Originally posted by Rikki
CamHanna- I stated that rodents often eat their first litter, though the second may have ate them due to stress.

With mice, any female that ate her litter the first time, and was not bothered also ate the second one and so-on. It isnt something that goes away if they do it again. Though In this case I doubt its from stress as she did it again, and the babies were not "ripped away and murdered".

Im not against feeding rodents to snakes and its a must, but I do think you should at least treat them as a living creature.

How is he not doing that? ALL the feeder's you've used were living creatures.

I say shes had her second chance and feed her off. The babies will be adopted by another mother. As was stated, its not worth the waste of time to see if she does it again.

C.

[Rikki]

I would like to state that this is usually not a continious thing, most mothers will eay their first five litters at times, others not at all. Another mother will not 'adopt' them, the mother would notice the smell of the babies and destroy them. I have no doubt that this person is not taking care of his/her animals, im just saying you shouldnt just toss her away because she ate a litter or two.

[CamHanna]

"most mothers will eay their first five litters at times". That doesn't make sense; "most... at times" is a contradiction, and I'm curious how you obtained this statistic.

I swap babies ALL THE TIME and have very little cannibalism. I have rat mothers nursing baby mice at this very moment.

[Rikki]

You should have read it properly :p

Most new rodent mothers will eat their first few litters, though some do not eat their first littlers.

I have had rodents for some time now and they have always eaten, or tried to eat swaps. You are more than welcome to visit the rodent forums on PetsHub.com many people have discussed it a while back and im sure you can find the topics if you would like. Rodents will often eat their babies if you simply touch them as they do not know the smell and this is the same thing with switching babies... Im tired of arguing with you...

[marisa]

"Most new rodent mothers will eat their first few litters, though some do not eat their first littlers."

Most? I have NEVER had a rat eat a litter. I have NEVER had a rodent eat babies because I touched them. That's a total falsehood. MANY members on this website clean rodent cages the day their rodents give birth, with no ill effects, including me.

Rikki get it straight. We are here to kill and feed rats to our snakes. Yup. Sounds rough put that way but thats what this forum was made for. Discussing breeder rodents marked for snake food. Period. Not culling out a female who eats babies means losing production and losing snake food which means losing money, hobby or not, that counts. Not coming down on you but please stop pushing your PETA-esque thoughts on others who are simply trying to get straight rodents breed for food advice.

As for your female, cull her. Anything that eats babies twice here (never rats for me but mice have) gets put to the snakes because A. Some believe this MIGHT be a trait that can be passed and B. I don't have the time to waste or money feeding mothers who eat young and I always have a hungry snake.

:D :D :D

Marisa

[marisa]

BTW I constantly switch babies. I have even put a rat in with a mouse mother. Yup. It's a TOTALLY common practice to have nursing mothers who will accept other rats/mice babies.

Marisa

[CamHanna]

Rikki
most mothers will eay their first five litters at times
CamHanna
That doesn't make sense; "most... at times" is a contradiction
Rikki
You should have read it properly
Most new rodent mothers will eat their first few litters, though some do not eat their first littlers.
You should have written it properly. Your initial statement and the subsequent rewrite are not synonymous. That aside, this is not a fun debate and I've little more to say; so I suppose I'm tired of 'arguing' with you as well.

Cheers,
Cam

Edit: Marisa gets the big ":thumbsup:" from me.

[Rikki]

Marisa; I am not even a member of PETA and I wish you would stop judging someone because I dare care for an animal. Second of all MANY rodents eat their first litters, you say they dont? Please see the following links for proof.

http://www.animalhospitals-usa.com/small_pets/mice_rats_reproduction.html

http://www.petwebsite.com/breedp.htm

reasons which may cause a female to destroy her own litter are ill health of the babies (she will destroy sickly babies rather than waste effort trying to raise them), extremely large litter (she may reduce the litter size and only rear the number she feels she can cope with), <b>disturbance</b> (she may feel threatened by something nearby), poor condition or health of the female and interference (touching the babies and changing their scent may lead her to believe the babies are not her own but intruders to be killed).

If a female is destroying her litter it is best to leave her alone to settle and try not to disturb her too much. Feeding high protein foods such as cheese, scrambled egg, etc may help her to cope with rearing the litter. If she continues to destroy the litter fostering (see below) may have to be considered if possible.


Female rats should not be disturbed for the first few days after delivery because stressed females may destroy their pups. Excessive handling, loud noises, and even insufficient nesting material have all been implicated with this destructive behavior.

I do not like to argue, I love this community and am not trying to start anything though I cant stand it when some people act like they do. I am NOT AGAINST FEEDING RODENTS TO REPTILES, you are making like I am against it, my monitor eats rodents weekly.

[marisa]

No one said they don't. But you said BOTH. We can't even understand your sentences let alone your logic.

I can't argue with someone so totally out of it in relation to what this forum specifically stands for and who missing the point in almost every reply. You TOTALLY missed my point and you made it clear you missed it by again telling us you feed reptiles rodents. Great. Nothing to do with what I was saying. BREEDERS can DEFINITLY be disturbed. I do it every single litter. Rikki just because it's on the internet doesn't make it true.

I am not going to stop replying because I don't like to argue, I am going to stop replying because I simply cannot even understand your sentences in many of your posts, and because you constantly base judgements on "pet care" instead of feeder breeding which is aimed at a totally different purpose, hence the reason you CULL any rodent that doesn't breed, quick. You clean cages regardless of what's going on in them. Always. If a rodent gets sick, you kill it. Period. This is the way you produce FEEDER rodents. And your intial advice to the thread starter was not aimed at this at all. Again you won't comprehend my point here because you refuse too, but that's all I have to say about it.

Marisa

[Rikki]

Just because its on the internet does not make it a lie either. I did not say they do not eat litters.

[Paleosuchus]

I should not have left the fact out that she has had numerous litters before coming into my home as a breeder as the pet store worker told me, at that time i did not consider asking did she eat the litter nor did the pet store employee mention that. I appreciate all the advise and have decided to feed her off.

As for her having a grudge of seeing her babies getting eaten.(?) I do not believe the pet store held her over the cage while feeding off her litter.

Anyway, thanks again for the advise given.

-Jason

[marisa]

That's a important part of the story.

If the female has had previous litters and just now starting eating them, she is worn out and done. It was a good choice to feed her off. Breeding rodents need to be top notch at all times so you get the most from them and the most for your snakes. I have so far found my females are good for between 5-8 litters each. 8 was pushing it though. After 6 I cull them now.

Marisa

[Paleosuchus]

Yeah i apologize for leaving that out. I had one more question, what is the chances of getting another female such as this? Are most good mothers? Thanks

-Jason

[Rikki]

Marisa there is something we agree on! :p Rats (as most rodents) get to a point where they are no longer able to breed properly and care for the babies, this is more than likley the cause, its best to breed before 5-6 months of age. If you have no other choice; feed her off.

[marisa]

Most rats are good mothers. Get them young. Really young. Breed them for 6 or so litters or until its obvious they are worn. :D

Marisa

[sapphire_moon]

rikki as much as I would love to agree with you this is a feeder forum.
In reality she probably DID eat her babies because a mother would rather kill and eat the babies then see them get taken away (which may be why mice do it, AKA a nervous mother and will do it till she trusts you.) and I would love nothing more than for the rat to be given more and more chances, but this is NOT a pet rat site/forum and must not lose site of that.

BUT as said, if she is not consistantly producing for Paleo then I would wack her, she is taking up food, space, litter, time and eventually money (For taking up all the litter water, and food). That could be being put into a mother rat that is consistant.

Marisa: Every try to raise hamsters? I find that if you touch them when born they eat the entire nest of them quickly afterwards (unless the mother REALLY trusts you) it is even suggested you don't touch the nest/babies/or clean the cage for 2 wks after they are born.

Only 6 litters? I always got about 10 good litters from my girls, or waited until the litters started getting smaller.(when I was breeding ;) lol)

Paleo, female rats are usually great mothers. A bit "grumpy" at times, but good. lol