black and white

[boywithscales]

what is your guys opinions on the difference between blackthroat and whitethroat monitors? Regarding temperment and personal experience with them?
thanx

[SHvar]

Different subspecies..
The BT is a large darker version of the WT as V.a.ionidesi and V.a.microstictus. The WT (V.a.albigularis) ranges from local versions that grow to 4ft plus to almost 7ft in some areas (cape banded WT is usually about 4ft long). BTs come from higher altitude areas closer to the equator and are active longer throughout the year. They are all different by individuals not subspecies when it comes to personalities. The BT can reach 5-7ft plus in length.
Ive seen WTs that are big bluffers as males, sweethearts as male, nasty as males, yets sweethearts as females, and visa versa. Ive seen BTs that are just the same, one male or female is friendly, or not, one is unhandleable, one is a bit skittish etc they are all individuals. You dont want to get bit by them, it hurts bad especially when they get bigger, Ive had a 2ft male WT hang on for over 20 minutes and go 1/4 inch into the flesh. Ive had a cross (Shadow, my male) that at 4ft long broke my middle finger in a bite (just a split second bite and release, while trying to grab a mouse). I dont want to imagine what Sobek could do in a bite, shes never tried to.

[boywithscales]

thanks shvar, so it just comes down to the individual animal?
regular handling every day does help right?

[V.hb]

They're all individuals. IMO you really won't want to handle a 4ft + monitor, it isnt natural. Their claws hang off you, scratch you etc.. just as they're meant to (Climb trees, dig, forage for food etc.. a 4 foot monitor hanging off you by its claws hurts). They're really not meant to be handled, they're fun to work with, feed, setup and WATCH. I own 1 WT and 3 BT's and none of them are aggressive towards me, only if iam holding food. I can approach them, enter their enclosure etc but I dont even bother handling them, I just see little to no point in it.. I personally don't even handle my ackies, or any of my lizards for that matter..

[Gregg M]

V.a.a. does not reach lengths anywhere near 7 foot.... You would be lucky to see one reach 5 foot..... V.a.i. is the only albigularis subspecies to reach close to 7 feet in length and I believe that would be the record.......

[SHvar]

He was over 6ft 10 inches and 39lbs (V.a.albigularis), the record is 7ft 3in for a Microstictus. Every locality of WT grows a bit different. Banded WTs average 4-4.5ft but farther north they average 5ft plus, and in Tanzania they can grow over 6ft. It depends on mostly location, food availability, altitude, yearly average temps etc. The record at 7ft 3 inches was one wild caught BT and also matched later by one (ionidesi) in captivity at 7ft 3 inches and supposedly 53lbs (a bit high estimate).

[Gregg M]

Titan was V. a. ionidesi not V. a. albigularis...... In Tanzania you only find V. a. ionidesi...... V. a. albigularis is not found in Tanzania..... Also V. a. microstictus averages around 4 feet or so and has never past the 6 foot mark..... I think you need to get your subspecies and localities straight..... Not trying to be rude, just a suggestion.....

[SHvar]

As a matter of fact, ask Jeff Lemm which species Titan was, better yet look at a picture of Titan, he was V.a.albigularis, its so obvious, thats what species the San Diego Zoo keeps. Also, ask Mark Bayless about which species Titan is and about the female Microstictus he had at 6ft 2 inches long, and ask him about the record held by a male Microstictus 7ft 3 inches (wild caught matched later by a LTC Ionidesi).
Another example that floated the internet for years is the Microstictus that Prehistoric pets posted (theres a guy holding him for size reference). The average size of V.a.albigularis adults found in Kruger national park was between 5-6ft.
By all means ask Mark Bayless for references to species, and ask about the size of albigularis and microstictus. The only commonly small members of albigs are cape banded WTs which average about 4-4.5ft, some larger.
There was a photo of Titan in Reptiles magazine years ago with Jeff Lemms wife and son in the picture with his size and weight listed, also species.
This is one local version of a V.a.albigularis thats still young and 5ft, 17lbs. This pic is about a year old soon.
http://shenderson1.photosite.com/~photos/tn/2025_1024.ts1097818465000.jpg
This is a cape banded WT at just over 3.5ft long and still growing.
http://shenderson1.photosite.com/~photos/tn/2735_1024.ts1109717548000.jpg
This is a young albigularis a good friend had, it now resides in Puerto Rico.
http://shenderson1.photosite.com/~photos/tn/2162_1024.ts1098779112182.jpg
This is an old picture of a young Ionidesi..
http://shenderson1.photosite.com/~photos/tn/887_1024.ts1032666323000.jpg
Identify this species for the heck of it (BT/WT/WT cross), this is a cross between an ionidesi female and an albigularis male, then the male albigularis was crossed back with one female offspring producing this pretty girl and many others. I have a first generation BT/WT cross and one like this..
http://shenderson1.photosite.com/~photos/tn/754_1024.ts1027012862000.jpg
This is the first generation male cross I have..
http://shenderson1.photosite.com/~photos/tn/2502_1024.ts1104131770000.jpg
This is a newer picture of the second generation female cross (female) at over 6ft 3 inches long...
http://shenderson1.photosite.com/~photos/tn/2640_1024.ts1107150410000.jpg
http://shenderson1.photosite.com/~photos/tn/2643_1024.ts1107150474000.jpg http://shenderson1.photosite.com/~photos/tn/2551_1024.ts1104814201000.jpg
This last pic has Sobek and zeus together.
This one is about 6 months old when she was almost 2 inches shorter.
http://shenderson1.photosite.com/~photos/tn/2290_1024.ts1100254370000.jpg

[SHvar]

When he was still alive, this is a pic from Pete Zulpich website. V.a.albigularis.http://users.adelphia.net/~zupich/15.JPG
Look in the front of "Varanoid Lizards of the world" theres a pic of Titan with the author (the late Dennis King).
I can find more pics of Titan if I really looked.

[Gregg M]

If I am not mistaken, looking back on some papers sent to me by Mark, that supposed wild caught record of 7 foot 3 was actually based on a skull and not an actual living animal....

[SHvar]

As I said though, ask about that animal, about Titan, what species, size, and ask Jeff Lemm.
I know there was a 7ft 3 inch male Ionidesi, because I saw it in person 3 days before he was put on national television, it was a long term captive. But I could find the quote if I look through some discs of Mark stating the 7ft 3 inch Microstictus was a wild caught animal not a skull. I will try to get the page number and edition number with the article on albigularis in reptile magazine that has Titan pic and measurements. I just have to look through a few magazines to find it.
So far with few exceptions all of the largest monitors by species have been wild caught adults.

[V.hb]

I always thought microstictus remain smaller than normal albigularus. 4 ft being the average.. I'am by no means an expert but 7'3 micro seems really odd to me.. where was that recorded?? musta been an impressive animal, I find micros possess some of the more striking patterning.

[SHvar]

Microstictus indentification as one person to the next identifies them all differently. I finally got a description from a few people Mark Bayless, Harold Deisle, etc. Basically according to them the blackthroat is divided in to 2 subspecies, the microstictus and another which has lighter colored markings on the background of the neck and belly. The micro according to these descriptions is a BT with a darker background and less colorful. I would have to find the reference agin. I was told that many people identify the albigularis with darker markings as a microstictus, but this is a misidentification.
When I referenced Microstictus from Mark, I referenced it from his quote, I didnt see the animal myself, but the big Ionides I did. The picture that prehistoric pets has floating around of a huge micro shouldnt be too hard to find, Ive seen that pic many times..

[Gregg M]

V.hb, you are correct in your thinking...... Micros do not get anywhere near the size ionidesi gets to....... Like I said SHvar, I am not trying to be a wiseguy..... I honestly think you have microstictus and ionidesi confused...... Ionidesi is the largest subspecies of albigularis...... That is where you will find your 6 to close to 7 foot animals..... That big albgularis skull was found in Tanzania which leads me to believe it was an ionidesi as well......

Also, ionidesi can be very dark in coloration, depending on elevation..... The dark coloration does not make them microstictus.....

I believe that microstictus are lacking the eye stripe or the top coloration is just masking the eye stripe......

Also SHvar, your animals are awesome by the way....

[SHvar]

Or more acuately reclassified them, the Microstictus and Ionidesi are different locals versions of BT found in Tanzania, and a few other countries, as I said ask Bayless to answer this for us. Going by Bayless and DeIsles desrciptions and pictures, also by a Micro identified by Bayless on a Prehistoric pets picture, its a BT thats darker, with alot less coloration like the Ionidesi. They do get 6ft plus, ask Bayless about his female Micro.

[SHvar]

I asked for away to tell them apart and as to which is which, this was the answer I got, I also have another quote that provides localities for each subspecies, guess where Micros are found as well Ionidesi, and Albigularis? Tanzania, Albigs are found with completely different colors, patterns, and subspecies etc only a few hundred meters apart in some or many places. Here the 2 quotes are.

"Hi Shvar,
I read your post below on where to find info on V.a. ionidesi, and that is easy.

In 1963 Dr. Raymond Laurent was examining some juvenile V. albigularis from southern Tanzania. He noticed their markings differ from other forms of V. albigularis (microstictus) seen in Tanzania (they range from coastal Egypt to Mozambique and inland as far as Lake Victoria and Lake Tanganyika).

When I corresponded with Dr. Laurent, one of the 'Old Guard' Field Herpetologists who explored Africa with De Witte, Loveridge, Ionides, Pitman, FitzSimons (father and son), and a host of other herpetologists, he had many Varanus in his 60 years of exploration. He is a terribly nice and generous man, and gladly shares what he can; he is in his 80's now, so has slowed down abit. That is why I dedicated my African varanus distribution paper to him.

Anyways, he wrote a paper in 1964 describing the subspecies V.e. ionidesi in: Breviora, 199:1-8. Ask the librarian to help you find that journal title, and its easy...or send me $2.00 and I will post it to you....

Cheers Shvar,
markb"

"the pet shop names are just arbitrary names for the most part - what they call them today would change tomorrow if they can get
1$ more for them...today: black throats; tomorrow: white throats; next day: Ionides cape monitors...etc...

You can look at any regional V. albigularis you wish (as I have): Cape (V.a. albigularis) [RSA]; Transvaal types (V.a. albigularis)[RSA]; Port Lucie, V.a. albigularis [Mozambique]; Gaberone, V.a. albigularis [Botswana]; Port Harald, V.a. albigularis [Malawi]; Dar-es-salaam, V.a. albigularis/V.a. microstictus [Tanzania]; Windhoek, V.a. albigularis [Namibia]; Dondo, V.a. angolensis, [Angola]; Tsavo National Park, V.a. microstictus, [Kenya]; Lake Rudolf, V.a. microstictus, [Kenya];
Ethiopian, V.a. microstictus; Djibouti, V.a. microstictus/V. yemenesis; Mersa Matruh, V.a. albigularis, [Egypt] and their skull structures = ALL of them are Identical in every way in adults....what does this tell you? It tells me they are all the same species and ecological vicariances dictates phenotype morphology, but osteologically, they are monotypic = 1 species across the Continent (Bayless & Sprackland, 2000a-b. Reptiles Magazine, June-July).

So reptile keepers can use all the names they want, when 1 has looked at so many live/dead/dying/way deceased/museum specimens going back to 1860's (as Regenia occellata), and looked at skulls from all of the aforementioned localities and many others (Bayless, 2002, J. of Biogeography 29:1643-1701) one begins to see that what looking at an albigularis is just more than looking at skin type, color/pattern, teeth types (= 2), hemipenes/hemiclitorii, banding, spotting, shere bulk, tongue colors, you see a vast variety of types - and types virtually unknown that defy almost anyones imagination of types I have seen live that come from a 20 sq. km range 'somewhere' in Africa (I know where), the variety is tremendous, and for good reason: their primary predator is the Martial Eagle, which makes upto 50% of its dietary intake Varanus albigularis, and lesser so V. niloticus. These animals need to be well camouflaged against such another enormous predator (Martial's may reach 11 foot wingspan!), not to mention hyena, jackals, lions, leopards, man, rock pythons, and goshawks.... variety of design helps them, or some of them to be better fitted for their local environments than others, hence the populations survive. As Man has over 400 local names for all African Varanus across Africa, they have shared the Continent for a long time....and reports of 8-9 foot V. albigularis are reported, and I believe them to be true if it were not for poaching and bushmeat practices - we would see such animals; I have seen 6'11 V.a. iondesi and it is impressive.

Pet shops see phenotypes and call them different; Scientists can them a few other things: both see the same animals if they look hard enough, but one can deeper than the dirty dusty skin and jaws of these animals, and that is where the difference lies.... If V. albigularis were all different across Africa, then their skull morphologies would also be differentm just as their exterior morphologies are, right? - The skull structures are the same, hence the animals are really the same animal, just wearing different coats depending on where they live across Africa, and that can be answered by looking at my articles/papers (Bayless, 1997. J. African Ecology, 35:354-357; Bayless, 2000a-b; 2002). "

[mbayless]

Hi all,
I did not realize I was missing all the fun here! That is Kevin Baker holding Titan at the San Diego Zoo in June 1996 - I have a pic of me holding him too somewhere...as did several people. Jeff Lemm was a very nice host that day to us all....Thanks Jeff!

Now to the issue at hand: albigularis':

As shvar and Gregg said in their postings, some V. albigularis do not reach great lengths:

V.a. albigularis: in South Africa - the annual temps, both high and low cause them to hibernate some seasons, and they do - and with it, less food intake. These animals range from Malawi, Botswana, Namibia south tpo the Cape of South Africa. V.a.albigularis reach lengths approaching five feet, but there is always the exception - I have seen 1 5.5 foot specimen at AMNH I believe it was, in a wet collection trunk.

There are 'integrade' corridors for V.a. albigularis and V.a. ionidesi in Shire Valley, Malawi/S.W. Tanzania, and along the Okavango River on the Caprivi strip of Namibia (maybe?).

V.a. ionidesi forms, which range from Angola east to Tanzania do attain great size, as food is readily available and temperatures are constant. This is where the largest animals are known, usually seen inland Tanzania and southern Republic of Congo (= formerly Ziare). The largest specimen of 'albigularis' is known from Tanzania, collected there by Dr. Arthur Loveridge in 1933 or 1934? It is in the BMNH now; This specimen was a head and partial body when initially collected by Loveridge - but he took only the head back to Chicago with him - it was later traded to BMNH, which is a common enough thing, but sometimes hellish when you are tracking down said specimen as I did - I have all the published and alot of unpublished material on this particular specimen. In 1960-61, this specimen was again discussed by Dr. A. Villiers as it had no teeth, and a artifact of age in Varanidae = they lose their teeth, which they do. I believe this particular specimen has been written 1 time since 1961 if memory serves me right, sometimes it does?

V.a. microstictus: This is my favorite of the bunch = they do get large. I had a 6'2" total length female for many years live with me, and she was delightful - except she 'shat' upon me at every opporutnity offered! She could be hand fed - a dangerous thing to do -
when they're hungry! V.a. microsticus was first listed in 1845 by Ruppell, first Curator of Herpetology at the Senckenberg Museum in Franfurt Germany, but alas no description of it was presented then. It was not until 1893 when Dr. Oskar Boettger, then Curator of same listed V.a. microstictus from Kordofan (Sudan) that it was recognized officially by herpetologists - the name had been known all the time since its initial collection in 1827 by Heyden. In 1827 V. ocellatus was described - a 'savanna-like' Varanus whose position in African Varanus taxonomy is still unknown really - it goes from V. exanthematicus back to albigularis and back again every 50 years or so...I have information on it that 'might help clarify it' but we will see? Or maybe not? This species ranges from coastal Mozambique to interior Sudan and Ethiopia and even coastal Djibouti and Eritrea along the Red Sea, and the farthest known local is Mersa Matruh in coast Egypt to the Mediterranean Sea!

V. yemenensis: This species is most alligned with V.a. microstictus in morphology, size, and disposition. It is in Djibouti specimen of this animal was photographed a few years ago: this specimen can be seen in Roder, 1994, fig. 4(?) I believe in Salamandra journal. Some call it a V. yemenensis, others V.a. microstictus? Nobody knows for sure - but it does show sympatric relationship with each other.

V. ocellatus: Your guess is as good as mine! A confusing topic. It is known to Sudan, Ethiopia, Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania and extreme Rep. of Congo (= Zaire) localities.

In 2000, I authored a article with Robert Sprackland on these species' above - I had discovered the skulls of all of the afore-mentioned, except V. yemenensis and V. ocellatus are identical in morphology = same skulls as adults = same animals taxonomically speaking. Hence we wrote the article up stating that through elevation (altitude, NOT Longitude or Lattitude), and proximity to the Equator (via food supply and solar radiation), scale counts change, as seen with Mexican Herpetofauna, according to solar radiation, and hence through from 1802 to 2000, the confusion of the albigularis problem.... they look so different, but really are not! They are 1 monotypic species with variances in morphology, hence no 'real' subspecies status is warranted, and is related to where on Africa they live...simple as that folks!

Thanks for letting me 'play' too - good to see you keeping your Vara-paws in the game Gregg - been awhile since we emailed and even longer since I seen your ugly mug or yours mine! Next time we play the 'Peteroy' trick on John~ hahahaha how funny was that!
markb

[Gregg M]

Hey Mark,
Thanks for clearing some of this up..... I was not totally unaware that microstictus occured on the coastal parts of Tanz..... You must have told me at one point that they did because I thought about it when SHvar brought it up, but I cant keep track of everything you say....LOL..... I did however remember the skull situation and that my thoughts based on overlapping ranges made me think the skull was that of ionidesi, not microstictus..... One can only guess being that the carcus was badly decomposed and could not be identified by its coloration or pattern

I also knew that the current size record is held by a living V. a. ionidesi and it is actually 7 foot 2 inches......

Now on to Titan..... I guess judging by the locality where he was collected he should be V.a a. but I think overlapping ranges of V. albigularis subspecies and intergrading may be playing a roll in the size...... That plus the proper diet of poultry, eggs and molusks fed to the albigs in the San Diego zoo..... As you know Mark, I have had some neonate albigs grow over 3 inches a month on that diet......

Besides adult skull structure, not all albigularis are created equal and the subspecies on the top size wise, is Varanus albigularis ionidesi, which was my argument from the start.....

Anyway, it was great to see you pop your head into the thread Mark..... As far as keeping my vara-paws in the game, how can one truely ever loose interest in some of the most amazing reptiles to walk or crawl the earth..... I hope you make it out to the east coast this year.....
That Peteroy trick that we played was so good, I have been telling the same story for close to 10 years now....LOL..... Not only do you know your African varanids like the back of your hand, you are a crazy dude that is a blast to hang out with...... What do you think was better, the trick we played on Peteroy, or what I said to Bill at the Bronx zoo???? LOL..... Anyway, later on man.....

[SHvar]

Misidentified way too many times, Ive seen several Albigularis that were called Micros that look like a this WT pictured. Ive seen WTs that look like a banded WT but with white spots inside of the bands that are identified as Microstictus.
This is why I asked Mark to clear it up a few times, the animals Ive seen called Micros range from a dark BT to something resembling a banded WT. This is why I bring this up, theres a pic posted many times of a big BT from Prehistoric pets that is identified as a Micro, Pete Zulpichs site has pics of what is called a micro by some people.
I have a pic from Harold DeIsle of a dark dull BT thats identified as a Micro, the description from him I read sounds like the picture from his book and from Prehistoric pets.
All of San Diego zoos WTs are the same local version, the same color and pattern, which to me looks like a Namibian WT. For a period of years Ionidesi was removed as a subspecies if I remember right, then brought back, they were absorbed by V.a.albigularis, of course this kind of thihg changes so much.
I saw some pics just sent to me of 2 albigs that look like a Tanzanian WT, but were called a Micro, who knows.http://shenderson1.photosite.com/~photos/tn/2162_1024.ts1098779112182.jpg

[mbayless]

I think the 'peteroy' maneuver was the best trick/joke I have ever seen and participated in too! Hilarious! Your comments at NYZS was a pisser - if you could have seen Bill's expression after you said that, you would have died laughing, as I did when I turned toward the wall and almost pissed myself with laughter.

Shvar: when was V.a. iondidesi removed, and then returned to taxon favor? I don't recall that? Technically, officially, the albigularis complex is still a complex with the subspecies names still in place - my article in Reptiles was interesting to many herpetologists, and I sent out quite a few copies of that - but the subspecies' names still remain...nobody has changed anything that I am aware of.

As for V.a. microstictus: In 1933, V.a. microstictus was thought to range from Mozambique to Sudan, with a certain scale count determining this subspecies in the field - all of the scale counts of the subspecies overlap - but Loveridge found a head, part of a vertebrae, and a leg, in high decomposition - so how was he able to count scales? He was not - he determined its status by where it was found, in central Tanzania, halfway from Dodomo and coast Tanzania. So its taxon name could really only as far as 'Varanus albigularis', no farther....a small error.

Shvar, his name is "Pete Zupich". Kevin BAker got married some years ago, has a kid, and got rid of his varanids. He gave me his entire photo collection ~1000 photos of albigularis animals - some very strange looking.

The albigularis' found in Etosha Namibia, where the San Diego Zoo animals come from would by 'range' be called V.a. albigularis. These animals derive from Etosha Salt Pan, northern Namibia = and a place not too far from Angola, where V.a. ionidesi range - albigularis is known to be found 'far' from water, so perhaps this is another place where the groups 'corridor' of the subspecies?

mbayless

[SHvar]

The comment "ionidesi is no longer valid, it is V.a.Albigularis" yet at some point the Ionidesi subspecies was recognized again as its own subspecies. Also comments such as "the formerly valid ionidesi is now considered V.a.albigularis".
I have your article from Reptiles mag here somewhere Ill read it again when I have a chance.

[mbayless]

Hi Shvar,
Yes, I do not consider V.a. ionidesi or any of the other subspecies, leaving only V. albigularis alone as valid, but it has not been formally published as such, so subspecies remain as is - V.a.albigularis, V.a.angolensis, V.a.microstictus, V.a.ionidesi.
markb

[boywithscales]

so..................ya...........go monitors.

so it doesnt matter what local my monitor is, its temperment depends on the individual animal? interesting.
so theres no big difference between blackthroats and whitethroats?
im confused..........

[mbayless]

Hi,
Yes individuality is the key - and "its' comfort with you, not the other way around!

There are differences in size, scale counts, and these are associated with ecological factors, not physiological/skeletal features which are basically the same throughout this species from Egypt to South Africa! They all hibernate somewhat, they all eat ALOT, they all ****, and they all tail lash - but some are docile, some are very beautiful, some are ugly, and they all smell like roasted almonds when 'horny'.....WONDERFUL animals....a guy named Alfred 'Gogga' Brown lived 44 years with them in South Africa - and there is a wonderful little book about him from 1939 I...
Good Luck!
mbayless

[kap10cavy]

Is it ok if I just call Fluffy a blackthroat?
These big words ya'll use make my head hurt.

Scott

[img]http://www.repticzone.net/images/3253/Fluffy_0038.jpg[img]

[boywithscales]

do they really smell like roasted almonds when ther horny?
that would be different.....sorta gross, ide never see almonds the same way again,

one more question, If I take out my monitor every day for atleast 20 minuets, will it probably learn to tolerate me?(notice how i didnt say tame it?)oh yeah, my cage is almost done for my future varanid, i just have to work on the inside of it this week.ill post pics later.

[kap10cavy]

Mine had a heavy smell when I first got him, more like maple syrup. He was small and in bad shape, his tail still looks like an accordian, just with meat now.
It all depends on the animal.
I hear all the time, "Albigs calm down so easily".
They obviuosly forgot to tell mine this bit of info.
I have had and been around monitors that will climb on you.
I have also seen some that just don't like people.
Mine will go to the farthest corner and his when ever I open the door and hiss like mad. It's not fun moving him to a new cage or taking him for a vet visit.

Scott

[boywithscales]

well, im going to try my luck with them this april, ill be getting an albig, then with all this talk, ill post pics,and let shvar and mbayless tell me what i have, lol

[SHvar]

And a few local versions, but most of them I couldnt begin to tell you where they came from. I love Albigs, been addicted to them for many years, I try to find out as much as I can where I can about them and also I try many things with their care. I eliminate the useless aspects of the husbandry and stick with something that works.
Read this, what do ya think?
VARANUS ALBIGULARIS, by Shawn Henderson (avid varanifile and monitor hobbyist)

Varanus (latin-monitor lizard), Albi=white, gularis=throat. The whitethroated monitor is a complex of subspecies, V.a.Albigularis, V.a.Microstictus (true blackthroat), v.a.Angolensis (Angolan whitethroat), V.a.Ionidesi (blackthroat found in the pet industry commonly, named for the famous snakeman ionides). They range as a species from one local area to the next by a few miles in color, pattern, and size as an adult. They are a large species of monitor that at any size is one of the most powerful species, and very imposing captives, they have the best or worst tail whip of any monitor (depends if you are on the recieving end), very very powerful jaws especially adapted to crush giant land snails, turtles, and tortoise. They are semi arboreal yet spend half of their time underground in burrows, or searching the ground for prey. They are well known by African bird watchers as the most prevalent predator on nesting birds, and song birds, they will in fact set an ambush next to a nest of eggs or chicks to await the return of the parents, eat both parents then the eggs or chicks. They are also known for living in large rock piles hence the name "rock or tree leguaan. They are greatly adapted diggers and can burrow like a highly skilled team of miners in hard packed dirt. They are found as far north as southern Egypt and south to the tip of the cape, they range from white to yellowish, to reddish, brown, black, with banded, spotted, or almost solid patterns. They vary from 4ft to over 7ft depending of location in relation to the equator and availability of food, lack of predators. They range from 7lbs to over 35lbs in weight, and can very destuctive, as well tear poorly designed cages apart and furniture. They posess a set of sharp teeth in the front as well the majority of their middle and back teeth like other African monitors molarize with age or wear rounded. They have a horribly powerful bite with the ability to crack or crush bone, they have a habit of hanging on without releasing, regardless of attempts to remove them. They are a common predator of snakes, especially venomous cobras and vipers (which they act a bit less confident in approach). They are also known to eat other species of monitor from young niles to the bosc or savannah monitors which is Africas smallest species (when they are found in the same areas). They are known to live in a semi-arid to arid grassland, woodland environments (hence the term savannah monitor, not to be confused with the American pet trade savannah monitor, V exanthematicus).
They are rewarding captives if given alot of room, deep digable dirt substate in which to tunnel and burrow under, their natural habitat has a high iron content soil with little to no organic material (leaves, tree bark, vegetation, these type subtrates hold too much water and spoil or get moldy). They do best on a rodent based diet from birth through adulthood with additions of crickets, roaches, superworms, chicken peeps, quail, and occaisional amounts of meat (ground turkey is common as the San Diego Zoo turkey diet, a mixture of steamed bonemeal, turkey and a crushed Centrum one a day vitamin), and some other foods, all insects should be supplemented with a good quality calcium supplement such as Miner-all or herpti-cal with Vit D3 (actually a sterol not a vitamin).
They enjoy a very high basking temperature (surface temp) of 130-170f plus degrees. The basking spot should be made from plywood as it holds a consistant temp, is inexpensive, not too heavy to hurt your animal if it falls on it, and is very sturdy (untreated wood, thats without arsenic which leaches into the soil etc). These animals should be kept in multiple cages from 4x2x2ft to 10x4x5ft or much larger as they grow (which if cared for properly happens very very fast, anywhere from 4-5 ft in their first year is possible), cages should be waterproof inside to resist moisture from damp substrate, and tough surfaces to resist powerful monitors claws.
They require a fresh source of water to drink as they need it (if kept properly they rarely ever drink, and rarely ever soak), and if they want to,adding a soaking water source at their disposal. Usually screen top cages cause a big problem with dehydration which shows as the want to soak alot, it also manifests itself by showing up down the road in the form of lack of appetite, frequent drinking, crystalization of uric acid in the kidneys almost no matter how much soaking occurs and eventually death by kidney failure, usually explained by vets to greiving owners as mysterious kidney failure (occurs in so many captive monitors kept in open top cages and no proper substrate). Also among health problems there are 2 other common occurances in captivity, one is liver failure which is caused by long term low basking temps, the lack of ability to properly digest food/use available energy from food by storing massive amounts of fat then mobilizing it suddenly during a fast causing the liver to be soaked and overcome by "fatty liver disorder" or hepatic lipidosis. This was formerly blamed on feeding a rodent diet high in protien, but found to be a serious husbandry problem in all reptiles not diet. The other problem is impacted digestive systems, the happens when again too low of temps and dehydration are mixed with a seriously obese animal in many cases that cannot properly digest or pass food or objects such as rocks, wood, substrate etc through their digestive system, it is a serious husbandry issue and a sign that changes were needed a long time ago. You should find a good experienced herp vet through Herpvets.com or ARAV websites as well ask around the reptile community and ask each vet many detailed informed questions before choosing one. Basking spots can be made into "Retes Stacks", or pyramid shaped unattached stacks with a tight space for your monitor to squeeze into allowing it to thermoregulate in multiple temperature zones while feeling secure.
These animals can cause severe damage when biting or scratching and bites should not be bragged about and if possible avoid reporting them to even medical authorities as animal bite info is collected every year and used by politcal groups against our hobby in local and state laws. Not to say you shouldnt seek medical help but to not bring bad legislation to our wonderful hobby, bites happen so its best to report it to be safe as all pet hobbyists know if it has teeth it can bite.
Note: although if kept properly they can be rewarding captives 99% are wild caught and can carry high loads of internal parasites as well ticks and mites from being kept in improper conditions, true captive bred and born specimens are very rare and expensive but are the best choice for captives as they have never experienced freedom in the wild therefore dont miss it as well imports are many times very badly abused. They can take time to learn to trust their caretakers in captivity as all animals have individual personalities. These lizards can be bred in captivity sucessfully if offered the right resources, they are also very territorial and are known to be cannibalistic if not offered choices and resources. They are also born with the knowledge and weapons to kill one another very very quickly as adults, therefore pairs should be identified by sex at small sizes such as above hatchlings and raised together to teach them to communicate and speak the same language, pairs should also be offered very very large enclosures to facilitate their need to escape one another at times. These lizards are also known to be avid lizard specialists as all monitors are at eating hatchlings, and smaller neighbors, as well eggs of any species available.
Eggs should be incubated artificially at temperatures around 83-86f in perlite as it is a more consistent and an easy medium to use. It takes about 6 months to incubate anywhere from 20-52 eggs from V. albigularis in a clutch, the eggs are around 2.25 inches in length, and they hatch at about 9 inches long. As hatchlings they should be fed daily the diet mentioned earlier in this species plate/caresheet, they are known to be bottomless pits when it comes to feeding and can put away huge amounts that seem to disappear with ease. These animals can sucessfully reproduce at the age of 6 months old if kept somewhat close to correctly as demonstrated by many hobbyists in the past.
Basking lights can be made sucessfully from standard outdoor halogen flood lightbulbs bought from any local hardware store as they have no need for overpriced UV bulbs sold by reptile suppliers as they get all required nutrients from a proper diet, the wattage of those floodlight bulbs varies with needs and cages ( the author uses all 45 watt halogen outdoor flood bulbs arranged in multilight assemblies to properly heat the entire snout to vent size of the animal). There is no danger from monitors climbing on hot light bulbs if offered the correct temperature gradient and the ability to properly heat up without lying on the bulbs, as well thermal burns happen when a basking "hot-spot" is too small and the animal spends too much time basking under it in cool conditions.

[boywithscales]

do you have proper temps listed? I saw basking spot, but no average high or lows, your opinions on live versus dead, good ways to help tame, you have to remember that some people (kids) who arent as mature as you and others on this forum will be reading your caresheet. newbies need as much info as possible, other then that its one of the best ive read so far, this one and the one from pro exotics.

[mbayless]

Hi,
Low temps should go no further than 70 - but they can take lower temps a night or two if need be. As for diet, keep it varied, try to keep adult rodents to a minimum, or defrock/dehair the rodents as hair impaction can occur - especially when temps are low, and/or animnals not in optimal health. They should have digging apparel, climbing apparel, hide spots, basking spots, middle ground spots not too hot/cold too = space!

Good Luck!
markb

[SHvar]

Usually I shoot for 86f as a warm area right around the basking spot. The cool end I offer them anywhere from 68f to 73f. With a gradient from 90-68 they use it all at different times.
Now with hatchlings use 73f-75f as a low end air temp, and 86-90f for a high end air temp. As a hathling I offered them 135-150f basking temps, then as they get older and bigger I increase the basking temps and icrease it until they wont use it them cool it down a bit (mine use 150-174f basking surfaces as adults).
I base the diet on all monitors from mice or rats, depends on their physical size. I add chicken peeps, quail, roaches, crickets.
My ackies on the other hand have a cricket/roach based diet.
I use Miner-all indoor on insects only, I dont offer fish, meat, etc.
Hair impactions are a result of too low temps, and dehydration. they love to dig and burrow under rground, but also like Retes stacks.

[mbayless]

Shvar,
where is Africa does it approach temperatures from 150-174 F???????? And do not say 'Sahara Desert', as V. albigularis does not live there, only V. greiseus and a few scattered V. niloticus trapped in the gueltas there. The Karoo Desert or Namib deserts do not reach 150 F, so it cannot be those places either.....where?

Do you mean ambient air temperature or temperature of the basking spot substrate?? That is two entirely different things.... this kind of information can lead newbies to literally cook their varanids. It has been my (humble) opinion that V. albigularis 'seem' to prefer cooler temps than 100F! If they spend most of their time away from the basking spot = too hot! Spend too much time under the basking spot, too cold! Spend 50:50 in both = just right! The animals 'can' tell you alot, but you have to give them the choices!
markb

[Gregg M]

Shvar, not all hair impactions are due only to the reasons you listed...... Some monitors digestive tracts are not "made" to digest mamalian prey or the hair that comes with them.... A rodent based staple diet is probably the worst diet you can give your albigularis...... Just take a look at what they eat in the wild..... In the wild, a rodent is a rare find...... They do not actively hunt rodents but they will eat one if it were to stumble upon one..... But that is far and few inbetween...... Molusks, insects, eggs, and other reptiles make up the huge majority of their diet and this should not change when they are brought into captivity..... It is just very conveniant and cheap to buy mice and rats....... That is why they become the staple diet for monitors in captivity..... It is a shame realy.....

[mbayless]

But of course what Gregg M. is suggesting goes against those personages who say heat'em, feed'em and breed'em, without condiseration that of the 3-4 lineages of Varanus, the African forms are the most primitive of the bunch....and their polymorphic teeth change from insectivirous to piscivorous teeth modofications = no other group of Varanus do this....so why treat them as the others with rodents, rodents, rodents, 175 F temps??? If one says, "mine do fine on it - how fine is fine?" Something to consider....
markb

[SHvar]

Proven to myself and many many others to be true, rodents are the best diet basis for them, but they have to have the ability to utilize them properly. If given the ability and options to properly digest and use them rodents works great as a basis. The results do speak for themselves. I use basking temps that they choose to use, adult WTs seem to love 145f to 174f surface temps to bask on. My ackies love even higher temps, 195f. I offered them their choice of a few basking temps and surfaces, they choose the high temps and plywood surfaces. Keep in mind Ive tried from 120f-200f surface temps, Ive tried corkbark, branches, rock, brick, blocks, and plywood, I use whichever they choose. i also feed them what they do the best with.
Keep in mind that with any of my monitors Ive raised I used small rodents such as adult mice, jumbos and chicken peeps until they get huge, consider Sobek never ate rats of any size until she was 6ft long. Of course I also rarely give them a few hissers, with their diet but most of their food is rodents, and chicken peeps. These are WTs that when their blood was tested for calcium levels, D3 levels, organ conditions the results were compared to be what was considered perfect or optimal for a monitor. One of my other albigs eat large rats, Shadow, my male cross, he has always been fed from the beginning the same way, feast then fast for a few weeks, so I keep him that way still. I decided to use Faust advice on Shadow as far as feeding goes. Until someone proves otherwise with real monitors that rodent are not good for them as a basis Ill continue to do so.
I dont believe that the San Diego zoo diet is very good no matter what the "experts" say about it because Ive tried it, I believe it can be used to supplement, but no basis by any means. Whats Ive seen it do tells me no.

[SHvar]

If you look at any post here Ive mentioned basking and ambient temps, it is specified as a surface temp, ambients are specified as air temps also. I specify how to come about those temps as using a probe thermometer to measure air temps (warm end 86-90f), (cool end 68-75f), I also specify that to get an accurate basking or surface temp you must use an infared temp gun or infared thermometer. As a matter of fact read back at my posts you will see that on each. I know how newbies, and even people that are not nebies like to skim over and not read closely or understand whats being typed therefore they seem to miss those differences and make assumptions. Even you did not notice where I specified those temps and differences..

"They enjoy a very high basking temperature (surface temp) of 130-170f plus degrees"

"Usually I shoot for 86f as a warm area right around the basking spot. The cool end I offer them anywhere from 68f to 73f. With a gradient from 90-68 they use it all at different times.
Now with hatchlings use 73f-75f as a low end air temp, and 86-90f for a high end air temp. As a hathling I offered them 135-150f basking temps, then as they get older and bigger I increase the basking temps and icrease it until they wont use it them cool it down a bit (mine use 150-174f basking surfaces as adults)."

"I use basking temps that they choose to use, adult WTs seem to love 145f to 174f surface temps to bask on. My ackies love even higher temps, 195f. I offered them their choice of a few basking temps and surfaces, they choose the high temps and plywood surfaces. Keep in mind Ive tried from 120f-200f surface temps".

Note its specified thoughout these quotes from my posts.

[Gregg M]

All I have to say is that I think you have not been in the varanid game long enough to come to any conclusions really....... I have had albigs grow faster and bigger on a rodent free diet than anyone I know feeding rodents...... Mark Bayless can be a witness to that..... He has seen my growth charts and my animals..... I actually sent Mark a 4 foot 9 inch savannah that never ate a rodent in its life..... It was only 4 years old...... Rodents are not a good staple diet for albigs.....

Its funny how you quoted Mark through out this entire thread but when he came out here and pretty much told you, you were wrong, you disagree all of a sudden..... LOL.....

SHvar, you are trying to argue a point with people that have seen the damage rodent feeding can do to albigs...... How long have you actually been keeping albigs for????

As Mark pointed out, African varanids in general, are in a class all by themselves.....

Maybe its me but the majority of people I see that use the method----- Heat them, feed them, and breed them, usually winds up with a dead varanid within 7 years.....

A natural, varied diet is best......
Keeping them on a staple diet of cancer ridden lab rats is the worst thing you can do for you African varanid.....

End of story...
Case closed...

[mbayless]

(shvar): WTs seem to love 145f to 174f surface temps to bask on.

markb: ok - surface temps - I might have overlooked 'surface temps' - and I am not a newbie, but a newbie who overlooks it as you also say they do, would cook his albigularis with ambient temps that high - at 127F ambient proteins break down = tissues break down = cell death occurs = all cells die, and it dies. My over-sight on this, but like I said, I prefer keeping animals according to where they prefer to be, and not to what I choose them to be at...they know more about themselves, varanids, than I ever will, no matter how many decades I live with, watch, read about, write about them....

(Shvar): These are WTs that when their blood was tested for calcium levels, D3 levels, organ conditions the results were compared to be what was considered perfect or optimal for a monitor.

markb: What levels are considered 'perfect'? I did not know there was a 'perfect'/optimal level for these minerals. If there is a perfect optimal level, what is it? Can you share your numbers with me, and where you got them, and if possible, where your vet got his data from? Thanks.

If there is no 'perfect' level for comparison, how do you know where your animal is on this non-comparative scale? Is this chart or scale for reptiles? for snakes? for lizards? for mammals? thanks for the clarity.

(Shvar): I dont believe that the San Diego zoo diet is very good no matter what the "experts" say about it because Ive tried it, I believe it can be used to supplement, but no basis by any means. Whats Ive seen it do tells me no.

markb: I don't know which 'experts' you're referring too - Jeff Lemm who works at SDZS/CRES Centre? You must also take into consideration those V. albigularis which came from Etosha Namibia many years ago, are based outdoors, in the southern California climate = its sunny and hot most of the year! They get a tremendous amount of D3/calcium levels from the solar radiation alone, and do not require supplements of that nature - they get this turkey diet which is nutritionally adequate, and attained good size. Those animals are outdoors - your animnals are indoors = big difference in temperament, nutritional requriements, exercise etc.... so of course what your animals need will be different from what SDZS animals will need to some degree.

As Gregg M. and I say, a balanced 'varied' diet is best for African varanids. They are not Australian Odatria or S.E. Asia Varanus/Euprepiosaurus subgenera, the African forms are polydaedalus and they are a group that hibernates/brumates, polymorphic dentition (different teeth at different stages of life), and seem to prefer cooler temps than either Australian or Pacific types .... although they can withstand periods of drought and lack of water longer than many species, they are of a different lineage/complex and requirements....subtle or not, these are facts. I do not believe all varanid species should be treated exclusively the same, or kept the same and especially fed the same....they are not the same, do not look the same, do not live in the same niche' the same, so why treat them the same?

Try this: Put a few varieties of different foods in front of your albigularis in glass bowls: see which he takes first for say 50 trials, and see what happens? Try cockroaches, mice, shellfish, boiled eggs, fish, and keep doing this weekly, and you will see which food item they take first = preference = the mice/rodents will not make up the majority of the overall choices offered vrs taken. A simple test.
cheers,
markb

[kap10cavy]

Well, Geeze, thanks alot Mark. Now my heads going to hurt thinking about everything you just mentioned. I am going to try that experiement. I have noticed when I put rodents and quail in the cage, my blackthroat eats the quail first.
What fish would you reccommend. I can get farm raised brim and bluegill. Crawfish are easy to come by also. I can also get a small variety of fertile bird eggs.
As far as temps go my cage temps are 134 on the basking spot, 88.3 to 73.6. At the bottom of his favorite burrow, it is only 62.4.

Scott

[SHvar]

The banded WT which was raised practically his entire life from 18 months on until recently on chicken peeps (he was obtained at 18 months and 18 inches long), given a choice 5/6 times prefers small adult mice and 1/6 times hissers when I have them, doesnt like chicken peeps much now.
My male cross was fed exclusively for his first 2 years by Faust only mice. He is a different story with his "birth defects" from incubation problems. He prefers to eat large rats only now, at one time he ate a few peeps, and hissers, he just rips them up now and doesnt eat them.
Sobek will eat almost anything that goes in front or near her thats edible. Her strongest feeding responce since she has been over 6ft long is with large rats, she will eat mice, she prefers peeps a bit more than mice now, at one time quail were one of her preferences, she will eat hissers but the rats are her preference, she has eaten snails but again doesnt prefer them to rodents. Sobek has switched at different stages of her just over 3 years of life from a hatchling and prefering adult mice and roaches, and crickets, and quail, to adult mice and quail. At some point around 3ft she preferred chicken peeps over anything with occaisional roaches. At just over 1 year old and just over 5ft she ate large chicken peeps and hissers. At 2 years old and 6ft long she preffered large rats over anything, since then large rats and a few peeps with occaisional hissers has been her main diet. On rare occaision (dont even have a idea of how often this is, less than once a month) she will eat pieces of horse meat (Nebraska brand feline diet, whole horse minus the stomach intestines and hair ground up and mixed witha few vegetables a mix of calcium and vitamins (part of our cats diet). She will on rare occaision also eat ground whole rabbit, and mutton (everything minus the hair, stomach and intestines). These last 3 foods are part of my cats diet, Sobek was offered a small amount of this food when I sawed off too much right away, but she hasnt eaten any since (2 months ago maybe), I stick to what gives me results and what they prefer.
Ive tried that test with multiple foods with Sobek, she definitely prefers rodents but will eat everything else one right after the other. The vet didnt give me the numbers when they were checked, but he told me they were compared to numbers given to him by the San Diego zoo, Washington zoo, etc what is meant by "picture perfect" was in reference to the blood levels, he stated they were between numbers given by several zoo sources from their research into varanids or closest to San Diegos numbers with their WTs which as you stated were kept outdoors and fed turkey diet as well some were fed rodents as they needed reference numbers to be able to state that the numbers were the same with rodents. I dont worry about going to a vet unless its needed now, thats been a while (almost 2 years with my reptiles??).

[mbayless]

Hi Scott,
Any fish will do, and they do like crawfish - watch them remove the pinchers first before they eat the thing, then eat the pinchers too! Its fun to watch...any fish will do, they fresh to process freshwater fishes more, but all fish stinks real bad when it comes out!

Hi Shvar,
Ok, that answers my question about the calcium levels - thanks; and your animals have made their choices - have you tried shellfish, like crawfish and shrimp? They really seem to like those, and snakes of course!

cheers,
markb

[V.hb]

Mark, are you suggesting a full fish diet would be optimum for albigs? things like smelts, shrimps, crawfish etc? I thought something in fish in large doses can be quite dangerous?

[boywithscales]

wow, I am learning alot from this argueing, and funny thing is, there seems to be alot of differnt opinions on each others monitor diets, everyone claiming ther diet is the best, however you all have healthy large monitors....i am really confused now.
Could you all just post pics of your albigs?

[V.hb]

boywithscales:
It's funny because dog food would get a monitor big, but doesnt mean it's good for them in the long run. you learn alot as you go when dealing with all monitors, thats what makes them so much fun.

I have 4 all very big, but i 'am still trying to perfect their diet :) lotsa people say rodents rodents rodents, and as you see some don't. Iam stuck in the middle offering a variety :)

[coldblooded]

I don't think he meant strictly fish, just using fish to vary the diet.

You may be thinking of Mercury, maybe?

I've not got an albig, but I know that my little savvy does enjoy shrimp (shelled or not), scorpions, rodents (sometime won't eat 'em), crickets by the 100's, the occasional octopus (which will actually cook near a heat lamp) and sometimes feeder goldfish.

I do believe that in the wild they barely eat anything but inverts, though.

You guys must be very passionate about your varanids, I feel like I'm reading a book here...not that I don't enjoy it.


Mike

[Gregg M]

V.hb,
That is the best thing you can do.... Offer numerous types of prey items, not just rodents..... It is ok to leave rodents in as a part of the diet but it should not make up the large % of its diet...... That is when you will run into problems down the road....

Coldblooded, I would stay away from the feeder goldfish..... They tend to carry numerous types of parasites, bacterias, and fungus that can harm or even kill your reptile......

[mbayless]

"Variety" is the key - yes, a rodent is a neat package with all th fortified vitamins and so on within it = but African forms are desgined to eat 'hard=crushing' invertebrates, vertebrates and those teeth help them do that. Have you considered that many inverts. have more of some minerals/vitamins than say a rodent, and that they process these minerals differently, than say a goulds goanna? ALL monitors are adaptive, intelligent, 'think', but evolution has placed some of these animals in niches that you do not see in other parts of the World = in New Guinea, the croc monitor is an apex predator, and sometimes hunts man too (Davis, 1969:157-58), whereas in Africa, they do not, and are most often hunted by mammals (jackals, lions, leopards, snakes and most of all, Martial Eagle). So one must take each species as a species, and not collectively: yes, both an African and an Asian lion eat meat, but the subtles of their killing methods and what they prefer to eat tells you how different they are: African lions eat the entire body except the skull - Asia lion eats everything except the intestines themselves (but eats the contents).
Subtle but different; both eat people when they become man-killers.

As for fish, any 'fresh fish' is good, and give it a good rinse before offering to them....I gave mine whole rainbow trout, gills and all - head first of course!
markb

[SHvar]

Ive kept monitors for over 14 years, mostly African species, exanthematicus, niloticus, ornatus, and my favorite by far and the one with the most time spent with is albigularis. I dont believe any case is closed on a rodent based diet at all, simply put what have the top breeders of African varanids fed their animals, mostly mice, am I correct? I ask this because some of the oldest albigs are fed mice or mostly mice.
Ive had many problems in the past with my husbandry, and fixed those problems, but Ive never in over 20 years had a hair or substrate impaction with any reptile, that tells me somethings seriously wrong with anyones husbandry who has this happen.
My banded WT currently eats 12-17 small adult mice every 3-5 days, he burns them off quickly, yet hes over 3 years old. qan

[mbayless]

Hair impaction is often associated with ambient lower temps than is necessary for the animals' physiology: a hair impaction from a water monitor is going to occur at different temps than for a albigularis, via their 'optimal' matabolic temperatures. As reported by Gleason (1981), V. albigularis optimal metabolic temp is 95F; As per Pandav's field studies, V. salvator's optimal metabolic temp is 85F (a salvator can of course tolerate higher ambient temps becase it is "always" associated with water nearby, and can cool off, as is generally in the water much of its daily regimen.

Does success always imply 'breeding'? How about longevity? I think longevity is more important to a captive animal. 'Breeding' is an innate instinctual behavior that all animals follow, except michael jackson, and usually ensues higher incidents when the animals are under duress/stress conditions. Animals first 'primary mission' is to reproduce, and getting them to reporduce in captivity is not that difficult really - if you have boy/girl, they will when temps are good, food is good and varied, and both are willing, especially the female....

yes, many of the breedings seen have included rodent-based diet, but that does not necessarily mean they are healthy animals does it? Breeding is a separate feature from healthy sometimes! Even the jews in the W.W.II death camps bred, and their conditions were neither healthy or helpful, with good temps or food....
markb

[SHvar]

Bad cat!!
I didnt get a chance to finish the post.
I have fed crayfish to them before but its very very hard to get them around here anymore, sometimes I can buy them. I used to feed them to 2 big lungfish I had until a water line problem killed both.
I just gave them the crayfish live or dead and never removed claws, one bite and the crayfish cant use its claws anyways. Ive had monitors rip the claws off and eat them in pieces, or one crunch and done.
I used to use chicken peeps as the majority of their diets but the results on the cape banded I got my a friend (thats what he feeds almost exclusively) showed it doesnt work as good.
Ive had an exanthematicus that grew from 6 inches to 4ft 6inches in 2 years on mostly mice and rat fuzzies/pups that I bred back then. He also ate some insects but didnt prefer them to rodents. This monitor also was not overweight like most examples, at 4.5ft he was 11lbs at his highest, and fluctuated to 10lbs.
Ive fed alot of things to monitors, but dont consider any of them as good as rodents, birds, and roaches. I dont think for any reason I would ever subject them to dog or catfood as many people seem to want to.
During her first year Sobek ate like it was going out of style, no exageration what so ever. At 3 ft long she was eating 6-9 adult mice a day, or 6 day old chicken peeps a day, roaches I couldnt even begin to remember on the numbers for them. She ate large 3/4 lb chicken peeps after that until she was 6ft long along with rodents, and roaches.
I believe theres no problem in feeding a variety, but to stick with whole animals as those food sources, they are the best. I dont believe fish are anywhere near as good of a food source as rodents or birds, niether are insects alone. Of course they dont eat many rodents in the wild, but that is no indication of the best diet for them at all, common sense tells you that. After all in the wild, if given the opportunity to eat snake and birds, or eat insects only, which will they eat? Birds and snakes I guarrantee.

[boywithscales]

wow, ive learned more about temps and diet from this little post then any website ive been too to date. Just to throw another question in, do you guys think feeding dead prey helps calm down a monitor? or will it make no difference if you feed live or dead? and yes i do know that if you feed live your putting your monitor at risk of being injured, i just wanted to know what you guys think.

[boywithscales]

I also agree with mbayless, longevity is important, as is variety.

[mbayless]

Hi Shvar,

I don't mean to put you on the defensive - just having a discussion here on preferences, nothing more....

Have you considered what a 'rat' is? It is a mammal, warm blooded, and often with lab rats, fatty. Fat is a necessary component of metabloc physiology for all animals and plants too. When a albigularis or other Varanus eats a rat, what happens to it (besides being crushed, killed and destroyed - to quote a 1966 Lost in Space episode)?

It is broken down to its primary tissues, then proteins and fats. The albigularis body has a highly convoluted stomach of strong acid vat to break down the rat into goo. This goo passes to the intestines, which for an animal of this size, comparatively short, almost a straight path to the cloaca and 'out'. The bile breaks down the fat and it is absorped into the blood stream, where is it amassed and collected in the fat bodies organs - which should be about 1/5 in weight compared to the body weight of the animal = bodyweight/5. The rat is then processed more, with the larger intestine removing as much water from the digested food as it can, and the the toxins of the varand are expelled along with the waste biproducts of the food eaten, including hair.

The fat that is accumilated is stored in the fat body organs which lie along each side of the abdomen. When the females, who require greater calcium levels than males has cycled, and then fertilized, she takes from her fat body organs the necessary minerals, energy required to produce these eggs in her oviducts. These fat body organs also help them in times of starvation/hibernation. They do not eat much in hibernation, staying quite listless during these months, often staying in acacia trees, just 'hanging out' - but they do seek mates and reproduction during the summer months - and as they are as big as they are, breed once-twice annually, their clutches are big; Rob Faust has the record size clutch for albigularis at ~52 or is it 54?

whether it is double-clutch or not in wild is unknown, but in captivity they have - and on a rat diet - and as we have seen, they are fatty and promote a cycling regimen. Not to mention some people keep their lights on 24/7, which increases pheromone/serotonin levels, which also promotes breeding - so these along with good husbandry of clean terraria, clean water and rat food keeps them going as 'breeding machines' more-so than seen in more natural conditions. If this is success to you, fine; to me, I prefer to see the animals live a more natural life, with lights off/dark 8-12 hours of the day....people can also cycle the lights to the cycling periods of your albigularis too = light on longer in (African) summer than winter, and also see what they do....my albigularis and exanthematicus always hibernated naturally, and bred during the African summer months the many years I had them....and with a varied diet and sunlight, were very active throughout the year, more quiet in Nov-Feb, and then back to eating again...

Pacific varanids breed often with small clutches compared to the African forms, so cycling is more frequent - and that climate is overall more stable than seen in Africa.
markb

[V.hb]

Awesome thread guys!! I've learned alot, very interesting. Thanks

[SHvar]

In burrows, under stacks etc, its dark, damp, and noticeably cooler. Depending which albig I refer to they all eat differing amounts at their own choice I feed them when they are hungry or look like they need it (when digested, crapped out, and the monitor is looking for more usually). These times vary from one animal to the other dpends what they ate and how much. My biggest albig eats 1-2 times a week at most, that varies what she eats also, a large rat and sometimes a few chicken peeps and sometimes some mice. As I mentioned the cape banded is in a serious growth spurt at his age and eating alot often, my male Faust cross eats a large rat once every 2-3 weeks, he spends alot of time underground, but on occaision throughout the year he eats one a week (not too often). My ackie on the other hand eat constantly anything from roaches, crickets, and mice. All have some things in common, they live in cages with 24/7 basking spots available, all have `the ability to go underground an do so, all have temp gradients that vary from 68f to over 86f, all have basking spots that vary from 145f to 195f.
When I used less deep subsreate, was experimenting on what would work my big albig became bound up with eggs, this was her 3rd cycle, of course at the first 2 times I didnt recognize it, she absorbed, the 3rd time was during that time I moved her into a bigger cage, a new substrate (wrong dirt) she did not absorb nor could she lay them because she was dehydrated internally. When the eggs were removed there were 44 fully formed eggs over 5lbs of them (infertile of course), of course there were many follicles that were not formed also (seemed as if they were in stages of forming and stopped). Yes Robs female BT had 52 eggs or was it 53 or 54, I dont remember, that would be Shadows mother I believe. He gave the BT pair to a friend of his.
In your words size and growth are important, more important than breeding, as well longevity. Currently who has monitors that are 15 years old and older, you again disregard "mr heatem n feedum", he has 15 plus year old ackies, 15 plus year old albigs, 23-28 plus year old lacies. I dont know how that copares but the last time I checked the record for age in albigs in captivity was 17 years and still going.
Using alot of the same ideas, they grow very very fast, very big. I guess this covers growth and size. My own albigs are examples, from 9 inches to 5ft in one years time (faust cross so I know for sure how old she is). The male cross was 2 years old when I got him from Rob, he was 24 inches and 2 lbs 2 ounces, after 1 year here with me he was over 4ft and 10.5lbs. A good friend kept the cape banded WT I have now for about 1.5 years, he was already 1.5 years old at 18 inches total when he showed up, under my care in a matter of a month or so , he went from 3ft 5 inches if I remember right to now over 3ft 8 inches. This banded WT was fed peeps for the 1.5 years he was under my friends care, mice and a few peeps under my care, also one rat he snatched out of a thawing bucket when the cage was open and I was looking the other way.
I ran across a nutritional chart for cats, it gave the content of mice, chicken peeps, and rats in captivity, its suprising mice are highest by weight or mass in fat, peeps are second highest by weight or mass in fat, with rats suprisingly lower in fat than both. The protien level was higher by mass and weight in the mice. I cant remember which had higher calcium levels but it was shocking. Of course now I cant find the website anymore either.

[mbayless]

Shvar says:
He never submitted to have them grouped together as one subspecies. So the ionidesi, microstictus, angolensis, are all still subspecies of albigularis. Seems to me that the info can never be kept straight on classifications. Im glad in a way its easier to keep them separate.

Markb:
Shvar, I wrote in Reptiles what I have seen of skull structures of albigularis complex. Several herpetologists, Bill Branch (RSA), Paris Museum, Transvaal museum, British museum, Senckenberg museum all asked for reprints of those articles about it - and I have had follow ups from many of them about this articles. I considered the case closed, and nobody has written aboutthis on a peer-reviewed technical level - I will get around to it someday, but I have alot of other things I am working on, some of them on varanids, others not. So right now, from a lay perspective, they are a monotypic group consisting of 1 species (w/3 junior synonym names, V.a. angolensis, V.a. microstictus and V.a. ionidesi). Dr. Raymond Laurent agrees with me, and he described V.a. iondiesi in 1964. From a Herpetologist, or zoologist perspective, they are a monotypic complex consisting of 4 subspecies. The different is subtle, important to some, not important to others....that is where it stands. My opininon is not the definitive on this by any means or ways - merely an opinion.

Now for V. ocellatus = that is a toughy to figure out one way or any other way - Daniel Bennett, myself, Wolfgang Bohme, Robert Sprackland, and others do not know what to do with this species/ subspecies??

markb

[crocdoc]

Originally posted by coldblooded
I don't think he meant strictly fish, just using fish to vary the diet.

You may be thinking of Mercury, maybe?

Mike, he may have been thinking of thiaminase, an enzyme which can lead to vitamin B deficiencies in reptiles fed mostly on freshwater fish.

[coldblooded]

Oh.... I never hear about these things in my cave... :(

[mbayless]

Hi,
NO, I did not mean exclusively fish - only an additive - but if possible when doing this, feed whole fish, tail and head and all - it all turns into the same thing. I have also noticed that fish in the diet tends to give the varanids a better looking skin...but with all those vitamins/minerals, this is not really surprising.

coldblood - please email me: mkbve1792@aol.com

cheers,
markb

[coldblooded]

email sent, sir. :)


Mike