Snake Killing Snare for sale online!!!

[Herpkingdom]

This came in an email from www.CNAH.com

---------------------------------------------------------------------

NEWS RELEASE
The Center for North American Herpetology
Lawrence, Kansas
http://www.cnah.org
6 March 2005

Snake Snare Snaps Spines
Device Designed to Decapitate

As if the general public’s view on snakes were not already bad enough, a
company called SnakeSnare, LLC, in Iowa has taken it to the next level.
"SnakeSnare" is a device designed to intentionally decapitate wild snakes.

"SnakeSnare" is marketed on the internet and promotes use in areas like
neighborhoods and golf courses, "Where gunfire is impractical or illegal." The
website mentions that the product "can" capture a snake for relocation, but is
actually designed for "instant decapitation."

The marketing of the product seems to promote extermination of wild snakes,
and the site actually quotes the old adage "a good snake is a dead snake."

If you would like to voice your concerns about this product and it’s marketing
objectives, please see their website at

www.snakesnare.com

and voice your concerns.

Submitted by
Dean Alessandrini
Vice-President
The Greater Cincinnati Herpetological Society

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

So after a little research, I came up with the follwing information:

ok, this is a call to all members. Go to all of the sites you belong to and post this article. Make sure people know to go to the site and send emails to the company voicing their concerns about this product.

Please do not use threats or insults. Be calm, collected, and cool.

This is the site used to register the domain:

http://www.enom.com/

This is the host of the domain:

http://www.zenutech.com/

This is the registars data:

Registrant Contact:
SnakeSnare, LLC
John Keyloun (Whois Privacy and Spam Prevention by Whois Source)
+1.6027283336
Fax: +1.6027283336
1201 S. McClintock Dr. #114
Tempe, AZ 85281
US

Pass this info along to everyone you know in the herp community. Let's start sending emails and snail mail to this guy who sells a such a inhumane item.


Here is a list of all of the reptile sites I have posted this thread on:

http://herpkingdom.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=7952#7952

[HumphreyBoagart]

That is very sickening. I emailed them my two cents, but by the time I was done it was about 4 cents. Everyone needs to do this too.

[SaveTheSnakes1]

Snake Snare is a company in the US that has designed at device that kills snakes.

Here are some quotes from their site

Use SnakeSnare® to kill a dangerous snake instead of using a firearm, especially if gunfire is illegal;


Use SnakeSnare® to harvest valuable snake skins without damaging the snake by shotgun blast;


Use SnakeSnare® to instantly decapitate a snake. The skin and meat are more saleable with instant decapitation;


Use SnakeSnare® to kill dangerous rattlesnakes and vipers and other snake breeds;


Use SnakeSnare® to remove snakes from golf courses, public areas, camping sites, mobile home parks, trailer parks.




Im asking you all to PLEASE email them and tell them about your feelings! Thanks so much from me and on behalf of ''Save The Snakes 101''.

info@snakesnare.com

[the_frog_man]

OMFG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




thanx froggy

[SaIiLdVaEnR]

I dont think emailing them will have much of an impact if they are actually getting sales from them and it is legal.

[HumphreyBoagart]

Aiden:
I think not emailing them will have even less of an impact.

[Reticsrule]

whoever invented that thing and anyone who uses it are seriously messed up. why cant snakes just be treated like any other animal.

i say we go and decapatate the people that use it and see how they like having their head chopped off.

[jason23]

but they sure do gots some good snake recipes on there, and everybody knows that snakes is some good eatin!

[snakehunter]

yeah its one thing if you kill to eat and eat what you kill, its another if you kill just because you dont like something, If life where like that alot of people would not be here........maybe.......you!?!? haha

[jason23]

lol, maby. but seriously, due to the forum rules im unable to express my true feelings on this produt and the company selling it

[Rimshot]

now that my dear friends is what you call, IGNORANCE !!!

[wizbit13]

But when a snakes head is cut off the snake does not die instantly. I read somewhere that the head of the snake lives for quite some time after. So this to me does not seem like a humane way of killing the animal so should be made illegal on those grounds alone. This item really sucks.

Adam

[BoAddict]

i dont know why your all upset. do we not kill rats for our snakes? do we not set poison and traps for rodents around businesses? do we use the rodents that we kill around the businessesor homes? there are plenty of rodent lovers out there too.

look i dont agree with it but we all have a right to design and try to market our product.

emailing them wont do anything since hey its how they make money, just say you have invested some $$$$ in some snakes and are breeding them and a group emails you and asks you to stop breeding them are you gonna listen? i dont think so

Mike

[SaIiLdVaEnR]

Exactly BoAddict. I am surprised I haven't seen as many veteren members on here who perhaps have more experience or logic when it comes to something like this... most of them are new members

why cant snakes just be treated like any other animal.

Do you mean like cow, or chicken, perhaps pork, turkey, and even sheep?

We kill animals on a daily basis to quench our appetite for them. People eat snakes as well, I hope people know that.

It has come to my attention that we should no longer have mouse traps... why can't mice just be treated like any other animal.

Geesh, Emailing will do absolutely nothing because this kind of thing happens daily in many different aspects of life. To go with one and to deny the other is you being a hypocrite.

[Herpkingdom]

It is exactly that type of attitude that allows people to sell this type of product.



There are numerous other ways to rid your home & workplace and the areas around them from snakes. There are even companies that offer the service of removing snakes and other wildlife from your home and the surrounding areas, not to mention the local animal control agency.

This product has one use, to kill snakes. Period. He even has compared a similar product, one designed to capture/restrain snakes, stating that his is cheaper, thus implying that the other is also a snake killing implement which it is noI

How about this, an alternative use for this product..... I know of several areas where there are many feral cats....

http://www.herpkingdom.com/albums/My-Royal-Subjects/kitten431.jpg

[BAZ]

If people are going to use this to kill snakes they want to eat then fine. I can even understand it if they have no other option but to kill a venemous and dangerous snake in their back garden if it poses a threat to their young children. In many cases snakes can be removed without harming the snake but hey.. lets not get all emotional about this. As said before.. we kill rats and u have pro rat epople thinking we are barbaric. We eat meat and snake is meat to some people.

This is just a product and a tool to kill snakes the quickest way... its people who will use it properly or misuse it.

[Herpkingdom]

OK, add this product to this event where hundreds of snakes are killed every year. Times the event by say 50 and you might come close to the number of these events held every year, each responsible for the slaughter of hundreds of rattlesnakes, ratsnakes, kingsnakes, and others as well.

http://www.reptileeducation.com/roundup2004.html

[SaIiLdVaEnR]

Are you a vegetarian herpkingdom?

You are preaching to the choir. Many of us are snake enthusiasts (I am an invertebrate enthusiast but I know as well) and thus we have a decent idea of what is going on as well. This is not new knowledge to us.

[evilbitch11]

Originally posted by SaIiLdVaEnR
Are you a vegetarian herpkingdom?

You are preaching to the choir. Many of us are snake enthusiasts (I am an invertebrate enthusiast but I know as well) and thus we have a decent idea of what is going on as well. This is not new knowledge to us.


well i just joined to tell you what i think. what are you saying?? it is better to ignore the situation? you are certain that there is noway to stop it? or is it easier for you to just think that way? you call yourself a reptile lover? you seem more mad at jim for trying to stop this then you are at the people making it! out of site out of mind type thing, huh? well sorry but i find you pitiful!

[noahspets]

So, I totally understand where EVERYONE is coming from. I understand that what they say in there ads is not nice for us to hear. But I also kind of agree with SaIiLdVaEnR. There is a lot of other animals that get killed everyday. So what does make this so different? Just because we like live snakes, doens't mean everyone does. I like snakes as much as everyone else here; I don't like seeing ads like that but there is probably nothing anyone can do to stop it. Look at all the people that dont like the slaughter of cows. They havent been able to stop it.

[Herpkingdom]

That is where you are wrong. Look into some of PETA's operations as well as Green Peace.

If your statement holds true to every group, then the animals these groups fight to protect are not worth it either.

How about the fishing nets with teh hooks, those are now banned as a result of these groups and their efforts. I am not in anyway condoning these groups and all of their efforts, but making a point.

Some of us feel strongly that this is a bad product. This is our opinion and as such we are entitled to it. It is not my place to tell you your opinion is wrong, and I ask you to dothe same for those of us who believe this product is one we can do without.

[Lowell]

Well, I tried to let this pass, but as usual it appears that the few with some common sense are gonna get swarmed by the ignorant.

Does anyone here ever look in the mirror and apply the same moral yardstick to themselves that they wave so beligerantly at others? Obviously not! You may call yourself a reptile lover, but you had better make sure you've thoroughly examined your own actions and those of your peers before you start shooting your collective mouths off about some perceived injustice.

Boycotts? Protests? Petitions? You have got to be kidding! Do you honestly think you're going to make an impact on sales by making such a fuss? On the contrary, you're drawing so much attention to the product that the dealer will likely send you a thank you note for all the free publicity! Add to that the possibility that your own euthanasia practices, eating habits, clothing choices, etc be turned and used against you, and the circus is really underway! All we need now is some more clowns in the little car!

The same people that would employ a device such as this will have been using a rake or a rock up to this point. What are you doing to stop them? Oh right, we're all out there trying to educate the ignorant masses on the error of their ways, aren't we? Maybe if you channelled this blind rage into more constructive and positive efforts you might actually begin treating the cause instead of the symptom. Not every neighborhood park has a whizzbang like Stevo on call to gently relocate errant snakes and other potentially harmful fauna.

I don't like this sort of product or promotion any more than you do, but considering the alternatives I don't totally disagree with it either. As long as we keep encroaching on habitat, refusing to accept the inevitable consequences, this situation will repeat itself.

Of course, I'm sure we can all accept the untimely deaths of a few young humans in the interim as this method of threat management has been deemed inhumane... by the same people that would rather see the animals sentenced to a life of incarceration in a glass cell. Solitary confinement, save the odd conjugal visit, for the sole purpose of amusing and entertaining their captors. Fed a homogonous diet of prekilled rodents, regardless of their prey of choice, force fed if they don't comply. Hmmm...Decisions, decisions.

It still baffles me how so many people here are so willing to share their opinions with such enthusiasm without taking any other factors into consideration. Your own hobby is under threat from groups sharing this exact mindset and you scratch your heads wondering how they can be so narrow minded and uninformed....Maybe we should take a little time out to conduct some research on our own motives and actions before launching another knee jerk, pseudologic fuelled crusade against the unjust.


Lowell

[HeatherRose]

Great post Lowell...

I'm in agreement with pretty much everyone... (for once :p)

I'm sure people on rat enthusiast forums think we're absolute monsters, just as some of us regard these guys. We whack rats over hard surfaces and feed them off. :flick: However, I certainly do not agree with killing an animal in its natural habitat 'just because it's there'. I think it's a shame that many native species of snakes will be caught in these traps.

[noahspets]

HerpKingdom - Not once did I tell you that your opinion was wrong. I was just simply stating mine. Thats great that you feel so strongly that this is not a good product. I do too. I was just saying that not everything can be good and perfect in this world. It just doesn't happen. And I definately agree with Lowell. Sending them emails will not do anything. They will probably sit at their desks and laugh while reading and think about the money that they are making. Do you really think they care about what a few herp enthusiasts think?

[Herpkingdom]

Did any of you click through and read the facts of what is done at a Rattlesnake Roundup? Did you see the picture of the pits and the rows of table where the snakes are slaughtered?

I do not where snakeskin boots or belts, i don't have a snakeskin hat or wallets.

Everyone has their stand on a given issue, this is mine. If I feel I can do something to prevent this type of product from being sold, then I will.

You do not have to do anything. Sit there and laugh at the people posting how thye feel about this item.

We are a community of people who like reptiles and amphibians. Where there are legislatures (spelling) promoting bans on our hobby we all take a stand, why is this any different? Because it is a product being sold and not something that would affect your right to keep snakes?

[galad]

lmfao.. Lowell you pretty much took the words right out of my mouth, ya bugger. lol

People never look in the mirror Lowell, you should no that. IF they did could you imagine how different out society would be. There might actually be peace. But of course this will never happen, people are too full of them selves. They think so highly of themselves. Rarley do you see people helping eachother these days. No one has any respect for anyone but them-selves if they even have that.

But as far as the snakesnare goes. This deviced is maily promoted for residential uses. For parks, neiborhoods, and play grounds.
Do all of you against this device mean to tell me youd rather see dead children, then some dead snakes?
You talk about being inhumane?

Do you think a hawk looking for snakes as food is thinking
"Ok, now ill make sure to kill it as quick as possible so I dont hurt it too much."? Or any animals or prey for that matter. lol

Those last two paragraphs were right on the money Lowell.

Not that i am against keeping reptiles in captivity i myself own chameleons. As long as they are looked after properly, and not stuck into a tiny bare enclosure.
Some of you guys take things like this way to seriously and really need to lighten up abit.
Your actually comming off as a bunch of hippie tree huggers.

Not that you are but that what it would seem like to anyone new to the forum.



peace

ws

[galad]

Sorry for the second post.

So herpkindom your telling us that you would rather see children get bitten and die. Rather then have some dead snakes?

Like lowell said people using this product were probably killing snakes before in a less humane way, so whats the big deal, now they have a more humane way of going about it.

As far as the ratlesnake wound up goes i dont think anyone here really agrees with it. But there really isnt anything we can do about it. People have been protesting it for decades.
If your going to get mad at something like that then you might as well go protest at all the slaughter houses in the country as well.

[joey]

I agree with Lowell and I'm a " hippie tree huggers" and damn proud of it.

[BWSmith]

As far as the rattlesnake wound up goes i don't think anyone here really agrees with it. But there really isn't anything we can do about it. People have been protesting it for decades.
Actually, the main voice of protest is from those that I have dubbed "Couch Potato Conservationists". Those people that scream "That is not right!" but do nothing to stop it. There is amazingly little protest at these events. Why? People are lazy and these are held in little towns in the middle of nowhere. It is the attitude of "there is nothing we can do about it" that has let these prevail for so long. There are efforts in the works to end these events. And I applaud everyone that contributed to the Roundup Rescue last year. It was a fantastic success. Some people take initiative rather than accepting defeat.

Back to the issue at hand, the snare. Without getting into the debate too much. I will also mention that killing nonvenomous snakes is illegal in many states. This instrument is not discriminate on venomous or harmless.

The comparison to cows or feeder rodents is ludicrous. Those are animals that are bred for the specific purpose of food. These are wild animals. There is no viable comparison.

.But as far as the snakesnare goes. This deviced is maily promoted for residential uses. For parks, neiborhoods, and play grounds. Do all of you against this device mean to tell me youd rather see dead children, then some dead snakes?

It is quite obvious that you are uneducated in regards to legitimate envenomations.

I also find the comparison of keeping reptiles in captivity to decapitating wild animals in thier habitat to be seriously flawed.

Even if you disagree with protesting the snare, at least they are being proactive in something. That is more than I can say for the majority of the herp community.

[evilbitch11]

there are many people fighting for cows and pigs etc. both my daughters are vegetarians and have been for many years. it is worth it to them because they save 93 animals per year. this is worth it if it only saves one snake. i am amazed at all the sites involved in this and is fighting to stop it. this is the only site that feels it is fine. i'm embarrassed to even have joined this place. there are many people fighting for other animals and they dont give up. i guess snakes dont deserve the same thing. well i for one will fight for them and so will many other people. and this site is called sSnakesS? wow!

[SaIiLdVaEnR]

Evilbitch, debate if you wish, but I am not personally attacking you, so I would like you to not do it to me. I am not killing these snakes, I have no want to ever do a thing unless it was a life or death situation. Understand that I have over 40 animals at home, and I love every single one of them.

Just because I don't think an email will do much doesn't mean I should get personally attacked.

In one way or another, in someone's eyes, we are all practicing something terrible. Whether it is killing or sentencing animals to death for the feeding of our own pets, or eating animals ourselves. Heck, we could be considered (and often are) terrible for driving cars. If you want to state your opinion, do just that. Do not insult me as there is no need for it.

[evil11]

Originally posted by SaIiLdVaEnR
Evilbitch, debate if you wish, but I am not personally attacking you, so I would like you to not do it to me. I am not killing these snakes, I have no want to ever do a thing unless it was a life or death situation. Understand that I have over 40 animals at home, and I love every single one of them.

Just because I don't think an email will do much doesn't mean I should get personally attacked.

In one way or another, in someone's eyes, we are all practicing something terrible. Whether it is killing or sentencing animals to death for the feeding of our own pets, or eating animals ourselves. Heck, we could be considered (and often are) terrible for driving cars. If you want to state your opinion, do just that. Do not insult me as there is no need for it.

sending an e-mail may not do any good but what if by some miracle it does? wouldn't you like to be a part in stopping this? i will feel really good if i am. even if it just shows people that yes some people love thier snakes. you would be surprised at how many of my friends have said 'you really do love them'. alot of people dont even realize that snakes are to some people what dogs and cats are to others. oh, they made me change my username:o

[evil11]

for those who do want to stop this, please sign the petition.


http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?HW652005&1

[Nicky]

"Hunting laws vary widely according to the location where you live or intend to hunt. Please check your local hunting laws for open seasons and bag limits and be aware that some snakes are protected species and may not be hunted or handled. SnakeSnare, L.L.C. does not condone illegal hunting activity."

I copied this off thier website so at least thier being responsable enough to encourage people to check laws first before they go out and use it on endangered snakes or ones which are protected. I won't comment on how I feel about the product because I'm not sure at the moment I agree with both sides but I do believe its alot better than the old method of throwing a bucket over a snake and then running off to get a shovel to decapitate it, which is not always accurate.
Kayla

[concept3]

if their was an animal on my property that I beleived was a threat to my family I would get rid of it by any means neccesary.

[evil11]

what if it wasn't a threat? would you still?

[HeatherRose]

But what percentage of people who find snakes on their property like that are actually herpers and would know whether or not it's a risk?

[tHeGiNo]

i dont know why your all upset. do we not kill rats for our snakes? do we not set poison and traps for rodents around businesses? do we use the rodents that we kill around the businessesor homes? there are plenty of rodent lovers out there too.

Do you mean like cow, or chicken, perhaps pork, turkey, and even sheep?

We kill animals on a daily basis to quench our appetite for them. People eat snakes as well, I hope people know that.


As soon as I saw this thread, I knew someone was going to come up with that argument. As a rebuttle, from my point of view, there is a HUGE difference between raising and killing animals for the sake of sustaining life and killing animals because they are 'bothering us'.

But what percentage of people who find snakes on their property like that are actually herpers and would know whether or not it's a risk?

I would SURE hope that anyone in the vicinity of dangerous snakes - or dangerous animals as a whole - are able to identify them. I guess this isn't always the case though.

[evil11]

there is a HUGE difference between raising and killing animals for the sake of sustaining life and killing animals because they are 'bothering us'.

i couldn't agree more:)

[snake_bro]

Personally I would much rather have a few dead kids versus thousands of dead snakes. all the talk about not looking in the mirror, how about taking a different perspective. the animals of this planet we call, because we can, earth. we destroy everything. literally. we have even committed xenocide on many of the creatures that have lived here. but because they cant, they don’t rebel, they take it in silence, the abuse, the tyranny, the imperialism we have for THEIR land and habbitats. now reverse that and think of the big corporations as the humans and we as the animals. are we going to follow what was once our nature and do nothing? or are we going to do something because we can? personally im doing something because I can. the big corporations or in this case the cooperation making snake snare is not going to walk over me, because I will stand in its path and yes, it will go around me, but I sincerely hope that others like me will also stand in its path until it can find its path. when that happens we win, and victory is oh so sweet.

ps, more coming later, gotta spelcheck it.

[snake_bro]

"It has come to my attention that we should no longer have mouse traps... why can't mice just be treated like any other animal."

rodents, although they may have there own crowd, are a problem. they are over abundant, carry diseases, ruin a large number of things, and are a major nuisance. why not defend mites or fleas? they only affect our pets, they don’t bother us much, but we kill them just as efficiently. because they are in no danger of xenocide. there are more rats in new York than there are humans in the world. no one should give a damn about a rat. snakes are much less numerous, and understood, although rats and mice aren’t much understood, the people who are seriously afraid of them are irrational. the same with those who fear snakes, although in most cases they are undereducated(in the field of snakes) or have reason to believe or are mislead into believing that snakes are venomous, or as one some uneducated person would say, "poisonous". emailing them may have little effect, but it makes us feel like we did something to help the creatures we love in the wild being murdered because people are afraid of them. (no offense to any black people here, just an example) most white people became afraid when a big black guy is walking around them, thanks in most part to racism, does that mean we should do what Hitler did and attempt a xenocide? of coarse not, no one other than some one who doesn’t mind the *** would even think of putting forth the idea, (other than me, using it as an example), so why would you defend making money of something that is designed to murder? so a few rats die because they are pest, and ruin things. snakes are only "pests" to those who don’t like or are afraid of them. they do nothing that damages our property or anything else. you cannot defend this and not be a idiot for doing so. your defense is BS. this "snake snare" is something we cannot let roll over us because it will be the beginning of more snares and devices to kill snakes, and after that the bans of reptiles will become all the more abundant, and possibly even passed because few people defended our side. if that happens I vehemently blame it all on the ***** like you who think its not so bad. yes, I just joined here today, but im not a "newbie", I only joined because I heard you dumb***es thought this is alright, but maybe im the only person with any insight here, but now you have seen what I have (figuratively) and now I hope you understand how dumb you truly are. I apologize for disagreeing with your point of view and for calling it dumb or personally insulting any of you. I understand of your point of view and think it is a stupid one. My thoughts are out in the open, feel free to critasize anything I’ve said, im sure you’ll feel better for it.

~edited for profanity - Heather

[SaIiLdVaEnR]

Originally posted by evil11
what if it wasn't a threat? would you still?

What the h*ll kind of question is this? It has nothing to do with his statement at all. Do not put words in people's mouths.

[snake_bro]

no one put words in any ones mouth. do not assume some one wrong because you belive them to be or because they havent been agreeing with you.

"no other option but to kill a venemous and dangerous snake in their back garden if it poses a threat to their young children" -says BAZ

[kpugh]

Hey snake bro,

That's some pretty fuzzy logic ya got going there....rant about the tyranny of man kind, and xenocide... and then go on to say that no one should care about rats? Doesn't make much sense to me...

Also, for the most part, people on this forum try to just agree to disagree on hot topics like this one...and generally refrain from calling people dumb and stupid and idiots.

To me, idiots are those who can't see the small grain of truth that lurks in everyone's opinions - whether we agree with them of not.

I wish you luck in your closed minded little life....

[HeatherRose]

I only joined because I heard you dumb***es thought this is alright,

if that happens I vehemently blame it all on the ***** like you who think its not so bad.

If you can't argue without being childish, please don't partake in this discussion. Name calling is unecessary, and certainly doesn't get your point across more effectively. Grow up.

or as one some uneducated person would say, "poisonous"

Because someone doesn't know a fact like this does not make them uneducated. A Harvard math professor could use the term 'poisonous' in reference to a snake, that doesn't mean he's uneducated, he just doesn't know.

What do you mean by 'xenocide'? As far as myself, several online and hardcopy dictionaries are concerned, this word does not exist. Do you maybe mean 'genocide'?

You can't honestly be comparing the members here to Hitler and the ***, because some of us can see two sides to a situation, can you?

[snake_bro]

me? close minded? puhleaze. i see "the small grain of truth in everyones opinion" and my opinion is that there is, for the most part wrong. yes some of it is explicitly true, but the things i concentrated on in my "ranting" is what they are wrong on.and i never said no one should care about rats, i said abunch of stuff about how they are pests, and no one needs to care about them because we couldnt get rid of em all if we wanted to.

[kpugh]

"no one should give a damn about a rat"

Cleary I misunderstood you....

Hey, as long you're being rude to everyone here....

Maybe you should learn how to spell, and maybe brush up on your grammar before you start calling people idiots....

[BWSmith]

If we broke this down to logical debate and valid points, we would still be on page 1. But, oh, for a perfect world.

[kpugh]

Granted, logical debate is not usually a strong point of these "discussions"...I usually try not to get into it too much...but sometimes I just can't help it...

[evil11]

snake bro is great! he is on a snake site defending snakes. does anyone see anything wrong here? isn't everybody here suppose to be doing that?

[kpugh]

Sure, but you don't have to be an A** about it!!!!

Notice I haven't picked sides - Everybody has made some good points on both sides. I just object to rudeness...If I wanted to be surrounded by inconsiderate jerks I would hang out at Wal-Mart...

[HeatherRose]

snake bro is great! he is on a snake site defending snakes. does anyone see anything wrong here? isn't everybody here suppose to be doing that?

While his passion for the subject is admirable, the way he chooses to argue his points is not going to be well received.

You'll find a lot of members here have the ability to see both sides of a situation. While many here are snake lovers, they can protest something while seeing it's reason for being and still understanding the people who would use it.

In my opinion, these abilities would make for a better argument against this product, would it not?

[snake_bro]

spelling and grammer do not make a person a idiot. the way they use their values and morals to make opinions make a person an idiot. you, for intense value how to write proplerly. i dont give a damn about how i or you write, so long as the point is pass a long to a discernable degree. so, you figured out how to make a person words sound different then they were by taking out the content. and i understand why, the content is large and pointless to post for your purpose. which happens to be to prove you right and me wrong, but with the content you lose. if using logic to prove a point is illogical then that only proves that when the voice of truth is heard it is ignored or taken as something else. and thank you evil11, for proving something else for me that i have forgoten to mention. all who appose my opinion is a traitor. seriously, your on a site that is considered to be a snke loving or at least supporting community, but i am one of a few actually supporting the snakes. how trivial your lives must be

[clint545]

Well said Heather!

[snake_bro]

okay, so i can be an A$$ at times, im sorry i didnt include that in my apology. i just dont take to the opinions that have been posted here well. so i used a little profanity, im sorry i wasnt aware that the people here werent mature enough to understand that i use the particular words used to emphasize some, but i guess the art of writing isnt as appreciated as i thought.

[kpugh]

Sigh...

Well that's enough of this gong show for me....

G'night all!

[BWSmith]

All of your arguments are hollow and unrelated. Snakebro, you have yet to make a single valid point. I am certain that in your mind you made a great argument. But, unfortunately, your mind seems to be skewed from reality. All the methods of argument you just condemned, you utilized to the extreme.

all who appose my opinion is a traitor.
That is by far the most "holier than thou" statement I have heard in quite a while. I certainly do not agree with the snare, but I also do not agree with virtually anything you have said thus far. I feel that I would lower myself to a level of nonsensical ranting just by aligning opinions with someone such as yourself. If that makes me a traitor to herpetofauna conservation, I believe that even your friends will set you straight.

Basically, if you are going to argue, at least make sense or stick a valid argument in there somewhere. Trying to find a viable thought in those posts was like trying to read a Dr. Seuss book backwards looking for hidden meanings.

[oakley]

the snake snare could get some people who use it in some big trouble, what if it kills protected animals??

they shouldnt be allowed to use it in any area where there are protected snakes ..

just a thought

[HeatherRose]

all who appose my opinion is a traitor

:rolleyes: We're ALL here for the same reasons as you, we love animals... and well said BW.

im sorry i wasnt aware that the people here werent mature enough to understand that i use the particular words used to emphasize some, but i guess the art of writing isnt as appreciated as i thought.

Actually, it's not immaturity being displayed but maturity. You don't need profanity to get your point across, and expressing that it is not necessary doesn't make one immature.

I would hate for this thread to be closed, so hopefully we can all return this to a civil, logical and enjoyable debate/discussion.

[Nicky]

Originally posted by oakley
the snake snare could get some people who use it in some big trouble, what if it kills protected animals??

they shouldnt be allowed to use it in any area where there are protected snakes ..

just a thought

I agree with you but i'd just like to add mind you i'm as much against the snare as anyone else , thier alot worse ways to kill snakes I've known relatives down south who have killed snakes with lawn mowers and shovels:( ( which usually misses the head on the first try) People will kill snakes regardless of what products are out thier to make it faster for the human, It takes education to truely change the reality of most people are afraid of snakes and in the right situation would much rather kill it then identify it and call the proper people to remove it. I wish people could coexsist with wildlife better but thats just not the reality of the matter. It will take dedicated people to go out everywhere to educate the general public on these awsome creatures, not a few e-mails or else where simply fixing the symptons not the problem.
Kayla

[SaIiLdVaEnR]

and i never said no one should care about rats, i said abunch of stuff about how they are pests, and no one needs to care about them because we couldnt get rid of em all if we wanted to.

You contradicted yourself in the same sentence.... please people think about what you write.


I would also not like to see this thread to close, but I would like more common sense and less irrational thought being used. Some people are just getting ridiculous.

[Herpkingdom]

You have to start somewhere, even a symptom needs to be treated or it will get worse.

THere are numerous reptile sites out there that contain information about all types of snakes both domestic and imported. If bitching about this product is not something you like, then do something to educate the public about snakes.


Education is the key, but this site does not have one feature aimed at educating the public to snakes that can be found in their backyards.

I am not holier than thou. I am just taking a stand on a product that i feel does not need to be. If people use shovel and hoes, so be it, do not offer them an item that will make them over confident to the point where someone may get bit in the process of dispatching a snake they do not even know if it is venomous or not. It may even be a protected species.

Have you ever been to the deep south? Every snake that is not black is considered a Copperhead or Cottonmouth. That means Gartersnakes, Ribbon Snakes, Corn Snakes, Rat Snakes, Water Snakes, Rainbow Snakes, Mud Snakes, and the list goes on and on. This mindset is due to lack of knowledge about the snakes in that part of the US. It is an example that I am sure is to be found throughout the North American Continent, including Canada.

So we are once again back to education. If we as a community of people, join together and help get the knowledge out to people by the most powerful informatiojn source in the world, there will be less killing of snakes in the wild. More people will know how to prevent having the situations on their proprties that draw snakes to them.

I did not come here to bash anyone's opinion, and I would appreciate it if you did not bash my opinion.

I am not a tree huggin hippie., I cut my hair above my shoulders years ago :)

[BWSmith]

I came close to 10,000 people at my educational displays and classes last permit year. Hopefully I can top that this year. Those bring in alot of calls for snake removals. So education does play an important role. The ones I remove are saved the shovel. Less demand for the snare :) Baby steps.

[snake_bro]

"You contradicted yourself in the same sentence.... please people think about what you write."

if you pay attention to what your reading in the first part it says "should", in the second were you say i contradict i contradict myself it says "need". i agree with you whole heartedly, but i also wish to add something, read carefully before you assume something. and as for this being abunch of argument, not my fualt people are easily distracted from the topic when they feel the need for some one to be correct by what you think is correct. it will only start more crap that laeds to us being even further off topic. and i do not belive my comment to be in any way a holier than thou type statement, it states that if you dont believe in what ive said you ARE a traitor, now if you cannot read, comprehend, or contenplate every detail ive posted, then you are jumping to conclusions because i offended you, or something else and you dont realize how trecherous you are. well ive said all i need to, and more. get back to the discussion at hand without further intereption. i sincerely hope i changed some of the opinions here.

[Herpkingdom]

Snake_bro, what we do not need is a PETA menatility here. This is not about forcing your opinion onto others, it is about voicing concern over a product that is being marketed used fear of snakes as a gimmick to raise sales.

[BWSmith]

and i do not belive my comment to be in any way a holier than thou type statement, it states that if you dont believe in what ive said you ARE a traitor, now if you cannot read, comprehend, or contenplate every detail ive posted, then you are jumping to conclusions because i offended you, or something else and you dont realize how trecherous you are. well ive said all i need to, and more. get back to the discussion at hand without further intereption. i sincerely hope i changed some of the opinions here.
The fact that you reiterate your elitist point of view further illustrates what I stated. But no worries, you have not offended me personally. I must have some degree of respect for someone first. That is simply not the case. You just sound like an overzealous child, which may be the case for all I know. But nonsensical rantings are doubtful to change anyone's mind so much as logical and pertinent point. If I am deemed a traitor by you, then so be it. I would challenge you to provide as much education and conservation programs as me. So to me, your opinions ranks up there with a guy flipping me off on the freeway.

One would think that with this many posts, someone would have offered a possible solution or action to, at least, hinder the sales of these guillotines on a stick.

[snake_bro]

we have offered possible solutions, make the seller of the product extremely educated in what he is selling and how it effects snakes and the people using the snare et cetra et cetra. instead of all wasting our time here we should be emailing this guy and signing that petition that alleges to be sent out to all the places it should be sent to. it should also be sent with a letter, with all our opinions on what makes this snake snare detrimental to the enviroment and whatever, other than the fact that it kills snakes, they obviously know it kills snakes, dont waste time telling them that. tell them how, instead of killing the snake, what if some trys to use this weapon (as i now deem it) and ends up getting themselves killed because in trying to kill the snake they only brought themselves closer to the thing that they would have stayed away from in the first place. this weapon not only holds the ability to kill snakes but to make the weilder overconfident, and overconfidence leads to mistakes. email them about that, or others like it. qoute the stuff other people or saying, dont leave a good point go to rot. just my 2 cents. our rights only allow us to do so much, make us of it.

[Lowell]

Thanks BW!

I think I soiled myself from laughing so hard at the Dr. Seuss analogy!

[nat_the_brat]

just my two cents... and its probably so obvious I don't know why I am bothering to post but ....
in regards to protesting, petitioning, and generally making it known and argued against has proven in history to achieve many things including voter rights, higher standards of human and animal rights, environmental issues, etc etc I could go on and on.
Point being, without people pushing for a change.... nothings going to change.
I agree that the manufactorer probably doesn't give a damn about what we have to say but at least they know there are people opposing it. Not the greatest deal but its a start.
The root of the problem however lies in how people view snakes. As long as fear and misconception is prevelent so to will be a market to destroy them.
I know it seems impossible and a waste of time to some to even bother considering the massive population that is for killing but its gotta start somewhere right ? An attitude of "its not going to make a difference" is the most sure fire way of making it stay that way.

In regards to killing them because they are dangerous... It seems to me that contraption would only be useful if you carry it around with you at all times. Cause if a snake is about to bite your kid, its going to happen before you know its even there let alone giving you the time to run to your garage and fetch it. Yes, I know that if you spot it in your yard or in a public area it needs to be removed but its just as easy to call for snake removal or just wait till its gone.

I know of many a gater snake killed out of fear it was poisonous and I am guessing that if someone is that afraid of a snake to begin with, I can't see them approaching a good sized rattler close enough to get the loop over their head.

[nat_the_brat]

gater - garter

[M_surinamensis]

Eh.

The guy who seems to the the sole owner and employee of the company "manufacturing" these things has some issues with responsible and accurate marketing in the past. He got verbally murdered when he was selling it as a handling tool since it's unsafe for that use. He made a claim that he was no longer going to market it as one... which he seems to be holding by but he's replaced those lines with a few lies about the intrusiveness and danger of snakes- which I again have a problem with.

If he sold it as a tool for decapitating (or at least smushing in half, getting a snake's head and ONLY a snake's head in a loop of wire has got to be difficult) and dropped the crap about "Only good snake is a dead snake protect your home and your family from these beasts and fight the forces of evil" crap then I'd again have no issue. If you remove the really idiotic marketing, you just have a tool. Tools aren't inherently good or bad, just well or poorly designed to fufill a purpose. Any application and morality is inherent in the user rather than the inanimate object.

If he had legitimate numbers for snake envenomations in encounters NOT instigated by the envenomee and maybe a few nice lines about the hanta virus and the fact that it's illegal in most states to kill wildlife that's not posing a danger to life or property without the appropriate permits then it'd be just a tool. A poorly designed tool that would only be purchased by complete mongoloids, forcing his "business" into bankruptcy overnight... but just a tool.

Arguing with the object seems silly to me. Arguing with the mentality that's promoted by it's manufacturer and the social mentality that promotes the common applications it's likely put towards; there's value there. Gotta be careful about how it's done though, fighting irrational propaganda WITH irrational propaganda is counterproductive.

[Herpkingdom]

Why not do both Seamus?

Why not protest the product as well we educate the general public in better, safer ways to remove snakes from their homes and surrounding property?

[BurmBaroness]

Just a thought.................this is just as dangerous to inexperienced people who might be using it as it would be to the snakes. It has been touched on, but seriously. If some guy who has never had experience with snakes, and you KNOW those are the people who will be buying this thing, runs up on a big WDB, how long do you think he is going to **** around trying to get that loop around the snake's head without royally ticking off the snake?? How many people are going to get bitten trying to use this stupid thing?? I have never tried to get a loop around a snake's head before, but it can't be that easy. Especially not a wild snake that is already on the defensive.

[Yness]

I dissagree with killing any animal for the sake of killing; however killing for self-defense(a life or limb is in iminant danger) or for sustainance is justifiable. I have experienced the irrational fear that people have for snakes. Most people that have seen my snakes, and are afraid, don't run for a tool to help dispatch it, they run to get, and stay, as far away as possible.

I attempt to educate as much as possible, a lot of people I know and meet are afraid of snakes yet have not come into serious contact with them. All they know is what they see in the media, from documentaries to the portrayal of evil in movies, etc. I take my snakes outside once in a while, and whenever I have people over I show them the snakes. A lot of initial reaction is fear, but through gentle handling techniques I have shown people that snakes are not "evil" or dangerous (ALWAYS STRESS THAT MY SNAKES ARE NOT VENOMOUS AND THAT VENOMOUS SNAKES ARE BEST LEFT UNTOUCHED UNLESS YOU ARE EXPERIENCED AND HAVE THE PROPER TOOLS AT HAND). Most people come to enjoy watching them and some even go so far as to touch and handle them. So with that I have also seen the benefit of education.

I think that if someone wants to market a tool that is going to force people that are afraid of the animal they are trying to dispose of to come within striking range of said animals, all the more power to them. I just hope that they have to money to settle all of the law suits that are coming from the tagged people.

Don't know how much this all applies to this thread but these are the thoughts that have come out while reading it.

Yness

P.S. Just a point to show how structure to a piece of writing makes it soooooo much easier to read. The arguments do not run into each other and therefore confusion is prevented and your point is made a lot easier to understand. Sorry I had to say it.

[evil11]

yness: you are absolutely correct in my eyes. i have helped alot of people overcome thier fear of snakes. when i got my first one my mom wouldnt even come into my house. that was 2 yrs. ago. since that time she has went and drove me and my snake to the snakes surgerys 3 times and befor her last surgery my mom was petting her tail :) my snakes go out in the sun in the summer and i am amazed at how many neighbors finally came around.

[joey]

Are evil11 and snake_bro related or good chums? hmmmmmmm......... And what 's wrong with "tree huggin hippies?" I live in a whole town full of them.....

Save the unborn jesus freak snake worshippin hippie black rat baby whales!

round and round we go, where we'll stop who the **** knows...

[Herpkingdom]

lol

[evil11]

nope not related.

[galad]

LOl there is nothing wrong with tree hugging hippies. Just some people really dont like them, mostly the people killing all these snakes.

As far as snake bro's way of thinking goes i dont know what to say.

But yes i deffinatly beleave that education is the only way we can stop the killing of so many snakes. We will never stop everyone from killing snakes. Some snakes are a nucience and need to be rid of before harming a child or someones pet. What we need to stop is that people that go out looking for snakes to kill. They are the real probleme.
But in my opinion these people are in a way like red necks. v.s racism. These racist people have no good reason for thinking the way they do, they just do. And no matter how much education is out there, most of them will remain racist, untill the day they die. But good news is. Most of these people are dying off and racism is because less of an issue. It will still always exist but at least we can say the amount of racist people in the world has decreased by half. Hopefully in the future racism wont be a probleme, as much as it is now.
Now we can look at these people that kill snakes the same way.
Many of them will never bother to become educated on the topic. Their grand parents killed snakes, thier parents killed snakes and now they want to kill snakes. Just as racism is passed down through the generations. SO are ideas that there is nothing wrong with killing snakes. Im not saying dont bother trying to educate these people, because abviously we have to try. We may convert 50 % of the people killing snakes that it is not necessary, but there will always be people that think it is.
Same as with paoching gorillas. Many people have stopped with this horrific crime, but yet there are still those that do.

So my point is yes we can educate these people. But dont get too upset if we never stop all of them. Arrogance rules over education.

peace

ws

[evil11]

So my point is yes we can educate these people. But dont get too upset if we never stop all of them. Arrogance rules over education.


your post was great. all so very true :)

[joey]

Originally posted by galad
. Most of these people are dying off and racism is because less of an issue. It will still always exist but at least we can say the amount of racist people in the world has decreased by half. Hopefully in the future racism wont be a probleme, as much as it is now.
ws


Sad thing is---the amount of racist people is unfortuantely increasing. When you have the population expanding (exploding) like it is people tend to become even more intolerable. It's something that seems to be ingrained in humankind since the beginning. Whether or not we can 'evolve' out of it completely is another question.

...sorry don't want to get off topic here.

Anyway--I think there will ALWAYS be stoopid people who really believe that animals have no souls, feelings, emotions and were put on the earth solely for man. To be dominated, controlled, harvested, eaten, etc etc. I

If it's not a snake trap then it's mass killings of praire dogs or rattlesnakes or submarine sonor that kills mammals in the ocean or killing of coyotes that get to close to where humans live or oil spills that destroy countless amounts of creatures, dog fighting, animal neglect, abuse and on and on and ON AND ON AND ON..........

man is a BAD animal.

[galad]

I could not agree more. Man is the worst animal on the planet. If anything we should be killed off ( or at least people that cannot respect our planet) then maybe this earth will finally be at peace.

Ya i geusse i never looked at racism that way. I really dont understand it though. Yea there are lots of people immagrating to north america. But alot of these people come here for good reason. Many are trying to escape war and genocide, also alot has to do with religouse beleifs. Why instead of getting mad at these people and making fun and harrassing them, can we not help them to build better lives for themselves and their families. Anyone who argues that they are taking over OUR counrty are completely ******** in my opinion. Everyone of us unless native of inuit can retrace our heritag to anouther country. OUr families were once alien to this world. What makes these people coiming in now so different. lol

Sorry to get off topic there, but in away the topics do have some similarities.

Good to see we have stopped the name calling. Really its not needed does nothing but get people upset.

peace

P.S I myself am some what of a hippie tree hugger. When I get my dreds I'll be right in there with the hippies lol

ws

[Cruciform]

Just skimmed through the thread, and there's a number of reasonable well thought out posts and a few grandstanders.

One thing I take exception to is the comparison of the situation to Nazi Germany. Perhaps snakebro should take the time to familiar themselves with Godwin's Law: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Marketing a tool to ophidophobes is nowhere near the organized and systematic destruction of a race or species.

BWs posts about rattler roundups would be a much better parallel to genocide, but I just don't see snakebro's post offering up a good comparison.

[galad]

Sorry to get off topic. I'll keep it short, but I just have to say it.
Usually I will say to each his own. Everyone has the right to their own opinion.
But when it comes to people that act the way snake bro was, I lose total respect for anything they have to say.
That's the main probleme with the internet. People can act anyway they want, and not have to deal with the repercusions.
It's way to easy to get away with being an ***, and I deffinatly think it is eventually going to ruin our already crumbling society. Eventually the idea of respect will have no meaning.
Compared to 20 years ago. What do you think the rate is of teachers having nervous break downs?

peace

ws

[joey]

Originally posted by galad
I.

Yea there are lots of people immagrating to north america. But alot of these people come here for good reason. Many are trying to escape war and genocide, also alot has to do with religouse beleifs. Why instead of getting mad at these people and making fun and harrassing them, can we not help them to build better lives for themselves and their families.



P.S I myself am some what of a hippie tree hugger. When I get my dreds I'll be right in there with the hippies lol

ws


Because people can be completely consumed with hatred and they blame all their life failures/dissappointments on others instead of looking into their own hearts. It's earier to point and blame. People can be totally evil.


GOOD for you! ;)

peace love freedom and happiness that's what it's all about.......at least that's what I strive for on a daily basis.

[Herpkingdom]

Back to the topic at hand......

As far as the petition.boycott, if it has an effect great, if not so be it. What can we as a community do to educate others ouside of the community that snakes are not evil, bad, and slimy?

[Diverdude1234]

Originally posted by snake_bro
me? close minded? puhleaze. i see "the small grain of truth in everyones opinion" and my opinion is that theres is, for the most part wrong.

no offence but there is no such thing as a wrong opinion. My opinion is mine to make, and mine alone, you can't say that it is wrong because you dont agree.

[Lowell]

Ok, maybe I've had a few too many again, but have we reached something equivalent to common ground yet? It appears to me that we are, for the most part, in agreement that continued and renewed efforts to educate are of greater importance than lowering ourselves to the level of the aforementioned freak.

Is that accurate or am I simply too loaded to comprehend? Has this motley group of philosophical deviants actually reached a mutual conclusion? Has no one been banned? No threads locked? No posts deleted?

Well spank me silly! There's got to be a chipmunk to choke around here somewhere. I do believe a celebration is in order!

[Herpkingdom]

Not on this site, but anothe has locked it down and banned one or two members.

this is what i have been putting together;;;

http://www.herpkingdom.com/rescue/removal.html

this is a link to Southern Reptile Education another site geared toward educating the general public

http://www.reptileeducation.com

[evil11]

everybody here got involved one way or another. may have been different opinions but still involvement. it got heated up a few times here but the thread didnt get locked. thank you for that :)
another site whose owner isn't so well liked didnt agree with people so he locked the thread and banned members. i just want to thank everybody for thier input and for signing the petition.

[snake_bro]

Diverdude; it was my opinion that others were wrong because it is not my own. now put that next to your own statement and we should have to sides of the same blanket. if youve never heard that, niehter have i, i think i just made it up. what ever, back to the topic. wait scratch that some thing else real quick like, DAVID U SUCK. okay, now bact to the topic. yes everyone is in an agreement that the ignorant need to be brought up to speed, or at least make them go fast enough that they arent like the insanly old people that are still driving on the highway although they drive at 45 mph when the speed limit is 70. not true with some old people, just an example, no offense intended. i try, and i f anyone else would itd be appreciated, but the best thing we can do is to help the wannabe herpers who will turn into us who will also educate the ignorant. but we still need to work on the educating. see if you can tell people some thing about snakes at your workplace at a break, like li=unch or a smoking break, and maybe bring some snakes with you. tell them everything you can, encourage them to get one, so long as you encourage them to learn and properly care for them first, do not rush anyone into it. by increases our population (herpers) we increase everything, yes it has some drwbacks like the owners who continue to be ignorant in there caring of their snake, but websites like this and all the others also help with that.

[Herpkingdom]

i have a from reading that :(

[HeatherRose]

what ever, back to the topic. wait scratch that some thing else real quick like, DAVID U SUCK. okay, now bact to the topic.

I will not say this again. Grow up and stay on topic. Bashing members will not be tolerated here. I will not hesitate to shut this thread down if this happens again.

[galad]

No offence Heather, but I really dont think shutting down the whole thread is necessary.
Most people on this site are able to interact with others in a mature and respectful manor. Those who cannot act accordingly should be the ones getting punished.
You know who you are so just stop the childish nonsence, I wouldn't doubt it if you were a child. If you cannot play nice with others......
Do we really have to resort to that sort of thing?

peace

ws

[Slannesh]

This is gonna be a long one, I can tell :)

I was gonna just let this one slide cause it really does seem like a no brainer for the most part, but then certain people; (i'm sure you all know who you are) decided that giving attitude was more fun than bothering to do any actual research and insulting people who actually know what they're talking about. So here I am :)

First off, let's be a little realistic. Yes the device in question is at best dangerous to use and the informed among us know that decapitation is not a humane method of euthanizing snakes. We must, however, keep in mind that the general population does not know this and when faced with a possibly venomous snake in their kid's sandbox they really woudn't care.

That being said, it's targetting a pretty niche market isn't it?

I'm in complete agreement with BW in his opinion that education is our most useful tool in situations like this. I spend some time doing school sessions myself and see first hand the interest and in some cases fear that people have of snakes. Screaming and moaning is considerably less effective.

And now a factual pet peeve;

You cannot murder animals. You can kill, maim, end the life of or euthanize them but you cannot murder them.

Dictionary.com defines murder as

"The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice."

I understand that the term 'murder' is trying to illicit an emotional response when used in this manner but I personally find it pretty offensive to place equal value on an animal and a human life. Don't get me wrong. Animal lives are very valuable but you just cannot compare them in general terms as 'on par' with a human life.

I've touched on this in the past, but for the benefit of the new people who this will be addressing i'll repeat myself. Respect is not automatically granted, it's earned and can much more easily be lost than gained. When your first dozen posts are poorly written, difficult to understand and generally abusive of other people's ideas, opinions and experiences you'll very quickly find that you get little to no respect here or anywhere else in life.

Calling fellow herpers traitors simply because we don't buy into your mostly emotionally charged and fact light rhetoric does not paint you in a good light snake_bro. In fact, it quite effectively relegates you to the role of fool or "fringe group". If you want to be taken seriously i'll give you a little advice.

1) Take the time to go over posts and edit them. This means having a quick look at the spelling and grammar, (paragraphs are your friend) but if it's not your strong suit run it through a spell checker. This isn't an english class no, but you can't be taken seriously if no one knows what you're trying to say.

2) Try to avoid personal insults just for the sake of making insults and keep the emotions in check.

That second one is going to make some people laugh because I can be quite the caustic ******* when i'm posting to certain people but I do at least try to make factual observations when i'm being insulting :)

For the record I think the device in question is dangerous, barbaric and for the most part sadly unnecessary. If people would take the time to become even passingly familiar with the local species of fauna and keep their yards half decently clean they would dramatically reduce the # of encounters with snakes in general.

Well i've been nice for a change :) But that can be quickly remedied if good advice is not taken. Have a good one all.

[joey]

Slannesh, ever heard of a 'murder of crows' ? It's like saying a flock of seagulls. I love that--- a murder of crows.....so cool. Would be an excellent band name.

...nice post, btw

[Slannesh]

Yeah, I know about that definition as well, but that's a whole different kind of murder and doesn't really have any relevant context to the discussion at hand, which is why I didn't mention it :)

[joey]

my bad. I know it was off topic. oh well.

[galad]

Dont worry my last off topic post in this thread. Although this has kinda been the theme ever since a certain someone came into the discusion.

Great post slannesh. Hopefully people will take your advice.
One thing I dont agree with is the fact that people have to earn respect to get it. Thats the probleme with our society everyone thinks that way. "well if he/she doesnt show me any respect. Why should I show him/her any?"
If everyone is waiting for everyone else to show respect before they can, then were not going to get very far are we?
Why can we not try to show everyone respect the first time we meet them. At least give them the benefit of the doubt. Dont judge people by the way they look, it rarely works out. I've met some really goofy looking people in my time. But you know what, I gave them that chance and most of the time everything worked out.
If you meet them and show respect right away chances are that person will mostly likely notice, and will want to act in the same manor. Why would anyone want to give you a chance if you show them rudeness, or dissrespect.

So if any of you have been having problemes with people around you, look at how youve treated them in the present and the past. Even slight things like tone of voice can scare people away.

Remember we only live once. Do you really wnat everyone to think your an *** in this life. There are no second chances. Most people are not very willing to change their opinion of someone, no matter what they try and do to make it up.

peace

ws

[Gary D.]

Good post Slanesh (my personal value on human life aside, that's just another OT departure that this thread doesn't need).

I'm just going to throw a couple of thought of my own take them as you will.

see if you can tell people some thing about snakes at your workplace at a break, ... and maybe bring some snakes with you.

"High I'm elder Snake- bro, and I'd like to give you a copy of our magazine..."

Sorry, now to the point. Here's a phrase we should be familiar with , " a little knowledge is a dangerous thing."

Education is important, sure no argument there. but I will add ONLY if done in an appropriate setting by responsible and knowledgeable individuals. I've seen skin heads argue that it is their right to walk arround in public with a boa on their shoulders, and justify their actions as educating the public about snakes. GONG!

Herpetoculture needs educators not activists (teachers, not preachers).

Now to the original issues, The product is indeed a poorly planned product and can inded be detrimental to it's market users (nervous middle class suburbanites). Who else is going to buy an garden implement with one purpose, that a shovel, an axe or a shotgun will do. Certainly not those whom are the primary threat to snake populations. Fact is the product will disappear quietly from the market like so many other "late night infomercial" type products. Petitions are only usefull for demonstrating that there is a number of individuals (accountable and verifyable by name, signature, age of majority and contact information) in a local demographic who are in favour or opposed to an idea, or proposition, and in a psudo-political arena. Beyond that they are a complete waste of time (especially to an individual with a product to market and an audience for that product), and a widespread online petition is even less usefull in any context, with no political or legal weight.

Gary D.

[snake_bro]

the whole point of nringing snakes with you is to help people either conquer their fears or to prove that snakes arent slimy. ever heard of "hands on" teaching? you can know everything there is to know about some thing, but there is always the possiblilty that everything you learned is wrong. you can read some thing or listen to someone telling you a snke isnt slimy, but they can ALWAYS chose to not believe you. hands on is the best form of teaching, its a proven fact. jst wondering but was my woodshop teacher being an activist when he told us what the powertools where used for, and how to use them, and all safty precedures, and then told to go out and use them to make little boxes? what im saying is along the same lines. just a point.

Slannesh, the thing about paragraphs are your freinds, hilarious. every post i made was done very hastily, most mispellings are typos (me not being the best typer) and i threw away all meaning of proper writing when i saw some of the posts here.

My opinion on this subject is extremely strong. so if i have bashed you in my passionatly typed posts, i am sorry. I normally try not to, but when your trying to get all your ideas out at once, it comes out as well, along with everything else, that to the readers may seem to be incoherrant rantings. and in areas are.

although a petition may not be effective, it takes less than a minute of your time. if you havent yet "signed" it, please do so, the only thing that can come from it is good, it cant do any harm, if it does anything at all.

Yes, if the random people who would buy this product and intend to use it joined these sites, it would be free advertising. but that simply doesnt happen. everyone on these forum type sites based on reptiles LEARN about them. in that way we are educating these people, just by posting something here or there or helping some one with their new addition. so, what are the chances that they leave this site and buy this snake snare, and use it? very little im sure, so i believe that this "free advertisement idea is invalid, but that is only the opinion i come up with by reading yours and think about it. if there is a factor in this i have missed, please by all means, correct my idea.

[Slannesh]

Snake_bro:

A MUCH better post there. Glad to see that you aren't the type who's too big to take good advice when it's offered.

Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying that passion is a bad thing. It's not. But passion only works when people already agree with you. An empassioned speech will do little if nothing to convert someone who does not think like you do.

You have a very good point about 'hands on' learning which is exactly what myself and BW were promoting. But we have to be careful with this as well. Taking a few herps into a classroom to talk about them when you're been invited is one thing, strolling down the street with a 9' boa constrictor on your shoulders scaring little old ladies does nothing to educate the public, it only reenforces the stereotypes that so many people already believe. I've spent some time doing eductional talks with my herps at local schools and other members of our local community are much more active in that area than I am. While some people are unable to get over the irrational fear, many can and do at least come around to realize that snakes aren't the evil dangerous things that they are portrayed to be.

I can get pretty worked up about stuff I care about too, it's part of being human so there's no shame at all in that. My whole point really was that rushing posts without rereading them and speaking only from the heart without taking the time to think your points out just muddies the issue. I do know from experience that online petitions hold very little weight with most people, lawmakers especially. Taking the time to write a letter on good old fashioned paper is a much better way of getting the attention of your MP or Member of Congress.

I really think that education of the general public is a much better way to go than spending the time and energy trying to stop the use of these devices directly. Wouldn't it be better for everyone involved if the snake in question didn't need to be killed? If a person knew it was a harmless gartersnake instead of a rattlesnake they would be much less likely to kill it in the first place. If no one 'needs' to kill the snakes then the need for such a device dries up and you achieve your goal and everyone is better informed because of it.

A much better solution in my opinion.

[Rikki]

Thats horrible :(

[Herpkingdom]

What everyone is now talking about is education. Perfect! I couldn't have planned it better if I tried. Education and ideas about spreading the education is exactly the by-product I was looking for what I posted about the snare.

The petition and boycott is the catalyst to get more people to help in educating the general public about snakes and other herps as well as the other exotic animals (and inverts) that many of also keep.