90 Gallon for a BP?

[End Times]

Hey all,

I was planning on buying a 90 gallon aquarium (48"X24"X18") to house my future BP (will be my first snake, but after countless hours of research I think BP's are the species for me!) but after reading some more, it seems that most people seem to think that would be way too big. I was thinking "the bigger, the better" as I want my snake to have a good home, but now I'm wondering if indeed a smaller tank would be a better home!

What does everyone think? Has anyone successfully kept a BP in a 90 Gallon? I'm hoping so, because I've already purchased a top that would fit one (48" long by 18" wide), although the top would also fit a 65 gallon because they too are 48" long by 18" wide (just 6 inches shorter in height).

Well, is a 90 gallon too big?

Thanks all! Oh, haven't introduced myself in the proper section yet so, my name is Rob, I'm 23, live in North Bay Ontario and work as an animal control officer.

Edit: Forgot to mention that although I've never owned a snake that I did have the pleasure of babysitting a ball for about two months time a couple of years ago. So I have the tiniest, tiniest, tiniest taste of what it would be like to own one.

[malaysianbloods]

Yes I think that would be too big and think that they do alot better in smaller shorter tanks. I think that if you buy the 65gallon instead and put alot of hides in it then that might be ok, but then again if you are able to sell the lid then go with a 30gallon long. HTH

[End Times]

What the dimensions of a 30 long?

Oh, and whats HTH? (sorry forum thing is still kind of new)

[zero&stich]

What's up Rob? I'll share my experience with glass vs "the rubber enclosure". When I had them in glass, each in their own house, I run into a few problems with glass enclosures.
First the cons-
*Hard to maintain temps(was usin cermanic heat emitters for them, til trial and error made me switch to pads)
*Awful difficult time to maintain the proper humidity
*Skittish feeders
*Glass is very heavy and hard to clean, let alone move
Pros-
(Actually can't think of any, at the moment, sorry)

Rubbermaid/Sterlites
Pros-

*Opaque(sp) enclosure, made my snakes feel more secure as I can walk by without them darting and pulling the "Ball"
*Feed better for me, because of the security of hides and the opaque enclosure
*Much easier to maintain temps with pad/thermostat
*Ten times easier to maintain humidity levels
*Stackable, more free room
Cons-
Only thing I ran into was having my cooler side, too cold(68-70) And high humidity. I forgot the basic physics of heat and air. As heat rises, air drops and was reminded to raise my enclosures 2 feet off the floor. Since I had no means of doing so, my comp desk is metal. I remembered how cermanic heat emitters dry out the air, so I rigged against my comp desk, bout 3 feet away from the enclosures. It allowed my cooler temps to rise to 75 degrees and dropped the humidity in the mid 60's.

Sorry for the long post, but hope this helps.

[End Times]

Thanks, that is helpful. I certainly see why some people, particularly those with many specimens, would go with rubbermaid housing. My only problem with that is that I want to be able to watch my snake! It's much easier to observe them in an aquarium. If I used rubbermaid, I'd only get to see my snake when I took it out for handling. That kinda bugs me...

[Iceman]

Lol i went through the same thing when i joined this board, i argued with some people, i thought it was crule to keep a snake in a rubbermaid, but after much consideration, i ended up using see through rubbermaids, but the best thing for snakes besides rubbermaids is custom cages(i am building 6 in a few weeks, lol) and vision style cages, there is a place near my house that makes them(reptic plastics)

but honestly, ball pythons do better in smaller cages, and honestly untill you can get a vision style cage, or build your own, keep it in a see through rubbermaid.

my ball python always had problems shedding in a tank, in a rubbermaid she does so much better..

[Asian Jon]

Originally posted by End Times
What the dimensions of a 30 long?

Oh, and whats HTH? (sorry forum thing is still kind of new)

HTH = Hope This Helps :).

[End Times]

Ahhh. Got ya, HTH, should of figured that out on my own...

As for clear rubbermaids, well, they're not totally clear, doesn't that sort of "wreck your viewing pleasure"?

[peterm15]

ya if your wanting to view the snake a custome may be the best choice.. only the front as glass.. good for security and viewing

[Iceman]

end times, i am not sure everyone on this forum thinks this way, but alot of people pick proper housing for health reasons over a "pretty tank" set up..

i'll say like the great jeff favelle once told me "aquariums are for fish"

lol

but if you can do it your self, or get someone to help you, custom is great, you can make a few 4'x2'x18" cages for the price of one big tank at a store..

[zero&stich]

As for clear rubbermaids, well, they're not totally clear, doesn't that sort of "wreck your viewing pleasure"?

Well seeing how they are nocturnal, you usually don't seem them out much anyway :). And opaque just means the enclosure isn't translucent, like a plate of glass. but rather looking through a sheet of plexi glass.

I had the same problem as most people, not being able to view them and such. But in reality, I can see them well enough and it is all about what is best for the animal's needs, not the person staring at them all day. :)

My suggestion to you, would be if you have your heart set on an aquarium, then try it out and see it fits your animals needs. I would go for the 65g. I know of a couple people where the rubber enclosure did not work and just found that glass enclosures worked for other species of snakes. In a BP's case you will have to really be on top of humidity and kinda working double time to make them feel secure.

Best of luck, whichever you choose. I know I had to try out the glass enclosure for myself before making a final decesion.

[Jeff Hathaway]

Rubbermaids do have many advantages, but you can do just fine with a tank. 90 gallon is more than you need; the footprint is fine but it is quite tall so harder to maintain. A 65 gallon would be easier and cheaper. The 48"x18" footprint will give you lots of space for a hide at each end for warm and cool, and a water dish in the middle. I use rubbermaids as hides in mine (a 48"x18" tank that is custom made to be only 12" high) with dampened mulch in one so that it is a warm and humid hide. Since it stays in the rubbermaid most of the time, in a sense, I'm keeping it in a rubbermaid within a tank:-)

Covering the top partially will allow for easier humidity maintenance.

As already mentioned, they'll hide a lot, and you won't see them much of the time. Most snakes are like that, and the exceptions are often not very good pets.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[End Times]

Thanks everyone, I think I've decided what I'll do. After perusing some more of this great site, I located a thread that gave a link to this awesome business out of Montreal that does custom tanks. They look great, and are fair priced IMO. Can't remember what the business was called, but here's the link!

http://balls-o-philiak.tripod.com/repticplastics/index.html

[Iceman]

lol, they are 5 minutes from my house..
it's reptic plastics

[Spirit]

As to not get into a whole glass vs rubbermaid thing, I won't comment on the plastic...

Glass viv. To put it simply.
Pro's:
* Looks nice.
Cons:
* MUCH more difficult to get temps and humidity right, let alone maintain.
* Much harder to clean.

My ball is out cruising close to 18 hours a day. He seems to be rather curious about his surroundings, fearless (nothing seems to stress him out) and the least agressive snake I've known. He's only 5 months old, and in a 30 gallon glass aquarium (36Lx18Wx12H). He eats like a champ and is seemingly a very healthy, well adjusted snake. He has lots of hides but doesn't always chose to use them, and when he does, his head is ALWAYS sticking out.

I say it has a LOT to do with the snake you're going to house. Balls in general get stressed out VERY easily, so if you were to throw one into a large glass viv, husbandry is likely going to be the least of your problems.

Having said that, the floor space is more important than the height, but my ball in particular loves to climb and is always out exploring, climbing (and mostly falling lol), so as an adult, I might concider it... but no sooner.

[lostwithin]

Hi, I read through this post and had just a few comments. One I think balls are a good choice my first snake was a ball about 8 years ago and I still have him.

Now as for the large enclosure there are several things to consider. First off Glass is a bad choice for ball pythons they are shy animals so the more you can see them the more stressed they are. So even with heat/humidity problems aside that’s the main reason it seems to be not the best choice. With all that said my male who was around 3 when I got him and I have had him for 8 years has always lived in a 4x1.5x1.5 Glass aquarium. Only last week did I finally move him into something better suited not for his health but simply because its a waste of a beautiful terrarium. 99% of his time was spent in his hide. That is just there nature.

From what I have read in your posts I would suggest you consider an IJ Carpet Python rather then a ball python. Although balls are amazing animals, they make HORRIBLE display animals. They are one of my favorites but no matter what you house him/her in you will never see it because they love to hide. A few months ago I picked up my first carpet. And he is amazing. He is always out in sight and most of the time perched in clear site. They also remain a manageable size and can come in some stunning colors. But the main advantage is they make great display animals so you can see them without taking them out unlike ball pythons. If you have your heart set on ball pythons then I would suggest you go with a plastic container even if you go with glass to avoid stress you will have to provide several hides and will never see your ball any way. But if not look into an IJ carpet I think in the end you will be much more pleased with the purchase.

No matter what species you chose if you use glass provide plenty of hiding areas so the snake can retreat if it feels the need too.

Either way, good luck.
Devon

[Spirit]

Great post, Devon. I don't know WHY my ball is so active, but he's a freakishly agressive eater and seemingly healthy so I don't worry about it. For me, the glass viv works (for now anyway).

I'm curious though Devon... if after such a long time of housing in glass, what exactly was it that made you switch to rubbermaid (I mean was it just the waste of a viv)? I assume the carpet python is in his old home?

As for the original topic of this thread... And as someone who HATES tupperware... I fully suggest it over glass. For all the reasons mentioned in this thread.

[lostwithin]

In the end it was the fact that it was a complete waste of a nice terrarium, and I was in need of a large enclosure for a wood turtle. So while re-arranging my herp room if finally took him out of there into an equally nice sized Rubbermaid. Which after only a short time I am much much happier with. My ball goes through an active spell every once and a while. But I find the climbing area he did have only worried me because they are horrible climbers and fell often.

Devon

[Spirit]

Horrible climbers is an understatement. Mine falls CONSTANTLY. Like every 15 minutes. Usually into his water bowl. Maybe he thinks he's diving? *SPLASH*

[joey]

I started out using a 20gallon deep tank and turned it on its side. Was great to see my bp and I thought it would work fine for her until she went through a really bad shed. Since then I've opted for the Rubbermaids and I think they are the best for any ball python.

[lostwithin]

Mine also often landed in the water although chances are he fell everywhere the water just makes the loudest noise so I notice it. I was always worried he would hurt himself though because he not a small snake, it wasn’t a big drop but they are all ribs, and I'm amazed he never cracked one.

Devon

[End Times]

Alright all, after all your arm twisting I went out and bought two "rubbermaid" containers made by a company called Sterlite. They are 23" long, 16.5" wide, and 6 inches high. I read somewhere in another post that many people use this size successfully for adults. God, they seem so small though... Maybe I"ll start with these and then buy a custom made like I said If these don't work out...

One question regarding rubbermaid housing though, if you don't have them setup on a rack system, where the shelf above acts as the top for the containers below, how do you secure the lids that come with the tupperware containers to keep the snakes from escaping? Surely there is a more convenient, and attractive, way than putting something heavy on top? I was thinking of maybe drilling holes through the "lip" of the container and lid and then fastening them some how... Or maybe rigging up some kind of velcro straps... What does everyone else do?

[Spirit]

Nylon utility straps. 6' cost like $0.50. :)

[HumphreyBoagart]

I'm not trying to start any $#!t here, but Spirit, I seem to remember not to long ago (a week), you thanking Mr. Favelle for showing his video because your "aggressive" feeder that you've only had for what, 5 weeks now, finally ate for you!?! Correct me if I'm wrong. (Even though I know I'm not.)

Hump.

[Spirit]

No no! You're ABSOLUTELY right, it was the 18th of this month I posted that thread, and he's tagged (with EXTREME agression, and NO hesitation) 3 (small) rats since then. (the feeding schedule will change once he's on the proper size meals)

And just to clarify, he was NEVER a problem feeder. He refused food for just under 2 weeks, during the switchover. Didn't want to take the rat. I hear that's normal.

He was in a glass viv before and was just as an agressive feeder on mice, than he is on rats. Well he's more agressive with the rats now, but that's aside the point. I've been handling him since November, almost daily, and never had a problem feeding him mice. I brought him home in January.

Sorry, Hump... I would have clarified that, but I didn't think it was relevant to the thread.

Edited to add that during those two weeks, he was also going through a shed, and adjusting to a new home. Aside from that and the switch from mice to rats, I was also using aspen... 23% humidity. Fixed that right up.

[HumphreyBoagart]

Ah I see. no need to appologize. I just thought it was weird how you were telling End Times that it was an "aggressive" feeder and seemingly healthy, but in the other thread you where talking about it not eating on it's own and you had to "assist" feed it because you were worried about it's small size for it's age and you didn't want it to lose any more weight, because it didn't have it to lose. Just threw me off thats all.
Hump.

[Spirit]

Well... yes and no. He is very thin for his age (was on one mouse fuzzy every 7 days), but not only that but I mistakenly bought rat pinks instead of pups. Since I'm used to corns, I had no idea how to handle the feeding process, when switching.

And since you mentioned assist feed, I wanted to clarify exactly what it was that I did. I held his head with NO pressure (he's not at all head shy) and GENTLY touched the rat to his snout. I did NOT open his mouth, and if he wanted to turn his head away, I would let him. There was no forcing here, but I digress... After a few seconds, he would tag and constrict the rat on his own. It was getting him to do it without the head holding, that I was having a problem with.

I hated doing that, but since he was on such small meals as it was, and I bought too small of rats, I didn't feel comfortable waiting for him to take it on his own. That is the ONLY reason why I fed him in the manner I did. I did that twice (three, if you include the one time I was shown how to do it), and after some advice from Jeff, he took the rat very agressively (on his own). Didn't give me a hint of warning... Practically jumped at it and scared the crap out of me. lol

But getting back to the subject of this thread (and I know it's about size, not glass vs plastic), my only point is that glass can be a giant pain in the butt to get the husbandry right, ESPECIALLY if your snake is easily stressed (which mine evidentally is not), and 99% of the time, rubbermaid is better. Though glass CAN work, it's not always the best, and smaller is always better for a baby ball, as it offers more security.

90 gallons is just WAY too big (imho), no matter WHAT you use.

I think we all got just a touch off topic, and I know I tend to run off on my own path, but the bottom line, is that's the point I was trying to make.

Okay... That is all. Thanks Hump!

[lostwithin]

End Times I am using similar Sterlite containers (one size up which is over kill but I wanted them all to be the same size and my blood uses that space). They work great I have also drilled holes as you mentioned and fastened the lid in place it works fine.

As for the size of the container that would work great for an adult ball but if you purchase a young ball it may be to big (I know that’s hard to believe because they look so small) . the ball I house in mine is an old guy who has long passed the 4' mark. and he still spends 99% of the time in a 1' x1' hide lol. But young ball pythons often do best in small enclosures until they have grown then move them into larger ones. If you do use that size right from the start be sure to offer several hides for the snake to use. A hide should be just big enough for then snake to squeeze into and curl up so he’s pressed against the sides. That will limit the stress because the snake will simply live in one of the he’s inside the bigger cage. My personal preference has always been larger enclosures with several hides, but sometimes it is necessary to provide a small enclosure for picky or easily stressed animals.

Devon

[lostwithin]

Spirit, after reading your last post I have to say I am curious if you have had your ball python to a vet at all recently? With all other comments aside and absolutely no insult intended in any way. Your animal does not sound like the typical healthy ball python. I have never seen a ball python that would allow someone to hold it head and put food in its mouth if it allows that there is something wrong. Often people mistake active calm animals, as healthy and stress free, when it can be the complete opposite in my experience a active ball is active because something is wrong with its environment that it is trying to escape or correct by finding a new place to hide/live.

I will not bother commenting on that fact you said he is a strong feeder and you were having feeding problems (because that in its self contradicts itself but you did provide an explanation for it).

But you did mention that he is underweight. If he really is a strong feeder and still underweight there is something wrong. Even if you were feeding several items too small, he should still be a healthy weight unless you have been starving him, which would explain allot of the previous behavior. (Not hiding, moving around in search of food, laying in the open because its to weak to care, aggressive feeder because it starving in hunger) Now that is not in any way meant as an accusation just a possibility.

And now although I did think maybe something was wrong right from the beginning when you mentioned how different your ball. It is when you mentioned you could hold his head and assist feed with no problem that you erased all doubt, your snake is in rough shape, non of that is healthy or normal. There is something wrong with that poor snake and although I have my suspicions as to what it might be I suggest you go to a vet and find out.

I do apologize if any of that cam off as insulting it was only meant to be informative.


Devon

[Spirit]

Yep. Excellent health. A little small, but not dangerously underweight, is what I was told. I'm curious as to what your suspicions are though.

As for holding his head though, he didn't like it much and sometimes he would fight and pull back to let go... he's not weak by any means, if that's what you're thinking. He's just extremely well handled. He's hiding right now, btw, and his weight is coming on nicely. He's small because he was slightly underfed (1 MOUSE FUZZY a week is NOT sufficiant for a 5 month old ball)... and I'm sure that's one of the reasons why he cruises so much... looking for more food. He started doing this after he realized rats were that good. Man, he LOVES those rats... I never saw him eat mice like that!

I have no concerns whatsoever about his health, but I really do appreciate what you said in that last post. It's nice to see someone show concern, rather than critisicism (so much of that lately), though if we care to continue this, it should be taken to pm, or to another thread, as this isn't my thread.

PS. I mentioned how I had been handling him since November... The reason I waited so long to take him home was because I had the same concerns as you have. Mind you if you can tell me something the expert couldn't, that would be REALLY nice. You're right about this not being normal, but TO ME, he appears to be a healthy snake... not OVERLY active (moves slow, stops, etc), and he's an excellent tongue flicker. lol

[lostwithin]

Spirit, my original suspicions were nothing special, Malnutrition possible dehydration (because they normally go hand in hand), and they can be caused by either sever underfeeding over a long period of time or internal parasites. You seem to be backtracking on all your previous statements. I will be sending you a pm because you are right no need to side track this post any more and we can discuss it more that way, I’m glad you didn’t take it as an insult, I really only mean to be helpful but often people take offence easily in the forum and a lot of the time they are right too with all the bashing and flame wars that go on in here.
Sorry for the slight sidetracks End Times.

Devon

[Spirit]

Thanks Devon!

He was mildly dehydrated, and I never ignored the idea of malnutrition, which is why I IMMEDIATELY switched to rats (for now, because they're smalll, 2 per week... 1 on sundays, 1 midweek). Already he looks worlds better.

I have a picture I took this morning to show you (and one I took the day I brought him home, for comparison), but I'll do it via pm.

Thanks again, and I apologise for taking over this thread.

[HumphreyBoagart]

Spirit,
I had the same concerns and tried to express them about a month ago when you first posted about it, but we all know where that got us. LOL! I told you that a ball that is constantly trying to get out, isn't stress free, in fact he's the opposite, he's stressed and want's the frig outta there. I am not trying to be insulting either, or start a flame war by any means, but you should start listening to people that have had ball pythons for longer than 5 weeks if you know what I'm saying. How do you know he is healthy if you've never had him to a vet and had a fecal done? Because the guy who SOLD him to you said so? Please don't take offence to this as I'm truely not trying to be an @$$#ole, I am just trying to help you and tell it like it is, as nicely as I can. I know it is hard to listen to someone telling you that there is something wrong with your ball when they've never seen it, but remember that they've had balls alot longer than 5 weeks like yourself. You should listen to people that are trying to help you instead of just backtracking and making up excuses or getting mad or whatever. (once again, I know this sounds mean, but I am truely trying to help you.)
I also have been reading every post you've written since you've gotten the ball, and I have bitten my tongue time and time again, because I honestly don't want to offend you or have it turn into a flame war, but I really truely think that you shouldn't give so much advice to everybody about how to take care of their ball pythons when you only have had it for 5 weeks now. Alot of the info you are giving is correct, but it's regurgitated info you've read or been told by someone on here (and you disaggreed for most of it but now you're recommending it!?!) It's fine to pass on the basic info or whatever, but you make it sound like it's from your own experience. I know you're going to take all this the wrong way, but I am not trying to be insulting and hurtful at all. Please don't see it that way and really think about what I'm writing. I am not trying to say that I know everything there is to know by anymeans, and I don't, but I hate to see someone that is having problems with their animal that they've only had for 5 weeks, giving advice to newbies or whoever that will end up having the same problems. Don't get me wrong, I think everyone should help everyone out, but do it from your own experience, once you have some. I really hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I know it is pretty much inevitable, but please don't be offended, upset, mad, sad, or anything like that, because that wasn't the reason for this post at all. Sorry to blab on. Don't be upset or offended please, just try and think about what I said.

Craig

[Spirit]

I did hump, but you were rude... back then.

He actually hasn't tried to escape since that first week I got him (that I've seen), and he's slowly starting to calm down now that he's getting the proper nutrition.

Just something I've noticed, but several of you people here seem to be extremely judgemental and quick to be rude about it, or critisise someone for doing something wrong, instead of teaching them why it's wrong, and showing them how to make it right.

"Better" is usally just someone's opinion, but most of yours (speaking in general, not to you hump) is not backed up with facts as to why it's bad in the first place.

Regarding this:
Originally posted by HumphreyBoagart
but I really truely think that you shouldn't give so much advice to everybody about how to take care of their ball pythons when you only have had it for 5 weeks now. Alot of the info you are giving is correct, but it's regurgitated info you've read or been told by someone on here (and you disaggreed for most of it but now you're recommending it!?!)

Im not sure what you're reffering to, but if it's rubbermaids, I hate them, and I always will. I do not wish to use them, and I am so far using glass with great success... but I also know the benefits of rubbermaid so if someone asks me which is better, my belief is that plastic is, for these reasons, but I prefer glass for these reasons.

I would never advise someone on something I don't know about, but like this thread... 90 gallons is too big for a snake hatchling. ANY snake hatchling. I know this, and I know why. If I can help teach someone why, I will.

I do appreciate what you just said though, but even more so I appreciate your tone. I will take into concideration what advise I pass on.

Now not that I need to justify anything here (and I won't), but I want to get one thing straight. I'm new to balls. I am not new to snakes.

[lostwithin]

Spirit, I sent you a pm, I would love to see before and after pictures. I'll wait for that pm, or if you have msn, You can reach me at devon_75@hotmail.com (that’s easier then pm's back and forth anyone is welcome to find me there)

Devon

[Spirit]

If you don't mind, I'll do msn. It's just so much easier.

Thanks so much.

[HumphreyBoagart]

I'm very glad you didn't take that the wrong way.
If you read the original post over that we were arguing in I think you'll probably find that I wasn't being rude, you were! LOL No I'm not trying to start an arguement over it again, I just want to clarify it. I was simply trying to help you, not offend or upset you and you said the comment "but nice job on the antagonistic downtalk" for no reason. That was when I got rude, and I didn't even really get that rude for how disrespectful you were being after I was trying to help you. It might have seemed rude and offended you, but it was not intended to at all, but that was how you were taking it. But bygones are bygones and I'm not too worried about it. I can tell by your response to my last post that you actually are listening to peoples advice and thinking about it, instead of thinking they are criticising you or trying to offend you. I think if that old post was now, you wouldn't have even said it, because you would have realized I was just trying to help you. Don't worry I get like that too. You were taking it as a personal attack, when in fact it wasn't an attack at all. I do the same thing, everyone does, it's human nature. But I can see we are all learning from our mistakes. And that's a good thing. : )
As far as this thread you're absolutely right, (and I told you that)it is way to big for a ball. I also said that it is good for everyone to help everyone with the basics, and I consider that the basics, so good job!
I know your new to balls not snakes, you got your first "practice" (your word, not mine) cornsnake to get you ready for balls, two months before you got your ball, and I think that you expected it to be like your cornsnake, and were very surprised when thye are nothing like them. Again, this isn't supposed to be offensive or anything like that either, and I know it sounds that way, but it's not supposed to be an attack whatsoever.
It's nice that we can talk about this without both of us ending up mad or sad or whatever. We're learning. : )
Hump.

[Spirit]

Well then I'm going to repeat exactly what I said in that thread.

"SHUUUUUUUSH!" lol

Get back on topic, people!

And Devon: Thanks for all your help. My mind is much more at ease now, from all these people telling me my snake is sick. /vent ;)

[HumphreyBoagart]

Uhh...maybe I should cut and paste it, cuz that's not at all what you said! LOL
Back on topic. Yes it's too big for a ball python.