freehandling hots?

[davo]

I have only very recently joined this forum but have had a strong interest in reptiles in general and venomous snakes in particular for nearly 30 years. The general opinion of most forum members regarding free handling of hots seems to be DON'T they are not pets and you are an idiot if you do it.
I can only comment on those I have had experience with, mainly autralian elapids.I have raised several Australian tiger snakes (notechis scutatus) form birth to well into adulthood. I made a point of free handling these at least every couple of days including just prior to and just after feeding. I can honestly say these snakes never made any attempt to strike at me and never became aggressive or aggitated and seemed to be able to distinquish between what was food and what was me.
I sometimes need to relocate adult snakes from the house yard and do NOT freehandle these but have done so with wild caught sub-adult common copperheads (another elapid australaps superbus)without any problem.These have been hooked first to gauge their mood.
I do not advocate freehandling in general and concede it may not be a good idea in most cases but I do not believe it is necessarily a stupid or foolhardy thing to do.
If you had a hot from birth and regularly handled it albeit with a hook and it was always calm, never showed any aggression nor attempted to strike at you, at what point would you trust it?

[Woodpusher]

If I ever did end up getting into the world of venomous snakes - I can honestly say that I would NEVER trust any captive snakes that have the venom and delivery to end my life.

[ChurleR]

Do you mean free-handling as in allowing the snake free roam up your arm, or free-handling as in just tailing without a hook?

I've never done either, and I don't plan on it. A hit to the chest or face from an agitated Elapid, and you'd be screwed unless you practiced self innoculating...

Most of the snakes I've worked with (I don't keep any at the moment, I will be getting a little <i>Sistrurus</i> this summer) are hemotoxic, and therefor I'll assume impossible to gain passive resistance to their venom... unless you want your injection sites rapidly rotting away.

Snakes have basal instincts, as much as you can teach them through constant handling it's all thrown out the window as soon as they feel the least bit threatened.

-Will

[BWSmith]

Short Answer: Why would you use a more dangerous method when it is just as easy to use proper equipment? If there is a safer way, why not use it? I think the question is not why WOULDN'T you freehandle, but rather why WOULD you?

Religious Snake Handling is about the only "semi-valid" reason I know of. And while I certainly do not agree with the practice, I respect the right of religious freedom. If they want to jiggle snakes in church, more power to them.

you had a hot from birth and regularly handled it albeit with a hook and it was always calm, never showed any aggression nor attempted to strike at you, at what point would you trust it?
Never. Snakes are pure instinct, therefore "trusting" them holds no merit.

[atheris]

If youre playing 30 years with "dangerous" snakes you should already know whats ok and whats not and what is true and what is bullshit.

I say this topic is troll or writer is an big idiot !

[davo]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BWSmith
[Religious Snake Handling is about the only "semi-valid" reason I know of. And while I certainly do not agree with the practice, I respect the right of religious freedom. If they want to jiggle snakes in church, more power to them.


So if I hum a hymn or say a prayer it's OK!

[davo]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BWSmith
[Religious Snake Handling is about the only "semi-valid" reason I know of. And while I certainly do not agree with the practice, I respect the right of religious freedom. If they want to jiggle snakes in church, more power to them.


So if I hum a hymn or say a prayer it's OK!


OOPS! Didn't mean to post that again, won't delete.

[ChurleR]

He didn't say it was "Ok", just that he agrees with freedom of religion.

[Gregg M]

To me, freehandling is just a stupid macho act that does not do a snake or handler any good and it can only do harm...... I just do not see the "pros" to freehandling..... I have heard just about every excuse but have yet to hear one that is valid..... I want to know how anyone can trust an animal that runs just about purely on instinct, with your life???? It just does not add up..... I guess this is natural selection at work....LOL

[ReptiZone]

I do not own Venomous snakes Yet I will give my self a few years of study and try and find a mentor to walk me threw 2 monts of hands on training.

But my oppinion is that free handeling is an unnecessary risk that puts your self any one that may be in the same room as your self and is just an irresponsible trainig method.

but that might just be me.

The ReptiZone
Marc Doiron

[cobraman]

Short Answer: Why would you use a more dangerous method when it is just as easy to use proper equipment? If there is a safer way, why not use it? I think the question is not why WOULDN'T you freehandle, but rather why WOULD you?

I realize that coming from me, of all people, this will sound ironic, but I fully agree with Brian. If you have a safer method, that is not harmfull to the animal, why would you want to free handle? If you have a valid reason, well just be carefull, otherwise just don't.

[cobraman]

To me, freehandling is just a stupid macho act

and you are an idiot if you do it


On the other hand, I would not go this far. People may do stupid things (as perceived by others anyway), but I will never pretend to be able to judge someone as STUPID or an IDIOT because they do something that appears stupid to me. I have yet to hear anyone refer to Mr. Haast as stupid or an idiot, and nobody has free handled more than him, and nobody has been bitten more than him.

I will never make an excuse for the amount of free handling I have done. Why? Because I don't have to. I don't owe anyone an explanation for what I do, and nor do you owe me an explaination for what you do or would not do. However I will be the first one (well, maybe a tie with BW Smith) to say that it is dangerous and should not be done. And with a very few exceptions, I will not be around anyone that free handles, or handles like I do.

Last weekend, I was invited to watch Dave Weathers (does shows on MTV's "Wild Boys") perform his "kiss of death" show with a 13 foot King Cobra. Dave is a friend of mine, and seems to be a good handler, however I would not care to see this show again. I felt that it was far too dangerous at times, and the risk can outweigh the entertainment. I DO NOT respect a show off when it comes to venomous snakes (and I'm not calling Dave a show-off). I handle the way I handle regardless of if I am alone, or there are thirty people around with cameras.

I will do what I do, and you do what you do, but we can still rise above the self rightousness and spirit of criticizm and be friends.
Blessings,
Ray

[stevoclon]

You are not an idiot,

[stevoclon]

If you had a hot from birth and regularly handled it albeit with a hook and it was always calm, never showed any aggression nor attempted to strike at you, at what point would you trust it?

Tricky question their Steve, but I see what you are saying and would love to hear more:)

[Brent Strande]

If you had a hot from birth and regularly handled it albeit with a hook and it was always calm, never showed any aggression nor attempted to strike at you, at what point would you trust it?

I would trust it at the point that it were no longer venemous and posing a threat to my life.

The strangest things have happened. Like being bit by a normal temperament corn or bci. You know, the "family pet" that everyone trusted. Not much harm then, but imagine if that same animal were able to deliver venom? I still agree that I haven't seen any valid reasons to need to freehandle.

[davo]

Originally posted by Gregg M
...... I just do not see the "pros" to freehandling..... I have heard just about every excuse but have yet to hear one that is valid..... I want to know how anyone can trust an animal that runs just about purely on instinct, with your life???? It just does not add up..... I guess this is natural selection at work....LOL
Excuses are not required and valid in who's eyes?... yours?
My reason for doing what I do is because I believe it is much more comfortable for both the snake and myself and I do agree it is natural selection at work.
I keep hearing this bit about pure instinct. The instict to bite relates to the getting of food and defense, not some inbuilt need to bite humans for no reason. If the snake is familiar with the situation it has no instinct to bite.
Originally posted by ChurleR
He didn't say it was "Ok", just that he agrees with freedom of religion.
I am certainly not looking for anybody's OK or permission but to cite religous freedom as semi valid reason and not mention personal freedom to choose seems odd.

[ChokeOnSmoke]

"The instict to bite relates to the getting of food and defense, not some inbuilt need to bite humans for no reason."

Although I've never seen through them, I would imagine a human would look like a predator or at the very least a threat through a snakes eyes.

[HumphreyBoagart]

This thread reminds me of the movie "Natural Born Killers", when the old indian revives the dying rattlesnake or whatever it was and then the snake turns around and kills him. And the snake turns and says "Look b!tc#, you knew I was a snake!"

[Gregg M]

Originally posted by davo
Excuses are not required and valid in who's eyes?... yours?
My reason for doing what I do is because I believe it is much more comfortable for both the snake and myself and I do agree it is natural selection at work.

Ding ding ding..... That is the #1 lame escuse why someone thinks it is a good idea to freehandle hots.....LOL..... That is the one I hear most out of any of them...... I will enlighten you alittle bit....... Using the proper tools to handle your snakes is not uncomfortable for your poor little snakes...... Besides, how often are your snakes being handled???? The last time one of my snakes were out of their cages wa about 3 weeks ago...... Even if it was alittle uncomfortable for the snake, how often and how long would it have to go through the the handling???? And as a matter of fact, those excuses are not valid in my eyes or the rest of the responsible hot community that would really like our hobby to stay leagal and not suffer too many more bans.....

Your action affect us all especially when (not if) you get bitten because of unsafe handling methods...... In the mean time you make the responsible keepers look like a bunch of adrenilin junkie yahoos when that is not the case....... I swear they should really do a phsycological test on people before permitting them keep hots.....

Oh and it does not take much to turn a snake from being calm, to going out of its way to sink it fangs into you...... All it takes is a difference in the pressure being exerted on the snake while handling or a weird, quick movement to trigger a defensive or even a feeding strike.....

What I ment by it being natural selection is that our gene pool is being cleaned out because of stupid acts like playing with venomous snakes, which is a good thing, but unfortunatly our hobby is being taken from us as a result....

Another thing, you brought this "fire" on your self by starting this thread...... Dont get mad if it burns you.....

[ChurleR]

Eh, when people die or take a hit it looks bad on venomous keepers in general, and the people who have a higher chance of dying or lifetime mangling are freehandlers. Most of the people on this board would prefer to keep their reputation intact, as well as keep their collections.

[davo]

Originally posted by Gregg M
Ding ding ding..... That is the #1 lame escuse why someone thinks it is a good idea to freehandle hots.....LOL..... That is the one I hear most out of any of them...... I will enlighten you alittle bit......

I do not consider you are qualified to enlighten me

Besides, how often are your snakes being handled???? The last time one of my snakes were out of their cages wa about 3 weeks ago......

As I said in my original thread I make every effort to handle my snake (I only raise and keep one at a time) at least every couple of days. Maybe you should interact with your animals a bit more often.

Even if it was alittle uncomfortable for the snake, how often and how long would it have to go through the the handling???? And as a matter of fact, those excuses are not valid in my eyes or the rest of the responsible hot community that would really like our hobby to stay leagal and not suffer too many more bans.....

That self-rightous comment reminds me of similar murmerings coming from non-venomous and directed at all hot keepers

Your action affect us all especially when (not if) you get bitten because of unsafe handling methods......

I began my present handling practices 27 years ago. Not a strike as yet.

....... I swear they should really do a phsycological test on people before permitting them keep hots.....

Maybe they should, but who is THEY?. I think you might find THEY would say anybody that wants a venomous snake is mentally suspect to begin with.

What I ment by it being natural selection is that our gene pool is being cleaned out because of stupid acts like playing with venomous snakes, which is a good thing, but unfortunatly our hobby is being taken from us as a result....

I know what you meant. How about you do a survey and let me know how many of those tagged were freehandling and how many were using tools and feeling a little too smug or careless while doing it.

Another thing, you brought this "fire" on your self by starting this thread...... Dont get mad if it burns you.....

I won't get mad, but I will respond to any critiscism however I can,but it is interesting to see the generally self-rightous "mine is the only way" attitude.
I posted this thread to summarise how I handle now and have handled for years, and to note my observation of the attitude mentioned above.

[Gregg M]

So what exactly mekes me unqualified to enlighten you???? LOL..... It realy makes no difference what you feel I am qualified for...... I know what my credentials are and so do alot of people here....

You are exactly what this hobby does not need..... How can you talk about careless or smug when you freehandle???? LOL Thats alittle contradictory isnt it???? It is not only the bites that help to rip our hobby down but it is the careless acts of people like you that give the serious, responsable keepers a bad image...... The general public thinks we are all that stupid and careless when the see people doing stupid things with deadly animals..... Sure some of my thoughts may sound alittle selfish but the fact is these are the thoughts of the majority and these thoughts are with good reason...... Also to even think that more people are bitten during safe handling with the proper tool than people that freehandle is just rediculous and plain stupid...... I interact with my animals as much as is needed but I do not feel the need to put life, limb, or hobby at risk so I can pick one up with my hands......

I normaly make it a point not to say "I told you so" if someone gets bitten because of their own stupidity, but for you I will make that acception when the day comes.... And that, it will.... Unfortunatly when it happens to you, it will be another nail in the coffin for venomous herpeticulture.....

Look at you...... Only 6 posts on this forum and you already put a bad taste in alot of mouths with your careless and smug acts..... Not a good way to start out here....

[Brent Strande]

I won't get mad, but I will respond to any critiscism however I can,but it is interesting to see the generally self-rightous "mine is the only way" attitude.

Couldn't agree more (SARCASM) I keep guns and hate how all these people tell me not to aim the gun at people. I trust the gun. I've done it all my life and so far I haven't shot anyone. That means that it's safe to aim my gun at people. (STILL SARCASTIC...)

Come on man! If you aren't merely trolling, then think about what you're saying! Sure, you may have not been bitten yet, but by practicing something that you should have enough sense to know is dangerous, you have to be willing to accept that you're taking a much greater risk of being bitten!

This is a very selfish and arrogant thing to do. Not only are you risking your own well-being, but you're also risking the entire hobby. Sure, the biggest blow will be directed at the hot community, but every other ignorant out there will also want more bans and restrictions on any herp out there, even an innocent cornsnake!

PLEASE, open up your eyes and look at what risks you're putting the entire herp community at. And for what? To say that you were able to handle a hot? Trust me, it doesn't impress as many people as you may think. Even if it's only to impress yourself, try impressing yourself with how responsible you can be keeping such magnificent creatures!

[SCReptiles]

I feel your pain Davo. Most of these people here are way too uptight. Sure its dangerous to take them up, but you have as much right to do that as they have to keep them. I have never understood what makes them think they have to right to tell others they can not handle snakes if they choose. They love to fall back on the old generic “it effects my hobby when you do it.” That is crap, anyway to package it. We are putting snake keeping as a whole in jeopardy when we keep venomous species. And don’t try to say we are not!!! We are. The new laws coming into effect do not call for venomous bans, they call for dangerous animal bans. That is effecting the people who keep boas and pythons. If you think you have the right to tell someone they can’t handle hots, boa keepers have that exact same right to tell you that you can not keep hots, regardless of how you handle them. Live and let live.

[ChurleR]

Eh, I won't tell anyone how to live... or not live. It just seems in some cases caution should be observed, handling venomous animals being one of them. It is true that fatalities are rare, even when someone takes a hit if they have proper medical care immediately...

However, if you're here advocating free-handling to people who are for the most part against it, you must expect alot of negative feedback. Enjoy your snakes and your freehandling, I just hope you have well stated post mortem plans for who will take care of them after you. It would be pretty crappy if your collection died because of you.

[cobraman]

However, if you're here advocating free-handling to people who are for the most part against it, you must expect alot of negative feedback

I am not going to be involved in a pissing contest with anyone about this topic. I said what I had to say about it, but am getting a lot of e-mails (11 of the 13 were complimentry) so I will address the issues of the 2 that were not as complimentry (sic). First let me address the above quote: I will NEVER advocate free handling of venomous, and I'm not sure anyone here is. Again, IT IS DANGEROUS, but not illegal, not imoral, not unethical, not cruel to the snake (at least not in my case). I personally do not free handle to impress anyone, nor do I feel that anyone who free handles is impressive. When I do handle a snake with my hands (and YES I do use the propper tools most of the time) I do it because it works best for me (and often the snake) for what I am doing at the moment. I do not expect anyone to be impressed, in fact I would think that you have a few parts on order if you were impressed (ask anyone that really knows me).

While I admit that my website has a few too many photos of me with venomous snakes in my hands, I want to point out that the photos would never have gone on the internet if it were not for an overwhelming request from people (I have yet to receive an e-mail or request to remove them). These people view it as entertaining, and they also get to see the down side of such a dangerous practice. I made it a point to post some of the gory photos of some of my snakebites so that people get both sides of this type of activity.

Do I believe that free handling will put an end to the reptile hobby??? Absolutely not! It may be a contributing factor, but FAR less of a contributing factor than the irresponsible collector whose neighbor calls animal control and 13 news stations because one of his collectables escaped and is now in her flower garden preparing to consume her 7 dogs, 12 cats, and 4 grandchildren. When people get bitten by a venomous snake, most readers or news viewers just react with "what a dumb-***". But when already ophiophobic people see that the guy down the block has lost his 18 foot python, an epidemical scare seems to take place (I know what I'm taking about...I was an animal control officer years ago). The ding dong that takes his pet boa out for a stroll on the public beach, or in the mall, or even just down the street does far more damage to the hobby than Ray Hunter getting bitten for the 43rd time. Even my once concerned family now just says "Again? By what this time?" Florida Fish and Wildlife officers (who are required to investigate all reported bites) just give me a 30 second phone call post bite. "Well, the way I see it is that you are still only a danger to yourself" was the quote from the FFWFC officer the last time I was bitten by one of my Egyptian Cobras.

Do professional race car drivers advocate speeding through the city streets? Not that I can tell, but some tv commercials selling cars and tires seem to --- Yet there has not been a prohibition on automobiles (dispite the fact that auto accidents claim more lives than any other activity). We can still have dogs, even though some 250 people a year die from dogs (only 8-10 people in the U.S. die of snakebite each year--statisticly speaking). What about hunting accidents? Is that activity on the verge of being banned because the press did a story about someone getting hurt or killed? The list can go on and on, but I'm sure we all get the idea. Snakebites, legitimate or illegitimate, will not be the final nail in the coffin to this hobby, but Billy Bob's loose python very well might be. The general public does not give a crap about how you handle snakes, and how many bites you've suffered, as long as they are not endangered by one of your lost reptiles that escaped from it's FISH TANK with the "LOCKING LID" (or whatever for that matter).

Don't rationalize to me what you do and don't do, would and would not do, and why... You don't owe me an explaination. And I will return the favor to you, because I don't owe you one. If you want to add more dangers to an already dangerous life, go and do so with my blessings (but unlike one writer in this thread, I wish you no harm).

Better go, My soap box is giving way under my excessive weight (Oh damn, now they will abolish eating good tasting food because of the death potential due to obesity or hyperlipidemia). Thanks for the 11 supportive e-mails.

Be Blessed in all you do!
Ray Hunter

[SnowSnake]

When I do handle a snake with my hands (and YES I do use the propper tools most of the time) I do it because it works best for me (and often the snake) for what I am doing at the moment.

Can you give me a few examples of situations where you feel freehandling works best for you and the snake?


I don't keep venomous snakes but this thread has caught my attention.
I agree with you when you say that people will react more when they think they're life is in danger. ('Billy Bob's loose python' example)


Take care and better safe than sorry! :)

Jean-Philippe

[cobraman]

Can you give me a few examples of situations where you feel freehandling works best for you and the snake?

I sure can. Because I do venom production, I have to restrain the snakes by the head to make them bite the venom collection vial. Anyone who has ever pinned a cobra knows that the cobras jerk rather hard while being pinned, and damage to the c-spine (as it were) is possible. When I catch them (cobras) I distract with one hand and make a swift but gentle head grab with the other, which causes no trama to the neck of the snake. Hope this helps you.

Ray

[ChurleR]

Oh, and Ray, none of my comments have been aimed at you. I know you self-innoculate, that you were taught under Haas himself AND that you know what it's like to take a hit... not pleasant. I'm talking to anyone who free-handles without any sort of precaution, and what COULD happen. IE. You die, state takes your collection, does what they like with em, news gets a hold of it and turns it into a horror story for a week.

[SnowSnake]

Originally posted by cobraman
I sure can. Because I do venom production, I have to restrain the snakes by the head to make them bite the venom collection vial. Anyone who has ever pinned a cobra knows that the cobras jerk rather hard while being pinned, and damage to the c-spine (as it were) is possible. When I catch them (cobras) I distract with one hand and make a swift but gentle head grab with the other, which causes no trama to the neck of the snake. Hope this helps you.

Ray


Thanks :)

[cobraman]

Oh, and Ray, none of my comments have been aimed at you. I know you self-innoculate, that you were taught under Haas himself AND that you know what it's like to take a hit... not pleasant. I'm talking to anyone who free-handles without any sort of precaution, and what COULD happen. IE. You die, state takes your collection, does what they like with em, news gets a hold of it and turns it into a horror story for a week.


You have very valid points. I would not even get in my car and drive down the block without taking precautions (seatbelt). I have always felt that EVERYONE who keeps hots should take all the precautions they can, and that includes having an emergency protocol plan, stocking antivenoms (if you can...I had to obtain a BB-IND permit to stock exotic antivenoms), propper tools (USE THEM!) , and so on. So your points are valid. Thanks.
Ray

[Mustangrde1]

Ive seen ray handle many species of venomous but honestly thinking the only ones ive seen him actually " free handle" are members of the elapid family NEVER A VIPER and normally he does use safety tools.

I have seen severa lvenom extraction form various persons and Ray's cobra " grab" for lack of better words is far less traumatising to the animal than pinning.

Freehandling for sport or showing off is dangerous. Then again so is being a golf or hockey spectator.

[SnowSnake]

Originally posted by Mustangrde1
Freehandling for sport or showing off is dangerous. Then again so is being a golf or hockey spectator.

True! MY grand-father got hit in the face by a hockey puck last year :(


Stupid question: Why never vipers?

[ChurleR]

Because Vipers generally cause you to lose things that are important, fingers and stuff, and if you took a hit from a <i>Bitis</i> or a <i>Daboia</i> you might even lose a whole hand.

Plus alot of vipers tend to have things that mess with your blood chemistry, <i>Echis</i> for example can cause you to start hemorrhaging uncontrollably, plus their antivenom tends to be monovalent per seperate species and hard to get a hold of.

With Elapids GENERALLY, I won't say always, you mainly have to worry about respiratory failure from what I know. I won't claim to be the Elapid master. I do know there are recorded cases of people surviving cobra and mamba bites without antivenom just because they were put on artificial respiration machines until the venom wore off and they could effectively breath on their own again.

[SnowSnake]

Originally posted by ChurleR
Because Vipers generally cause you to lose things that are important, fingers and stuff, and if you took a hit from a <i>Bitis</i> or a <i>Daboia</i> you might even lose a whole hand.

Plus alot of vipers tend to have things that mess with your blood chemistry, <i>Echis</i> for example can cause you to start hemorrhaging uncontrollably, plus their antivenom tends to be monovalent per seperate species and hard to get a hold of.

With Elapids GENERALLY, I won't say always, you mainly have to worry about respiratory failure from what I know. I won't claim to be the Elapid master. I do know there are recorded cases of people surviving cobra and mamba bites without antivenom just because they were put on artificial respiration machines until the venom wore off and they could effectively breath on their own again.

Interesting!
I think i'll watch from here :p

[ATBlover]

what is the more agressive, deadly or painful of the 2?...Gaboon or a waglers?

[Davey312]

I sure can. Because I do venom production, I have to restrain the snakes by the head to make them bite the venom collection vial. Anyone who has ever pinned a cobra knows that the cobras jerk rather hard while being pinned, and damage to the c-spine (as it were) is possible. When I catch them (cobras) I distract with one hand and make a swift but gentle head grab with the other, which causes no trama to the neck of the snake. Hope this helps you.

Ray


I was a bit curious about the head grab, is it more difficult with the cobra's hood? to be more specific is it very hard and rigid when you try and grab it or does it fold back easily? (dumb question and off topic i know.. but i was curious)
Thanks,
Davey

[cobraman]

Stupid question: Why never vipers?

What ChurleR said is true, but for me the answer is in the strike. A cobra strikes a little slower and in a more predictable mannor than most pit vipers. A rattlesnake strike is 9 feet per second, and a Gaboon and Puff Adder can strike 27 feet per second. The average human can move his hand 9 feet per second and avoid a strike IF (stress IF) your hand started retracting at the EXACT time the rattler started the strike. However a human can not move the hand at 27 feet per second, so if your hand is in striking range of the Gaboon (or Puff) you will be bitten.

[cobraman]

what is the more agressive, deadly or painful of the 2?...Gaboon or a waglers?

Aggressive = Waglers (but Gaboon is more unpredictable)

Deadly = Gaboon Viper (Waglers bites are relatively easy to treat.

Painful = Gaboon Viper (but only for a short time). The heamotoxins in the Gaboon Viper's venom causes accute DIC (Diseminated Introvascular Dissemination). In essence you bleed from every oraface of your body including internally. This is a very painful condition because blood is an irratant the causes pain internally. Not to mention the other effects of the venom such as severe edema and compartmental syndrome as well as the tissue distruction from the cytotoxins in the venom.


BTW, Snowsnake, to ME there are NO such things as stupid questions. If you don't know something, and you want to know, whats stupid about that??? To me it is stupid to NOT ask a question, and continue not knowing the answer, when all you have to do is ask. :)
Ray

[cobraman]

I was a bit curious about the head grab, is it more difficult with the cobra's hood? to be more specific is it very hard and rigid when you try and grab it or does it fold back easily? (dumb question and off topic i know.. but i was curious)

Again, NOT a stupid question. I would rather you ask than go try to find out on your own :)

I actually find it easier to grab when the snake is fully hooded. The ribs that form the hood do tend to retract back to their normal anatomical position as soon as you have the hold. Even if the cobra continued to form it's hood (which does sometimes happen) it is not a problem because of the flexability of the ribs, and the fact that you are actually grabbing where the c-spine meets the mandibular joint. If you grab just a little far back, the snake can (and will) rotate it's head enough to sink one fang into your finger.

BTW. My grabs are swift, calculated, yet gentle on the animal. I don't Snatch them roughly so as to damage the c-spine or head of the snake.

[cobraman]

I do know there are recorded cases of people surviving cobra and mamba bites without antivenom just because they were put on artificial respiration machines until the venom wore off and they could effectively breath on their own again.

True. This is especially true of Coral Snake bites where there is no Heamotoxins, Cardiotoxins, Myotoxins, and Cytotoxins.

[SnowSnake]

Ray: Do you have a vid of yourself catching a cobra to milk it?

[cobraman]

Ray: Do you have a vid of yourself catching a cobra to milk it?

I am not aware of any videos, but I can ask Scott and a few other frequent visitors and see if they have any. It is not something that I would even want for myself. I would never watch it :)

[psilocybe]

Originally posted by Mustangrde1
Ive seen ray handle many species of venomous but honestly thinking the only ones ive seen him actually " free handle" are members of the elapid family NEVER A VIPER and normally he does use safety tools.


Actually...there is a pic on this very website of Ray freehandling a rather large gaboon.


Just out of curiousity Ray, how do you think you would react to a gaboon bite? I don't know what venoms you innoculate with, besides D. polylepis (though I highly doubt Bitis venom is one of them), but I'm curious if there would be any crossreactivity between the neurotoxins in gaboon venom and the neurotoxins you innoculate with. I mean I'm positive you'd still be in a boatload of trouble, but I'm wondering how you'd fare as opposed to someone who didn't self innoculate. Of course, for your sake, I'd hope we never know the answer.

Obviously the cytotoxic and hemotoxic components are a different story.

[cobraman]

Just out of curiousity Ray, how do you think you would react to a gaboon bite? I don't know what venoms you innoculate with, besides D. polylepis (though I highly doubt Bitis venom is one of them), but I'm curious if there would be any crossreactivity between the neurotoxins in gaboon venom and the neurotoxins you innoculate with. I mean I'm positive you'd still be in a boatload of trouble, but I'm wondering how you'd fare as opposed to someone who didn't self innoculate. Of course, for your sake, I'd hope we never know the answer.

It would be a problem (even though I have the propper antivenom). I may get some cross-protection for the neuros, but there is no immunizing against DIC caused by heamotoxins. So it would still be a big problem.

I might point out that there are several photos floating around of me doing STUPID things that I would not do today. That Gaboon shot is not as bad as some of the others. The black mamba in hand comes to mind, as does the Malaysian Krait going though my fingers. And there are some that I would never even post on any site or forum. My sister-in-law (Dr. Hunter) used to tell me that she was convinced that I had a death wish:confused: Go figure. When I first started scuba diving for the fire dept., I had a thing for diving around sharks, but I grew out of that as well. Years ago I handled venomous far more carelessly than I would now, but I never took snake bites too seriously back then. Now having a couple fingers permanantly injured, and having been on life support, I view it a bit differently. I realize that it seems ironic (even hipicritical) coming from me, but the fact is I am against free handling in general, and am strongly opposed to the careless free handling for the sake of showing off. I still will continue to work the way that works best for me (and in most cases that involves the use of snake hooks etc).

Ray

[psilocybe]

Ray,

Thanks for the reply...just wanted to clarify that I wasn't trying to chastise you in any way with my post.

It'd be interesting to find out about any crossreactivity with the neuros, but as I said before, I sincerely hope you don't end up giving us the answer :)

Take care,

Abhishek

[BWSmith]

Sorry, I have been out of the country for a week. But getting back to the topic:

I certainly would never tell anyone that they CAN'T freehandle. That is their right, just as it is my right to keep venomous species. I can only state what "I", personally, feel is irresponsible and unnecessary. I can only do my very best to discourage the practice. And I will condemn it at every turn because I feel it is a danger to the keeper and the hobby. Not so much as the keeper being bitten, but rather the image and stereotype it portrays. I don't think that many freehandlers understand the burden such practices puts on educators. I spend a great deal of time debunking freehandling when I could be using that time for conservation talks. Granted, it is usually related to television personalities, not private keepers. But one member's name is mentioned quite a bit on the subject. I will not say which because I don't feel that he would like to be associated with the individuals that reference him. Plus, I have not remembered to mention it to him yet, so dropping it in an open an open forum would be in poor taste.

There are freehandlers that i consider to be good people and knowledgeable herpers. Ray Hunter and Chuck Hurd are among the few. They know that I have issues with their handling practices. But they are still knowledgeable and seem like genuinely good guys. I voice my concerns, but I respect their rights. And I think that they respect how passionate I am about safety with venomous, so we do not really butt heads much except on this issue. Although Ray does like to send me pictures of freehandling just to make me cringe :rolleyes:

Haast's/Ray's "Flash and Grab" technique still makes my stomach turn. But I hear many freehandlers refer to Haast. There is no doubt that he is a freehandler, legend, and pioneer. I could not hold any more respect for him. But he began immunizing in the 40's or 50's. So I can only imagine when he began working with venomous species (don't feel like googling). In the last 50 years, there have been MASSIVE advances in handling and husbandry, so I really see no excuse not to use safer methods. I will grant the fact that Ray trained under Bill. But for anyone who started working with hots in the last 20 years, I see no excuse not to use proper tools and techniques.

OK, I have to quit typing. Still recovering from 5 days on a boat and the table seems to be rocking. I hope that made some sense. **shrug** If not, tear it apart, I should not have even replied as tired as I am ;)

[ChurleR]

Well dang, glad you made it back BW, I sent you a pm in hopes of participating in the rescue this year. Maybe I'll finally cross paths with another GA herper. :D

[NewLineReptile]

I don't keep hot's but if i was to i would have to say it would be a Gaboon and if Gregg M was to tell me the do's and don'ts i would not second think it he knows his stuff. Along with all these others like

BWSmith
Mustangrd1
cobraman
and some others sorry if not mentioned :)

they all know there stuff and would be good people to take advice on hots. All i see is them all give good advice to peoples questions and a good idea would be to listen to them

Just my opinion
Brandon

[SCReptiles]

Thanks Brian. Since that other organization we belong to asked me to play down the whole free handling thing, I have not been talking much about it of posting any pics to raise your blood pressure. However, that is all about the change. I have been working on a paper on religious serpent handling for several months A pastor and I co-authored it and its just about ready to print. In it I make the claim venomous snakes can be picked up safely with proper technique rather then divine intervention. To substantiate my claims I took up all the southeastern venomous species. Soon you will get to see me free handling my 48” copperhead and my 68” diamondback. As well as a coral, cottonmouth, and timber rattler. I know you will be excited to see it. Ha ha ha ha ha

[BWSmith]

By Chuck Hurd:
I recently took a bite in the forearm from a 40” northern copper.
during
Religious serpent handling

Will that one be in there? ;)

[ChurleR]

I'll be interested to see it as well. Will the paper be available online? I seriously doubt I'll ever be able to trust myself technique wise or a snake instinct wise unless there was absolutely no other way. However, looking at Whit Gibbon's work there is an astounding amount of info on Cottonmouths that won't readily strike until either stepped on or handled roughly. Again, I won't agree with the freehandling practice, but it will be extremely interesting to read over.

[BWSmith]

OK, Cottons and Coppers just won't strike Whit. although I have a few cottons that would tear him up. Pre-K (PK's baby) will CHEW at the plexi door trying to get your finger. In hot herp circles, Whit is known to have "Agkistrodon Mojo", definately not the norm in my opinion.

[Gregg M]

I seriously doubt it would ever be "safe" to freehandle a venomous species...... Just the fact that they are venomous makes it unsafe...... Then again, even just keeping them is not 100% safe but your chances of getting bitten are much greater when you handle your captive venomous snakes without the proper tools...... In all my years of keeping venomous snakes, I have yet to take a hit..... If I have ever taken a stupid risk like freehandling, I would bet anything that I would not be able to say the same thing......

A side note on the gaboon cross reactivity.....
Gaboon neurotoxins are minimal at best..... Even if there was to be any cross reactivity it would not make much if any difference...... Any neurological problems that occure from a gaboon envenomation is usually the result of the more dangerous clinical effects.....

Here are some of the toxin in Gaboon venom.....

Procoagulants
Anticoagulants
Heamorrhagins
Cardiotoxins
cytotoxins
necrotoxins

Gaboon venom causes massive tissue destruction...... Gaboon venom contains a very strong cardiotoxin...... So the very limmited amounts of neurotoxins in the gaboons venom would be the least of your worries.....

A bite causes minor neurotoxic paralysis brought on by the other major clinical effects......
Coagulopathy and heamorrhages are very common causing internal bleeding which is one of the major clinical effects........ Cardiotoxicity is the #1 major clincal effect..... Shock secondary to fluid shifts due to local tissue damage will occure.......

So in short, Ray would be in just as much trouble as anyone if he took a bite from a gaboon......

I guess that pic of Ray handling the gaboon the way he was, was a calculated risk but it is still a risk I would never take....... A gaboon can easily get a bite in from that possision...... They are explosive strikers.....

[SCReptiles]

Will that one be in there?
I wish I had a photo of it, but sadly I don’t. there are photos of the aftermath. =) I can post those if you like. And for the record, that night I was depending on the ghost…we were letting them crawl freely anywhere they wanted to. pretty bad decision on my part and I paid a heck of a price.

I'll be interested to see it as well. Will the paper be available online?
Yes, it will be in line. I will publish it here, but I am concerned people with no discernible thought pattern will immediately turn it into a religious debate and get the thread locked or deleted. It will be several other places as well.

I seriously doubt I'll ever be able to trust myself technique wise or a snake instinct wise unless there was absolutely no other way.
Good, I would never want anyone to try just cause they saw me do it. there is tremendous risk involved.

However, looking at Whit Gibbon's work there is an astounding amount of info on Cottonmouths that won't readily strike until either stepped on or handled roughly.
Gunther (50” eastern cotton) and his daughter from 2003 (she-gunth) will both bite with very little provocation. My other two breeding females are more relaxed and only snap after intentional provocation. Silas Crawford, of the Old Straight Creek Holiness church as a 52” FL cotton he got from Mardi that will not bite regardless of what you do to her. there is a wide range of temperaments among cottons.

[psilocybe]

I'm not trying to fan any flames here, or cause any controversy, or anything like that...this post is not meant to insult or belittle anyone...to each his own, but...

I personally feel that religious serpent handling (of venomous snakes of course) makes about as much sense as religous Russian roulette with a revolver.

However, the fact that I am not religious in any way shape or form may play into that opinion :)

[cobraman]

I guess that pic of Ray handling the gaboon the way he was, was a calculated risk

Very well put, Greg. As I said, there a re a few pics floating around of me doing things that I would not do today.

I personally feel that religious serpent handling (of venomous snakes of course) makes about as much sense as religous Russian roulette with a revolver

Chuck and I discussed this practice. With all due respect, this is not something I would be involved in.

Here are some of the toxin in Gaboon venom.....Procoagulants
Anticoagulants
Heamorrhagins
Cardiotoxins
cytotoxins
necrotoxins

True, but all the above and more is in most Cobra's venomons, as well as other venomous snakes. I will stipulate that I would have a big problem with a large Gaboon Viper bite.

Haast's/Ray's "Flash and Grab" technique still makes my stomach turn.

I understand. It sometimes has that affect on me also.

Although Ray does like to send me pictures of freehandling just to make me cringe

ME???

[chas*e]

I have/owned quite a few Venomous snakes and have never needed to handle them..I never touched them unless they are tubed for medical inspection....There is NO REASON ...religious freedom....come on...swim with sharks while bleeding/sleep with bears/eat glass ..please.... this is 2005AD not 2005BC

[cobraman]

I have/owned quite a few Venomous snakes and have never needed to handle them

Glad to hear that....we can eliminate one way that you will meet your maker :)

this is 2005AD not 2005BC

Fortunately, with the change of times came freedom....maybe next will follow the absence of the spirit of judgement. I'm sure there are things that you do or have done that some of us would not do, but we don't want to air these out to the world, lest you be judged by some.

Peace,
Ray

[Mustangrde1]

this issue is actually a western culture issue as many know handling of venomous reptiles in other parts of the world is very commone especially in religious practices or events. Take India for example.

We seam to have become in the western culture anyway more worried about concerns of protecting everyone from themselves. Look no further for examples of this than on video games " rated M for mature" Or the finding they keep comming up with for types of foods.

If this were a board in India or Malasia this topic wouldnt really even be an issue. Interesting to see cultural differances isnt it. As for religion. How would anyone like to be told they cant practice thiers as they see fit. I have met some of these people and yet to find one that would be called crazy in fact most are extremely intelligant people who are doing nothing more than practicing thier religion.

[Gregg M]

Scott,
it is actually somewhat suprizing to see how much these religious handlers know about the reptiles they take up...... Most also have a high level of respect for these snakes..... Personally I do not think it is a good idea to pick up venomous snakes for any reason but at the same time I am all for religious freedom..... At one time I did think these religious snake handlers were a bunch of crazy, ignorant rednecks...... But my veiws have changed..... The only stupid ignorant rednecks are the ones that are involved in rattlesnake roundups......

[BWSmith]

I use to know a couple serpent handlers that actually used Echis carinatus! Just a random side note.

[psilocybe]

Being Indian by decent (though I've never lived there), I've seen plenty of demonstrations on the Indian method of snake handling. True, they are much more lax then we are here.

However, they don't have their government breathing down their necks and taking away their snakes everytime someone gets bitten. We do, so we should take into consideration other keepers priveliges when we engage in behavior that could possibly have negative consequences (like freehandling).

[psilocybe]

Originally posted by BWSmith
I use to know a couple serpent handlers that actually used Echis carinatus! Just a random side note.

What a bright idea!!!!!

[ChurleR]

Heh, if that little Echis bit you, you'd die a "Oh my goodness, I looked at the Ark of the Covenant when it was opened just like in Indianna Jones!" style death. Melting and stuff, that would be fun.

[cobraman]

However, they don't have their government breathing down their necks and taking away their snakes everytime someone gets bitten.

I sort of agree, but to my knowledge no state has banned reptiles because someone got bit. As I said before in this thread, I believe states will bann reptiles because of the far more numerous incidents of people losing their reptile (venomous and non-venomous), or people turning them lose, or showing up at malls and beaches with them (scaring the %$&@ out of people). I never see people focus on this problem, instead it is always presummed that it is going to be the snake bite victim ruining it for everyone. I agree that negative publicity in ANY hobby is bad, and a snakebite is negative, but far worse is the 15 foot python that got away and is eating everyone's cats, or the idiot at the mall with his 10 foot boa around his neck. Someone PLEASE show me a state that has prohibited reptiles because someone got bit. But there have been attempts to make laws because of the escapes and public appearences of reptiles (mostly pythons or large snakes). Why don't we focus on the REAL problem, instead of inventing new ones. I noticed that nobody commented on this point when I brought it up earlier in this same thread.

NOTE- This reply is NOT directed at psilocybe. I am just restating this point because everyone skated over it last time I brought it up.

Blessings all
Ray

[psilocybe]

Originally posted by cobraman
I sort of agree, but to my knowledge no state has banned reptiles because someone got bit. As I said before in this thread, I believe states will bann reptiles because of the far more numerous incidents of people losing their reptile (venomous and non-venomous), or people turning them lose, or showing up at malls and beaches with them (scaring the %$&@ out of people). I never see people focus on this problem, instead it is always presummed that it is going to be the snake bite victim ruining it for everyone. I agree that negative publicity in ANY hobby is bad, and a snakebite is negative, but far worse is the 15 foot python that got away and is eating everyone's cats, or the idiot at the mall with his 10 foot boa around his neck. Someone PLEASE show me a state that has prohibited reptiles because someone got bit. But there have been attempts to make laws because of the escapes and public appearences of reptiles (mostly pythons or large snakes). Why don't we focus on the REAL problem, instead of inventing new ones. I noticed that nobody commented on this point when I brought it up earlier in this same thread.

NOTE- This reply is NOT directed at psilocybe. I am just restating this point because everyone skated over it last time I brought it up.

Blessings all
Ray

Your right Ray, the way I worded my post was somewhat misleading...I don't believe a state has banned venomous as a direct result of a bite...however...

The rash of high profile bites in the last year (how many were there, 5, 6 7?) where the media latched on to the stories and sensationalized them as usual probably did not help. Considering several of the victims were keeping the snakes illegally as well (the B. alternatus victim in Ohio, the Lachesis keeper in Michigan), I'm sure many of those states residents would fully support and back a proposition to ban venomous (and possibly other "dangerous" reptiles)...who knows, it could be just a matter of time. I'm certainly not saying that every single accidental bite is a nail in our collective coffin, as accidents do happen and we are only human (at least most of us), but why load the gun for PETA and legislators to shoot us with? Bites might not be their first ammo of preference, but I'm sure they can do something with it.

To my knowledge, in neither of those cases was freehandling invovled, but my point is since freehandling obviously greatly increases the chances of being bitten, and we know how the general public feels about this hobby already...I think a recent survey I saw said that only about 3% of American homes have some time of captive reptile...that means we've got a potential 97% of Americans who might want to see our hobby end :(

Take care,

Abhishek Prasad

[psilocybe]

Oh, and I agree with you about escapes and inappropriate displays invovling large reptiles (walking in the mall with a burm around your shoulders) also having a severely negative impact on herpeteculture in general.

[cobraman]

I will agree that bites (regardless of the circumstances) can be a contributing factor. But I will always stand by my initial view that escapes, reptiles in public, illegal collecting and irresponcible keeping will have a much larger impact on the hobby than bites. When one is bitten, there may be media publicity, BUT there is not a sence of epidemical scare such as there is when Billy-Bob can't find his python and subsequently cats and dogs are reported missing in the area. I am stating this as a former animal control officer.

Again, I am not defending free handling (everyone knows my stance on this topic, and if they forgot...I am opposed to it) but I would give credit where credit is due. We can say that free handling is un-necessary, careless, irresponcible, and stupid (and in some cases all the above may be accurate), but I don't believe that we can predict that they will be the fall of the hobby (pehaps a contributing factor). Focusing on the other issues I brought up would be far more benificial.

Just my 2 cents again.

Peace
Ray

[chas*e]

I never said that handling venomous reptiles for religious purposes is wrong ...I just think it is stupid and proves nothing....I say "GO for it,...live(or Die) anyway you want...I defend your right to practice religion or lack of religion any way you choose...and also my right to comment on it.

[cobraman]

I agree

[cobraman]

I better clearify...I agree about your right to comment, not that anything is stupid, or proves nothing. I happen not to be a proponant of "religious free handling", but ....whatever

[chas*e]

Why do we have to be so politically correct to the ones who are never politically correct with us...just a thought...lol

[cobraman]

who knows?

[bush_master87]

http://superbeastreptiles.com/phpBB2/album_page.php?pic_id=29
Check this out. I used to free handle alot but I dont anymore.

[lepidus741]

With all the hype about venomous owners getting tagged and then the lawmakers wanting to use this to ban keeping of hots, why would anyone want to free handle hots? I have kept hots for years and have never free handled my snakes, that is what hooks and tongs are for. You can not know what mood a snake is in , when it will feel threatend, that statement just makes no sense. You have the right to do what you want, but if you get tagged then it gives hot keepers as a whole a black eye, and that effects us all. Just my take on the subject.:(

[bush_master87]

I agree. Even if you are the smartest most well versed person in the community, if you get bitten the outside world may look at it as some idiot that is too stupid to know what hes doing. Freehandling can be done...........but not without alot of risks. No matter how many times youve done it or how many snakes you have done it with, that risk is still there. Ive heard of "legends" getting bitten while cleaning cages, yet ive heard of morons freehandling and doing crazy things without a scratch. Part of it is how good you "know" your snake. But thats just a small part. That just builds the confidence. There have been times that I should have been biten. I didnt walk away unharmed because I knew what I was doing. I walked away because the snake wasnt as accurate as it could be,didnt go at me with its full potential,or just didnt want to strike. Now lets say I try to handle the same snake carelessly tomorrow and it isnt in a good mood(how does a snake look when it is happy or sad etc.?....Noone knows, so you cant tell what to expect. You cant expect anything, that would be your first mistake)But if the snake wasnt in a good mood,even if I had handled it a million times, its going to get me if it wants to. I look at it like russian roulette. You may know the gun that you are using like the back of your hand, but you cant predict any thing.

[lepidus741]

I agree 100%, when you have an animal that can end your life , why would anyone take the risk? I just dont understand the need to free hand.

[bush_master87]

I guess I am on both sides. I dont free handle any more, but I have freehandled alot in the past. When I used to freehandle, I knew well that the snake could kill me. I even said it out loud sometimes. But when the snake is in my hands, I just pushed it into the back of my head. I knew it could kill me......but not this time. Does that make sense? The first time you free handle you are very cautious and then you get big headed. Lets say you start out with a copperhead. Then after a while its a canebrake,then a cobra. Well youve handled cobras now so that copperhead and canebrake will seem likes childs play...right? You arent as carefull with it then. Next thing you know, you get surprized. The snake strikes, maybe it gets you, maybe it doesnt. Theres not saying "thats not fair, I want a do over." after youve been bitten, youve been bitten. No ifs ands or buts. You made a mistake now you life is in danger. But if you looked back you can think of ways that it could have been prevented. Sometimes,as in my case, you will have to have the crap scared out of you. My friends case also. I have never been bitten but I nearly, I mean I came very very close to getting bitten by a small canebrake and it changed my mind. Now I dont freehandle. The snake could have easily bitten me. It would have been my fault all the way. Now my friend that I mentioned got put in his place and it took two times. We were in south mississippi with a freshly caught cottonmouth. He was pinning its head down in the hotel parking lot. I was busy with something else when I hear "oh **** jeremy...that damn snake bit me. I looked over and his thumb was bleeding. Luckily it was a dry bite. He said that he would never pin a snakes head down again(keep in mind that he has pinned many snakes heads down and knew what he was doing.) Then not 2 days later, he hooking a canebrake. He misjudged its strike distance, and all of a sudden I get a call. "Jeremy, he just got bit by that huge canebrake he caught next week."...."Is he ok."..."I dont know." Luckily that was a dry bite also(can you say lucky!!!He got bit twice in one week and they were both dry bites. Someone was looking out for him. Now if that cane would have bitten him, I truly dont think that he would be here to this day. That canebrake was 4'5". And a south georgia locale. Let me say this, It is amazing to see people freehandle. No matter how much we dont like it, it still amazes us(well, in some cases it looks ignorant.) In a way it may even seem cool to do, but whos going to look cool when your family gets a call that youre in the ER fighting for your life. Its not worth it to die doing that. If youre going to die for it, go out while doing something important. Save it until it is needed. Now on to the part about people getting bitten and new laws. I think...(this is just my opinion) that the law makers are already wanting to ban dangerous animals and if one of us gets bitten while keeping them as pets, that just gives them fuel for the fire. But...I dont think that laws are passed just because we get bitten by them. Some states are still allowing the keeping of exotics and natives. Not because noone has been bitten but just because theres not really a reason to make laws otherwise. Look at states that are banned...I think that they were banned because the banning of dangerous animals will go hand in hand with other laws that are all ready in effect. Look at North Carolina, You can keep exotics but you cant keep pigmys timbers or edbs(correct me if Im wrong) They have no reason to ban exotics because it wont effect their native wild life. Look at Georgia. WE cant keep exotics but we can keep natives. Our natives arent protected(sadly) because that will allow the rattlesnake roundups to go on. I personally think that all states should have a "florida" style permitting system. I dont live in Florida but they have a good system.(if any lawmakers in florida are reading, I want to tell you to keep up the good work. Florida seems to be the most "thinking ahead" state as far as keeping venomous snakes. That way, Florida can keep track of their natives and allow the floridians to enjoy their hobby. Now if all states would cut past the think layer of bull crap and get to the point and install a permitting system like Florida, we can all be happy. Then the lawmakers can rest and so can we. We can have our native species monitored as well as keeping hots out of ill suited keepers hands.

[bush_master87]

Im sorry about the spelling errors. I am tired and just got off from 3rd shift at the end of a 6 day week. I meant to say "last week" instead of next week when I was talking about my friend getting bitten by the big canebrake.

[lepidus741]

I dont spell that good myself sometimes, i have seen firsthand what a rattlesnake or a copperhead bite can do to a person, i lived in Texas for a while, i saw a person that was bitten by a atrox that was only 12 inches long, he tried to scoot it of the road with his hand,not verry bright. His hand swelled to 2 times its normal size, his fingers looked like sausages this traveled up his arm to about his armpit he spent the night in hospital where he was treates with antivenom the symptoms were after the treatment, he was lucky that he came out with no lasting effects . I also have a friend that was tagged by a copperhead, alot of swelling his finger turned black and the bite ozzed blood and fluid for 2 weeks, he cannot bend his finger also lost fingernail, he was not treated with antivenom. They are not somthing to mess around with!

[redcarpet]

That's crazy,two dry bites in a week!

[cobraman]

I just dont understand the need to free hand.

I don't understand everyone's obsession with free handling. If you do it.....please be carefull,.....If you don't.....good for you. I don't think it is a matter of "NEED" in the first place. That's like saying " I don't understand the need to speed while driving".

whatever....maybe someday someone will figure out what makes us psycho free handlers tick. Then they could cure us, and bring about world peace.