Restricted Firearms owners, check this out!

[gargoyle]

I had this link emailed to me today,,, incredible! That's all I can say. watch the video!

http://www.wiredvideo.com/clips/av10/fast-shooter.wmv

[dave68]

CRAZY REDNECKS

Dave

[mark129er]

It is incredible, but those guns bear no resemblence to the stock models available. Give me a stock Colt .45 anyday.

[greenman1867]

Wow, I work with guns of all sizes for a living (weapons tech in the military) and that is awesome!

Shawn

[Rikki]

Its nice, but when we really take the time to think about it; there is no point in even having such a gun. Im do not think that there is a real reason to keep guns, they are only created to kill and injure. Thousands of kids playing with guns are killed and injured ever day in the US alone. Not to mention all of the creatures (people and animals alike) who are just trying to live a normal life, while people feel the need to destroy. Put your self in the victims place for once. We would be alot better off with out weapons like so in this world, there are many other ways to "defend your self" as some like to say :)

[BOAS_N_PYTHONS]

Wonder if the mob are looking for new help :D

Tony

[Rikki]

lmao :)

[greenman1867]

It's a sport, just like herps are a hobby, LOL I can't believe someone who is into a hobby like this one which is persecuted for no good reason is now falling into the same mould as the people who fear and ban snakes. Fear the criminal and incompetent not the tool.

Wow, I am shocked.

[concept3]

go preach some where else rikki, the guy shoots hand guns in his free time. Whats the big deal? Thats some incredibal shootin tho!!

[Rikki]

I didnt say I was against that, im just talking about the people who do not secure there weapons.....

[Removed_2815]

Originally posted by Rikki
Thousands of kids playing with guns are killed and injured ever day in the US alone.
Be careful with your stats:

In 2001, gun violence killed 2,937 American children and teens (ages 19 and under) in murders, suicides and unintentional shootings, an average of 8 young people each day in the U.S. While this is a welcome decrease of nearly 106 youth from 2000 data, it is still too many American young people killed with guns each year.


- Numbers obtained from Centers for Disease Control (CDC) website, November 2003

Note that these kids were killed as a result of gun violence (murders, suicide, and unintentional use), not just from "playing" with them.

[concept3]

well start a new thread than. Gargoyle just wanted to show us this guys talent.

[gargoyle]

Hey, you know what! I respect everyones opinion but at the same point if there wasn't hunting/fishing/firarms, guess what. Canada wouldn't be here as we know it as that's what our country was founded on. And cars kill a lot more kids each year, how about we all ride bicycles!

[greenman1867]

Okay time to dig out my soap box...........hehe J/K. It was a cool video and really shows the skill that dude had with a handgun, but I hope we can respect each others opinion and drop it, we don't want to turn this into a pi$$ing match.

[Rikki]

Yeah but most cars arent created simple for the purpose of killing :P..... No worries everyone, just expressing an opinion.... And I have watched a documentary on CNN about the gun violence, this is where I got my information RMBolton..... Oh well, lets get back to topic :)

[Removed_2815]

Originally posted by Rikki
And I have watched a documentary on CNN about the gun violence, this is where I got my information RMBolton.....
Just letting you know that you misheard and are gravely misinformed. The average over the past 5-10 years is around 75 U.S. children (19 years and under) are shot with a gun each day, 15 of which die. A far cry from thousands a day...

Here's another one:
In a single year, 3,012 children and teens were killed by gunfire in the United States, according to the latest national data released in 2002. That is one child every three hours; eight children every day; and more than 50 children every week. And every year, at least 4 to 5 times as many kids and teens suffer from non-fatal firearm injuries.
-National Center for Health Statistics

These numbers are still incredibly high; anything above zero is high in my opinion, but thousands a day???

And, yes, quite the impressive display of marksmanship.

Ryan

[Rikki]

I did not mis hear it, other heard it as well and we were discussing it. Even if YOUR stats are true, thats 3,012 that could still be alive if it wasnt for guns ;)

Im leaving this now, lets get back on topic! :p

[Removed_2815]

Dude, you're the one who took this post off topic, LOL!
They're not my stats, I didn't collect these data. They are nationally accepted figures (as in a kid gets shot, gets admitted to the hospital, the forms are filled out, and the figures get compiled annually). If you're going to argue against handguns then you might want to get your facts straight is all :)
Ryan

[Cruciform]

My money's on Ryan:

http://www.statehealthfacts.kff.org/cgi-bin/healthfacts.cgi?action=profile&category=Minority+Health&subcategory=&topic=&link_category=Health+Status&link_subcategory=Deaths+due+to++Firearms&link_topic=Death+Rate+per+100%2c000+by+Race%2fEthn icity&welcome=0&area=United+States

[HeatherRose]

Are you taking bets, Mike? ;)

[justinO]

some people just aren't willing to understand the concept on how firearms in general can be used as sporting equipment. For some people (myself included), target shooting is a major part of their lives, much like how herps are a major part of ours.

that's all i'm going to say on the subject.

Justin

[pablo111]

I was under the impression that a high caliber revolver like that had a lot more recoil and muzzle climb than in this video. Either this guy has steel arms or that is one seriously impact absorbing gun...

That reload was off the hook.

[justinO]

chances are it was a .38/.357 .. pretty light to begin with. Also, i'd be willing to be he was using hand-loaded ammo, so that means he could vary the amount of propellant used, thereby controlling speed and muzzle rise even more. I've shot a .44 magnum that barely passed an air rifle in velocity. You could hear the paper being hit at 20 yards.

Still, a very impressive video. I'd be curious to see how accurate he was too :D

[sneaky_boa]

guns and cars don't kill people....PEOPLE kill people!

Super cool video though...man that guy's FAST!

[gargoyle]

First of all, I was just trying to show what I thought were poeple that might share another of my hobbies "SPORT" shooting a video I thought was amazing.

Second guns aren't created for the purpose of "killing" they are designed for different purposes. target shooting, olympic shooting competition, self defense, hunting/food gathering.

Third........RIKKI...... I guess if you saw it on TV it must be true!!!! LOL I saw a movie that showed a 70foot ananconda hunting people for sport too.....that must be all that they do! LOL no offense but if you believe everything that you see on TV documentary or not, you really need to check yourself and start living in the real world!

Fourth... I realize that not everyone in this forum is going to agree with this sport, that is why I titled this thread what I did,,,, if you are just here to bitch, go troll somewhere else,,,,I didn't title the thread, "LETS TRASH OUR HERITAGE" NOW DID I

[BWSmith]

guns and cars don't kill people....PEOPLE kill people!
Actually, guns don't kill many people. Bullets do :D


There is no doubt that guns are dangerous. But so are venomous reptiles, retics and burms, cars, and a thousand other things when in the hands of irresponsible or dangerous people. The majority of crimes are not committed by individuals that went into a store and purchased a gun legally. Outlaw guns and only outlaws will have guns.

I lived in a bad part of Atlanta for a while. We got broke into 8 times in 6 months. I was home for one of these. I was armed. As soon as they realized this, they left and never came back.

Of course, i also shoot my handguns for sport. We have a range not too far away. But that is a bonus. The primary function is protection. A shotgun on my wife's side of the bed, a 9mm on mine, and a .40 cal CZ in my car. I have never had to use any of them, but there have been several times I was glad they were there.

Of course, it is my understanding that gun talk is not permitted on this forum, so I am sure this thread will be locked down soon.

[zero&stich]

That vid is Sa-weet!!
Those skills would come in handy for deer season.
Damn, when I saw that re-load, I think my jaw crashed down to the floor! LOL. Some crazy stuff. I like target shooting myself, but with a bow. :D, meaning the target is mounted to the tree, no 4 legged animals. :)

[munchy]

got damn!! 6 shots, a reload and 6 more shots all in 2.99. :eek:

[coldblooded]

Rikki:

You can't believe anything on CNN.

Mike

[Slannesh]

Originally posted by Rikki
Its nice, but when we really take the time to think about it; there is no point in even having such a gun. Im do not think that there is a real reason to keep guns, they are only created to kill and injure. Thousands of kids playing with guns are killed and injured ever day in the US alone. Not to mention all of the creatures (people and animals alike) who are just trying to live a normal life, while people feel the need to destroy. Put your self in the victims place for once. We would be alot better off with out weapons like so in this world, there are many other ways to "defend your self" as some like to say :)

Oh where to begin.

First off the incredible hyperbolie isn't really necessary.. "Thousands per day" Give me a friggin break. Yet another example of you totally talking out of your butt without even bothering to do a 30 second google search to back up your BS with some stats from a halfway respectable source.

An unfortunate number of people are killed unnecessarily each year in the US by unsecured or illegally used guns, that's very true. But let's put this in perspective:

(All stats taken from http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr53/nvsr53_05acc.pdf)

"In 2002 a total of 161,269 deaths were classified as injury related...

Motor Vehicle Traffic resulted in 44,065 accidental deaths.

Firearms resulted in 30,242 deaths Suicide and Homicide accounted for 56.6 and 39.1 percent respectively leaving 4.3 percent from all other causes which works out to 1300 'accidental' deaths

Poisoning: 26,435 deaths 66.4 percent of which were unintentional, 20.8 percent were suicides and 12.6 percent were of undetermined intent

Falls: 17,116 deaths 95% of which were unintentional"

Let's recap.

Accidental deaths due to firearms:
1,300
Accidental death due to falling:
16,260
Accidental death due to poisoning:
17,553
Accidental death due to Motor Vehicle accident:
44,065

Some quick math shows that motor vehicles are 33.89 times more likely to accidentally kill a person than a firearm.

We should ban all cars immediatly based on this information of course :rolleyes:

I completely agree that it's sad for any death to occur, however the outcry that guns are the source of so many deaths blah blah is just a bunch of crap. Even when you add in the suicide AND homicide rates to the, by comparison, miniscule accidental rate, more people are killed in motor vehicle accidents than in all firearms related incidents combined. And let's not forget that all injury related deaths combined only account for 161,269 of the 2,443,387 deaths that occured in the US in 2002.

That's 6.6% overall and accidental death due to firearm accounted for only 0.0005% of all deaths in 2002.

As for the On topic portion of my post :)

That video was very cool.. SO fast! wow.

[HeatherRose]

While it's only a miniscule 1300 deaths, it's still 1300 lives and 1300 families ruined. I respect people's rights to target shoot and compete, however IMO many guns were created to kill people, not for hunting. No one goes deer hunting with Tek 9's.

Just because statistics show something else is more deadly because the math says so, doesn't mean that these deaths aren't completely unessesary, tragic, and especially preventable.

Getting back on topic, that video was really cool.

[munchy]

guns dont kill people. people kill people..

[Slannesh]

Heather: I was in no way trying to downplay the individual loss and damage that those 1300 accidental deaths caused. Any family losing a loved one is a horrible thing. I was simply pointing out that there are other things and situations out there that take many more lives in even more preventable and senseless ways. Falls, car accidents and accidental poisonings alone account for literally tens of thousands of totally preventable deaths per year.

[HeatherRose]

I could see that Slannesh... my post wasn't directed at you, it was directed at the statistics themselves more than anything else. Your posts are always great and well thought out, I'm not gonna argue with them :)

[gargoyle]

Honestly do any of you think that by not allowing the law abiding people that have all there proper licenses and permits, locks and cases, to own certain guns that it is going to stop any of the criminals that have guns that are usually brought into the country illegally or better yet, stolen from our own military or police forces, do you really think it will make a difference.

Law abiding shooters such as myself have to keep a 100% clean record to own these firearms. You can't even have a restricted if you've had a divorce and your X says she doesn't want you to have one (for real reasons or not). Plus there are numerous background checks and to transport them you have to be a member of an established shooting club that can issue an "Authorization To Transport" or ATT. Which generally means another background check and safety course. After all of this you still can only transport it form your residence to the shooting club in question in the most direct route! The gun has to be double locked and stored and transported in seperate locked cases from the ammo. So do you really think that someone with thousands of dollars into there equipment going to piss it all away! I don't think so and to my knowledge the majority of crimes/deaths are caused or commited by unauthorized illegal users and possesers of these firearms, so maybe all the people on this message board that are uttering useless facts about how many people are killed each year should tell all the facts and not just the ones that make them look (even though its easy to see through) smart! Cobras kill over 20, 000 people in india each year, maybe we should extirpate them to save those lives. Do you really think that eliminating the end "tool" is the answer..... The answer for you that can't decide is no.....in both cases EDUCATION is the better solution! And maybe some police in both Canada and the USA that can actually do there job properly without being a part of the problem! Have a nice day!

[munchy]

yeah most people i know with handguns dont have their FAC, nevermind restricted permit. :(

[BWSmith]

Amazed this has not been locked. :eek:

I will say that I think that there needs to be better regulation on firearms in the US. Take my state, Georgia, for example. I have a Concealed Carry Permit. I can carry a weapon virtually anywhere (with the exception of bars and events such as football games). What did it take to get this permit? A clean criminal record and $45. So in actuallity, some lady could carry a Glock in her purse without ever having fired a weapon in her life. What do you need to keep a gun in your car here? Basically, a gun, a holster and a car. The only stipulation is that it has to bee in plain site or in the glove box and it HAS to be in a holster that covers the trigger. You do not even have to tell an officer that it is there unless they ask. In fact, the cops I talked to would rather not know because it takes another 20 minutes for them to run the serial number. I think there are improvements that could be made. I do like the background check for handguns. But I treasure my right to own these weapons.

I think that it is difficult for Americans and Canadians to discuss such a controversial issue because of cultural and legal differences. I am sure that our Georgia laws seem very lax compared to some Canadian ones, and even laws in other areas of the United States.

[justinO]

here in canada, its virtually impossible for a civillian to get a carry permit. law enforcement, military and armed guards are petty much it to my knowledge.

We are not allowed to defend ourselves with lethal force unless it was the "minimal amount of force needed" or something like that.. basically, if someone breaks in and has a gun, i still cant shoot him. if he points the gun at me, i have to go to my locked gun safe, open it, take off the trigger lock from my pistol, then go to a sepeate ammo container, unlock it and then load. only after that can i justify shooting him.

there are also three classes of firearms in canada. restricted (pistols, some assault rifles such as AR-15's), non-restricted (regular hunting rifles, shotguns, and prohibited stuff (very very short barrelld pistols, converted-full auto such as FN's and AK's).. Restricted and prohib firearms require special permits to take them to and from an aproved range. no keeping them in you trunk and taking them to the cottage for pop-bottles.

thats a very very brief outline of canadian firearms law.

Regardless of law, I'm a firm beliveer that it's bette to be tried by twelve then carried by six.

Thanks to the mods for not locking this thead, Everyone has been civil, and it's been educational :)

[munchy]

Originally posted by BWSmith
Amazed this has not been locked. :eek:

I will say that I think that there needs to be better regulation on firearms in the US. Take my state, Georgia, for example. I have a Concealed Carry Permit. I can carry a weapon virtually anywhere (with the exception of bars and events such as football games). What did it take to get this permit? A clean criminal record and $45. So in actuallity, some lady could carry a Glock in her purse without ever having fired a weapon in her life. What do you need to keep a gun in your car here? Basically, a gun, a holster and a car. The only stipulation is that it has to bee in plain site or in the glove box and it HAS to be in a holster that covers the trigger. You do not even have to tell an officer that it is there unless they ask. In fact, the cops I talked to would rather not know because it takes another 20 minutes for them to run the serial number. I think there are improvements that could be made. I do like the background check for handguns. But I treasure my right to own these weapons.

I think that it is difficult for Americans and Canadians to discuss such a controversial issue because of cultural and legal differences. I am sure that our Georgia laws seem very lax compared to some Canadian ones, and even laws in other areas of the United States.
im still learning but i realize that it is two completely different worlds. while i dont quite disagree with your concealed carry laws or being able to pack a piece everywhere you go, i just think maybe the laws could be a little more strict. do you have to attend any kind of course or anything?

also as far as i know you guys can legally shoot someone if they break into your house and are armed? thats the way it should be IMO. justinO explained it pretty well and im sure you agree that its ridiculous.
if i was ever sleeping and was awakened by a noise or something and i snuk out of my room to check it out only to find that somebody had broken into my house and had a weapon, youd best believe he would get 2 to the chest and 1 in the grill. no questions asked. as far as i know those guys are there to do harm to me and/or my family. i dont care what the law is i would never let that happen.

[BWSmith]

Interesting. If someone breaks into your house here, they do not even have to be armed. As long as they are shot from the front (i.e. not trying to run away) and they are actually INSIDE the house, it is legal. The officers here even tell people to "empty the clip". There have been cases of armed individuals breaking in to people's houses, getting shot non-fatally, suing the homeowner, and WINNING! :eek: Homeowners here are encouraged, that if you are defending your home, the assailant not survive. I was taught to shoot by a member of SWAT (both semiautomatic and automatic weapons), he and many members of law enforcement have all said the same thing : "Dead men don't sue". That is pretty much an exact quote. Just an example of how the laws (and lawsuits) contribute around here.

Here is a mind blower for some of you. The town next to mine REQUIRES THAT EVERY HOUSE OWN A GUN. It is the law. You HAVE to own a gun if you own a house. You do not, however, have to own ammunition. The year that law passed, burglaries dropped by about 90% I think (have to look it up). Just goes to show that an armed civilian is a poor target for a criminal.


I cannot imagine living in a society that requires so much in order to defend yourself or your home with lethal force. A home is close quarters combat and alot can happen in a matter of seconds. I am 5'6" and about 130 pounds. There are people out there that could attack me with deadly force without being armed, and I should be able to defend myself with such.

If they are legal there, Bean Bag Guns are pretty effective ;)

[Slannesh]

For the record since i'm not sure if Gargoyle was referring to me when he said

"so maybe all the people on this message board that are uttering useless facts about how many people are killed each year should tell all the facts and not just the ones that make them look (even though its easy to see through) smart! "

I'd like to point out that i'm VERY Pro responsible gun ownership. And VERY against illegal ownership of handguns and the use of firearms in any crime. Personally I think such an act should carry a manditory maximum sentence and an additional charge as well, but that's just me.

Amusingly enough I don't currently own any :)

[munchy]

i completely agree with everything you said and ive heard of people suing for things like that. "Dead men dont sue." lol makes sense to me. lol not sure about those bean bag guns though.

justinO:
Regardless of law, I'm a firm beliveer that it's bette to be tried by twelve then carried by six.
i have to agree with that also..

[BWSmith]

do you have to attend any kind of course or anything?
nope. Not a thing. Just a clean record and $45. I think that at least an hour of range time amonth should be required. I was sorely disappointed when I got my new .40 cal. I could not hit anything. So I kept going back to the range until I got a feel for it and could alternate between it and the 9mm with great accuracy. With no children in the house, I do not have to take as many precautions as if I did have children. My handguns stay loaded with one in the chamber (safety on).

Between the Rattlesnakes downstairs and the firearms downstairs, woe behold the man that breaks in my house.

[munchy]

Originally posted by BWSmith

Between the Rattlesnakes downstairs and the firearms downstairs, woe behold the man that breaks in my house.
LOL no kidding id say you got home defense pretty well covered.:D

[munchy]

Originally posted by justinO
here in canada, its virtually impossible for a civillian to get a carry permit. law enforcement, military and armed guards are petty much it to my knowledge.

which if you ask me is pointless considering everyone and their dog now carries one anyway. registered or non-registered/stolen.

[BWSmith]

It is the same way with venomous reptiles. If there is a reasonable permit system in place, people are more likely to stay legal.

[justinO]

Originally posted by munchy
which if you ask me is pointless considering everyone and their dog now carries one anyway. registered or non-registered/stolen.


Personally, I do not know of ANY legal firearm owners who break any laws other then the 5rd ammo cap on rifles. It is irresponsible and like herps, its VERY easy to have many thousands of dollars worth of equipment. Not too many people are going to go out and drop a few grand on a snake if it's illegal where they live due to municipal/state laws. too much to risk for what it's worth.

Again, like herps, its the irresponsible idiots that make for tougher laws against the hobby and legetimate owners.

justin

[munchy]

.

[gargoyle]

Slannesh: I was not refering to anyone in particular with my comments, just making a general statement!

Munchy: If you know that many people without permits that own handguns, you are really setting yourself up for a life behind bars if you call these people friends.

FOR EVERYONE THAT HAS STATED THEY ARE AMAZED THIS THREAD HASN'T BEEN SHUT DOWN!

[gargoyle]

Slannesh: I was not refering to anyone in particular with my comments, just making a general statement!

Munchy: If you know that many people without permits that own handguns, you are really setting yourself up for a life behind bars if you call these people friends.

FOR EVERYONE THAT HAS STATED THEY ARE AMAZED THIS THREAD HASN'T BEEN SHUT DOWN!

[gargoyle]

FOR EVERYONE THAT HAS STATED THEY ARE AMAZED THIS THREAD HASN'T BEEN SHUT DOWN!

If you read the forum rules, there is nothing about firearms discussions in there and everyone here has been civil and made valid points without being rude!


All I wanted to do was show, what I thought might be some people that are interested in this video something that I thought was amazing.... I guess I should have expected a bunch of people that are just fear mongers similar to the ones making our animal bylaws in Canada, would be jumping on here and making a nice friendly thread a place to debate an issue they no nothing about in reality.....when they go out to a sportsman show and look at the info available, or better yet go to a gun club and talk to some of the people than maybe they will have a better understanding of the time and skill involved in a sport like this and that it isn't made up of murderers and criminals, but well respected and upstanding citizens! Have a nice day

If your reading these just to trash firearms start a new thread, that isn't what this one is about!

[chas*e]

Falling trees kill 62 people a yr in Canada...ban the tree ....lol...wimps.....Long live the personal firearm
Great shooting....

[munchy]

Originally posted by gargoyle
Slannesh: I was not refering to anyone in particular with my comments, just making a general statement!

Munchy: If you know that many people without permits that own handguns, you are really setting yourself up for a life behind bars if you call these people friends.

FOR EVERYONE THAT HAS STATED THEY ARE AMAZED THIS THREAD HASN'T BEEN SHUT DOWN!
funny i dont remember ever saying i was friends with any of them. it was a good assumtion though as i do know a few of them personally...
how do you figure ill end up behind bars because i know people who are idiots? what they do has **** all to do with me..

[Skinnychondro]

Remember the Simpsons episode when Homer gets a gun. When he's sitting on the front lawn for like 2 days waiting for his permit to come and everything he sees has a target on it. LMAO!!!

[gargoyle]

Munchy all I'm saying is that if you keep company with people like that, no matter how much you attempt to avoid trouble, it'll eventually find you! Sometimes knowing the "personally" is all it takes!

[munchy]

meh i can see how one might think so but my momma aint raised no fool.:D i dont involve myself in anything stupid. its not worth it..

[gargoyle]

Good to hear!

[Lisa]

Interesting vid.

As for what's legal and illegal in canada you would be surprised. I have the list of what's illegal in canada and surprisingly the gun that caused many of these guns to make the list isn't on it (mini 14, think montreal, marc lepean)

We live out in the country and have a gun. It's not for target shooting or hunting, it's for killing things (self defence). We can't wait for animal control to come around to take care of a rabid animal or for the cops to come and take care of an intruder.

Here's an interesting statistic, I don't know if it's true or not, but in Ontario there is one gun for every 3 people. That's alot of guns, yet we don't have alot of gun deaths. Why is that? Could it be that our media up here doesn't have us living in fear like the US does, or maybe to get a gun we have to learn gun safety and get a licence. The types of guns restricted up here are similar to many of the restricted guns in the states (contrary to popular belief you can not get any type of gun you want in the usa) so the type of guns we have isn't the issue.

I'm all for mandatory education and regulation of gun ownership (though the gun registry is just a joke that costs you the tax payer money) but lets put the blame for gun deaths where it belongs, on the individual, not the gun.

[BWSmith]

(contrary to popular belief you can not get any type of gun you want in the USA)

Actually, if you go through the proper channels, you CAN. A Class C Permit and $500 transfer fee is all that is required for fully automatic weapons or weapons with suppressors (Silencers). You can buy a grenade launcher, just not the grenades. A Flame Thrower falls under the same regulations as a commercial bug sprayer. And now that the Assault Weapons ban is void, we can get more. Specialty rounds come to mind: Armor Piercing, Magnesium Tracers, Flachet and flamethrower shotgun rounds, High Cap mags, the list goes on. GOD I LOVE THIS COUNTRY! :D But amazingly, legal automatic weapons, high cap mags, and supressors, and specialty ammo are rarely used in crimes.

On the upside, criminals generally buy crap. Cheap ammo and throw-away guns that don't work. If you can unload a Lorson pistol without it jamming, I'll give you a dollar. And most big cities have stiffened the penalty for illegal firearms while maintaining our rights. Atlanta for example has a minimum 5 years in jail for illegal firearms.


Gargoyle, about a year or two ago, ANY post that mentioned firearms was deleted. I guess it was realized that they ARE a fact of life, and while controversial, still warrent discussion. I thank the administration for allowing such topics.