Is taking a dog herping with you a bad idea?

[Reticsrule]

I was just wondering your guys opinions on this because i get lonely when i go herping and i always take my dog with me. Do you think that she might be scaring the snakes away and that's why i didnt find any last season?

[peterm15]

its quite possible. or maybe your just not good.. lol. j/k.. id say take her with sometimes but sometimes dont.. just to see for yourself if shes scarin them away..

[pablo111]

I took my dog herpin once or twice. It makes you really angry at your dog. Invariably, it will frighten things away just as you're about to catch them. I've had my dog run up and squash praying mantises and snakes infront of me.

Even worse, sometimes the dog catches something before you, and you end up with a dead snake or something...

There's just no benefit to bringing a dog. You'll yell at it more than anything.

[marisa]

I agree with pablo....although I might be biased as I have a Jack Russell and her whole life revolves around searching for living things to kill. :D

Marisa

[Removed_2815]

Domestic animals (dogs, cats, etc.) have absolutely no place in a natural ecosystem. They are predators and there is no benefit to subjecting the natural flora and fauna to their presence.
Ryan

[Reticsrule]

ok maybe ill try not taking her a few times and see what happens.

[ydnic]

RMBolton

Don`t you think that statement is a little harsh?

Not trying to start anything here but growing up on an acreage - I think that a farm or an acreage is the best place for domesticated cat or dog. I doubt that they do anymore hunting that a coyote, fox, or cougar.

Obviously while herping, you wouldn`t want to bring your pet for the obvious statements listed above - but I don`t think a statement like the one made above is justifiable.

Abosolutely No Place in a natural ecosystem kind of a blanket statement.
I think that a naural ecosystem, as you put it, makes a great place for domestic animals in a lot of respects as apposed to a city. Its just my opion though. I know many of the problems a domesticated dog can cause - however many ppl will agree that a farm/acreage is a better place for a dog or cat...

[Fieldnotes]

Sometimes I take my Lab with me when i'm looking for snakes. I have him trained to sit at a distance as soon as i start flipping rocks or boards. The biggest problem I have are the ticks. The ticks are a pain to pull off. So, if you dont have time to pick through your dog's hair following a hike, then it is best just to leave him at home.

[ChurleR]

Actually, what RMBolton said was blatant fact. There are way too many dogs and cats in the United States because they've been ill-cared for, and not only that cats are considered an "invasive" species even though we introduced them. There are smaller populations of bobcats and such that hunt to feed themselves, while "domestic" cats tend to kill for no reason, even if they're being fed well at home. There is a Dr. here at my university who based his entire thesis on domesticated cats and the damage that they do to local fauna. The research shows pretty nasty facts.

[Cake]

Cats are urban terrorists.

Think of it this way. We humans provide them with the necessities of life (food, shelter, and water), and they still kill other animals. You show me a cat which is not kept inside 100% of the time that has not come home with a dead bird, mouse, lizzard or snake. Dogs are not as bad as cats, but they are still natural predators. My two dogs allways chase chipmunks and squirrels while out camping (one of the reasons they are kept tied up).

Dogs and Cats are an introduced alien species to our natural ecosystem, there is no other way to look at it. We get mad when other species are introduced and take measures against them (eg zebra muscles, snakehead fish) but afford domesticated pets such as dogs and cats free will to hunt and kill native species.

[Removed_2815]

Cake and ChurleR have addressed your post nicely, so I will be brief.

Originally posted by ydnic
RMBolton

Don`t you think that statement is a little harsh?
No, not for people who are taught about ecosystem dynamics. It's just the way it is. Look what happened to the Dodo as a result of the introduction of domesticated animals into the natural ecosystem.

Originally posted by ydnic
I think that a farm or an acreage is the best place for domesticated cat or dog. I doubt that they do anymore hunting that a coyote, fox, or cougar.
That's just it, isn't it? The fact that they do any hunting is what throws the whole system out of whack.
You're justifying an invasive predator by comparing it to a naturally occurring predator - that just doesn't fly.

Prey populations are kept in check by their natural predators, if there wasn't a perfect balance then there would be an explosion in the predator population or the prey population. If there's not enough prey then the predators starve, which allows the prey population to increase, which causes the predator population to increase due to increased feeding opportunities, which then decreases the prey population, and so on... We don't see these extremes in natural ecosystems because they are in an ideal balance.
Now, throw in a feral predatory species and I hope you can see how the scales can get tipped...

I'll say again, domestic cats especially and dogs to a lesser extent (though I have seen some pretty savage dogs go out into the field and come back with pheasants, squirrels, etc. all in a single day) have no place in a natural ecosystem.

Ryan

[K1LOS]

Dogs and cats are certainly no worse then humans.

Geoff

[snakehunter]

RMB you are the MAN finally I meet someone with the same veiws; I have cats, but they are fat lazy good for nothings that only kill cat food and MIGHT play with a toy mouse. We actually did tests back when I fed live and the cats where only interested in the mice jsut to see what it was, no predatory acts at all.

I am absolutely infuriated when we go for hikes with the outdoor club and some ritous person decides to bring their dogs; unleashed on the trail. Some times I wish....................mmmmmmm nevermind.

[Removed_2815]

Originally posted by K1LOS
Dogs and cats are certainly no worse then humans.
Yes, humans are certainly a significant source of ecosystem destruction. Keep in mind that it is because of humans that these domesticated animals are allowed to wreak havoc on the wild populations.
Ryan

[ydnic]

Ryan

I understand where you are comming from for sure. Comparing them to natural occuring preditors is some what ignorant.

I still believe that your statement wasn`t completely correct. Agree to disagree I guess. To each their own. I respect you for what you say, however I also don`t think that a statement "wreak havoc" is quite right either. Maybe ontario is different from saskatchewan. IMHO I don`t belive that taking my dog for a walk down to the river, to an off leash park, or owning an acreage with freeroaming pets, wreaks havoc as you put it . And I don`t think collectively all the people who do it are either. Yes I can see the point you are making, yes I can see and understand some of the damage that is done, (my dog steps on a plant it dies, my cat catches a bird it dies, and so on ) but I don`t quite see this as wreaking havoc.

Furthermore, you state that it is a significant amount of destruction we are facing because of our own human acts. I agree that it is also beacuse of humans that domesticated pets are doing damage. However, I don`t beleive that I should keep my pets indoors (from getting fresh air and exercize) because they are not naturally occuring members of the surrounding ecosystem.

Dogs and Cats were not genetically engineered by humans. They were domesticated. They would still be around reguardelss, and considdering what people do, they are the least of all threats to a natural ecosystem. A dog walking through the forest is no more of a destructive matter, than a person walking through the forest. You can say that YOU would never just grab a rabbit and kill it, but I can say that MY DOG would never do that either. That isn`t including all dogs, or all people. You could then say that people don`t belong in a natural ecosystem, but then that would just be unnatrual in itself (plus I would think you had a PETA shirt on under that jacket :) )
I guess I think that yes, there is destruction, but in my mind I see destruction as breaking a window - and Wreaking Havok as tearing down the whole house.

You also stated that Prey populations are kept in check by their natural predators - that isn`t entirely true. Prey Populations always overpopulate. It is something sometimes uncontrollable. It is a fact, and if you are learning ecosystem dynamics, I would think that you might know that.

Anyways, not to come across as abraisive ( since i`ve been told before that I do) I just wanted to try and state a few reasons why I feel the way I do. I can say I do agree with your intent here in this conversation , I guess I don`t agree with your wording - but maybe I just read it wrong. Although it is nice to see that some people are educating themselves on these matters!

:)

[Removed_2815]

Cindy,
I can appreciate your point of view. However, if you were to look at the reports and studies on the subject then you too would embrace my verbiage, as these animals do wreak havoc on natural populations. Since you have not, then you are free to agree to disagree, but it would be nice if you could direct us to some scientific basis for your disagreement.
I don't want to convince you that you're wrong to let your animals loose as it's none of my business what you do. It's entirely your choice and I don't judge you, but you should understand that letting cats and dogs out into the wild does have a significant negative impact (wreaking havoc, so to speak) on the natural ecosystems that I speak of.
Kind regards,
Ryan

[Siretsap]

If it were such a nuisance, then we wouln't even go in those secluted areas in the 1st place. Try going into a swamp where there are billions of baby toads and try not to kill one with your steps...

It all comes down to how you raised your dog and how he reacts to wildlife. I know people who have very well trained dogs that do not do half the dammage to wildlife than would a regular person who tries to go herping...

[Fieldnotes]

In Hawaii, where I lived for 3-months they would ban importation of nearly every species of animal. Except CATS!! Can you imagine that, banning all animals except the most devastating of them all. I would see passengers at the airport caring rats (oh, I mean cats) in “carry-on cages.”

[Removed_2815]

Originally posted by Siretsap
If it were such a nuisance, then we wouln't even go in those secluted areas in the 1st place. Try going into a swamp where there are billions of baby toads and try not to kill one with your steps...
Responsible field-herpers wouldn't do this. Are you advocating this? Why would you enter an area where you're aware that there is a high likelihood of killing the natural fauna?

Originally posted by Siretsap
It all comes down to how you raised your dog and how he reacts to wildlife.
I agree, but these studies are not based on the individual. Everyone's arguments with these facts are "not my dog" or "not my cat" but we're talking about the cumulative effect of these animals. I am also not comparing cats and dogs to other species (such as man), I'm only pointing out that these animals (cats, dogs, hogs, etc.) have a negative impact on natural ecosystems.

I really wish everyone could stop comparing it to the actions of man, that's not what's at issue here. I've already pointed out that this negative impact is a result of man introducing these species, so there's no comparison, it is a result of man's actions.

Cheers,
Ryan

[Siretsap]

What would make someone a responsible field herper???

We all know that as soon as you move a rock, a log or touch anything in a secluted area, you changed the course of evolution for the surroundings of that rock or log.
I won't even go in details to how many lichens or moss or other plants that are dammaged when we walk into those woods or wild life areas.

We can all pretend to be best field herpers, but no one can go in and out without causing some form of dammage.

I never argued with the studies you are talking about. We all know what stray cats can do. But a domesticated and well trained dog...

Anyhow, the subject derived from it's original post. I would only bring a dog that has a calm temperment and is well trained to obey you when you go herping.

[Removed_2815]

Once again, I am not defending the actions of man. Just because humans have a negative impact on ecosystems does not mean that introduced domestic animals are any less of a problem. We are talking about the impacts of domestic animals on ecosystems, not whether humans have a greater impact.
You seem to be defending the actions of introduced species by comparing it to man.
Ryan

[Siretsap]

No I am not defending what you insinuate.

The studies you are talking about are on stay populations or animals that are left unsupervised (letting your cat out all day).

The initial question of this post was about brigning a dog on a herping day. My answer is yes if your dog is well trained and a calm temperment.

[Reticsrule]

well my dog is definetly not calm she is crazy.also she MUST be in front of you at all times(i mean like 20 feet ahead of you). therefor i would say that she could easily scare everything in my path.

[ChurleR]

1)<i>
Dogs and Cats were not genetically engineered by humans. They were domesticated. They would still be around reguardelss, and considdering what people do, they are the least of all threats to a natural ecosystem.</i>

What are the naturally occuring breeds of dog and cat within Canada and the U.S. that would be there without humans?

2)<i>You also stated that Prey populations are kept in check by their natural predators - that isn`t entirely true. Prey Populations always overpopulate. It is something sometimes uncontrollable.</i>

I live in Georgia in the US, people down here have a great tradition of hunting deer every "season". One of their main reasons for that is because "The deer population gets too high and we have to keep it in check or else more people will die in wrecks, etc". The only reason we have such a huge deer population is because we killed all of the wolves and mountain lions that used to inhabit this area and keep the populations in check.

It's a large cycle that's rather simple, the prey populations get large, the predator populations expand and catch up because food is more abundant. The prey starts to dwindle as the population of predators booms and predators start dying out therough competition. The prey population picks back up.... rinse, repeat, etc.

Humans are the main disturbance in this cycle, and often we completely destroy it. Cats and dogs limit the prey population in such a way in some areas that the natural predators get into a fierce competition over resources and tend to have lower population numbers in that area. Mainly they're so bad because of people abandoning them and being left to their own devices they have become an invasive species just like any other that takes resources from naturally occuring animals.

I'll find Dr. Wolfe's thesis down here one day and rattle of some statistics that might change your mind, at least for the southeastern US... I can't speak for Canada so much but I'm quite sure that you have the same problem up there.

[Removed_2815]

Originally posted by ydnic
It is a fact, and if you are learning ecosystem dynamics, I would think that you might know that.
I would have addressed this earlier, had you not slipped it in in a subsequent edit :rolleyes:. I am not learning ecosystem dynamics, that's basic biology from many, many years ago. ChurleR has again addressed this quite nicely, humans are often the main disturbance in the overpopulation of either predator or prey.

Originally posted by Siretsap
No I am not defending what you insinuate.
Both of your previous posts relate the impacts from domestic animals to field-herping by humans as a means to justify letting your animals run loose.

Originally posted by Siretsap
The studies you are talking about are on stay populations or animals that are left unsupervised (letting your cat out all day).
The potential damage to the ecosystem is the same whether the domesticated animal is allowed to trample through the wilderness for an hour, a day, a week, or it's whole life. Obviously a feral cat that lives its entire life outdoors is going to do more damage than one that's only let out once a week. The fact that it does any damage at all is what worries ecologists, and is reason enough for my original statement in this thread.

Cheers,
Ryan

[Removed_2815]

Originally posted by ydnic
IMHO I don`t belive that taking my dog for a walk down to the river, to an off leash park, or owning an acreage with freeroaming pets, wreaks havoc as you put it .
The original post asks about taking a dog field-herping. Obviously, an off-leash park is not the sensitive ecosystem that we have been discussing throughout this thread. I never said that dogs must be locked up at all times; there are appropriate places to take them for walks, such as an off-leash park.
Ryan

[Removed_2815]

Reticsrule, though I believe this thread elicited a good discussion, I kind of took it off track from your original query. All of the biological reasons why you shouldn't bring the dog aside, I think you'd have better luck on your own. It is possible that all the commotion is enough to scare off any possible finds before you get a chance to see them.
Good luck to you!
Ryan

[Reticsrule]

RMBolton: the thread did go off topic but i appreciate the extra info. the really bad thing about my dog(as far as field herping goes) is that she is always like 15 feet ahead of you therefor any ground you cover she covers first. so if a snake was sitting in the field basking shell scare it away.

[ydnic]

"I would have addressed this earlier, had you not slipped it in in a subsequent edit"

when was it edited :
Last edited by ydnic on 02-17-05 at 09:07 PM

When did you reply?

02-17-05 09:32 PM

I didn`t edit it to add anything - I edited to correct a spelling mistake

Also - I don`t think I need scientific evidence to back up my own opinon

"Obviously, an off-leash park is not the sensitive ecosystem that we have been discussing throughout this thread."

The off leash park where I live is down by our river in the woods - of course you wouldn`t have known that since I didn`t go into details of the off leash park I use - but please stop ripping apart my OPINION - it was an opinon and nothing more - which doesn`t need to be cut and quoted constantly throughout this thread.

I am quite puzzled at how in one thread - you are not trying to convince me I am wrong but you continue to belittle my opinon - which I have rights to.

You say that an appropriate place is an off leash park - but that is a generalization as well because you obviously didn`t know my off leash park is at our river and in the woods where there is plenty of natrual wildlife. I am sure that this isn`t the only off leash park like this either - so an off leash park isn`t so obivously insensitive to these things.

[Removed_2815]

The quote function on this forum is not here to belittle opinions, but merely to address specific aspects of a person's post. If you don't want to be quoted then don't post.

For the record, most of the people here have been speaking from a scientific perspective, so to come in with a purely anecdotal opinion is what elicits argument. I've already said that you're welcome to your opinion, but you should know that my original post that you called into question is based on fact. If you want to refute the statement then bring something factual to the argument. To just come out and say that you don't think there's a negative impact and that a natural ecosystem "makes a great place for domestic animals" contributes nothing, to be brutally honest. Give us something substantial and we'll listen.

As for the off-leash park discussion, if the park is in fact an off-leash park, as sanctioned by your municipality, then ipso facto, it would not be a sensitive ecosystem. Hence my generalization that it would be okay to take your dog to such a place. If it's just a place by the river that you take your dog to then that doesn't necessarily make it an off-leash park. Also, recall that the original poster was not asking about taking his dog for a walk in an off-leash park.

Ryan

[Fieldnotes]

I lived 3-months in Hawaii and noticed they ban many animals form importation into the state, but they didn’t ban Cats, the evilest animal of all. Cats devastat native animal.. Cats are rat. I’m wondering if my early post was deleted due to freedom of speech or if i postied your; so im posting again.

[Fieldnotes]

oh, I found my orginal post and here it is...

I lived 3-months in Hawaii and noticed the ban many animals form importation into the state, but they didn’t ban Cats, the evilest animal of all. Cats are the devastating to native animal.. Cats are rat (oh I mean cat). I’m wondering if my early post was deleted due to freedom of speech; so im posting again.

[Removed_2815]

Originally posted by Reticsrule
so if a snake was sitting in the field basking shell scare it away.
I agree that this might decrease your odds of finding anything. I've done some herping in Pennsylvania and surrounding states for a conservation genetics study on 5-lined skinks. These guys are pretty tricky to find and spook really easily. I have noticed that it is good practice to be as quiet as possible (slow and deliberate steps) and keep your eyes and ears open. Keep your wits about you and stay focused and you should have a rewarding experience.
Ryan

[Reticsrule]

i guess ill just have to try it a few times without her and see how it goes.

thx for the answers everyone!

[ChurleR]

Just remember to use your ears, I found two Eastern Hognoses in the leaf litter last year just by stopping and listening for the sliding, crackling noise, best of luck to you.

[Cerastes]

Hey Ryan! I don't wanna upset your excellent debate. There are exceptions to the rule. There is grey area to the seemingly black and white situation. There are herp researchers in Texas (and Arizona I believe) using dogs to search for and track snakes in study. These are Crotalus studies! We want to train our 5 year-old Golden Retriever to track hognose snakes around here. We already practise many other forms of training with both of our dogs. BTW we also walk our dogs in natural surroundings almost every day, and they have no more impact than we do. The reason is simple - because we are responsible dog owners!

We can discuss this further as we sit and sell calendars next Sunday!

Take care
Steve

[Removed_2815]

Hey Steve! I agree that there are exceptions, definitely. I, too, am a responsible dog owner and I take my dog for walks through natural areas as well, though I make sure that he is leashed and remains on the trail with me.
I think the concern is only when people let an animal loose and leave them to their own devices. The cumulative effect of this is what makes it a problem. But for you or me to take our dogs for a walk through a natural, non-sensitive ecosystem would have no more impact then if we were to walk the trail alone.

See ya on Sunday...

Cheers,
Ryan
P.S. Can I borrow your retriever when (s)he's trained? Sure would save me a lot of time for species counts ;)

[Manitoban Herps]

If you were responsible you would have your dog on a leash, that way he could kill the snake before you got there, and your ot responsible if you bring a untrained dog to go herping either.

We use both of our german short hair pointers to sniff and point out snakes for us.

[Reticsrule]

wow your lucky theyll sniff out snakes and not kill them. my dog is WAY too phsyco.

[Brent Strande]

Originally posted by Reticsrule
wow your lucky theyll sniff out snakes and not kill them. my dog is WAY too phsyco.

Then that has got to answer your question!

[Reticsrule]

Originally posted by Brent Strande
Then that has got to answer your question!

yeah i guess it kinda does lol.

[Reticsrule]

Originally posted by Brent Strande
Then that has got to answer your question!

yeah i guess it kinda does lol.

[Reticsrule]

Originally posted by Brent Strande
Then that has got to answer your question!

yeah i guess it kinda does lol.

[MathieuO]

Some dogs seems to be helpful:

http://www.woodturtle.com/photogallery/details.php?image_id=40

http://www.tortoisereserve.org/Sanctuary/Prog_Sanctuary_Body2.html

[Reticsrule]

lol thats pretty cool but my dog would just kill the turtle rather than show mw it.

sry for triple posting last time(i cant help it lol