can cat food for monitors

[dennis.epp]

I was just wondering if anybody has considered feeding can cat food to monitors. I have a trio of red ackies and a cat and I gave a little bit of cat food to the ackies which they eat like nothing. But before I consider giving them anymore I what to make sure it is ok. I would only be feeding it once a week.
thanks

[SHvar]

Why is it that in cycles every year new monitor owners ask this same question?
Anyways, NO, its no good for them, canned or dry cat food is whatever the company puts in the can, it looks like or smells like meat but is flavored and scented with animal fat to make them want it. Cat food is being questioned by many vets and experts as being no good for cats. Monitors eat whole animals, thats the only proven diet, why use cat or dog food. Another discussion someone said that they use it for enrichment, if it does not good for them, and is not useful for them, then how is it enriching to them? Id just avoid it, feed monitors monitor food, after all a monitor is an extreme generalist at feeding they will eat darn near anything they can wheteher its edible or good for them.
Note, the laws dont cover truth in ingredient labels for "not for human consumption foods" or "not for animals to be used in human consumption" those manufacturers could extrude raw sewage and sell it as dog, fish, bird, or catfood. Stick with something you know the ingredients. Good luck

[V.hb]

cat food is for cats :)

[dennis.epp]

OK I would like to start by saying thanks for the response but I disagree in part. First I would like to say that I am experienced with reptiles and exotic having raised them most of my life. I agree that sure there are a number of brands of pet food out there which are not exactly what you think they are but on the same note there are a number of brands out there that are real meat and natural. I know that they do not have to list what is in them but if they do list the ingredient they are then governed by it. There very well may be some cat food being questioned by vet but you could not say that all are. Cat and dogs are still some of the most popular pets and therefore much more is done to ensure a healthy captive life, especially with food, I am not saying that some of the cheap stuff may be crap but not all.
It was also stated that monitors eat whole animals but so does/did cats and dogs and therefore the food produced for it is made to replace that. My reason for talking about it is that cat food possibly could give a more balance diet in that it provides more vitamins and minerals than what a cat would get from simply eating a mouse. And for that reason I ask the question which I should have made it more clear, which was to see if anybody knew if there was possibly a vitamin or mineral or ingredient found in cat food which was not good for some reason. Like for example I found out dry commercial cat food is "formulated to produce the excretion of acid...which increases calcium excretion...predisposing to calcium deficiency."
As for the comment cat food is for cat if that was so than many exotic animals would die. Unfortunately for most animals there are not food produce for them unless they become popular enough to create a market for it. For example hedgehogs when they first arrived in the country had not food produced for them but cat food worked even know they are insectivore. Another example I raise frogs which when tadpoles fish food works very well although it is not produce for them. The thing is that as new animals enter the pet trade diet is mostly done by trial and error but you work with what you have and if you have a predator animal’s cat food is logic.
Thanks

[beanersmysav]

Originally posted by dennis.epp
Cat and dogs are still some of the most popular pets and therefore much more is done to ensure a healthy captive life, especially with food.

I've read many articles on this subject lately and would say you're 100% wrong! Vets and scientists believe that the average lifespan of a dog should be atleast 30 and 40 for cats. They believe the reason for the short life span is the food / and amount we feed to our animals. There are only 2 true vet reccomended dog foods on the market, I will find out the names in a second but I know Science Diet, Purina and other the other expensive grocery store name brands are not even close to being reccomended. Some dog foods contain a chemical often used in the euthanization of dogs, which they contract by infected horse meat they use for dog food. Believe it or not they don't use high grade foods for dogs like they do for humans, they give them the stuff humans can't legally eat by government standards. This leads to deficincy in thyroids, liver, heart, bones etc.

[dennis.epp]

Yes, but how much of that food being feed is table scraps and other "human" food which are not good for your animals. As well you have stated to much is being feed which is being seen with humans the population is becoming heavier and with increase weight you have a number of illnesses that come with it. I would like to read the articles. Also I could find just as many scientist and vet who would disagree with you and say that pet food are good. Not saying that any one side is right but I cannot believe that with all the cat and dog breeders, vets, and scientist out there which are way more than for reptiles or any other type of pet, we are feeding our cat and dogs stuff that is not good for them. We can get basically any medical treatement for them from cancer to heart as we can for us but we do not have good food. Again I am not saying that there are not any brands that are not good but I positive that they are not all bad. All you have to do is look at wolves and wild cat which dog and cat originated from and see that there life span is mostly less than any domesticated animals. Then on top of this you have to understand that purebred usually have a shorter life span among a number of other health problems simply due to the fact that they are inbreed to get the pure breed. You must also understand that there systems can handle animals parts which we cannot. Wild dogs and cats are known for leaving left over for later which can be days were it becomes infected with a great number of things with no effect to them.

[SHvar]

Of a whole animal diet, and from a dogfood cat food diet, remember that feeding dogfood and cat food to monitors is nothing new its been done since monitors have been kept in captivity and dogfood catfood has been available. Those who have fed their animals dogfood and catfood have failed for many years, those animals dont live long, they die from liver failure, and other health problems. Those who have used the whole animal diet have provided us with the results we want, the CBB monitors that are available to all of us today. You can make claims of dogfood and catfood in theory being able to replace whole animals as a diet but you must be able to prove that, not just post figures about vitamins amd minerals, etc and how dogs and cats are kept on it. You must show proof of monitors being kept on those foods and living, growing, thriving, reproducing, etc, otherwise your claims are just that, claims and theories, only those claims and theories have been proven wrong for the past 15 years plus in this hobby by those who do have monitors that actually reproduce.
Someone just asked for pics of monitors that were raised on dogfood catfood based diets or those fed it occaisionally. Ive seen those animals, they are given to reptile rescues if still alive at that point, a good friend does a reptile rescue, as well another does a wildlife rehabilitation which recieved at least 6-12 or more unwanted monitors evary year. Those animals that the former owners admit to them being fed dog or cat food as a basis are usually suffering, sickly, undernourished, or some very obese, many dieing (some of this can be solved by better caging, heat, and substrate, but diet is a part of the whole proper husbandry circle). Many of these animals survive as they are immediately placed in better conditions and switched to a diet of rodents, chicken peeps, and roaches. In a matter of weeks to months the former owner can not even recognize that animal because of the improvements.
You see this is why I say that people who are new to keeping monitors many times ask about feeding dogfood/catfood to them, then they quote petstore monitor books about the reasons for doing so and defend it, only they have no way to defend it, as the results of that route were in a long time ago, and those who have seen this avoid that route and hope that others do so to. But they are your monitors, if you want to make them suffer and die young then by all means do so, after all they are not mine, Ill continue with what works. Have a nice day.

[dennis.epp]

Thanks for the response SHvar. I just had problem accepting the fact that everybody was doing there dog and cat harm by feeding them the food that is produced for them. I can accept that it is not good for monitors I just need more than people simply saying that it is not (some people say things just because other do with nothing to back it up and it turn out to not be true) and it not even good for cat and I was not planning on making it a major part of my monitor diet. Currently they are just babies and are mostly feed crickets, silk worm (which they love and I hope is good for them), and meal worms. The cat food was a one time thing which I was only planning of feeding once a week to add more protein and other stuff to the diet but before doing this I want to check the experience peopel had with it. I have since learned that most commercial cat food are "formulated to produce the excretion of acid...which increases calcium excretion... predisposing to calcium deficiency." and therefore really know why not to feed it.
Thanks

[V.hb]

there is alot of ash in cat food, and dog food.... to my knowledge it's very hard on any reptiles digestion.

[beanersmysav]

Sorry for taking so long to reply but I've been looking for those same articles I've read by many different vets, breeders, and hobbyist most went unfound but I found a great deal of evidence supporting the same things.
http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/jesse.htm (very good first paragraph quote from a respected DVM read his book and others from DVM's)
http://www.caberfeidh.com/Truth.htm
http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/petfood1.html
http://www.preciouspets.org/truth.htm
http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/Spring04/Perhach/PetFood/Contents.htm

I could go on ALL day but it's a simple fact commercial industries don't give two *****'s about or animals. Thats like saying oh they reccomend carpeting for monitors so it must be ok to use right? Or some books say feed Blue Tongueds a 75% cat food diet? So that must be right. The same can be said about 60-70% of human foods. Alls I can say is you say they are just claims and what not but why don't you speak to vets yourself, read some books on the subject and see what real DVM's, and experts have to say on the subject. Find out why big time breeders don't go out and buy their dogs IAMS or Heartguard, Science Diet all that "good", "nutritional", "well supplemented" food. You can read 10's of thousands of articles on how bad dog and cat food really is. And take it however you'd like but the only dogs I've had die under the age of 18-19 are those hit by cars when I was younger because my familys never really trusted commercial dog foods, and on that list entails beagles, great danes, rotti's, animals that don't usually live to be that old.

[beanersmysav]

http://www.petcaretips.net/lifesabundance_dogfood.html ALSO THIS IS A MUST READ! I've read in many spots that many commercial dog foods tested positive for pento-barbitol

Read through it let me know what you think. And you'd be surprised that a good 30% of dog foods on the market tested positive for it I'm still hunting for those articles and the food charts showing only 1 reccomended dog food not 2 like I previously states being OK for dogs but nothing like a real diet can give them.

[beanersmysav]

Or acctually this ones better it's an official fda document www.fda.gov/cvm/efoi/DFreport.doc

You wanted proof I'm giving you what I can this is probably the best read of them all since it's straight from the FDA and their tests.

[coldblooded]

Can you really believe the FDA????



j/k I love when people ask a question when they think they already know the answer...

makes for good reading.


Mike

[beanersmysav]

The FDA is always changing their mind but if they say there's a chemical they found in it I have to believe them in that sense. But I think the FDA for the most part is semi garbage although we have far less cases of mad cow (crutz-jacobs disease) SP? in the US than alot of other European and Asian countries

[Rikki]

Its called CAT food for a reason, not Reptile Food. Take care of your reptiles, feeding them food they are not designed to handle is not good ownership :)

[dennis.epp]

I have look at some of the links and I agree that there are some bad stuff out there but again there are some things I disagree with. First some of the links are for other "natural" food which I have a problem because to sell there product they tend to generalize and make it apear that all "other" food are bad so that more people buy theirs. Second problem I have is that they state that diseased, sick animals are used but if you look at wolves or a number of other predators those are usually the animals they pic because they are easier to kill as well wolves are see as benifitial to deer and other preys species because they do that. Also most diseases are species specific and will not spread to another species especially very different species link from deer to wolves The links also talk about certain parts like brains, necks, livers, lungs, hearts being used but most predators eat these parts naturally any how so why is it a problem. They also talk about road kill being used and again what is so bad about that many animals feed off of road kill Even if it is a few days old many species still naturally eat it. One thing I do have the problem with an agree with you is the chemicals added to many things which is even seen with a number of human food. I also found it interesting about soy which I did not know. The cat food I use protein is chicken and it was recamended by our vet because I cat is allergic to corn.
As for the less number of mad cow being found in the US that is simple the number of animals tested in the US is fare less than here in Canada and many other countries. Therefore the less you test the less you find.
For Rikki I know it is called CAT food but just like monitors cat naturaly ate very similar food which was my reason for posting this to see if it could be handle by them.
Look Theoretically if cat food was what it was suppost to be real meat and all that good stuff and we knew what was in it than there wouldn't be a problem feeding it to monitors or a number of other meat eating reptiles.

[beanersmysav]

I said or CJD which is what humans get from eating an infected cow. Which is what I worry about with dog foods as well since they tend to use sick, diseased cattle whose to say they dont throw some mad cow cows into the mix and our dogs get it and can like wise catch mad cow.

[beanersmysav]

Also most reptiles in the wild don't live as long due to poor diets, whose to say if we had a captive wolf on a healthy diet they wouldn't live twice as long.

[dennis.epp]

But wolves in captivity do live longer and they are often feed dog food and road kill. And for wild reptiles I wouldn't say that it is the diet that causes the shorter live span because that is what they evolved to eat or else they wouldn't eat it with the exception of chemicals passed into the envrionment. I would say that more of the reason why reptiles live shorter lives in the wild would be more due to predators, loss of habitat, inter and intra species compitition, as well as many other environmental factors and not diet because if it was diet why do we try to match an animals diet in the wild in captivity.

[ATBlover]

this has gotten out of hand..all she/he(sry) wanted to know was if they could eat cat food....THE ANSWER IS NO...so let her go on with that bit of info and feed her ackies what they need to be fed!......By the way where did you get your ackies?

[Rikki]

Why even risk it?

[SHvar]

With few exceptions the biggest and oldest examples have so far been found in the wild.
Monitor husbandry up until the last 15 years or so has been very very crude and lousey. In the last 15 years or so the best advances in monitor husbandry have been put together in the US by a few keepers who have bred many species consistantly.
The oldest ackies are the original red ackie pair from Goannaranch the male is now over 15 years old, and one of the oldest monitors in captivity is "George" a lace monitor at Goannaranch who is over 23 years of age.
As a matter of fact, 99.999% of monitors in captivity dont live to see a 1 year in the average keepers care, very unfortunate, but this is why proper husbandry is preached so strongly by those of us who have seen many mistakes and buried a few by doing the same things the average keeper always does.
The biggest number of wild monitors die from cannibalism, predators, drought, starvation, disease, etc. Food is not what causes them to die in the wild, but in the wild they eat as an average whatever is available with the highest return, and the least effort, not what is best in nutrition.

[beanersmysav]

Wow most monitors don't live past the first year?! That's insane, at first all the bad literature I read about 4 years ago helped me to painfully neglect my monitor other than the fact it was well feed, proper enclosure, and semi proper heat (105 bask hottest), but humidity and stuff wasn't right. Pretty rewarding knowning I was 14 back then and could keep a monitor alive who is now 5 :-d

[Rikki]

Thats what I think as well, they are quite easy to take care of, though those people who feed monitors cat food and crazy things like that (:P) are usually the ones who do not have monitors live past the first year....

[dennis.epp]

I am a coop student at a federal research station in Lethbridge Alberta Canada and I have found out some new things by talking to some of the scientist working there. Pet foods are federally regulated in Canada and must have the ingredients on them. The main problems being to watch were the proteins are coming form with many pet foods the proteins are mostly grain based. All animals with sickness which could potentially posse a treat to other species are removed from the food chain in that they are incinerated. Therefore any animals that tested positive for such a disease like mad cow or something by law has to completely removed from the food chain which mean it could not be used for pet food of any kind.
My monitors are above the age of 1 year and have even been seen breeding and I should have eggs soon, which I do not know but I think that animals breeding usually indicates good health. I got them from the Calgary Reptile Show where exactly they originate I do not know.

[Rikki]

When will you ever learn :P

Stuff like this builds up over time man. You have seen many people here say not to do it when you asked about though you continue to say your doing fine, you posted this topic obviously because you had your doubts and you should have doubts.

Cat food is loaded with fat and not designed for monitors, or any other reptiles. Its called CAT food, please try to remember that. You have received advice from some of the most experienced reptile keepers in the hobby telling you not to feed CAT food to REPTILES, and yet you stick to your ways.... You will soon find out what tole this will take on your reptiles, please remember REPTILES.

[dennis.epp]

I just wanted to say that yes I posted this because I have doubts but a simple "it called cat food for a reason" and no does not help me I need to now why not there has not been any reason given. I have a problem with people generallizing things like Rikki you have done by saying that it is loaded with fat BUT NOT ALL OF THEM ARE THAT WAY. I just get the feeling that everybody think I am inexperienced and do not know what i am doing. I have been raising all types of exotic animals all my life. I have a degree in wildlife management, and have since finished my degree in Conservation Biology and now am doing a 8month coop term at the Lethbrige Reasearch Station studing and working on cattle diets. When I was talking about can cat food I was talking about the high quality stuff made from real meat which is printed on the lable and if you removed the lable it would simply be meat in a can with some vitamine and minerals added. My reason for going on is that I would like to find better way to feed my animals and if this mean to create my own than I will but I must know why some do not work. All research is done by trial and error, I accept people experienceses but by generalizing everything it does not help in that one type of food could be bad simply because of an ingredient found in it but when removed the food could be perfect and that is all I was trying to find out. Just because a diet is working or at least appears to be working does not mean we should not try an improve it more.
Although new thing are being found reptiles are one of the least area researched and I would like to change that and that is why I ask the question because who better to ask then the people breeding them. But I need actual experiences, because it is possible for things just to be roomers. For example I breed both veild and panther chameleons and when I first got into them I was told by all these other breeders and books that they need moving water to get them to drink and this is still being told today but it is not true all my chameleons drink out of dishes which was not hard to get them to do. Again I do appreciate the advice I am getting from the experienced keeper and thank you but I am trying to get all that I can.

[Rikki]

I do not doubt you have been in the hobby for many years. We have provided you with informative replies on why not to feed cat food to reptiles. As you saud not all cat food are loaded with fat, much of the cat food "not loaded with fat" was formated on a herbivore diet, something reptiles cannot indure! A local pet store of mine obtained a nile monitor in the past which was just over 4ft, the monitor was originally fed a diet of live foods and did great. The store decided to feed the monitor cat and dog food mixed with live foods, later the monitor passed away. I was close with the owner of the store and this is how I obtained this information and experience. It obviously does horrible things to reptiles over time. I am not a person who knows alot about the protein percentages, and such reptiles and cats need. Though you must understand this food was obviously not designed for a reptiles body, rather a cats. Take time to search over google, ready a few books, and experienced reptile keeper will tell you not to feed reptiles cat food..... I have read so many times what I have just stated in books of well know authors...

[SHvar]

The dyes, excess of some vitamins, lack of others, and other chemical additives that the ingredients label doesnt state as it is not made for human consumption, they dont have to follow the laws. Those dyes have already proven detrimental to snakes from rodent feeders fed dog food etc. Those dyes are processed faster in a mammals liver but still build up. They are too much for a reptiles liver, now I couldnt tell you for sure without a vet doing a necropsy of that nile, that that is what did it, monitors have much higher metabolisms than snakes, in the case of a hedgehog as a mammal representative, a monitors metabolism is higher under the correct conditions.

[Rikki]

Very well said! :)

[kevyn]

I found this link on KS. It's a little Q&A with Daniel Bennett. This should clear up the whole cat/dog food for monitors question.

http://www.kingsnake.com/articles/Kingsnake/DanielBennett.html

[Tim and Julie B]

You can save a whole lot of money on cat food by just feeding the monitor the cat. :D