Help!! Advice Needed Asap

[herpers2]

Hello everyone. We really need some advice. We purchased a home in Elliot Lake, located in northern ontario. We moved into a condo corporation, a townhouse (Big mistake). Before we bought our home, we made sure there were no restrictions on keeping reptiles, and there was not any by-laws against keeping reptiles in the corporation, or in the city of Elliot Lake. We had been living in our home for about a month, and our neighbour right across from us was looking through her second floor window into ours, and saw some of our cages. Among other things there was a petition passed around to enact a by-law against the keeping of reptiles, and we did not find out of this petition until a meeting was held to discuss the issue. Apparently everyone else in our condo corp, (which has about 100 homes) was shown it but us.
At this meeting we agreed to remove our animals, but we would have to wait until the weather warmed up to do it (around May). They refused, and voted against us keeping our reptiles, and a by-law was enacted by the CONDO CORP.The city of Elliot Lake passed a by-law about 2 weeks later. We were told that the Grandfathering Law would be upheld by the city, but the condo corp says we would NOT be covered under the Grandfather Act. They have now given us until Febuary 4th to get them out. Our weather here is freezing, and to transport our reptiles in this cold would mean they will, if not die, become sick. We tried to explain that it was too cold to move them at the meeting, but they refused to listen. We have gravid snakes at home. We also have 2 big dogs at home, whom the neighbors next door obviously do not like. We have had, on numerous occasions complaints about them. We have contacted a lawyer who has told us that the only thing he could do is buy us time. Does anyone have some advice, legal or not? It would be greatly appreciated to hear from you on this matter. Thank you for reading, Kristy and Frank

[wetlander]

I'm very sorry to hear about this. Peoples pass these laws and rules out of ignorance about herps. I hope everything works out, keep us posted. Looking at your list I really see why you are worried about moving them in the cold. Those amazons really won't do well.

How about the humane society? Could they provide an arguement that it would be considered cruelty to animals to force you to move them before spring?

[gargoyle]

First thing I'd do is contact another lawyer! To me this sounds like a bunch of fear mongers being prejudice! Unfortunately they will most likely win a court battle as the court system is not well educated in these issues either (from personal experience). If finding another lawyer is out of the question, at least let him buy you that time and see how long you can drag it on for. In the mean time try to educate as many people in the complex and the comunity on the issues at hand! In my experience most people don't understand that these animals are not dangerous or venomous. Most people think snake=venom....

You've got some huge hurdles to overcome here! I went through similar issues about seven years ago and decided that moving to a new community was my only option!

[beanersmysav]

If it were in the states you'd be grandfathered in. There, no clue. But I believe you should fight it. Get animal right groups involved I'm sure you'll have plenty of help if you want it.

[bcbob]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by herpers2
Before we bought our home, we made sure there were no restrictions on keeping reptiles, and there was not any by-laws against keeping reptiles in the corporation, or in the city of Elliot Lake.

^^Geez, I wish I had a magic answer, but I ask what happened to the fact that you were told that you COULD keep reptiles? WHY are these busybodies concerned over enclosed animals anyway? It's NOT in their house. I'd talk to a different lawyer or 2 or 3 to get a few more opinions. You're NOT being treated justly from what you've written imo. Whatever the outcome, it's a noble battle lol!

It should be part of the "disclosure" statement that your neighbours are unpleasant, shouldn't it? My neighbours run an "escort service". Great models for my 9 yr. old son.

bob

[justinO]

well, the Ontario landlord and tennant act says basically that you can keep whatever you ahve, its illegal for them to tell you to get rid of them.. not sure about the laws regarding municipal by-laws changing on you thou.

best of luck with your battle! keep us posted.

[latazyo]

why can't you just put them in styro to move them? asi fthey were being shipped...I live in North Dakota and move animals around all the time in winter with no ill effects, its just as cold here

that is how I transport them...there should be no reason they'll get sick

where are you moving them?

[Mark]

if it was me i'd talk to another lawyer. If nothing else I'd keep them until they fined me and then bring it to court if they want to go that far.

good luck.

[theweezel]

Definately talk to another lawyer. Your animals were purchased before the said by-law so you should be grandfathered. Also try to get a petition going and present it to the municipalities.

If all else fails go after something that your neighbours enjoy. Maybe children, or (they seem like uppity people) volvos.

Good Luck

[dave68]

I say get them out of sight of the windows, keep the dogs in or at least well behaved and wait it out!

Dave

[herpers2]

Thanks to all who replied so far, we will be talking to another lawyer . Gargole you're right about fear mogering they've said we've got a room full of vipers that eat 150 rats in a feeding!!and that the amazon tree boas are dangerous,our lawyer also said we would be fighting a losing battle.l Wetlander we called the humane society today still waiting for them to get back to us.We are suppose to be Grandfathered under Canadian law and we are by the city but not the condo corp and we were told by them and our lawyer that they can make new rules as long as 70% of owners agree.Which was easy for them to do with all the rumors our neighbours started . The only place we can take our animals is Toronto thats 6 hrs away we have gravid snakes that are due to lay eggs in 2 weeks we dont want to take chances and we should not have to move our animals. Thanks again

[Slannesh]

Well the first thing i'd suggest is education.

Since you obviously don't have 150 vipers prove it to them. Invite the condo association board in and show them that the snakes are not only harmless, but in escape proof enclosures. Prove to them that there's no danger and perhaps you'll get a better reaction.

[Ptindy]

I agree with Slannesh. Try that and if it still doesn't work, claim that you have gotten rid of all your snakes and what not. If you know someone ask them if you can keep them there for a bit. By the looks of your collection you'd almost be tempted to rent them their own place ahaha. But seriously, get rid of them for a bit, show them that they are gone if they choose to see. Then, one dark dark night, when everyone is asleep, bring em in! I dunno. I have many herps in my apartment and I'm not suppoesed to have one. Good luck with whichever path you choose. Where is this place? Cause I sure as heck don't want to move there and a warning would be nice.

Mike

[sleddergirl]

I've dealt with a similar situation where I live, petition being circulated without approaching/informing us about it. Due to the fact that my townhouse survey is a co-op (run by the members) and for the most part governed by CMHC and a couple other federations, I simply went at them with the fact that we had our animals when we moved in and at that time there were no by-laws (of the co-op) that prevented it. I also questioned if they had followed "proper procedures" as far as the petition was concerned. Also questioning the motion and the format in which it was submitted helped, as far as the meeting was concerned. I also pointed out that they couldn't (under the Corporations Act) hold a general membership meeting for any reason (least of all for a by-law change) without properly informing all members at least 10 days in advance, if all voting members were not informed of the meeting, any decisions that were made at that meeting are not up-holdable..........

Sorry for the length of this, just my experience.

[wetlander]

The landlord and tenant act does not allow owners to turn down a tenent or force them to get rid of pets period. Not sure how this works for coop. It seems to me that you were open with them when you moved in and they changed the rules afterward. You have a contract, they want to change it (break it). Sems to me that they should let you keep them or pay you moving expenses and $ out of pocket etc. to get you settled at a new home ( I'm not a lawyer but it seems to me your in the right here)

[the_frog_man]

we looked this up and i think (as i remember) if a law is passed agenst a herps after u have them then you can keep them but cant get more




thanx froggy

[Double J]

Do the other tenants wear swastikas on their shoulders by any chance?

[herpers2]

Thanks for all of the support!!
Slannesh: The people here have blinders on, and they refuse to listen to anything we have to say.
Sleddergirl: what do you mean by proper procedures for a petition? I believe that their was sufficient notice for the meeting, but it was held at the beginning of December, so alot of owners were away for the holidays. (Convenient, wasn't it?)
Wetlander: They should pay for EVERYTHING including the stress we have been put through!!
Frogman: We are supposed to be grandfathered under Canadian law (and are by the city). However, the condo corp believes that the grandfathering law does NOT apply to their (condo) rules. They are telling us that grandfathering doesn't apply in our condo corp; ergo they're above Canadian law. They have threatened that if we don't comply with the condo rules (which they call bylaws), They will put a lien on our house, which we own outright, if we refuse to comply with the rules to pay for any legal expenses that occur from this.
Double J: I'll have to keep my eye out for that.... LOL!

[JonD]

Originally posted by Double J
Do the other tenants wear swastikas on their shoulders by any chance?
LoL, no doubt.

Unfortunaly when you are the "witch" in the hunt, trying to convice them otherwise is pointless. Really though, your dog would pose more of a threat to them, yet they are worried about snakes. Isn't Elliot Lake more of a retirement town now? Not to be rude to the elderly, but alot of them have nothing better to do than gossip and spread rumors. They are the worse for that.;)



Jon Dona

[JAdkins2451]

I am not a law expert but there saying that the can go above the grandfathered law. Iam pretty sure that there condo rules cant go above the law. And I know when they started the whole pit bull ban in ont, you could keep what you already had. So wouldnt that be the same with the reptiles. I am sure you could fight it. Goodluck

Jamie

[Nicky]

any updates on you situation? I really hope this turns out well for you, the ignorance of some people is disgusting. I agree with what everyone has said though, I doubt they can go above the law.
Kayla

[Linds]

Wow... I really don't have anything to add, but I would like to wish you all the luck in the world. That's an awful situation :(

[chas*e]

The problem is that when you moved into the co-op there was usually a co-op regulations that you signed without reading it fully..I guess...anyways I hate reading stories like these...It takes only one a-hole to cause grief..I just wish they could get a life

[herpers2]

Just to let everyone know we believe the date has been moved to March 1st, but not 100% sure yet. We'll keep you updated.

[herpers2]

We have now been summonded to appear in court on February 17th, which is next Thursday. They have now included in their application that they want us to get rid of our dogs as well as our reptiles, saying they are vicious and dangerous. The neighbor said our dogs are "fouling the yard and intimidating neighbor attempting to work in their garden" and "fear engender" the neighbors. Does anyone have information about salmonella (and anything else) and snakes? They are trying to prove that all reptiles have them. Any imput would be appreciated. Thanks again Kristy and Frank