View Full Version : Animal-Human Hybrids Spark Controversy
Okay so what you guys think of this?
Im not too sure what to think but the idea of being able to grow spare parts for humans would be an amazing leap in medicine.
Animal-Human Hybrids Spark Controversy
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/01/0125_050125_chimeras.html
latazyo
01-27-05, 10:05 AM
wow, that is fascinating, I can't believe the things they can do with genetics and cell biology
hopefully they are able to find a way to safely and ethically "farm" organs
Paleosuchus
01-27-05, 10:27 AM
If they just left this at trying to create new viable organs, great, man we have come a long way.
But why in world would you want to create a human/rabbit or anything else. What would this prove? What would happen if this creature where to die being it couldnt live on human/animal parts, would you be charged with murder? I dont get what goes through scientists minds, enough is enough. They dont know when to stop. I find this all extremely facinating, but to some extent. This kind of crap needs to stop in my opinion.
latazyo
01-27-05, 11:36 AM
we also used to think that there's no need to study space
beanersmysav
01-27-05, 11:45 AM
I don't think we should create a human but giving people who need spare parts/organs is a good idea, buti f we ever created a human I'd be afaird....very very afraid
varanus69
01-27-05, 01:11 PM
I personally don't think they should go nearly as far as they have in human research, theres to many of us as it is why try to keep more of us around. if these "scientist " want to do something creative and worth while they should take the piebald ball gene and put it into a boa or put the pattern of a killer bee ball on a tegu.. now that would be interesting stuff.
fateamber
01-27-05, 01:16 PM
Yeah, where will it stop, before people was worried about artificial inteligence taking over, now what would happen if they create other animals with human brains, if they was capable of making rats think like humans, that could get dangerous!
The "And at Stanford University in California an experiment might be done later this year to create mice with human brains. " sounds strange.
creating sub humans is just wrong! But as has been said before, the creating organs, for transplants is good, if only they could stop there.
BOAS_N_PYTHONS
01-27-05, 01:25 PM
BOB:
Wow, I heard about this a while back on some shows. Interesting stuff indeed.
I could use a new pair of cheetah legs, since my recent surgeries just can' t run like I used too :D
LOL
Tony
varanus69,
Respectfully, that's an incredibally shallow thing to say...
Tell that to the parents of a 2 year old child that needs a heart transplant due to some form of heart failure...
And I hope that one day you dont find yourself in need of an organ due to disease or accident... should we let ALL sick people just die because there are too many of us around?
I really hope your idea of putting genes into snakes to produce morphs over research to help humans is a joke... /me shakes his head
Darren179
01-27-05, 01:36 PM
Well the "spare parts" effort behind this is not all positives. What happens when this is done, what happens when we reach the next step and we can eliminate death altogether? Nobody wants to die or to see others die. The thing is its a fact of life with life comes death. There isn't and shouldn't be a way around it. As far as subspecies where do you draw the line between A human and an animal? at what point does animal abuse become domestic violence? We are still dealing with pro and anti abortion groups who have been arguing it for years, at which point is it murder? I just dont think civilization is ready to bring in part humans. Not to mention the morals and ethics of the whole thing but that might touch into the politcal,religous stuff.
Okay so why dont we stop searching for cures for cancer? Why dont we just stop searching for cures for HIV and other diseases?
IN fact.. next time you are very sick... why go see a doctor? Let nature take its course ;)
But on the flip side of that, how about tomorrow a cure for EVERYTHING exsists? That would also be the short trip to our own extinction in a way.
Marisa
I know what you are saying Marisa, but honestly.. I think our extinction is in the cards one way or another anyhow.. just like all spieces... The earth will not be habitable forever...
Seriously... how can one be a compassionate human and turn your back to someone in need and not try anything in your power to help...
I mean cummon, how many of you take your sick herps to a vet? How many would consider it irresponsible/neglect to not help a sick animal?
It amazes me how quickly we will scream animal abuse / neglect, yet we are so quick to turn away from our own species :)
I really think allot of the rationale here is based out of fear of the unknown (allot of "what if's"), something I really dont like.. its such a midevil way of thinking.
Well, you guys know how I feel.. Im gunna sit back and watch how this debate hashes out :)
Nature will do it's job.. it's already paying us back for screwing up the planet so much.. didn't anyone notice the odd amount of hurricanes that hit the southern states, and the more frequent earthquakes? I'm sure everyone noticed the tsunami that happened over the holiday season (if not, are you living under a rock?). Let them mess with nature.. it'll turn around an bit them in the butt. It always does..
ReneeB,
U asume we have had higher than usual numbers of hurricanes and earthquakes? All caused by man? A more likely suggestion would be that weather patterns and tactonic activity is cyclical... over hundreds... thousands even hundreds of thousands of years... you are looking in terms of your life span... which is short term, in comparison to long term cyclical weather / geological changes...(you get your active / inactive periods) (hint, take a peak at what the earth look like millions of years ago)
Can you prove that any of what happened over the last year was due to man's influence? I would respectfully suggest you and anyone else cannot. Its all hearsay...
Woops.. so much for me just sitting back and watchin ;)
latazyo
01-27-05, 02:34 PM
its ok to engage in debate in your own topic
you can make some claims about human influences, but my climatology professor doesn't even believe that we've seen any effects of global warming, but green people sure do, what would he know, he's just got a phD
Very true Latazyo, check out my last post :)
AshleyL
01-27-05, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by marisa
But on the flip side of that, how about tomorrow a cure for EVERYTHING exsists? That would also be the short trip to our own extinction in a way.
Marisa
EXACTLY, as upsetting and harsh as it sounds, we are organisms that are supposed to die. It's really unfortunate when it happens tragically, but it is a necessary thing. There's speculation that in 2050 the life expectancy of humans in first world countried will reach 120 years. that's CRAZY!
IMO, scientists should be working to equalize medical oppotunities around the world, rather than lenghtening the lives of the already extremely fortunate.
I say holding science back is also a mistake...spare parts will soon be available with samples of existing DNA from the specific part needed....great idea.....as for building a new human...well we can't handle the ones that are here already. but to hold back scientific development due to ethical or religious reasons never worked in the past why should it work now....go for it
Darren179
01-27-05, 03:40 PM
Shadow, I was not saying that people should not see doctors I just think there should be a defining line between what is saving a life and what is recreating it.
varanus69
01-27-05, 04:22 PM
SHADOW: I understand what your saying ,all i am saying is humans are the only species that has the capability to over populate an area on a continued basis ( rabbits over populate, than there is not enough food and there is a die off or less reproduction for example.)Originally posted by Shad0w
varanus69,
Respectfully, that's an incredibally shallow thing to say...
Tell that to the parents of a 2 year old child that needs a heart transplant due to some form of heart failure...
heart transplant is one thing but would you want your child to be half human and half "creature" just to survive. And i hope all of our children are healthy incase anyone thinks i'm a monster.
[i]And I hope that one day you dont find yourself in need of an organ due to disease or accident... should we let ALL sick people just die because there are too many of us around?[/B]
I live by my own beliefs... i have told my wife that if i am sick or in an accident and messed up real bad that i don't want any heroic measures takin, by that i mean no long term life support ( if i'm not better in a month and docs say it ain't good , pull the plug)
and no organ transplants and stuff. basically if modern medicine or surgury to repair ( not replace) whats messed up than no more will be done.. I personally don't want to be someone thats 110 years old with multiple parts from misc. orhangin on for every last breath.
[i]I really hope your idea of putting genes into snakes to produce morphs over research to help humans is a joke... /me shakes his head [/B]
and yes this was a joke, as i am against that but it would be cool to see what that would look like evan if it was just photoshopped. hope i have not offended you or anyone it was not my intention.
varanus69
01-27-05, 04:24 PM
Darren179 : you pretty much said there word for word the way i feel. lets save lives not recreate them.
"IMO, scientists should be working to equalize medical oppotunities around the world, rather than lenghtening the lives of the already extremely fortunate."
Very good point. Why all this talk about curing this and that, when some people STILL have no access to simple treatments, drugs, AIDS help etc.
Marisa
varanus69,
Its comforting that you clarified your position :) Thank you and I respect your opinions.
No one wants to see their child 1/2 human, but if science can bring about the opportunity where if a child needs a new heart.. and they can grow a new one through donor animals, that is genetically identical to that childs DNA profile... WHY NOT? Imagine, transplant patients that do not need to take multitudes of immuno suppresive drugs... No transplant complications, because that new heart is in essence themselves...
Its not like we are NOT doing transplants as it is... this is just a better way of doing it... with far less complications for the patients...
Marisa,
The idea of equalizing medical opportunities is NOT the job of scientists (they do research)... thats the job of politicians and governments .. and as always.. thats ALL about money... Unfortunately...
It's obviously not their job at providing easier access to things, but it certaintly COULD be their job to create things cheaper, better, and faster.
But in the end they will do what they want. I for one have only one thing to say, and those who read fark.com will get it...."Still no cure for cancer"
:D
Marisa
sneaky_boa
01-27-05, 05:34 PM
OK...enough scientist bashing!! I happen to be one and will have my PhD ina year or so....now for the educated opinion from INSIDE these labs. Firstly..they already did the whole mouse human brain thing a few years back in Japan, except it was human brain cells and a mongolian gerbil (seriously). Next...you are all assuming that what is going on here is creating these creatures for 'spare parts' and what not. These animals are tools in our research...just like transgenic mice help us figure out which genes do what, these 'chimeras' (I hate that term) help us to understand how things are working. Scientists (at least in my lab group) are smart enough to understand the public limitations of these human-animal hybrids, and realistic enough to know that just because we use it as a TOOL in our research does not mean it is for public comsumption (these animals get VERY expensive). Scientists are not these evil mad-minded individuals, we are caring people who are not just ****ing around for the fun of it, but rather to BETTER existence (which includes the development of affordable treatments for EVERYONE). It is highly unlikely that anytime soon we are going to be receiving livers which have been grown inside of pigs (is that REALLY so bad by the way? think of it like surrogate mothers). More than likley we will become more mechanised first...there is more viable research in cyborg technology than human cross-species tissue growth. Please consider the source of you information, much of the research that is going on is dumbed down for public comsumption and you only hear part of the story. And please...enough with the scientist bashing, you will thank us when we are able to rehabilitate your walking when your spinal cord has been severed.
As for this cheaper and better access to medical care...this is not a problem that scientists are creating. We design drugs with cost in mind and pharmaceutical companies gouge the customers. The cost involved in drug development and manufacture is a fraction of what the product is being sold at. And drugs which are developped and are not 'profitable' according to the industry have their productions ceased and their scientists fired. You guys don't know the whole of any of this (and neither do I) so please...think carefully!
And more people continue to use animals as there toys....
sneaky_boa
01-27-05, 05:39 PM
ok...when you have an infection I suggest you not seek out drug treatment as all drugs have been tested on animals. Also don't use cosmetics, drink milk, eat anything with preservatives, paint your walls, have diagnostics for ANY health condition performed, eat any crops which have had pesticides used on them, get braces (all materials were tested on animals), wear any clothing which has been dyed or otherwise processed in any way...the list goes on and on.
Everything fit for human use, consumption and prtability has been tested on animals in one way or another so you best get to living naked in the woods on your own, farming for your self cause unless you do, you are kind of being a hypocrite!
sneaky_boa
01-27-05, 05:40 PM
also be sure not to use any substrates for your reptiles (yes paper towels included cause chemicals in their processing have been tested on animals)
concept3
01-27-05, 05:49 PM
varanus, If i had to be part human part creature too survive by all means put an animal heart in me. I dont care If it came to my kids dying or a couple lab animals anyone who would not pic the animals is a liar.
sneaky_boa
01-27-05, 05:52 PM
Thank you concept3!!!!!
latazyo
01-27-05, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by sneaky_boa
ok...when you have an infection I suggest you not seek out drug treatment as all drugs have been tested on animals. Also don't use cosmetics, drink milk, eat anything with preservatives, paint your walls, have diagnostics for ANY health condition performed, eat any crops which have had pesticides used on them, get braces (all materials were tested on animals), wear any clothing which has been dyed or otherwise processed in any way...the list goes on and on.
Everything fit for human use, consumption and prtability has been tested on animals in one way or another so you best get to living naked in the woods on your own, farming for your self cause unless you do, you are kind of being a hypocrite!
haha...OWNED
well put sneaky_boa...some people don't understand science, don't let it get under your skin
sneaky_boa
Thank you for your input, I totally agree with everything you said!
And I for one back the work you guys do 100%.
Like I said in one of my earlier posts... all this bashing is done out of fear of the unknown... darn medevil way of thinking no?
concept3, Im with ya all the way!
sneaky_boa
01-27-05, 06:30 PM
I just get very frustrated...being that I live and work to make the lives of the sick better.
It's also worthy to note that there are VERY strict guidelines which are tightly enforced regarding the well being and treatment of these lab animals. Under no circumstances are they to experience any level of pain for any amount of time...analgesics are ubiqitously used for all procedures involving more than an injection or taking a blood sample. These animals are precious to us and our research and we realize their use is a privlige...not a right. They are housed in top notch facitlities that make our houses look like crap! I could go on...but I think I got the point across
All I am saying is that nature is going to kick us in the butt really big and really soon for destroying the planet "for the betterment of mankind"
Nature has always balanced itself out.. it's just a matter of time..Natural population control..
Originally posted by Shad0w
ReneeB,
U asume we have had higher than usual numbers of hurricanes and earthquakes? All caused by man? A more likely suggestion would be that weather patterns and tactonic activity is cyclical... over hundreds... thousands even hundreds of thousands of years... you are looking in terms of your life span... which is short term, in comparison to long term cyclical weather / geological changes...(you get your active / inactive periods) (hint, take a peak at what the earth look like millions of years ago)
Can you prove that any of what happened over the last year was due to man's influence? I would respectfully suggest you and anyone else cannot. Its all hearsay...
Woops.. so much for me just sitting back and watchin ;)
ReneeB,
Do you speak on the topic as an expert?
How will "NATURE" kick us in the butt?
How do you know it will be soon?
Can you provide evidence or proof?
Im just trying to get a better idea where your thoughts are comming from.
Just my opinion based on things I've read in my lifetime. As Originally posted by varanus69
...is humans are the only species that has the capability to over populate an area on a continued basis ( rabbits over populate, than there is not enough food and there is a die off or less reproduction for example.)...
Humans do not control their population naturally. Nature will do it for us, as it does with every other species like it always has. I think it's called the circle of life..
Originally posted by Shad0w
ReneeB,
Do you speak on the topic as an expert?
How will "NATURE" kick us in the butt?
How do you know it will be soon?
Can you provide evidence or proof?
Im just trying to get a better idea where your thoughts are comming from.
Slannesh
01-28-05, 12:32 AM
Couple of comments here.
First off for everyone wishing for faster and cheaper drugs... does the term Vioxx ring a bell? Fast and cheap. Oh yeah, and it also kills people. Opps. Sorry we missed that.
There's a REASON it takes years for the FDA and similar agencies around the world to approve new drugs for human use. New drugs commonly have unexpected side effects that take years to show up. Not to mention that pharmecutical companies like all companies are in business to make money. They made Viagra before they cured cancer, why? There's more money in it.
Now unlike sneaky boa i'm not a PhD student but I do have a very basic understanding of how this sort of thing works as I had to become FDA certified to work on one of the support contracts I used to so I have at least a basic grasp of how all that works. My girlfriend works for a biomedical research company, specifically developing new immunosuppresive drugs for organ transplants. So while I don't get all the science behind it I again at least understand the basic concepts and can see first hand how much work goes into this sort of thing before getting any tangible results.
There's no denying that we've done a lot to bugger up mother earth. But there's also no denying that we have come so much further than any other species that we're currently aware of either, especially in the last 100 years or so. Hell, as I type this i'm using a computer that's thousands of times more powerful than the ones they used to land people on the moon just 36 years ago.
Since the dawn of human civilization there have always been haves and have nots and it's a trend I really don't see ending. Is it fair? Nope, but it's the reality of how things work and probably the end result of being self aware. Some people have more drive to be better than others. Add to that some lucky breaks and being born in the right country at the right time and you get to be a mover and shaker. If not things end up not so pretty.
And Rikki. Are you really gonna start with that PETA BS again man? I'd have thought you learned your lesson the first time :rolleyes:
Darren179
01-28-05, 01:42 AM
I have to agree with renee here. If you have a perfect eco system but lets say there is a perfect eco system but a main predator is whiped out, almost. A smaller herbivore increases in population because there is a less number of predators. Eventually the plant life will not be able to sustain the increased number of animals eating it. If the predators recover then this problem solves itself. If it doesnt eventually the food supply will run out and the herbivores will fall back to a substainable number. Thats mother nature taking its coarse. The earth cannot keep up with the rapid acceleration of the human population. Eventually like it or not we will be balanced out. The earth will be here well after us.
Slannesh
01-28-05, 01:46 AM
Unless of course the herbivores can tinker with the plants to make them grow faster.... play with the water so it's cleaner and has a way to remove their waste and expand into other areas that were previously uninhabited....
you get my point I assume?
Darren179, Thank you.
Slannesh, I see your point, but we as humans populate to quickly even for that..
ReneeB,
How can you possibly say that we populate too quickly period?
Again, are you basing that statement on experience / expertise, or again just a personal opinion?
BOAS_N_PYTHONS
01-28-05, 01:04 PM
BOB:
She is right, we are a busy species.
LOL, :D
Tony
Oh we are a busy species, no doubt, but how can she comment that progress / research cannot keep up with our proliferation? Just wanna understand what her field of expertise is to make such a statement as opposed to voicing an opinion..
BoidKeeper
01-28-05, 01:57 PM
We are our own worst enemy and we just keep proving it every day. We will be the ones responsible for our down fall.
Cheers,
Trevor
Very Easily.. take a look at oh Africa for example, or china, or any other place INCLUDING CANADA where there are homeless, starving, and extremly sick people. It's an obvious case of population VS progress/research. Otherwise, we wouldn't have millions infected with various illnesses like HIV/AIDS, CANCER, etc.
And since you insist on asking.. my field of expertise isn't an issue here. I have simply stated opinions, that I have because of experiences I've had, things I've read, and things I have seen. You stated yours. I did not know anyone that voiced an opinion about something had to be an exper on the subject.
Back to the original topic about human/animal organs.. having lost some of my organs due to cancer, if I was ever asked if I wanted a human/animal organ transplant, I would have to say no. (any of you that know me know how badly the organ loss had effected me, so that should mean something to you) Nature didn't want me to continue my life with those parts, so be it.
Originally posted by Shad0w
Oh we are a busy species, no doubt, but how can she comment that progress / research cannot keep up with our proliferation? Just wanna understand what her field of expertise is to make such a statement as opposed to voicing an opinion..
Darren179,
If the population of prey increases, the population of predators will increase as well, to a certain extent for sure.
However, we as humans have done some nasty things for sure.
Renee,
I dont understand the entire concept of population vs. progress... explain?
Mike
quote: 'by mixing human and animal gametes (sperms and eggs) or transferring reproductive cells, diminishes human dignity. " :rolleyes:
sweet! How open minded...
Guess we should stop all abortions too eh?
ReneeB,
The only reason why I questioned your expertise, was to clarify that those comments you made were just opinions... you were talking in a very matter of fact kinda way.. to me, thats very different from an opinion. :)
Anyhow,
Regarding your other comments about homeless / starving / sick people...
First off, there is more than enough resorces to go around the ENTIRE world... the problem with that is social / economic / political... its all about the MONEY! Not that we do not have the ability to feed everyone, cause I would suggest.. WE DO!...
Regarding disease, how the heck does that have anything to do with population vs progress?
In fact, we have come a VERY far way with cancer and HIV treatments.
In fact, take a look a few hundred years ago.. people were dying of allot more disease than what they are now... ie: bubonic plague, small pox, influenza, simple bacterial infection.... a common cold killed, even child birth killed allot of mothers / babies... do u honestly think we are worse off now than what we were say 200 years ago???
Recall how common it used to be for almost every mother to have lost children during child birth, or a childhood illness... it was the NORM!!! not any more!
Anyhow... I hope you are not getting the impression that Im trying to attack ya, cause Im not... I just love engaging in a good debate... even if I do not agree with your opinion, I respect it.
varanus69
01-29-05, 11:58 AM
[i].. do u honestly think we are worse off now than what we were say 200 years ago???[/B]
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WE are over populated, we rely WAY to much on technology, WE are needy ,greedy, wasteful creatures 200 hundred years ago people lived off the land ( for the most part) now look at us. I'm sure the creator ( assumeing there is one and this i don't want to get into this.) is shaking his head somewhere.. WE are not much better than over sized cochroaches in the global sence, back than we/they lived in harmony with the earth .
[i].. even if I do not agree with your opinion, I respect it. [/B] And i feel the same about your opinion.
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