Keeping Native Species in Ontario *Please Read*

[CamHanna]

Every now and then I see someone trying to sell a native Ontario species in Ontario. Under the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act, 1997 this is not legal and is something that bothers me more than a little.

That said, I don’t have the heart though to report a herp enthusiast who could well be ignorant of the law and under the belief that they are legally selling a legally procured animal. This is simply not the case, it is illegal in Ontario to keep or sell any protected species regardless of the origin of the animal (CB, WC, American or what ever else).

It is important to enforce this law because without it our native animals would be subject to exploitation and populations could be depleted. This is simply not acceptable. So, not wanting to cause anyone too much trouble, I've decided to create this post with the hopes of dispelling any ignorance and limiting the abuse of our native species.

From Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act, 1997 (http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/DBLaws/Statutes/English/97f41_e.htm)
40. (1) A person shall not keep live game wildlife or live specially protected wildlife in captivity except under the authority of a licence and in accordance with the regulations. 1997, c. 41, s. 40 (1).

Specially protected wildlife includes the black ratsnake, a species which is occasionally (and currently on this site) offered for sale in Ontario.

The following reptiles are specially protected in Ontario.
Blue Racer, Eastern Massasauga Rattlesnake, Five-lined Skink, Black Rat Snake, Butler's Garter Snake, Eastern Fox Snake, Eastern Hognose Snake, Eastern Smooth Green Snake, Lake Erie Water Snake, Eastern Milk Snake, Northern Water Snake, Queen Snake, Eastern Spiny Softshell, Blanding's Turtle, Common Map Turtle, Midland Painted Turtle, Common Musk Turtle, Spotted Turtle, Western Painted Turtle, Wood Turtle.

The following amphibians are specially protected in Ontario.
Blanchard's Cricket Frog, Blue-spotted Salamander, Eastern Tiger Salamander, Four-toed Salamander, Jefferson Salamander, Northern Dusky Salamander, Redback Salamander, Smallmouth Salamander, Spotted Salamander, Two-lined Salamander, Fowler's Toad, Gray Treefrog.

A complete account of the legislation can be found here: http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/DBLaws/Statutes/English/97f41_e.htm

Thanks for reading.
Cam

[Gary D.]

Excellent post. and I like your sig.

[chas*e]

I, personally, do not keep any Native Ontario reptile species but I always laugh at the fact that the government of Ontario freaks about a hobbiest,(not a operation that harvests), who keeps a few native species of whatever. How can keeping some native snake in an aquarium at their home be worse for the enviorment or native ecosystem than smashing a 2 lane highway through 200 yr old forested regions....MONEY that is the only language the government understands and you can fool yourself about the "They CARE about the enviorment" all you want....If it was possible to buy a Native snake from them they would sell them by the thousands.......and......how about the spraying of anti-mosquito insectacide(west nile virus prevention) this summer on thousands of acres of forested areas killing everything ...and the 3 mosquitos...they sure care about the delicate enviorment.....lol.....PaLeease

People have to stop believing in what the government says.......
They will shoot you with a machine gun and then give you a band aid and expect a THANK YOU

[Cake]

I always laugh at the fact that the government of Ontario freaks about a hobbiest,(not a operation that harvests), who keeps a few native species of whatever
The reason they freak out is because most of our reptiles and amphibians have declinning populations and do no need the added stress of collection for the pet trade. If you want to keep an animal please make sure that it is CB. The reason it doesn't matter if it is CB or WC is that there is no way to prove where you got the animal from. No breader in their right mind is going to go to the effort of providing paperwork for a E. Hognose (Heterodon platirhinos) to prove that it is not WC. There is simply not enough economic gain to make it worthwhile.

If it was possible to buy a Native snake from them they would sell them by the thousands
Well there is a law in Ontario which prohibits the use of native wildlife for economic gain, so this is a mute point. And this law is the backbone of our conservation stratagies, and what has lead to our greater success over our european counterparts.

How can keeping some native snake in an aquarium at their home be worse for the enviorment or native ecosystem than smashing a 2 lane highway through 200 yr old forested regions
Well I somewhat agree with you on this point, however, there are somethings that can be provented and others that the affects can only be minimalized. We need roadways and there is nothing that can be done about that. However you do not need to keep a native species in an aquarium at home.

I hope that you are no trying to make it seem like it is ok to go out and collect our native species to keep as pets.

[Thrush]

I have to say I agree that we need to protect our native species, but doesn't all this seem somewhat hypocritical? We don't want our country's wildlife captured, but we're willing to collect animals from just about anywhere else for the pet trade. I feel like this is a symptom of a general attitude found in our country. If it doesn't affect us, why should we care. I'm not sure what the answer is, but I just think it's sad.

[Jason Wakelin]

While I agree in principle with the prevailing attitude here. I also firmly believe that if I had not spent my pre-teen and early teen summers collecting, keeping, and subsequently releasing native species, I would not have the interest in the hobby that I do.

I have no idea of the legal status of these practises at that time. But, no one seemed too disturbed that I was collecting tadpoles at local ponds, raising them, and releasing them before fall came. Or about the Garter, Milk, Red Bellied, Brown or Ribbon Snakes that I would keep for a couple of weeks/months. Again releasing them before fall.

I know times have changed and it's not the late 70's/early80's anymore. The environmental pressures the planet and our country face are not getting better. But with the number of DOR snakes, frogs, and turtles I've seen in my life, a 10 -13 year old child keeping a couple of "common" species for a few summer months seems harmless enough. In fact, if nothing else it would seem to foster a interest and respect that may just be of benefit to the environment in the future.

But again, native animals mass collected for sale, I'm totally against. Maybe the laws should not be so "black and white". But there are (and will be) many more arguments against this practice. It's much easier to just say no than consider any type of alternative. And it always seems that the militants (eg. PETA) scream a little louder and are a bit better funded than their liberal brothers and sisters.

Just my two cents, take or leave it, that's your choice.

Jason

[CamHanna]

Gary –
Thank You on both counts.

Chas*e -
I agree that there are far worse things than keeping a native species, but that doesn't make keeping a protected species any more acceptable and in my opinion it should be discouraged.

Cake -
I agree

Thrush -
The vast majority of hobbyist support the CB trade either because they want healthy animals or a healthy environment. Either way, not many consciously support the WC trade.

Jason -
Good points. And actually, until last year the only snakes my parents would allow me to keep were those that I caught myself and was prepared to release should they see fit. There is an exception made to acknowledge such situations:
http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/DBLaws/Statutes/English/97f41_e.htm#P664_41076
(2) Subsection (1) does not apply to, (b) a person who keeps in captivity for the purpose of personal education a single game reptile, game amphibian, specially protected mammal, specially protected reptile, specially protected amphibian or specially protected invertebrate, if it is not designated by the Committee on the Status of Endangered Wildlife in Canada or the Committee on the Status of Species at Risk in Ontario as endangered, threatened, special concern or vulnerable
Cam

[Cake]

It would be ok if only one person collected one individual from the wild, but what happens when 5 people do it, then 50, then 1000. It could very quickly descimate local populations.

Now all this is relative to what species you decide to keep as a pet. For instance, the common american toad (Bufo americanus) is doing fairly well, but the fowlers toad (Bufo fowleri) which look very similar is not and its populations would suffer a great deal more from the loss of one individual. I would seriously doubt that your average 12 year old could tell these two species apart, which do have overlapping ranges.

The most important point to remember is that the loss of one individual for your collection is not a serious threat, but if everyone goes out and does it, the losses to populations grow significantly.

That is why I am against collecting native animals.

Conisdering your point that most of the species that we choose to keep as pets come from other regions. I only keep CB animals and do not condone people keeping WC individuals. The only type of collecting from natural populations that I condone are thoose done for scientific purposes, and if they are done following strict management protocalls and if proper study has been done on the local population demographics to ensure that the population will be able to rebound after collection.

[Cake]

I also think this is a great thread to raise awareness and provide some good sound education about the laws and the science behind the laws.
Great Idea Cam

[Jason Wakelin]

Cake,

Most of the animals I currently keep are captive bred and hatched/born. And I only have that luxury because of those before myself who took the time to work with and figure out how to breed and raise these animals. I am also indebted to others who also worked with wild caught animals of the same species to keep the bloodlines varied, strong, and viable.

By your reasoning we should not be keeping any herps at all. As no more wild caught bloodlines would come into the hobby with your standards. Therefore those lines in captivity that do not have an incredibly varied history (very few at the moment), would be left to become hopelessly inbred and eventually die out.

In addition you would be sentencing the herp community to only work with the species available at the current time. I work with Rhacophorus nigropalmatus (Gliding Treefrogs), there are no captive hatched available (that I've ever seen, yet....). It sounds like with your plan there never would be any available. Not only would I be deprived of the exciting opportunity of working towards establishing this magnificent frog into our collective hobby, but future generations would also be denied.

Yestarday I posted a "long winded" monologue on how far the hobby has progressed. The post is based on a monograph detailing longevity of Reptiles and Amphibians in North American collections. The vast majority of the animals (+/- 98%) at the time were wild caught. If your type of reasoning was prevalent at that time (1975) we would today be restricted to very few (very inbred) species in captivity.

Again, I am against the mass collection of wild caught animals for the pet industry, or any other industry for that matter. And because of this I try to avoid wholesale operations if I possibly can. But I also believe without a certain (small) amount of wild harvest our captive animals are doomed to a horrible restrictive and inbred future. Also the whole what if 5, 50, 1000 people do it (collecting), our hobby is too much on the "fringe" of society for this to be a major issue (IMHO). Besides, rarely in life have I met any type of hobbiest that has the passion for their hobby like herpers do. The majority of us out there are compassionate not only for our charges but also for their natural environment(s).

Thanks for the soapbox, I'll now step down,
Jason

[Cake]

In no way am I sentencing our hobby to death. My main point is that collecting from the wild is not a viable long term practice for private collection. I do agree with you that there is a certain level of collecting that is neccessary, to support our hobby and for scientific purposes. As long as it is done in a responsible and educated manner. The only type of collecting from natural populations that I condone are thoose done for scientific purposes, and if they are done following strict management protocalls and if proper study has been done on the local population demographics to ensure that the population will be able to rebound after collection.

I am however against informing people that it is ok to go out, pick up whatever you see and take it home and put it in an aquarium, under the impression of "as long as im the only one doing it, there is no problem". I can personally ateast to this as I have seen on numerous occaisons people taking turtles, frogs, and toads home to put in their backyard ponds, in Algonquin P.P. and other Provincial Parks. I have approached many of these people and been able to explain that this is not a good idea, and they usually understand and release them back. There are also countless examples of the exploitation of reptiles and amphibians for the pet trade, To name a few, the Tomato frog of madagascar, The gastric brooding frog (Rheobatrachus silus)of australia, and lastly close to home the wood turtle (Glyptemys insculpta). There are many many more examples of the pet trade having a detrimental effect on natural populations, and this is why I caution people against collecting from natural populations.

I am not educated on the status of Rhacophorus nigropalmatus so I cannot comment on whether or not collecting them is having a detrimental impact on their natural populations. I would assume however that before you removed any you understood the population demographics, and sampled in a controlled manner, at the age class that has the minimal impact on the mature population. As well as contacting local authorities to ensure that there was no legal protection afforded to these animals. If you have done so, then there is no problem with what you have done, and I wish you luck with your captive breeding program.

[chas*e]

I never said that one should go out and collect native species of anything.....I just said that the act of "hobby" collecting reptiles or whatever, is never really going to descimate local populations, because unless one does it for the money how many animals are really caught....the "what if 1000 people did it', is just not a reality. How many people do you meet out in the bush when you are herping? I have always believed that every hobbyist/herpetologist started out as a kid collecting and educating themselves in this hobby...This practice most likely was the reason people care about the eco-system and enviorment in the first place.
As for the comment on selling the animals by the thousands...I said THEY-(the Government) would sell them by the thousands if they could...if you are going to comment on anything I write ..please read it first..it was meant as a sarcastic remark......thanks.
ps ..and if you do go out into the bush to herp ..why bring anything home anyways...leave it alone ...take a picture it is less trouble ....and make sure you are with an adult..

[Jeff Hathaway]

Well, I'm quite sure that the government could find a way to sell us thousands of animals if they really wanted to. Actually, they don't. They have no need; they can simply tax us to get the money as they see fit.

As a basic rule, wildlife belongs to the people of Ontario. All of us. The public. For someone to take something home and keep it privately, they need the permission of the government, which has been elected by the people to manage things for us. So you buy a fishing license, a hunting license, etc. to reimburse the public for your use of the resource, and to cover the management costs involved.

The government rarely 'freaks out' about someone having a herp at home in their basement, except perhaps if it is a particularly rare species. Usually they are simply told to let it go back where they found it. However, in some cases charges are laid where it is felt that it is justified. Please keep in mind the exemption for someone to have a single specimen of a SP herp without a permit was included in the act so that kids keeping such things wouldn't be breaking the law. This exemption has since been removed for species at risk (such as black rat snakes) but it is still incredibly unlikely that a conservation officer would lay a charge against a 12 year old who found one at his cottage and kept it for a month.

Garters, by the way, are not on the SP list, and you can possess them without any permits. Technically though, you aren't supposed to collect them without a small game hunting license, but that's another issue altogether.

Where the government, and many of us, do get very sensitive, is when animals are being *sold* because that can create a monetary incentive to remove them from the environment.

Certainly, one person keeping a red-backed salamander at home isn't going to wipe out red-backed salamanders. Even a thousand people doing this aren't likely to have any significant effect. For this reason I don't like having red-backed salamanders on the SP list, but the main idea here was to prevent them from being collected and sold as bait. However, some species are very sensitive to collection- especially all turtles, and some of the longer lived snakes. The removal of small numbers of adults, over time, can actually wipe out a population, or contribute to reducing it below a level where it cannot recover from. In Ontario, the gravest concerns for this are for wood turtles and spotted turtles, as they tend to occur in small isolated populations which can be exploited by someone who is knowledgeable enough and uncaring enough to do so.

Well, enough for now...

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[dave68]

enough on the politics already

Dave

[chas*e]

True enough Jeff-o

[GaryB]

First of all I want to say that some of you are hipocrits. I am fairly new to the site, but not to herping. I have to say from some of the posts I've read especially on the herping forum, it sounds like some of you, when you go out herping are hunting for these reptiles, and what about some of the people who grab at these herps, and are seen holding them, you think that your germs from your hands well harm certain herps. how do u know that the snake won't die after you release it. And these people taking pictures, and I know I am guilty of it, moving stuff around and destroying there home, to get a good picture. And don't get me started on the government, who r they to say what we can and cannot do. Least I agree with Jeff, that wildlife belongs to the people of ontario. And from what I understand you can keep certain species, snappers, gartners. who cares what people collect, or what they do. Some people collect all kinds of things, potatoe chips, cards. Having a few reptiles, maybe better than them getting eaten in soup. Thats my opinion.

[rattekonigin]

I have to say, I'm quite surprised by the ignorance to conservation issues displayed by some people in this thread. The point of the laws is not to prevent some little kid collecting a garter snake, it's to prevent exploitation of native species, many of which are in decline already and don't need the added pressure of collection. The law has to be "black and white" because there'll always be some people looking to make a profit at the expense of the animals/environment who will just bend or break the rules/regulations.

Collection from developing countries is no better, but OUR government can't do anything about other nations' internal policies. What WE can do, as a community of hobbyists, is to avoid buying wild caught animals from anywhere and, instead, support the sustainable pet trade through captive breeding. Sure, somebody at some time had to have gone out and caught the original animals from which our pets came. But, again, that's not the point. The point is that we've already done enough damage to the environment and we now KNOW BETTER.

People can bash PETA all they want (and I'm not saying I support their tactics or their militant views) but at least they are trying to do something to benefit animals and the environment. How many of you can say the same?

As for the whole germs comment... Humans are mammals, reptiles and amphibians are not. There are very few diseases we can pass on to them, by virtue of the fact that they have very different physiologies from us. So, handling a reptile and letting it go is not likely to introduce some kind of pathogen to the wild population.

Potato chips and baseball cards aren't living things. Apples and oranges.

[gargoyle]

I agree in the most part with the legal part of this thread, but (ya call me a hipocrite) haveing worked for the Ministry of Natural Resources of Ontario for four years in the 90's I know first hand that they should be focusing more on other herp related incidents. For example in the course of a week, I saw a Conservation officer give a $200 fine to a teen for picking up a painted turtle, then later in the week I watched the same C.O. give a warning to a grown man that beat a Eastern Fox snake to death with a shovel because it was close to his camp site, no other reason..........where is the law in this.....after this I lost faith in the laws written my the MNRO and the people that enforce them. You can try but you'll never be able to tell me that keeping a Eastern Fox snake to show to your kids is worse than killing one for fun. I do agree that there should be no "commercial collection" of our native reptiles as they are in decline. If the laws are only enforced when the C.O. feels he wants to then that doesn't do anything either! Just my opinions from my personal experience.. I'm not a big government supporter in any sense and I hope I'm never accused of being one either!

[chas*e]

Be good, don't make waves , keep quiet, pay taxes(all of them), inform on your friends who break any law, obey city/regional by-laws, your Goverment loves you and wants to keep you safe to buy their drugs, cigs and to gamble.....remember that...

[wetlander]

You can try but you'll never be able to tell me that keeping a Eastern Fox snake to show to your kids is worse than killing one for fun.

Actually it may not seem as bad, but when you remove an individual from the population it is scientifically equal to being dead. The snake can't reproduce and therefore is not able to pass on its genes, or replace itself. Releasing the individual in the fall may actually cause the snake to die. Many snakes return to hibernacula. Removing the snake from the wild may disorient the snake so that it cannot find its winter shelter even if released at the same location. This has been found to be true with Massassaugas. Moving these snakes 300 metres can result in their death.

Most of us have probably kept native herps as pets at some point in our lives, especially as kids when we don't know any better. But I think most us would like to protect native populations and keep diseases out of our collections. Although I don't support the keeping of Native species, I would not report someone for keeping a garter snake, ringneck, redbelly or Dekay's Snake. I would report any native species I saw being sold no matter how common it is. Keping something for educational purposes is one thing but reaping financial gain from illegal wildlife I won't support

PS Most of us field herpers break the law when ever we go out. The laws don't just stop you from keeping them, but they also state that you should not disturb. If you get too close to photograph, pick it up, or in any other way intentionally bother them then technically you are breaking the law. The question is, at what point will the Conservation Officers actually step in and charge you.