Nurseries

[HeatherRose]

Can everyone post pictures of their chameleon nursery cages, or at least help me out with a description of one that works? I'm in the process of preparing to *think* about starting to put together one myself, and am having some trouble with it. :p

Thanks in advance!

[roocat71]

Check out this article in the current issue - "- Experiences in Raising Baby Chameleons: Franco Gagliardi". This is how I setup baby cham enclosures.

-roo

http://www.chameleonnews.com/

[Double J]

Here is a rundown of the setup I have used for years:

I have generally used ten gallon tanks, of course with screen tops. I have paper towel on the bottom, which is changed every few days. I have always moistened the tank bottom to get the paper towelling to "stick"..... as this prevents crickets from getting underneath.
For climbing apparatus, I have used incredibly thin twigs and fake dollar store plants with very think stalks.
I tend to keep the numbers around 5-7 juveniles per tank... and that said, the tank is densely "planted," and that density of chams is really only for a month or so, as by that time they are wholesaled for the most part.
Though the ten gallon tank is likely to get a questionable response from others as glass tends to be against current dogma, this nursery setup has worked wonderfully for me for years, and such I have successfully hatched out baby veileds in the neighborhood of 500 animals. Let's not forget also that a 12 inch tall ten gallon tank with a screen top results in fabulous ventilation.. so that is of no concern here.
For holdbacks, I split them up after a month or so, and the setups have been the same. They are out of the ten gallon tanks and into larger, screen enclosures around three months.
As I said, this has worked beautifully for me for years.... and I am currently holding back a female... so if I can find the time after my lectures today (you gotta love Anthropology)... I will post a pic of my nursery tank.

[meow_mix450]

nop your not gonna get any glass comments, its exceptable when it comes to rasising babys in my opinion. My babys are about to hatch any time soon, but i use 5 gallons because they fit my stand. Pretty much my steup is like what roo's link is. I find that those kritter cages cost a lot more then they really need to be. So i went with tanks instead. The only problem that i have not countered yet is how im gonna stop fruit flys from getter out.

Umm ill post pictures after my exams, its killing me right now. SHouldnt even be on here lol o well

Meow

[RDexotics]

I use basically the same set-up everyone else described. Except I built these little things to put under the heat light.

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/7294MVC-054F-med.JPG

I found in the morning, when they'd go to warm up they'd end up crawling all over each other trying to get the best position under the light. This way they just stick to one little branch each and all get a chance to thermo-regulate without the stress of the others climbing on them constantly.

[meow_mix450]

haha!!! isnt that kool. I use to amke those for my bird lol

Meow

[galad]

yea thats all good. But like it expalins in that article on raising nosy be on chameleonnews.

It would be better to raise your chameleons individually. Otherwise how do you know how much each chameleon is eating?

I think The author uses clear plastic rubmaid type bins about 1 foot high and a foot squared. There are a few bundles of fake leaves in there with climbing perches. The bottom has paper towel, and the top is covered with white shade cloth and secured with a rubber band around the edge. They are placed in a rack with a uvb florestent above them. Ambient room temps should be around 80 degrees and anyother heat sorce they need they get from the floresent above.

Again I would sudjest keeping the babies seperate so you can properly monitor how much eachone weighs and eats.

How do you guys determine which chameleon is wich when they are housed together? DOnt they pretty much all look the same?
I havent had babies yet so I dont really know how hard it is to distinguish one from the other.
good luck

peace

ws

[Double J]

Originally posted by galad


It would be better to raise your chameleons individually. Otherwise how do you know how much each chameleon is eating?

......Again I would sudjest keeping the babies seperate so you can properly monitor how much eachone weighs and eats.

How do you guys determine which chameleon is wich when they are housed together? DOnt they pretty much all look the same?
I havent had babies yet so I dont really know how hard it is to distinguish one from the other.
good luck

peace

ws

When you are hatching out 35+ veiled chameleons per clutch and keeping them for over a month...... you realistically cannot house them all individually, especially when if you already have a fair sized collection. That is why I house around 5 per tank. Ideally.. yes, I would house them ndividually if I had the time and money... but my methods have worked quite well for myself and other keepers.. so why change it?

And trust me...... they all eat :D

Double J

[meow_mix450]

good point made, jsut about to say the same thing

Meow

[Manitoban Herps]

If you do not have the space to house 35 babys you shouldn't breed them. i perfer to house my babys seperately, I know I would with my cham if I ever got a female for him.

EDIT - But since they all eat fine and everything good, my above statement doesn't really matter :D

[DragnDrop]

I don't have pictures of the Jacksons nursery, I raised them before I ever thought of getting a digital camera, so all I have is pictures of fuzzy brown things on fuzzier branches. :)

One thing to stress about raising baby chams no matter what species - get thin branches, vines or whatever you use. They need to be able to grab the branch, if it's too thick they just sit 'on top' and can't hold on very well. For an animal that expects to be able to use it's clasping ability, it can be stressful, and babies don't take stresss well at all. I used branches cut from my butterfly bush (B davidii). They don't have rough bark, the branches are thin and there's enough of them to be able to replace with fresh ones as needed. Any flowering shrub branches would work, and chopping off a large chunk works well. You can just plop the whole thing into the enclosure like a tree, giving them a variation of branch sizes.

My Jacksons were always raised in 65 gallon tanks with screen lids, 3 UV-B fluorescent lights spaced over the top. Since they didn't need high temperatures, I didn't need basking lights, the fluorescents provided the correct temperature range. Using a big tank like I did also helps provide a lot of air circulation, no stuffy little tanks or containers, but wide open top (with screen), nothing stuffy there, and misting water dried during the course of the day.

I suspended small plastic tubs of fruit fly media, added the flies to that and let the chams pick them off at will. For variety they got meadow plankton from safe unsprayed areas. These bugs and whatevers would cruise around the branches, the chams sat there and grabbed them as they went past. Having a lot of branches allowed the babies to reach just about every corner of the tank, no bug was beyond reach of their tongues.

There weren't any live plants, just silk leaves and vines. I didn't want the bugs (specially crickets) to eat the leaves, they were supposed to fill up on the gutload I provided for the lucky (?) ones who lived long enough to get hungry.

[Double J]

Originally posted by Manitoban Herps
If you do not have the space to house 35 babys you shouldn't breed them. i perfer to house my babys seperately, I know I would with my cham if I ever got a female for him.

EDIT - But since they all eat fine and everything good, my above statement doesn't really matter :D


Did you even read my original post?

Have you ever bred chameleons?

Next time, make sure you know what you are talking about before you accuse others of improper husbandry. :rolleyes:
I am not the only one here that houses multiple hatchlings per tank on a temporary basis.

[HeatherRose]

Thank you guys for all of your help! They chameleonnews link was especially helpful. I'm still deciding, but a couple of tanks or kritter keepers might be my best option. I think tanks will allow me to give them better lighting and heat, as opposed to kritter keepers. I will use thin sticks for climbing (as Hilde suggested) lined with paper towels. Housing them seperately or together seems to be up for debate. :p

Double J, have you ever witnessed any squabbles or injuries when they're housed together? How long do you keep them together for? My hatchlings will be pardalis, if there's any difference.

It's still a LONG way off yet... but I want to do it right!

[meow_mix450]

Ya double J has a good point, 35 babys running around is a lot. Housing 35 chameleons in 10 gallons or 5 gallons for each one, that will take half of an average room.

Meow

[DragnDrop]

I don't know about pardalis, but the jacksons babies were perfectly okay in one tank (15-20 per clutch/litter?)
During the day they did their own thing, wandering around. About the time the lights went off they'd huddle close together in groups of 3 or 4. I'm thinking they did the 'safety in numbers' thing. Once they get older they do prefer to be alone, but babies seem to do very well in groups as long as they're not trampling each other to death. If you have room to house them all separately, go ahead, but it can be a pain to maintain all those small tanks. They can get stuffy, air circulation isn't as good in small enclosures. That's probably why the 65 gallon tank worked so well even for montane species like the Jacksons.

[Double J]

Originally posted by HeatherRose
Double J, have you ever witnessed any squabbles or injuries when they're housed together? How long do you keep them together for?

The only thing I have ever witnessed in my setups was during feeding time, they would all scramble towards the crickets. Where the problem occurred (though rarely) was when they would grab onto each other, thinking their siblings were twigs for climbing on. At the worst, the chameleon that was the grab-ee would squirm for a second or two, while the other realized that they were holding onto another. Now, this is fairly rare, and I have NEVER seen any injuries, flaring up, or biting as a result. The squirm usually does the trick immediately, and both chams go feeding on their merry way. Now, I must stress, this is a rare incidence at best, and is the worst thing to have ever happened... but is of little concern nonetheless. The more twigs and fake plants that you place in the tank, the lower the chance is of this happening.

[meow_mix450]

How do you guys deal with fruitflies?

Meow

[HeatherRose]

Thanks Double J...

Meow, you can buy flightless fruit fly cultures at Petsmart for $14.99.

[Double J]

Originally posted by meow_mix450
How do you guys deal with fruitflies?

Meow

Here is a great link to some information on fly culturing.
This is the recipe I have used for ages.

http://www.understoryenterprises.com/culturing.htm

The most important thing with culturing flies is to have escape proof lids, as if flyers invade your culture, it is pooched.
The most reliable lid system for most people is mason jars and coffee filters. Double up the coffee fliters, and screw them onto the jar with the lid ring that comes with the mason jars. This keeps flyers out, and is cost effective.


Good luck

[meow_mix450]

lol sorry i didnt explain what i meant. Umm my fruit flies can climb on glass and i was wondering how you dealed with that when feeding you chameleons so they wont escape?

Meow

[galad]

meow try putting the fruit flies in the fridge before you feed them so they cool own a bit and pretty much go to sleep like the meal worms then dump them into the enclosure. IN a couple minutes they will warm up and be buzzing again.

Yea I didnt mean to start a big scuffle. Double J take it easy we are each intitled to our own opinion. I would have to agree with kevin. If you dont have the space you shouldnt be breeding.

Heather if you have the space I would deffinalty recommend seperate enclosures better safe then sorry.
Again guys how can you tell the chams apart?
Plus together they would never all eat the same amount so they would all grow at diffrent rates you would think. Then in a month wouldnt you need to seperate them according to size anyways.
I myself am going to hold out on selling them for at least 2.5 months. MOst of the time people have clutches at around the same time. SO there is a bunch of one species on the market, dropping the price of the said species. If you hold out a bit and get your chams good and ready to be shipped there wont be as many on the market and you could prob sell for a bit more rather then less.

If this makes snece to anyone. OF course this only works with seasonal breeders. SOmething like leos wouldnt work because they are always on the market.

[Collide]

I think the ideal way would be to have seperate cages but this is not very practical in all cases. when u have huge clutches of babies its impossible to seperate them all, I tryed to seperate my babie veilds but it was way to much work, as long as u know what u are doing and what to look out for (ie an aggressive one that needs to be seperated, small ones) u are fine.

[galad]

very well put collide

[Chris_Anderson]

There are a number of ways to do it. Here are a few suggestions:

http://www.chameleonnews.com/babyexperience.html
http://www.chameleonnews.com/year2003/oct2003/baby_caging/baby_caging.html
http://www.chameleonnews.com/year2002/nov2002/horgan/first_weeks.html
http://www.screameleons.com/portal/alias__Screameleons/lang__en-US/tabID__3467/DesktopDefault.aspx

Chris

[Double J]

Originally posted by galad

Yea I didnt mean to start a big scuffle. Double J take it easy we are each intitled to our own opinion. I would have to agree with kevin. If you dont have the space you shouldnt be breeding.



I am simply appalled and offended by the last sentence in the above quote. You threw down the gauntlet, and here is my response.

Galad... do YOU have any PERSONAL EXPERIENCE breeding chameleons???? It certainly doesn't sound like it to me. It seems as if you are simply regurgutating what you have read in the article.

This brings me to my second point.... have you actually been reading any of the other posts???? EVERYBODY ELSE keeps multiple individuals per tank in the early stages.

Here is an excerpt from one of Collide's posts:

"when u have huge clutches of babies its impossible to seperate them all, I tryed to seperate my babie veilds but it was way to much work, as long as u know what u are doing and what to look out for"

Then galad, you reply with "very well put collide"

Your replies contradict each other.

And to clarify....... I did not EVER state that I lacked the room to house the babies individually! My point instead, was that housing them individually was neither necessary, nor efficient. Having over 35 individual tanks for 35 individual juveniles with 5.0 UVB bulbs for each container, plus the racking is grossly unnecessary, and incredibly inefficient. I DO have the room to house them individually, but it would be an intense waste of resources, time, space, and money. My frog room is 21 feet by 11 feet, plus I have another room off to the side that is is 8 feet by 6 feet. About half of the space in my two herp rooms is occupied. Do the math. Splitting up 35 babies among 7 ten gallon tanks is hardly poor husbandry, and to insist otherwise is simply ludicrous.

I apologise to the other forum members, but this "armchair expertise" is both ignorant and rude.

I think that if you haven't any personal experience on the subject, you should not be giving advice.

[meow_mix450]

Galad you have to read the posts carefully. Every thread that you posted on has created a small argument. Double J didnt do anything but just gave a suggestion, and advice on how he did things. Double J has had experience with rasising baby chameleons and you havnt "yet". So a suggestion is to read the posts over again, and dont take it as such a threat

Meow

[HeatherRose]

Thanks for the links Chris!

I am still on the fence about housing them seperately or together. I find that with a clutch of even 20+, maintaining that many tanks will be hectic, and some of the chameleons will not get adequate care. It's simply not very feasible. I think I will probably keep them in small groups for a few weeks at least.

[meow_mix450]

Ya I think it all depends on how big the tank is, how many did you house in the 10 gallon Double J?

Meow

[Double J]

I have generally kept five per ten gallon tank. On a few occasions there were six or seven babies in one or two tanks while the rest had five, but this was the exception rather than the rule.
Again, they were only housed in this density for no longer than a month generally.

[RDexotics]

Well I can't speak for double J but I house usually 5 or 6 to a 10 gallon. I keep an couple extra tanks free incase theres one or two that aren't growing as fast or seem overly aggresive then they get there own tank. I also separate them according to size after 2-3 weeks.

[RDexotics]

musta been typing that at the same time lol

[CarlC]

There is no problem at all raising in groups for a little bit. Some species tolerate it better thans others so judement needs to be used.
Of the like 20+ species I have had babies from only a few couldn't be housed together for a month or so. I didn't use tanks all the time but weither it is screen or a good sized tank as long as it is not overfilled with babies you should be ok.
One thing that should be stressed is the longer they are kept in groups you run the risk of seeing problems like stunted growth.

Carl

[galad]

Thank you Carl
yes now isnt that what I was talking about just what carl said at the end of his post.. Maybe you guys should read my posts more carefully as well. I have never said I have raised baby chameleons before, but it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out which would be the best way to raise them. And from reading many articles on raising baby chameleons, housing them idividualy seems to be the best method. Sure it is more work and may cost a bit more, but the quality of every single baby would add up for all that extra.
BUt hey I dont know anything just because I have not raised any yet. Comeon people. OH but Carl has experience and he said exactly what I did in the end of his post. But hes right and im wrong.

Yea that makes alot of sence. YOu guys need to take a step back and take a good long look at yourselves. Seems to me like you guys think you are so much better and so much more knowledgeable just because youve hatched some eggs and I havent?
Yes experience is a good thing to have but it is not absolutly necessary when dealing with things that to me just require alittle common sence.
LIke carl said in anouther post. "I have been called worse, by much better" Well isnt that quite arrogant. JUSt because someone has been in the industry longer then someone else, and keep lots of reptiles in no way means they are better then me.
The probleme is most of you think this way. YOu all need to get off the high horse and come back to realitly. You are not better then other people because you have more experience.

And I am not imagining things, because I see people talking down to others all the time in this forum.

[Chris_Anderson]

Originally posted by galad
Thank you Carl
yes now isnt that what I was talking about just what carl said at the end of his post.. Maybe you guys should read my posts more carefully as well. I have never said I have raised baby chameleons before, but it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out which would be the best way to raise them. And from reading many articles on raising baby chameleons, housing them idividualy seems to be the best method. Sure it is more work and may cost a bit more, but the quality of every single baby would add up for all that extra.
BUt hey I dont know anything just because I have not raised any yet. Comeon people. OH but Carl has experience and he said exactly what I did in the end of his post. But hes right and im wrong.

The difference is, you said if you can't house them individually you shouldn't be breeding and Carl said that you can house them in groups but that the LONGER you go with them in groups, the more chance of problems as they get older. Thats a big difference. Seems to me you're the one who needs to read your posts more carefully.



Originally posted by galad
Yea that makes alot of sence. YOu guys need to take a step back and take a good long look at yourselves. Seems to me like you guys think you are so much better and so much more knowledgeable just because youve hatched some eggs and I havent?
Yes experience is a good thing to have but it is not absolutly necessary when dealing with things that to me just require alittle common sence.
LIke carl said in anouther post. "I have been called worse, by much better" Well isnt that quite arrogant. JUSt because someone has been in the industry longer then someone else, and keep lots of reptiles in no way means they are better then me.
The probleme is most of you think this way. YOu all need to get off the high horse and come back to realitly. You are not better then other people because you have more experience.

And I am not imagining things, because I see people talking down to others all the time in this forum.

All i could think to myself reading this paragraph was that you are the biggest hypocrit I've seen in a long time. Don't act so arrogant and we won't point out your ignorance. Respect is earned and all you've earned with your attitude is our dislike.

Carl's post was very good and you seem to have misinterpreted it. I've raised babies individually and in groups with success. Both have their pros and cons. Some species do noticably better individually while others do perfectly well in groups with proper attention. It really depends on what the breeder feels most comfortable with and how the babies act in their setup.

Chris

[HeatherRose]

Seems to me like you guys think you are so much better and so much more knowledgeable just because youve hatched some eggs and I havent?

While I don't think this is the case, don't their experiences make their knowledge a bit more valuable? (not MORE valuable than any one elses, just more valuable in general).

I think it's time for everyone to just take a step back, as you all seem to be in agreement anyway. From what I understand, if you've got the space and the infinite resources to house them seperately, go for it, but it's alright to keep them in small groups for a short period of time.

[meow_mix450]

thank you!

Meow

[galad]

yea you know im sorry guys. And looking back at what I had posted yes it was hiprocritical. When people start getting rude and emotions flare I mess up, and say things I shouldn't. I've really got to learn to just keep my mouth shut sometimes.

What Ive been trying to say is that, from everything I have read on raising baby chameleons; housing them individualy seems to be the best way. Now im not saying group housing is wrong, cause obviously people have had alot of sucess doing it.
BUt whoever started this post asked what we though was the best way to house baby chameleons.

From now on Im just going to read the first post and add what I think. Trying to deal with everyone else just starts nothing but trouble obviously.

Sorry guys

peace

[Herpguy2004]

if people are worried about space you can goto canadian tire, rona, or somewhere like that and buy a shoe rack wich has shelves just high enough for shoe boxes.... convienient much?

[DragnDrop]

Originally posted by Herpguy2004
if people are worried about space you can goto canadian tire, rona, or somewhere like that and buy a shoe rack wich has shelves just high enough for shoe boxes.... convienient much?

Chams in shoe boxes, huh?

[dank7oo]

You really should have expanded on that Hilde. Let me take the pleasure of doing so :)

CHAMELEONS are not SNAKES.

If there are any confusions about my statement, please feel free to drop me a PM.

Jason

[meow_mix450]

lol this thread tunred up side down, soooooo lost

Meow