Boa Babies Born Jan 20, 2005!!!!!

[AnniesMom]

Any support/suggestions/advice that I can get about these babies would be greatly appreciated!!http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/508/3225Ameansbreathingorheatbeat-med.jpg

[Shad0w]

CONGRATS!!!

[BoidKeeper]

Take the mother out and wash her down but her into a new cage.
Leave the babies alone for a day or two but you may want to mist them with warm water. When they start moving around take them out and set them up in their own individual tubs.
Offer them a pinkie rat for their first meal, not a fuzzy mouse.
Congrats,
Trevor

[~Suntiger~]

Congratulations!!
Do you have pictures for us???? :D

[Bartman]

Congrats! Thats sweet :D

[AnniesMom]

There were 18 slugs and 14 neonates. The babies are mostly lying still, although I can see a pulse and breathing in some of them. I've been misting them a little with warm water. Are they normally active right after birth? The mother is out of the cage already. I'm wondering if they are slowly coming around or if they are slowly dying. HELP!!! I didn't even know that Honey was preggers. She kept eating and when Jake was with her a while ago, I didn't see any successful mating.

[BOAS_N_PYTHONS]

ANNIESMOM:

Congrats.

First get a sweaterbox rubbermaid ready with its own heat sources like a human heat pad. Have a misting bottle ready with room temp water for regular misting. Remove mom first clean her up and secure her away from the cage and the babies like another large rubbermaid. Take each baby and place in new clean misted rubbermaid tub lined in papertowel. Becareful with each baby. Once all of them are in this tub, place on heat source and check on them regular and mist. As for main cage clean out everything, wash it down in warm water and dish soap. Clean everything inside and wipe all down after. Set up the cage again as it was for mom and place her back inside of cage. Cover the cage front so she can have some peace - some boas get very aggressive in this process and do go through a stage of wondering where the babies are. Back to the babies - check in on them regular and provide a clean tub, paper towel set up again every 12 hours or so depending on messy after birth and order from high humidity set ups. Doing them regular over the next 6 days will ensure a somewhat sterile environment for the babies. At this stage 2 things happen you can either leave them together or have show box rubbermiads for each babby, I prefer this set up as now they can be observed as individuals. Once the shed process is over for each boa - introduction of food is your next step and before you get there it will be anywhere from 2 weeks to a month or so.

CAUTION....removal of the babies from mom' s cage and during clean up of the full group is to be taken around there yoke sacks, let them digest as much of it as possible in the next 3 days, Most at this stage drop off and then they are much easier to handle and prepare in each cage.

Good luck :D

Tony

[AnniesMom]

Thanks Tony, I'm concerned though because most of them aren't moving. Occasionally, I see one move, or a pulse or a breath, but none of them are moving around in the cage. Is this normal???
I will start the set up that you described now. How do you know that the mother is finished for sure. She still has a lump in the lower part of her body. Should this concern me?? She is not contracting anymore.

[boa]

I take it this cluch was not planned?By that picture they all look still born (dead).Are all the boas in the picture that were born or did you remove the live ones?

[boa]

Give me an email here with more pictures and close ups we will chat then about your concerns.
boadude2003@yahoo.com

[chappy]

Looks to me like your female gave birth prematurely, I've had the same problem. If I can find it I will forward you some info I got some a friend. It helped me a lot so hopefully it will help you.

Good Luck,

Nick

EDIT: Ok I sent off an email and I left my number so feel free to call if you want.

[BOAS_N_PYTHONS]

ANNIESMOM:

Start the set up I described. The concern some are not moving - best way to check is to mist if the flinch or start moving more then they are active enjough for removal and ready for the set I described. If you can reach them without the mom being aggressive or endangering the young with her weight then try and get all of the out including still borns, slugs and so on. Take count of everything your doing this is valuable information for records. If the yound do not react to the misting or little touching them then it is a possibility then are so weak them may not survive the ordeal. I can not say for certain I can only generalize because I can not see them in person. If you can do 2 set ups ones that look alert and healthy and another with the non- alert weaker ones then you will get a better idea of what they may need with the coming hours and days. Naturally in nature they will need to feel secure and even none motion is a form of security if the notice mom close by or the surrounding area seems secure.

I notice in the photo they are all scattered, was this done by you or them or the way mom gave birth to them?

Misting is very important as fragile as the are the heat is drying them up rather fast and they needed misting to help keep them moist and vibrant.

I can try and help more please place more photos. Photos that will help me better understand the situation are views from all over the cage showing size and heat source. Full view of the cage and some photos of mom. She may have a large lump in her and that can still be young or her long await defication after this birth. Unless she already went to today on yesturday this may be the lump that is coming. Is her attitude different, and is she aggressive and more than normal alert at you. Is she gentle in the cage towards the young, has she smothering the young or end hurt any with her size. All these questions need tro be answered to continue with the help. The more photos you present the better idea I can get. Time is important as well when did she start giving birth how much time has passed till your post and our replies.

I use MSN messenger if you want more direct and faster help I can try through this service if you use it as well.

Contact me via MSN messenger at : nemesisboaspythons@hotmail.com

Hear from you soon or I will check into this post as regular as I can :D

Tony Pharosx

[AnniesMom]

I went into the kitchen where the cages are at 430pm, 5 hours ago, and she was in labour. She delivered until 530pm. Her behaviour was normal, although perky, and very active. Not aggressive. I removed the mother after she finished birthing, and had to move the babies so that I could get rid of the mess. She had them all at one end of the cage, and was lying and rolling on them, thus I moved them. She pooped within the last week.

[BOAS_N_PYTHONS]

ANNIESMOM:

Originally posted by AnniesMom
and was lying and rolling on them

This may be the reason some look dead, unless they move with mistying or you picking them up they either with birthed dead or she mave have killed them.

Get them all out and check on each one gently.

Being you were not certain she was gravid and so early in season to give birth although it happens if it was planned then this may be a premature birth and some may not survive but you need to try and make sure they do.

Tony Pharosx

[chappy]

The yolk sacks the babies need to absorb are in their stomachs, the ones attached to the umbilical cord need to be removed or they will get this green mucus on them which is bad. Once you get the sacks removed, put them on dry papertowel and leave them alone. The umbilical cord will dry up and fall off on its own within a couple of days and their yolk sack inside will give them everything else they need. I wouldn't bother spraying them. I would handle them as little as possible. In my case the babies didn't move very much so i wouldnt worry too much, if they're alive you will know when you move them.

I'm not saying my way is the right way or the only way, but this is what has worked for me.

Nick

[AnniesMom]

When I checked the babies this morning, none responded to misting at all. They all appear dead. They are kinda flat, and dry looking, even though the rubbermaid had moisture in it and the towels were damp. None had changed postion from last night. Still in the same places. I don't think that they made it. I will leave them until this afternoon, and if there is still no movement, I need to assume they are gone. An unfortuante end to my first clutch. Thanks for your support
Tracy

[BoidKeeper]

Tracy if they were going to die they were going to die whether you took them out or left them in. Like Nick said they sounded like preemies to me too. If that is the case their death was beyond your control. What can happen when a female keeps eating after ovulation is that when she has a dump close to the due date it can get contractions going and she will start pushing out the babies too soon. This is why a lot of breeders don't feed their females after ovulation, some before even. Was their fresh fecal matter in with the babies?
Cheers,
Trevor

[BOAS_N_PYTHONS]

TRACY:

Sorry to hear about the loss.

Tony

[AnniesMom]

Thanks Tony, Trevor. No there was no fresh poop with the babies, but she did poop within the last week. After I left this morning, my hubby checked on them again, and said that one of them responded to being misted and so he seperated it from the others and increased the temp and humididty a little, but when I got home, there was no reaction. I suspect that it was just maybe post-mortem muscle spasms, or wishfull thinking, although he said that he could see a pulse. I hate to get rid of the bodies until I know that they are truly dead, because last night I would watch them and they would not breathe, move or pulse for an hour and then they would start again. Very strange and stressful. Nothing I can do I know, but it bugs me to see such little things die. Maybe I should leave the breeding up to the experts. Too depressing for me.

[Phrasty]

Aww. sorry about all this, it sux. But giving up isnt the answer. Its life... these things happen, unfortunately it happend to you or rather your snake. What im trying to say is give her a break (i dont know if she's just too young) for a year and try again, Just be prepared from earlier.
Well hopefully at least one pulls through. good luck.

[AnniesMom]

Thanks Phrasty. none of the babies pulled through. I think that it's not her age(she's over 8years old) or her size(she's well over 7.5 feet). She continued eating during her pregnancy and pooped recently. i think that started a preemie labour. The largest of the neonates was less that 12 inches in length and they were all very slender, with large yolk sacs. We are going to try her again, during the next breeding season. I'm doing more research .

[JDouglas]

I realize you didn't know whe was gravid. They all look premature to me. I'm very sorry.

They have very large yolk sacs for their size which indicates they weren't done growing. Preemies lungs are not fully developed and that is why they are having troulbe breathing. The mother pushed them around to get them going and out of their sacs. She meant no harm but sometimes this can kill healthy babies.

Handling her could have started premature labor. When was the last time she was handled?

Feeding a boa in the last few weeks can also cause premature birth and there doesn't neccesarily have to be a passed stool to cause it. Just the added pressure of the food can cause it and then they can deficate a few days after birth. When was she last fed?

What temperature was her cool side and hot spot?

These are all things you need to investigate to know what went wrong.

Don't give up. You actually were somewhat successful. Many people who try to breed them get nothing at all and never figure it out. Your halfway there!

Jaremy

[AnniesMom]

fed jan 5, pooped jan 14 ,held jan 14. Hot spot 91, cool side 84. she peed yesterday, and I took her out. she is very active right now. she ate on the 22, 2 days after birth, and seems hungry again. there is no lump in her from the meal. I wonder if I should feed her again? or wait a week or so. I am planning to try again in the later summer/fall. maybe be a little more prepared next time. I spoke with a pet shop owner who has bred boas and he was disappointed with the loss, as he was hoping to get one from me.

[ATBlover]

Im sorry about your loss Annie....Jeremy is right...there was nothing you can do and most people get nothing when they breed for the first time...also boas arent the easiest to breed either...Anyways just wanted to say sry and i hope you continue with breeding you boas...Good luck.....Connor:)

[AnniesMom]

Thanks Connor. I will be tryin again. Tracy

[dave68]

Annies Mom, Good to hear you're not giving up, but I myself would give your girl a whole year off with some good strong feeding to bring her weight back up and just kinda recharge her batteries so to speak. Good luck.

Dave

[AnniesMom]

Dave, she actually didn't lose much weight during her pregnancy. Part of the reason she went into preemie labour was because she continued eating normal sized meals, I think. Thank you for your concern. Honey Bun is first and foremost my pet, and her welfare is my greatest concern, not her breeding capabilities. I want her to breed again, but not at the risk of her health.

[Stav.T]

Hi Tracy,

Nothing I can do I know, but it bugs me to see such little things die. Maybe I should leave the breeding up to the experts. Too depressing for me.

I know its hard to take and even harder to understand when a thing like that happens especially if its the first time a person gets a litter of boas. ( i've been thrue that more than once since I started breeding boas a long time ago. )

There's a better way to see it other than just quiting. The way I see it is ..... Its a part of the long learning process of breeding boas. Without things like that hapening someone can't experience, question and learn on breeding. ( I dont know if you understand what i'm trying to say my english is poor. ) Seing it this way should help a bit I think and maybe bring you some kind of confort ;)

Many things might have gone wrong it hapens. These were premature babies judjing by how big their sack is as many other people already told you.

Some of the most common reasons why this happend could be :

- to much manipulation on during pregnancy - stress ( especially if your not aware that she was gravid ) .

- temperatures she was kept ( to cold or to high can kill the babies, and maybe the reason why she gave birth prematurally so that they dont rot inside her )

- drugs ( There's some drugs that can do that to , if she took them during pregnancy - even in the early stages )

- Very big sized meals on the last miles of her pregnancy. ( There's boas that stop eating right when you put the male with the female and others that eat until 1-2 weeks before giving birth and this whithout any problem. I personally feed all females "logical sized meals" until they decide to stop by them self. I never had any problems with that practice. )

- Not enough fat reserves to sustain pregnancy until the end.

These things are what I think are the most common reasons for getting stillborns. ( again only from what i experienced ).

I hope this helps its not worth it quiting ;)

Edit**** I forgot.... do you have any pics of the female after birth? sometimes it can give clues on what happenned. ( just curious and its really an intersting topic to me ;)

Stav

[AnniesMom]

Hi Stav, no I don't have any pictures of Honey following birth. She has eaten twice since the 20th of Jan, so it would not be accurate. As to your points:
- she was handled during pregnancy on a regular basis. (ignorance of gravidity on my part)
-temps range from 84 - 92 in her cage, so I don't think that is a problem.
-no medications taken.
-she continued to eat normal sized meals for most of her pregnancy, ie large guinea pigs or 2 lb rabbits.
- she was not "fat" before pregnancy, but she had a good amount of padding on her. I will see if I can post a pic of her before she was preggers.

I don't intend to give up. It was an upsetting but very educational process, and with the info I have been given since, I feel much better prepared to deal with the next pregnancy.
Tracy