Question for Cobraman (Re: Self Immunizing)

[FacultyX]

Ray, I read a write-up in a medical jornal about your practice of injecting diluted snake venoms in an effort to build immunity to snake venoms. You stated that it was like an added precaution (or insurance policy) because of your higher than average exposure to more of a variety of hots that the average collector. Would you answer a few questions I have that were either not clear, or not covered in the article?
1) Is this a safe practice? In the interview you stated that it is not generly considered safe for several reasons. Could you ellaborate a little?
2) How did you go about starting that, and how would someone else do so?
3) You mentioned the pros and cons of the practice, and one of the cons you mentioned was that you felt it could make you a little more complacent in your work. Is that really the case? and do you think that could have something to do with the number of bites both you and Mr. Haast have?
Ray, I was going to e-mail you with this, but I thought others on this forum may find it as interesting as I do, and would like to hear about it also. Of course, as you have seen, there are one or two that will use it to further dig at you and your work, so if you think it best to not discuss it on a public forum, please e-mail me instead.
Thanks
Freddy

P.S.-Some of us miss your pics that you used to post. Strange - yes, but entertaining, and that is what most of this is about. Please don't let one or two ruin it for the rest of us who enjoy your postings.
Freddy

[cobraman]

Hey there Fred, Nice to know you are still out there (somewhere). I don't mind answering the questions you wrote, and if the moderator feels it is inappropriate for this forum he will remove it with my blessing. There were some things I did want to avoid in the previous interview, such as the exact details of how to start doing this. This can be a very dangerous practice, and one miscalculation could cost your life, so I caution people about it and discourage it without a medical doctor's backing. ok, having said that, I will answer our questions in the order you asked them:
1) If done correctly it can be a safe practice. However there are unforseen problems that can arise, such as developing hypersensitivity to venoms, which could make your next bite far worse than if you had not been self immunizing. This has not happened to me, but I remember a time when Bill Haast developed hypersensitivities to snake venoms, which he has since overcome. Also it helps to have a little medical background, unless you are lucky enough to find a doctor that is supportive of your doing this (good luck!). I am a medic/x-ray tech/phlibotobmist/.................. so I am not likely going to make a fatal mistake like injecting into a vein etc. It is also necessary to do periodic liver function profiles to check that you are not doing excessive damage to your liver. Snake venom is very damaging to the liver (ask Mr. Haast, he will definetly back up this fact).
2) I started by using good old common knowledge of both snake venoms and the human body. 4 months after I had started, I ran it by Bill Haast, basiclly to see if I was on the right track, or if I was missing something. I respect Bill's focus on liability on this issue, and am that way myself now, so I don't tell people how to start doing it themselves, but will sometimes discuss what I did to start.
3) I do believe that it CAN make one more complacent about working with venomous snakes. I have discussed that also with Mr. Haast, but he did not agree or disagree. You never want to get it into your head that these things CAN'T kill you. When you start feeling that way, it's time to call it quits. As I tried to explain to someone on this site recently, I am human, I am going to make mistakes, and I DO learn from them. I have never been bitten a second time from making the same mistake that caused me to get bitten in the past. But it's when you start thinking that it can't happen to you, or that the snakes can't kill you, then it's time to call it quits and move on to another area of the field. To answer part two of your third question, yes, I feel that it is quite possible that my high resistance (you can not become immune, just resistant) to some venoms may have a part in the unfortunately high number of bites I have had in the past 17 years. But it also has a great deal to do with the fact that I am still alive today after some of those bites. I know Bill Haast would agree with that in terms of his own record. Hope that helps ya some.

Fear not (of fear, if you want to) more pics coming soon. The reception I get from the vast majority of you far outweighs the one or two who have different motives anyway.
Blessings
Ray

[Tim_Cranwill]

Very interesting, Ray. Crazy as he!!, but interesting. Thanks for the info.

I'd like to see more pics too!!! :) It's nice to see you're posting again.

[Zhakrin]

Hi Ray,

I also happen to be a Medic/RN and my girlfriend happens to be a RN with a leading Transplant facility in Canada and we started talking about this after reading this thread.

We both feel that you are severely playing with fire. We have cared patients who have come for transplant after being exposed to some very toxic animals.

Certain toxins can and will accumulate in certain human tissues, with every exposure the level rises and weaken that tissue's ability to function properly. This happens primarily with the liver, kidneys and the central nervous system.

By self administration of such toxic agents you are most likely speeding yourself towards premature hepatic and renal faillure. The toxins in snake venom can be very rare chemically, yet harmful and not show up on normal blood tox screens, and would require a liver biopsy to moniter. So you can never be sure when you may hit a toxic level or end up in liver/renal faillure.

Snake venoms contain numerous toxic chemicals that can cause central nervous system disfunctions, including increasing your risk for MS, Parkinson's, early onset dementia and death.

I equate what you are doing to the treatment of cancer patient. Chemotherapy is the purposeful administration of a chemical posion that is intended to kill the cancerous cells in the body. Unfortunately the chemo also kills other healthy cells, like hair folicles and the lining of the GI tract. However, these patients have little choice they need the treatment now, and will deal with the side-effects (both short and long term) as they happen.

To make the connection, you are a healthy person without cancer but you are willingly giving yourself chemo.

I am not sure about the resistance building effect this self adminstration has, but I will ask the Toxicolgist on my floor tonight.

Bottom line here is that by trying to protect yourself from a possible lethal bite you maybe shorting your life expectancy by decades or setting yourself up as a Toxic time bomb.

Beware my friend, whenever you play with you body's natural biochemistry.

[cobraman]

Zhakrin; Thank you for your post. What you say is correct, there are many unknown or potential problems in this practice. I work wit a slew of doctors and toxicologists who sudy the effects of it. All my lab work so far comes up within normal limits, but as you mentioned, there could be something we are missing. So far it is felt that because the venoms are diluted so much (1:1000) the body is able to effectively filter them out, and yet the antibodies are being produced. I am interested in hearing what the toxicologist on your floor says. Bill haast has been doing this since the 1940's, and I have done it since 1991. This December 31, Bill will be 92 (he would be an excellent canadate for a study, but that is not going to happen.)
Thank you again,
Blessings
Ray

[cobraman]

excuse my poor typing in the above post. I am still without the full function of my left index finger (from the hagen's bite) so my typing skills are pathetic right now.
Ray

[FacultyX]

Ray, thanks for the reply. I tried to get in touch with you but got your secretary (I guess). Hope to see ya at the December show.
Fred

[FacultyX]

By the way, Ray, I heard from your friend in central Florida that TWo doctors are going to publish the Hagens Viper bite in some medical journal. Are you in agreement with that? What's the deal?
Fred

[josefg]

Originally posted by FacultyX
By the way, Ray, I heard from your friend in central Florida that TWo doctors are going to publish the Hagens Viper bite in some medical journal. Are you in agreement with that? What's the deal?
Fred

Hey man this is what all Philip's post was about in the other thread. We don't need publicity for such events!

[cobraman]

Fred, I have to agree with both Josefg and philip. This is not the place for that. You have my phone number, so please call me if you want to discuss this issue. I can't stop doctors from publishing whatever they want, but I do not feel we need to add hurts to a hurtfull situation in terms of negative publicity.

[josefg]

Well said Ray!!

[Zhakrin]

Hey Ray,

The Discovery Channel is showing "Venom: 9 ways to die" tonight.

I dont say this due to recent events, just that it may have some info for you or at least be interesting

[cobraman]

Thank you, I will be out of town, but I may have my girlfriend tape it for me.
Blessings
Ray