morphs

[paul_le_snake]

just a little thing i want to get off my chest, y r ppl so excited about new colour morphs???? i saw in the recent Reptile magazine a picture of a leucistic blackheaded python..GOOD GOD it was the ugliest thing i ever saw! unfortunatly it will proabaly cost a few thousand dollars more than a beautiful natural looking bhp. some of the recent mutaions are truly laughable (in my opinio anyway!) some of the names for ball pythons are great! and the prices that go with them are even funnier. $5000 for an axanthic ball?????? it's ugly.
calico retics for god knows jow much...they look like they've been dragged through a puddle of mud. Bullseye rainbow boas, looks like it has a scale defect or a bit of mould. Small time breeders make up names all the time in the hope of bumping the price of a regular ball python up by whatever they want. some of the american ads are great fun too, killer patterns, screamers...whats next murderous peaks?
it's the same for lizards too, leopard geckos are beautiful animals, but some of the mutants available nowadays are anything but screamers. now i see that crested geckos are being diversified. chocolate morph, dalmation etc.
corn snakes, another great pet snake. has more colour morphs than i've had hot dinners (and thats alot!!)
i have no problem with ppl wanting to keep these weirdo animals, but i think that the only variant that i can say looks better than anything else is the boring old albino. anyone remember when the first albino burm came along? in england they were selling for 7000 a pair, bred by a great bloke called dave lester.
i guess my main point of pissiness, is the TRUE labrynth python. it was first discovered in thailand in the early 70's a zoo in england was the only place i heard of that had some. they tried to ensure that they kept this new species pure, but unfortunatly they couldn't and then some breeder in america had some, but couldn't get them to breed, so he crossed them with a burm, the result....the possible extinction of a python, and more crossed and hybridized pythons.
enough rambling for one day, just food for thought. if ppl breed these animals then ppl will buy them, but after producing snakes for a fair few years and seeing some beautiful animals i still can't see the point in morphs.

[Tim_Cranwill]

I agree in some cases (axanthic balls) and don't in others. Intersesting topic though.

[Linds]

Personally, the morph craze sickens me. I cannot even bear to browse the ball python forum -on that other site-, and half the other forums and classifieds can really get to me at times. This is not to say I don't like all morphs, there are a few select morphs that appeal to me, but I do not like them because of the dollar value or all the hype that surrounds them, which I believe is often the case. This is not to say I will ONLY own all normals, but for the most part, they will be nice classic specimens of the speices, not mutations. And why should a colour mutation be worth more than a shining example of a rare species??? It's a bunch of BS to me.

Now as for you saying they are ugly, well, that's jsut your opinion. There are obviously enough people that think far from that. I personally think calico retics are beautiful animals. Snow Balls and albino burms however, blech! But that's just all a matter of preference. Nobody can really say for a fact that any of those animals are ugly, just that it is a personal preference.

But back to my point, the whole morph craze sickens me, and a good part of it is driven be the almighty $$, its a crying shame. Especially all the people arguing over whether an animal is this morph or that morph, when in fact it looks more like a normal to me. Alot of these animals ARE in fact just nice normals, but everyone would rather have a morph :rolleyes:

If I ever breed any morphs, I'm going for the no-brainer ones ;) OK... you had your rant, and I had mine, whose next? Hehehe :)

[Dunner]

i'm not going to rant, simply some morphs are nice, some are not, the price is obsurd for most of them, i think the whole morph thing is pretty stupid myself, but hey to each their own, i'm not going to buy any 5000 dollar snake, so it doesn'treally concern me, oh well

[C.Marshell]

what it boils down to is suply and demand..if the suply is low but demand is high then prices usually follow suit.
I have to say im with linds on this one,i'll just stick with the no brainer morphs..its easier that way and i cant be bothered argueing over weather something is or isnt a morph.
But whatever the case ,morphs are here to stay weather we like it or not..as long as there is a demand for a certain color mutation,or what have you...there is someone out there who will produce it,and if its rare you can bet the price will be high and there will always be someone to purchase it,Morphs are geared arround the serious collectors, hobbiest and breeders,to someone that merley wants a pet snake morphs are usually of little concern.
Just look at all the people who pay thousands of dollars for a baseball cards or comic books some people look at them like thier nuts..but to them they have a treasure..like Dunner said,to each his own.
We each enjoy the hobby in diferent ways,but i believe the passion we show for our animals is something that will always remain pretty constant.

Chris M

[Dunner]

well said chris, linds, paul.....good show

[Jeff_Favelle]

I don't understand why YOU'RE getting so "excited". If you don't like the morphs, don't buy one. You should be happy. The cost of new morphs drives the price down of normals, and if that's all YOU like, then YOU win. How the he!! could you complain about that? I guess you didn't really think about it then did you? If everyone else is paying through the nose for a new color, then doesn't it stand to reason that the less-desired normals would be cheaper for YOU to buy. Is that a bad thing?

As for the price of morphs, I'm glad. I wish it was more. I wish ALL animals cost more. It "sickens" ME when the animals intrinsic value has FAR-outweighed its monetary value. Look at Leopard geckos, corn snakes, beardeds, etc etc. $20 animals? That's gross, in my opinion! They have become disposeble. I hate that. I'd never touch one of those animals because of that. Those animals are worth more to me and the planet inherently (in and of themselves) than anyone will ever pay for them again. Yuck! Also, if someone pays a lot for a snake, you can be damn sure that they'll take care of it. Why wouldn't you, after spending all that money?

Also, without this kind of money floating around in the industry, you simply wouldn't see alot of the animals available that we do today. If there wasn't the financial rewards for some of these things, the efforts and time wouldn't have been put in. And then we'd all go back to keeping anoles and Cuban Tree frogs. How fun would that be? Or would you rather we all had animals raped from the wild? 'Cause that'd be sweet.

And that Labrynth Burm? I don't understand how crossing it out in the States made it extinct everywhere? Did the breedings in the US kill the adult animals in the Uk through some magical process? 'Cause that'd something else.

:D

[lanalizard]

i just think morphs are morphs..no need to go extensively into breeding morphs that are just another color and selling them for 16,000$ !!!!!

you can sell it for a little bit more but i mean, c'mon, 16 THOUSAND? na nah nah......its rediculous...
but that is my 2 cents.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Not ridiculous at all. Why should a breeder go through all the hard work, RISK and time to produce morphs at a lower price so YOU can afford them? That's not fair to the breeder. You have to understand that these morphs are NOT for the general public's consumption (although they CAN buy them if they want to). The morphs are for other breeders and are seen as an investment. Until the particular morphs is established in the industry (and not JUST established, but inundated) then the prices stay high. These are not pet-store animals (thank God!). I think that $20 for a Leopard Gecko is ridiculous. And its the leos that suffer for it.

[Linds]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
Not ridiculous at all. Why should a breeder go through all the hard work, RISK and time to produce morphs at a lower price

Can you honestly say that someone that produces a $30,000 ball python does $29,950 more work than one who strives to produce beautiful normal specimens???

I don't understand why YOU'RE getting so "excited". If you don't like the morphs, don't buy one. You should be happy. The cost of new morphs drives the price down of normals, and if that's all YOU like, then YOU win. How the he!! could you complain about that? I guess you didn't really think about it then did you?

We have all the right to get excited when everywhere we go its rubbed right in our faces. Perhaps for many of us part of the hobby includes interacting with other hobbysits, but everywhere you go you see this BS of people battling over this morph and that. If we don't want to see it, then we have to throw that whoel aspect of the hobby out the window. I would much rather see the rare and endangered animals fetching the prices that morphs do. Why should mother natures truest creations be so mcuh less than the - for lack of better words - freaks??? I'm not one to complain about price, alot of Canadians seem to like the cheap snakes. I for one don't say "it's too expensive!" I say "I cannot afford it right now". But come one, I don't see why a pattern or colour variation should fetch as much as a house does!
I guess YOU didn't really think about that did YOU?

[Jeff_Favelle]

So you want the rare, endangered species to fetch higher prices? That's a scary concept. What would happen then? Poaching? Raping of the wild for the last remaining specimens? No thanks. Not on my planet.

As for more work, maybe not. But more risk? Definitely. If you have the only morph in existence and it dies, then that morph goes extinct. But what if you have a normal Ball Python die? Well just go get another $6 animal from the wholesaler. No big deal. No risk, no gain.

And mother nature created alot of the framework for these mutations. DNA is natural. Its not like we're painting them with acrylic paint and calling them a new animal. The DNA existed, its just being combined and refined, not changed.

You want to know why "mother nature's truest creations" are soooo much less? Its because they are imported by the thousands for pennies. You see, morphs are usually guaranteed to be captive bred (a good thing right?) so you know what you're getting. Lace monitors are going for $15,000 Us at the Goanna Ranch. These aren't Piebald. They aren't albino. They aren't Pastel. So its not ALL morphs that are commanding the high prices. Its supply and demand. If there isn't a heck of alot of something, and people WANT it, then who gets it? Well, whoever pays the most. If there is 5 spider Balls in the world, and 250,000 people want them, how do you divy it up? I'd be interested in how YOU'D decide who gets to have them. REAL interested.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Who's rubbing it your face? I don't get it? Are people taunting you for having normal animals? Ha ha!! Are they waving normal animals in front of your face and laughing at you? LOL! 'Cause yeah, I guess that would suck.

If people are spewing BS, regardless if they share the same interests/hobbies, then just ignore them. I ignore a LOT of things in this hobby. Remember when people said that 140F is too high of a hotspot for a monitor? Yeah, those were funny times. I don't like Burms, Rocks, or Retics in captivity, but I don't stress about it every day. I don't think people should have such large animals as their needs are probably not met by 90% of the keepers out there. But that doesn't mean I don't frequent the Python forums, or avoid talking to Corey Woods because he breeds Burms. I'm just happy that there's people out there that share the same interests. And if it wasn't for a lot of the morphs, WE wouldn't have the husbandry techniques and knowledge we have today. I'm thankful for all the money that's flying around. Its getting people interested. Its creating new markets. More people are starting to LIKE reptiles (not a bad thing).

[Jeff_Favelle]

Can you direct me to those $30,000 houses? 'Cause that would make my mortgage down to like, $200 a month! That would be waaayyy cool.

[tai_pan1]

Jeff, I disagree to a point on the "cheap" snakes. I love snakes, and find the corns to be great snakes. If not for their $20-$40 price range, I probably wouldn't own any. I now have the opportunity (since they were cheap) to introduce my children to snakes and develop a healthy resepct for them. This doesn't just go for snakes, this year our "science project" was raising tadpoles into bullfrogs. For a dollar a piece, I bought two tadpoles and my children got to observe first hand the metamorpasis that takes place from tadpole to frog. These are lessons that I believe they will keep with them forever. If the price wasn't affordable for me, they would miss out on it.
Just my thoughts.

Mike

[Jeff_Favelle]

Of course. But tell that to the millions of green iguannas that get abandoned in alleys or set loose in the local forest (in the WINTER time). Or to the thousands of leos and corns that die because people don't know how to keep them. Remember the red-eared slider craze? How many poor animals perished THAT decade? I don't even want to think about it. I'm all for affordable animals for everyone, but that doesn't mean every single animal should be one price. If I had no other snakes, I could produce 2000 baby corns in a single year. How fair is that to the baby corns? They would be treated like dry-goods. Now, if I produced 4 piebald Ball Pythons (same dollar value) do you think that those 4 pythons would have a bad captive life? Ummm...I doubt it.

I'm not saying that NOBODY has EVER enjoyed a $20 animal. That would be absurd for me to say. All I'm saying is, what about the other 95% of the $20 animals that got neglected? Who's giving a rat's a$$ about them? Nobody is. And that's sad. They cease to have monetary value so they cease to have intrinsic value (in our eyes), and that's NOT a good thing. Just because its easy as dirt to breed something, doesn't mean that they should be.

I never said that corns weren't great snakes. Red Rat Snakes are awesome! They are alert, great feeders and look awesome! But just because you took care of them and introduced them to your family, does not mean that the rest of the world will follow suit. So out of the 300,000 corns (not a real number, just for sake of arguement) produced every year, maybe 10,000 go to good homes where people do everything they can for them because they like living things. What happens to the other 290,000 corns? I don't want to know.

[Katt]

Jeff, I agree with a lot with what your saying, but I think you're getting a tad worked up.

I'm a morpher, I don't like the high prices, but you know what PEOPLE WILL PAY, and yes, it is money talking, but it happens with everything. Look at dogs and cats, that sickens me. Breeding dogs and cats, but people do it. I just do my part by NOT BUYING. I will of course pay for a morph that's affordable to me because I want it, it's pretty it's nice and I like it!

Some morphs are just nutz, ie ball pythons, but you know, that seems to be just ball pythons, other morphs, like those in corn snakes, are pretty clear cut.

Although I don't see why just cuz a snake is cheap, you won't touch it Jeff. I love my corns. Most I paid more than $20 for. Actually my high end corns, my blood reds, were the cheapest corns I ever bought!

Anyways, I like natural phases too, but I think the morphs are pleasing to the eye.

I'm not sure where rubbing in the faces come from. I enjoy the bp ads actually. They're funny.

This has come up in many a forum. A lot of people say it's because people are jealous and resent that they can't afford said animal. I agree, I've been there, I've been jealous and resentful, but that's the market folkz!

[crimsonking]

Why are there so many makes, models, and colors of the automobile? Of the toothbrush? Of furniture?........ Not everyone likes or wants the same thing.To me if we're not taking any animals from wild populations for these "projects" that is a good thing. A good bet is that a high percentage of the "normal" snakes in captivity are far from that-- with many carrying a "skeleton in the (gene) closet. There are some morphs that I don't find appealing, but others do. If not for what they represent (and look like) now,then what they represent for future breedings. I will always find it hard to beat a normal cornsnake in all of mother nature's beauty. She's been doing a pretty good job!! Have you noticed all the names that refer to food and/or its color? Licorice,butter, creamsicle,candycane, rootbeer,etc. When they get to devil's food or snickers-- I'm in!!
Mark

[lanalizard]

this thread is starting to get hilarious..i just think that, yes, i may not have the money to buy one of those 16, 000$ ball pythons..and i HIGHLY doubt that more than 5 people will wanna buy that snake morph...but i think that the higher the price, the more ridiculous.
yes, color morphs is what keeps the snake industry from being dull and boring with one normal color...but doesn't anyone respect that sometimes the natural color is the best out of them all and should be the ones costing 16,000$?
maybe i am losing my mind..but at least i have respect for the normal ones.

[morph]

i myself would have to totally agree with jeff i think that what he said was well written, and written, and written, and written.i myself would like one of those 30000 dollar homes please i wouldn't still have a mortage thus freeing up more money to buy uhoh MORPHS!!!!

everybody take a deep breath
scott

[Jeff_Favelle]

Great post Katt. A few observations........

See again we're consumed with what WE'D buy and what WE think is expensive. But whatever snakes are out of our price range, may not be in someone else's. We may never see 30 grand cash, but alot of people do. Its all relative and to call a price of something absurd simply because we cannot afford it is silly (IMO). Just because something looks so extravagant and overly priced in your eyes, it doesn't mean that it looks the EXACT same way in everyone else's eyes.

I'm not getting worked up. Unless of course stating my opinion is getting worked up? Ha ha... JK!

[Jeff_Favelle]

I fail to see where anybody said that they didn't "respect normals"?

[Jeff_Favelle]

I don't understand the competing arguments? We have one person saying that normals should be the ones that are $16,000 (impossible until they ban WC imports) and another saying that no snakes are worth that much? What is the real argument at hand because those are two VERY different statements by the same person and I would rather just argue out one point first.

Just curious.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Hey where'd everybody go?

[Jeff_Favelle]

Here I am, throwing shadow punches.






:D

[Jeff_Favelle]

Ok people there are 47 users online, let's argue!!!!!!!!!!!!!





:D

[jason h]

I think that when we talk about morphs and there high prices, It is this high price that keeps them in demand to some extent if everyone could aford that 16000 dollar ball python then it would quickly reduse the price ( you can bet that first clutch of albino burmese pythons didnt cost no 300 bucks each as they do now)its like a Harely davidson because they cost an outrageous price is what keeps it one of the top selling bikes and "THE" most popular on the market, thus making it one of the most sought after,of course this is mho.

[Jeff_Favelle]

EXACTLY Jason.

[Katt]

When I first started with snakes, albino burms from Henry P cost $125. Now they are $250. Somethings weird here people! I've noticed that with a lot of stuff, that bothers me, and what really bothers me, is bp prices for NORMALS! Jeez, last year they were like $80 - $100!! Now it's $150 for a normal MALE! Yeesh!

[jason h]

thats cause there more in demand now because ppl are buying them up to breed to there morphs j/k lol:D

[morph]

ok im back jeff lets go!!!! oh wait i agree with you one of these times i wont though and look i can peck out at least ten words a minute.

[tai_pan1]

I see your point, and agree whole heartedly. I suppose that the best we can do is take care of our animals, and inform others of the abuses that happen to the "pet store" animals. I think that it is probably a lack of education that leads to the problems.

[lance]

lots of good points but i believe tia pan hs the best solution

[tai_pan1]

Thanks Lance! Hey, where did Jeff go?

[jsnake0]

ok for my two cents worth
1. I will not pay more for any "pet" then my rent
2. I will pay for something i like but the not through the nose

i think jeff is way wrong just because a pet is cheep does not
mean everybody just thinks of them as disposable
i would not have any pets if every one cost a arm and a leg
i take very good care of my "pets" for one they eat better then
me they always get food no matter how broke i am they always
have a place to live even if i can't afford to rent

the cost of any animal is not what you pay for it, that is cheep.
it is the contiuned care and love you give the animal which is
expensive

i have raised animals for food and if you spend more on the animal then it costs to sell you lose money you can't afford to live
farmers are not rich but they still take care and love their animals

ok so there was my 2 cents
i am glad that corns are cheep that way i can have different ones and each one is like a different kind of snake

[morph]

he said alot of people view them as disposable not all in fact most people that frequent a reptile site wouldnt find animals disposable its the people that see it in a store and think oh its only 20$ and it looks neat that is until a couple months later and its just a pain too feed and keep clean.

scottt

[Jeff_Favelle]

Uh oh. Morph agrees with me, I better rethink my arguments.




JK


:D

[Jeff_Favelle]

Ok jsnake0, I'll reiterate yet again.

Again, you're thinking in terms if "me" and "I". That's great if you look after you animals. I didn't say that you wouldn't keep good care of your snakes, regardless of cost. But again, that's just you. I've been into the snake-thing since '91 and I've seen all the horror crap man. Just because YOU say you don't neglect your corns because they are inexpensive, doesn't mean that no one else does. And just because I say I can't house a Burm/Retic/Rock properly so I won't have one, doesn't mean that other people are as sensible/compassionate. They aren't and I've SEEN it. The industry has created disposable animals whether you like it or not. I hate it, and I'm passing on my observations to you, whether you believe me or not.


tai_pan1 had a great point and that's just to educate people. Only problem is people will be cruel no matter how much they "know". That's the significance of the cost of the animal. People would not be cruel to a $5,000 animal as that would be "cruel" to themselves, ha ha!

And Morph is right. Most people here don't buy from petstores. They've moved on from that sort of thing. Its the people that don't know anything about reptiles and can actually OWN one for a pitence that I'm talking about. Not the people at this site. I don't like that and no matter how much people tell me they look after their corn snakes, it won't change the fact that anyone with NO knowledge or scruples can buy a snake for pennies. Then, when feeding it live mice ceases to be fun and exciting, what happens to the snake? Who cares? It only cost twenty bucks. I make that in an hour. See my point? Just like pirannahs and Oscars. How many 8 year olds got those just to see them eat live fish? I know I did. I wish I didn't have that opportunity.

[stormyva]

IMHO Morphs are a bad thing!
They are taking a genetic defect and exploiting it to produce gentically inferior animals. It also promotes inbreeding which further declines the genetic pool.

As far as the higher prices sure... I can understand that. First off it is hard to find the genetic trait and then it has to bred out to isolate it and increase the probability of producing that trait in offspring. So it is more work.
If people want to waste their money on a genetically inferior animal with no proven record for life span and overall health then great. As for me I will stick with my $25.00 cb ball python or my $99.00 cb BCI.

[tai_pan1]

Morphs are not genetic "defects" any more than people with blue eyes are genetic "defects". Nature naturally produces dominant and recessive genes. Thousands of years ago, someone with blonde hair, blue eyes, and fair skin would have had a difficult time surviving in sub saharan africa, however they were well suited for survival in Iceland. Nature provides for these dominant and recessive genes to ensure the viability and survivability of a species, and allow for expansion of a species range.

[P.curtus]

I have to say I completeley agree with everything Jeff Favelle has been saying on this subject. I love morphs and think they're the reason our hobby is so mainstream. As for the people talking about hi prices of morphs, I think you're failing to realize that when you see a 16,000 ball python this considered an "investment quality" animal. Nobody is expected to pay that kind of money for a pet. This is what you call an immature market, it's not meant to be available to everybody.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Exactly!! Thank you!! The snakes over $10,000 are not really available to the general public yet, although anyone could buy them. They are for other breeders until they are firmly established in the undustry.

[Jeff_Favelle]

See? This is why Burms should cost a little more. It would weed out these individuals right away and the die hards would still get them anyways.

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6175

[Cas]

Personally, I like morphs... but then, I like genetics in general. And, while I may like them, if I ever find myself making a choice between "that snake" and "that car", well, something's wrong (that's why I like cornsnakes... easy to keep, and all the morphs stay within a reasonable price range.) :)

I think one way to look at those 'high end' morphs (for example, ball pythons) is that producing those very expensive animals brings in a cash flow for those breeders, who can then afford to work on other projects (consider that it would be hard for most people to even break even just raising normal bp's, since the wild caughts are still coming in a whole lot cheaper - and the 'average consumer' doesn't know any better than to buy a wild caught animal), like normals. In some cases , those ridiculously expensive animals are helping further the captive breeding of their normal counterparts. Or, the breeders can then fund projects with rarer but less in demand or more difficult snakes, and possibly discover proper husbandry techniques for those species to make them easier to keep and more available.

My $0.02
Dawn

[eyespy]

What bothers me most about high-end morphs is that the high price tag encourages so-called breeders (actually newbies who think they can exploit animals and make a quick buck) from jumping into the marketplace.

Once they don't achieve the colors they were after and find out how expensive it is to house and feed and heat all the offspring, those babies suffer horribly. They are neglected, overcrowded, dumped in an unsuitable climate where they are also at risk of transmitting or catching disease via the local herp population, or even euthanized.

Rescues are filled with this sort of thing and the needy keep growing in numbers.

The Humane Society here in the US is way out of control in their statements about keeping and selling reptiles, but sometimes I wish that some of their points were taken into consideration. It is my belief that herps should not be so readily available to pet stores and newbie breeders looking to make a few quick bucks at their expense. There should be some sort of a licensing procedure where the dealer must show a knowledge of general herp husbandry first. Unfortunately, most of the folks in animal control would need to learn a fair bit in order to administer the test. :-(

Jeff is right in that the low price tags of some truly beautiful "normal" animals greatly contributes to the suffering of herps at the hands of folks who buy on impulse. If folks had to seek out a qualified reptile specialty store or breeder first, they would be less likely to buy something that they cannot or just plain will not keep humanely.

[Tim_Cranwill]

I'd have to say that it is kinda nice to be able to get snakes for pretty cheap for all of us, but Jeff is right about the people who wouldn't care if their $20 pet lives or dies.

As for morphs, they are here. If you like them, buy them. If you don't, then don't. It shouldn't need to be more complicated than that. Nobody is going to change anyone else's mind on the subject. It's as useless as arguing about what our favorite colors are.

p.s. stormyva, where can I get some of those $25 cb balls you were talking about??;)

[Lisa]

I've seen some of the more expensive snakes being mistreated, so the price of the snake doesn't garrantee that a snake will be treated right although you will probably be less likely to find a 10K snake being mistreated.

Personally I like most normals, and slight variations of normals better then a morph, so that's what we buy.
The reason you see morphs going for so much more then a normal is that the morph is rare.

It's like a coin, a double stamped coin doesn't look any better then a regular coin but it's worth a heck of alot more to a collector then a normal coin.

People collect things for different reasons, who cares why they collect as long as they take care of their collection properly.

[paul_le_snake]

well i first started this thread, and i only once saw a reply about anything i'd written. unfortunatly this thread was hijacked by ppl talking about the monetry cost of animals. i only mentioned the prices due to the ridiculous ways that ppl are trying to outdo everyone else by paying top dollar for a rotten looking animal. what did my post have to do with the cost of "cheap" cornsnakes???if it wasn't for the cornsnake thousands of reptile keepers would never have been. just because they are easy to keep and breed means that alot of todays top breeders probably wouldn't be able to sell animals at all coz no-one would have an interest in the life cycle of snakes. why do ppl get bent out of shape when someone claims to be the first breeder of albino ball pythons in canada????? it's a ball python! just coz it cost a load more doesn't and should never mean it's more important than it's natural counterpart. ok so jeff, u've been in the snake thing since '91, so? i've been in the snake thing a hell of a lot longer but that doesnt give me the right to shootdown other ppls opinion, and after all this thread was just my opinion. if ppl r stupid enough (In my opinion) to by a sanke that looks like faeces to me then fair shout. waste ur money on a pet, see if i care. there is nothing wrong from profiting from breeding snakes. anyone breed snakes and give them away??????
last point (for tonight) bob clarke paid $150000 for a leaucistic ball python. y? bragging rights? perhaps we should be looking at why ppl want these mutants.
have fun!
paul

[lanalizard]

ok what i meant in the previous post about jeff saying that the same person stating normals should be 16,000 and then stating that no snake shoudl be that much...what i meant was..
IF a snake had to be that much, the normals should be the 16,000 ones.

[paul_le_snake]

well said lana.

[snakedude_03]

holy.. u people have ALOT to say about this..cant finish reading!

[paul_le_snake]

well said lana.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Not meaning to stray from the "Almighty Thread of Opinion", but if you care so little about what people buy/are interested in, why make a post on the topic in the first place?

Sorry, but my little brain can't comprehend the reason.

You still haven't answered my question about how the "true" Labrynth Pythons (whatever that is) in England were magically tainted in the zoo from ones 1000's of miles away in N. America that were outbred to Burms. 'Cause I found that fascinating.

[paul_le_snake]

all i ever said was that the labyrinth pythons in the uk never bred, therefore not being able to reproduce progeny (babies) The guy in america had the same difficulty (problem) and bred them with a p.m bivitattus (burmese python), and after that the burmese genes became more and more reproduced.
i started this thread to voice an opinion, if u don't agree with that opinion, fair enough, you don't have to try and force ur opinions on the rest of us!

[Jeff_Favelle]

Magical Labrynth Pythons aside, the part I REALLY don't get is that you post here asking what the big deal was with color morphs, I then point out several reasons, and then you post back chastising me for expressing my opinion. And THEN, you say that you were just voicing your opinion. But that's exactly what I was doing!! Don't you see how hypocritical that is?? Its like the little kid that says his piece and then plugs his ears so that no one can retort what he said!

Wow! So much for debate. I thought it was going to be fun. Now its just lame. I guess I have to put in another 11 years of reptile husbandry until I can have an opinion.

:D

[tai_pan1]

Everyone take a deep breath and relax! Jeff, your opinion is always appreciated.

[paul_le_snake]

jeff u amaze me, u first started hypocrising in ur first post saying that the thought of a $20 snake sickens u, but then u state that if the snake costs, say, $5000 it would be better looked after. so what r u saying was ur first snake "worth" $5000?

[paul_le_snake]

yeah right, jeff. i'm so deaf that i'm replying to u. easy tiger

[Jeff_Favelle]

Ummm yeah. I can't really voice stuff if you're gonna read between the lines like that. If you read my piece carefully, all I said was that the mass-production of cheaper animals (corns was an example) didn't sit well with me. I didn't like the fact that a 5 year old could breed these things. I never said they were bad animals. I just said that I didn't like the assembly-line production of these animals whose monetary value has fallen below their intrinsic value. I don't see how you could possible muck that thought up, but you did.

No, my first snake wasn't $5,000. I don't even OWN a $5,000 snake. My first snake was a WC Texas Rat. That doesn't mean I support WC now!! I don't get your connection there? Unless you're trying to wonder out loud why I can get a cheap snake for MY first snake but that I don't like it when everyone else does. That's a tough "question", and I thank you for "asking" it. Truth is, I don't know. I don't like the mass production of animals that a monkey could breed. I don't know why and I'm not going to ponder why. I just do.

As for the original thread, well I think that's lost now. I think you were basically asking why everyone likes something that you don't and why do they make a big deal about it. Well, I really should have taken the post for what it was and not replied at all. Its like me asking why does everyone like Porsches, which in my opinion, are glorified VW Beetles? Its doesn't matter why they like them, they just do. Its my fault for replying to an obvious thread that was not a question (even though it was posted like one) and rather, an opinion. I've learned something and that a good thing.

:D

[SKULL]

Morphs are great!! If you could afford them:)

[Zhakrin]

My problem with all this is that we are comparing normals (pet quality) and Morphs (Investment quality) animals when they are completely two different things.

Unless your bill gates or have Obsessive-compulsive disorder your not going to buy a $10,000 snake, so that your 8 year old has something for Show-n-tell.

The high priced snakes are primarily for the people that intend to breed. This is the main market for these animals.

If junior tells Dad that he wants a snake for christmas, or a person decides that now they can finally get the snake they always wanted, well this is were the market is for Normals or low cost morphs.

Both Normals and Morphs have their markets. If someone can afford and wants a 5000 dollar albino then heck go for it. However, the big thing that Morphs do is produce Hets and Possible Hets.

If someone loves snakes and really, really wants that albino but does not have the money, then they buy a het and some poss. hets and wow they can produce a high end animal.

Bottom line here is that the high end morphs and normals each have a market and serve a purpose.

Normals are afordable to the average herper, who may not wish to breed them.

Morphs attract the commerical/hobby breeders who refine and develop better husbandry techniques which adds to body of knowledge in Herperculture.

IMHO its a win-win situation.

As for the people that buy the low cost herps and abuse or neglect them, unfortunately this is almost a stupid thing to debate. You will find idoits and unprepared buyers everywhere. Cats, dogs, birds, snakes, kids,everything that exisits that depends (volintarily or involintarily) on humans is in a situation to be abused.

Society has tried to find a "Magic" cure for child abuse, basic human stupidity, ignorance, animal crulety and more and...you know what? THERE IS NO "MAGIC" cure.

So saying that by making all herps a thousand dollars will prevent abusive people from buying them...it wont. As long as human live on this planet, there will be creatures who are made to suffer, due to cruelity or ignorance, this is the unfortunate reality of life.

All we can do is educate people, maintain our collections properly and thank GOD for every RESCUE organization out there.

Anyway, I just hit a couple issues previously stated.

My 2 Cents.

[tai_pan1]

very well said!

[Tim_Cranwill]

Yes! Well said indeed! Now maybe this thread/pitiful argument can be laid to rest. ;)

[eyespy]

Zhakrin, your 2 cents are worth several dollars at least!! Well said.

[P.curtus]

"last point (for tonight) bob clarke paid $150000 for a leaucistic ball python. y? bragging rights? perhaps we should be looking at why ppl want these mutants.
have fun!
paul"

First off, I'm 99% sure that Bob Clark does not own a leusistic ball python, I believe you're confusing him with Pete Kahl. Second, for you to suggest that either of these two guys paid 150 grand for a snake for bragging rights is stupidest thing I've ever read. It's business. They breed snakes and sell them, maybe you've heard of this strange phenomenon.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Yeah, and its not like Pete has even really posted any pics of it either. He's keeping it quite hush hush. I don't think he had any intentions of bragging at all. He hardly ever posts, yet sells more piebalds than anyone every year.

[Big Mike]

I agree with P.curtus...they are $16,000 because they are an investment and someone could buy them and breed them. Then sell them for what ever price they can get.

I like to look at some of these morphs and I would buy an albino ball if it were cheep. I'd want it for a pet, not an investment so why should I have to pay $2000.

I think that some people set the price of their morphs at a level where only other high end morphers will buy them. This allows them to keep track of where there morph line goes. How many times have you read "_______ from the _______ line"? Big deal. If they were cheeper, then everyone would buy them and breed them and put the high end morpher out of bussiness. I understand wanting to keep your bussiness but you are also on the top of a pyramid and people on the bottom will not be happy.

Remember in the late 80's - early 90's...sports card shops were on every corner. Where are they now? The morph market will crash sooner or later. I'll just wait for my <$200 albino ball to come around.

[Zhakrin]

Sorry big Mike,

A $200 dollar ball python will not be happening any time soon, if ever.

One of the main reasons BP morphs are so expensive is because unlike the Burmese, who lay 60-80 eags/clutch, the BP only produces 4-10. This keeps the supply low and the prices high.

also in general BPs are in a lot more high demand that the huge burmese.

[Big Mike]

I get your point, but are you getting mine?

It may not happen soon, but I think the price will drop by 75% in the next 4-6 years.

Yes balls do have much smaller clutches than burms, but how many people have the resources to breed burms? Not many compared to how many 12 year old kids could breed Balls.

That high demand you speak of is what's going to raise the number of breeders to the point to where the price has to drop. Simple economics.

[P.curtus]

I personally don't see abinos or any other bp morphs dropping below the area of 750$, due to their small cluthc size. Simply because of the expense involved in large scale breeding projects.

Just imagine you have a ball python that lays 4 eggs a year, if you're getting $200 each its not enough you'll spend more than that feeding and heating not to mention the time involved. This is why you don't see cb normals.

[Quervo]

Holy Crap !!!! This thread exploded. :eek:

I missed a chance to rant .. Oh no.

Okay .. good points were made by all, but here's my input.

Jeff .. buddy ... chill. I have to disagree somewhat with your $20 gecko analogy. People don't rate their pets worth by its price .... hmmm .. no, let me rephrase that. People SHOULDN'T equate a pets worth by its price. What is missing in this whole equation is education. The more we can educate people about these animals, the more people will respect them (well, I can dream).
Oh .. and your $30,000 house .. its called a mobile home .. or a floating home .. take your pick. :cool: .. I think whoever originally posted that was using that wonderful ranting tool called exaggeration.

As to the morph thing .. I tend to agree with Linds .. but only because I look at what has happened with the other animals we have "played" with .. I keep seeing the sphinx cat .. morphing gets carried to a (in my opinion) criminal level. People don't know where to draw the line, and I would hate to see that happen to a reptile.

Think of the snakes .. for gods sake, won't someone think of the snakes.
Oh .. sorry, slipped into movie trivia there.

So there .. a good rant was had by all. :D

[Jeff_Favelle]

Well, we can say that people should do this and people shouldn't do that until we're blue in the face, but will it matter? It may. Educating (however THAT can be accomplished) may help. Or will it? Sure it'll help the people that genuinely care for living creatures, and that's great. But there's a wealth of information out there now inundating people's brains, yet abuse still happens. Why is that? Could disposable animals have anything to do with it? Umm...probably. Do you think that at any given expo, 2,000 kids would walk home with a corn snake if they cost $500? I doubt it. Do you think that millions of red-eared sliders would have perished in the 80's if everyone had to pay $200 for them? I doubt it. What about all those poor green iguannas? I still don't see how you can eliminate price from how ignorant people acquire and care for their animals. Maybe my brain is too tiny to comprehend that notion. Please explain.

However, there does have to be a reptile available for everyone, doesn't there? I mean, there's no reason that someone shouldn't completely own another living thing's existence just because they don't have the moolah right? Hmmm...that's a toughie. I'm stumped, but does that even matter? I mean, just because I don't like something, doesn't mean its going to change, or that its even bad in the first place! I just wish that people treated stuff the way they want to be treated themselves.

Wow, this thread sure got hijacked eh? Sorry Paul! Maybe we should move this thread (if people still even WANT to talk about it)?


I don't understand why I have to chill? I'm not yelling or swearing? Is it because my replies are more than a sentence? Is it because they are thought-out and coherent (ha ha, JK)? Fine, I'll go back to aloof, 1-sentence replies where no one gains any insight. :D

OK, now about the price of Ball Pythons dropping in the near future. Umm....not going to happen. The herp crash already happened in the mid 90's and we're not going to experience another for a while. It crashed because people over bred everything and then there was nothing new. Well, now we have morphs and some of the combos aren't even going to be realized for another 20 years!! No herp crash, trust me. Hockey cards? Yeah. Can't compare. You see, Opee chee (sp?) could produce as many cards as they wanted to, but breeders can only produce as many snakes as the snakes themselves want to. Its the only industry where one is not worried about selling and only worried about producing. Most industries, you produce a product and that's the easy part. The hard part is to sell your product. Not really the case with reptiles. Right?

Ok, anything else? This is my last good reply (opinion, ha ha), and then its back to my usual drivel.....

[nyx]

Read through the thread, and now I'm curious: Paul, why have you set yourself up as the judge of beauty? Surely you see that price, like everything else, is relative; my coworkers thought I was insane for spending $400 on a pair of snakes, and I thought they were insane for spending $10,000 to rebuild a classic car. It's the value it has to the hobbyist, and that is entirely personal. And as long as hobbyists are willing to pay $10,000 for a snake, then that's really their business and nobody else's.
I do understand that you're concerned that purebred wild-types will become extinct via the quick and dirty method of producing offspring - i.e. breeding with another subspecies - but the people who are producing the expensive ball pythons are by and large not creating hybrids in order to fuel the morph trade. They inbreed, they linebreed, they crossbreed with other lines - but it's all the same species. Do I think of these snakes as freaks? No. I don't think of them as defects either - the snakes can see, can eat, can breed, can function normally as snakes need to do. Responsible breeders outcross the line for strength once the trait is firmly established.
As for disposable pets - I would say that it is a cultural failing to consider anything cheap as "disposable", including animals when they don't suit your lifestyle. How many cats end up in shelters because they clawed couches? How many dogs end up in the incinerator because they marked territory out of place? It's not limited to snakes. And the rich don't have much more consideration for an animal than the poor, as a group; you <i>might</i> get some reluctance to toss out a cat that cost $1,000, but somehow, I doubt that - after all, if you can afford one in the first place, you can afford another one, and best to replace the cat than have to replace all that expensive furniture it clawed up.

I don't know if you CAN educate against this mindset. We all subconsciously own it, and it's reinforced by media images every day. It's not a matter of reptiles, or even animals; it's a deep-seated urge for the quick and easy.

Er, back to your regularly scheduled morph-beating.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Yeah, you're completely right nyx! It doesn't matter how much dough someone has, they can still be cruel and neglecting. But would it happen on the scale that its happening now if there were NO $20 animals? But then a lot of great herpers would miss out on owning some animals. Yeah, I guess its just something that's always going to be there.

Great insight into the morph thing. Well-written too. Thanks!

:D

[Big Mike]

I've been thinking about it and maybe the prices of BP morphs (for example) will not come down because of over abundance in the market. Leopard Geckos maybe.

Does anyone think that questionable morphs will hurt the market or help it. For example...pastel balls, is anything with a slight color change considered a morph now? Sure it's proven to be genetic but come on. Sure they look nice, but not as nice as a normal (IMHO) so when people are showing them off...all I see is people looking to show off their investment potential. Look at my big bag of money...(if I can find a sucker to buy it for $5000)

OK, I'm ranting and I apologize.

People will do what they want with their money...I don't have to buy anything I don't want to.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Big Mike,

(man, I'm spending my WHOLE half-day off here!! ha ha).

Yeah, the borderline morphs aren't helping anyone, let alone the industry, but they'll peter out hopefully. I mean, anyone serious about investing huge amounts of dough into a reptile venture is probably going to research things a little bit and be directed towards legit people/morphs. So the people who are mislabelling Balls aren't helping the industry, but they aren't killing it either.

As for pastels, I totally thought that they were a "pseudo-morph" too!!! The ones I saw were just pretty normals and some weren't even pretty!!! But those were early and unproven lines and if you've ever seen one from the 2 "good" lines (Graziani and NERD Lemon) then you would know they are the real deal. If you have to look twice to see if its a pastel, its either from the other 2 ugly lines, or its not a pastel. The real borderline morph is axanthics. I wouldn't touch those things, especially at the price they are at.

As for the prices dropping, Leos will drop every day that the sun comes up. I'm surprised that some are still priced so high. But Balls are here to stay. People are getting out of stocks and investing in Ball Pythons, that's how serious it is!! Returns of 1000% are not uncommon and almost expected! How long would it take a blue-chip stock to return 1000% of the principle? Well, at 20% return (HEFTY return) that would take 50 years!! Yeah. Crazy eh? ok, now I'M ranting, ha ha!! Talk to you later man!

[Jeff_Favelle]

Ok, not to beat a dead horse...but here's an exerpt from an excellent Boa website:



As a result, it is becoming increasingly difficult to sell crossbred boas, as the demand for such animals is decreasing.

For instance, if you acquire a pair of crossbred Boa constrictor for the purpose of propagation, you must consider the possibility of being unable to sell the offspring later on. Many breeders in that situation then turn to pet stores. For that reason, you cannot be certain that they will take your animals even there. Crossbred boas pretty much fetch the lowest sales price of all boas and pythons anyways.

You may now ask yourself why we are talking about money. Very simple: As consulting authorities for the district councils in Bavaria, we are regularly consulted for inventory and facility evaluations. In our experience, it is ALWAYS the “cheap snakes” (please excuse this terminology; it is not regarding the quality, but the monetary value of the animal) that are kept in the worst of conditions. The majority of these snakes were purchased at pet stores for relatively little money. Because of the low purchase price, the buyer does not put a lot of considerations into the needs of the animals, going by the motto: “If that thing dies, there won’t be much money lost”.

We are by no means saying that all keepers of inexpensive boas and pythons keep their animals in bad conditions. It is simply a fact that all those poor creatures without a suitable enclosure, whose keeper had never even purchased a book to familiarize himself/herself with its husbandry requirements, were all “cheap snakes” (e.g. crossbred boas, ball pythons, Burmese pythons).

Therefore, if you give a litter of crossbred animals to a pet store, you can be certain that some of these poor creatures will not survive their first year of life due to the insufficient care by their future keeper. Would you like that? Again, the following sentence applies: “The responsibility of the breeder is often underestimated.”

[Syst3m]

Gotta get in on it. Morphs are good and bad IMHO.
I like the different varietys of snakes and will probably sell everything I own in order to get an Albino brazilian rainbow boa when they are found/bred. But thats just me, I really fancy the albinos and think that albino brazilians are just going to be crazy looking :)

On the other hand I think morph madness is out of control. But then again, thats just me. Just because I don't want something doesn't mean that someone else doesn't. All though I would like to see some of the rainbow boa morphs come down in price, the risk and effort the breeders put into producing those snakes, very much like with ball pythons who have small clutches where prices are so high. There is an amount of respect that should be had. I'd still like a pair of albino ball pythons. I just can't afford them. To each their own. And best of luck to all those who breed.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Ok, don't you know the rule Syst3m?? I get to have the last post here! Ha ha, JK man. I was wondering when you were gonna post.

And don't even get me STARTED on the albino BRB's!! My whole life is dedicated to those things if and when they exist!!

[Lisa]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
And don't even get me STARTED on the albino BRB's!! My whole life is dedicated to those things if and when they exist!!


You know the regular BRB's are so pretty I never even considered the posibility of a morph.

[Jeff_Favelle]

No kidding eh Lisa? Favorite snake, by far!!

Oh yeah, and since being bitten last week, your avatar freaks the he!! out of me everytime I see it out of the corner of my eye!! LOL!!

[Syst3m]

Brazilians are what got me to keep snakes again. Your about the only person I know who is more excited then me about the possibility of a albino brazilian Jeff. Oh and sorry for ousting you from the last post.. again.

Uh oh... I think I have morph madness Jeff better put me to sleep before I get out of control ;)

[Dom]

Alright after spending my whole mornign reading this whole thread ..


Heres my oppinion .. hmm where to start ..

How about the cheap animals .. .. My cheapest snake is actually my rock.. I paid a little under 100$ for him?? Does that mean he will be neglected ...

NO - On the contrary this snake is by far MY FAVORITE OF ALL. Money has nothing to do with it .. A child who would own a expensive or cheap animal would care for it the same way.

ALTHOPUGH .. I do see you point .. Since we receive the typical Rescues as red eared sliders, iguanas, burms.. all the time, their cheap price tags simply increases their chances of a deplorable lifestyle..

[Dom]

As for the whole Morph thing .. I LOVE MORPH .. A nicecalico retic .. WOW .. i wish i could offord it but its not a pet it is meant for an investment ..

All animals are derived by mutations .. thats how dversity happens .. the only problem with morphs is that generally in the wild many of these mutations would be selected agains and die off because of poor adaptability. Its survival fo the fittest and unfortunetly we are leaving the weaker survive.

But in the end here is the reason why I LOVE MORPHS .. because its almost garanteed to be a CB .. Wich in the end FOR ME - is all that matters.

I own one morph, and its a SNOW bull snake, actually a ready to breed pair of snow bulls .. I personally LOVE the idea of know I am one if the only ones in canada to own such snakes... (athough quite rampant in US) To me these are more of an investment then anything else.

Its nice to know that for once after putting so much money in my animals, I might have a chance to see some back ..

[Dom]

on an other note .. lets say I succesfully breed a normal corn .. yeah .. do you think that it will pay for the money invested in them ..


I have probably spent around the 10 thousnad dollars in all my animals since I have started this hobby and might have about 3000 $ worth of snakes and enclosures to show for it ..

I might of sold mayby for 500$ worth of animals .. Did I make any money? Far from none but MORPHS are the answer .. Thats is a solution to actually making money in my oppion .. or mass breeding always works as well..

Anyway .. Just my thoughts on all of this .. I have tons more to say but Ill keep it for later

Ciao all

Dom

[P.curtus]

I'd be interested in your snow bull offspring, let me know how that works out.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Just a question Dom:


When was the last time you saw a rescue Blackhead python? Or perhaps a rescue Piebald Ball Python? What about an abandoned mite-phase Chondro? Or maybe an abused Kimberly Rock? No?

Now why do you think that is Dom?

Just curious...

[Dom]

lol cause why would some one start neglecting such an animal when all they can do is sell it and make a fortune out of it .. whats ure point though Jeff? i agree with many points you've made .. it is unfortunate that low ends animals get neglected..

But many do find good homes.

Dom

[Dom]

p.Curtus:

If ever i do succesfully breed them .. beleive me Ill let u know! I wish i wish i wish!

There lil beauties too ..

[Jeff_Favelle]

Pines are great!! I wish I has some space for them. Verrryy impressive animals, good luck Dom!!


Yeah, it sucks that ANY animal gets neglected. I mean, just because it costs more, doesn't mean it worth more to the planet. Its a very bad world we live in. Heck, look how much people with the SAME passions and hobby can argue to the point of hating each other!! That's a crazy thought eh? Oh well.

[Dom]

Don't Worry Jeff We still love you lol

(there bulls too .. lol almost the smae thing)

[sSNAKESs.com]

woooohooooooooo... Im home now and just spent the last 20 minutes browsing this topic... to just give a brief overview and not indulge to much into anything.. I would just have to state that expensive prices are what attract people into buying stuff... now lets start from say grade 5 in elementary school. Your just about to go back to school and your mom wants to buy you a new pair of shoes... Walmart has some very nice looking running shoes for $29.99, air bubbles, great design, and a GOOD, CHEAP price... Athletes world has some Nike Air running shoes which arent even as nice looking but cost $179.00 each and look like space shoes. Which pair of shoes do you think you whine and cry to get??? the walmart specials or the nikes... the nikes because of there high price, even though the walmart specials look nicer.. same goes for stitches brand clothing.. EXCO... hell alot of that stuff looks nice but because it is cheap and is a "imitation" it is not sought after.. cars.. wow... honda civic, nice and common 20k car.. great on gas and reliable... or a 150k bentley... whose going to buy the civic IF YOU CAN AFFORD the bentley... its just how life is.. the more money you have the higher quality of life you indulge yourself in, and its just a fact of life...

A whole nothing opinion is people who say they HATE HYBRIDS BUT THEY LOVE THERE ALBINOS AND MELANISTIC and all other bs morphs... LINE BREEDING MUTATIONS IN YOUR ANIMALS IS NO BETTER FOR THE ANIMAL THEN CROSS BREEDING THE ANIMAL to be kept in private collections.. in fact, i bet the hybridized animal has a better over all health then a piebald bp, to be kept in private collections, who cares... If you truly care about the health of your animal dont buy morphs. If you care about your snakes but not to that point, then indulge yourself in the morph race... but regardless of whatever you do.. HAVE FUN WITH IT AND RESPECT YOURSELF AND OTHERS OPINIONS. whatever your doing isnt the rightway or the best way period, it is the right way and best way FOR YOU TO DO WHAT YOUR DOING... oh my i have jet lag so if that didnt make sense or if it is all over the map, forgive me! just my opinions on a strongly opinionated topic!

[Dom]

Very good points although iam the kind of person who will buy the 20$ snadals at Walmart in order to save my 200$ for a snake LoL

[P.curtus]

Hey Dom, I've had some success breeding Northern pines (pituophis m. melanoleucus). If you have any problems maybe I can help.