Another horror story about heat lights....

[Scales Zoo]

Some of you will remember our cage fire that was very nearly a house fire, about 4 years ago. It was stupid, heat light in a wood cage - and it killed some savanna monitors, but not the house, Sarge the dog, or our other reptiles.

Well, the monitor cages I keep in the basement were starting to cool off since it got cold. So, I bought 150 watt spot lamps to replace the 100 watt lights I had been using. I put them into the heat light fixtures, above the cages, set over the cut mesh covered cutouts in top of the cages.

January 1, Sheila woke up at a friends house crying. She had just had a nightmare that the house burnt down, and the dogs and other pets perished. We have learned to trust our dreams, I won't try to provide any explanation for it, but we've had good reason to trust them in the past.

We rushed home, to find nothing amiss. The next morning, however, Sheila woke up at 5:00 am, and soon after, smelled something. I got up, smelled something too - but it didn't seem to be fire or heat. A quick check of the house and I went back under the covers where it was warm.

An hour later, the smell was worse Sheila noticed - and when we again checked the basement, we saw that one of the heat lights had moved off of it's screeen meshed hole, and was sitting partially on the top of the melamine cage. That part of cage had started to smolder. I unplugged everything, and hit it with water. It took a gallon of water to stop the sizzling from the smoldering melamine.

As worried as I am about heat lights, I had thought that set up to be safe. If it had been a day earlier while we were away, we would have surely lost the house, the reptiles we keep here, the dogs, all of our pictures, and my baseball size ball of goobers I've been saving for 15 years to enter it in Guiness some day.

Moral of the story - heat lights in a house are very dangerous, and you should always trust your dreams or nightmares. I know of friends heat pads causing as much or more potential damage as well.

I'll let you know if I figure out a good solution to heat lights in a house, but obviously I don't have it figured out yet. I'd say get good insurance, but realistically insurance would not cover a fire started by heat light in a house, and it really shouldn't, because it is an accident waiting to happen.

Go check your heat sources!

Ryan

[wyz]

Originally posted by Scales Zoo
and my baseball size ball of goobers I've been saving for 15 years to enter it in Guiness some day.

What are Goobers ? Got a pic ? :)

WYZ

[susan]

something like that happened to me, somehow my lamp got knocked off cage fell on carpet light down and the carpet was smoldering
scary

[Vengeance]

Things like this are very scary, espically since most insurance companies won't cover us because of the way the fire was started. Does anyone know any herp friendly insurance companies? I hate thinking that we could lose everything over my hobby. I replace my heat pads once a year but once I get heat tape and a rack system any ideas on how often heat tape should be replaced or would it need to be replaced at all?

I'm glad nothing bad happened Ryan.

[BoidKeeper]

Crazy stuff Ryan. Maybe you should switch over to radient heat panels instead.
Cheers,
Trevor

[K1LOS]

Perhaps a solution would be a wire cage surrounding the heatlamp itself. Have the lamp suspended within the cage, so there is 2" on each side. THat way, no matter what happens to the light, it can't get more than 2" from anything. Just a thought, but realistically i know im not going to do this.

Geoff

[Shad0w]

Wow scary...
I use heat panels on thermostats and florecent lighting just for this reason... :(

Glad to hear ya caught it in time and it did not turn into a disaster.

[paulsreef]

You really have to have a Murphy's Law train of thought. Think of all possible senararios. I had a heat lamp clamp that was made of hard plastic. It was holding my heat lamp for years; I went to relocate it one day and when I squeezed the clamp, it broke in my hand. The heat dried out the plastic and made it brittle. It probably wasn't really meant to hold a heat lamp. Even a lower wattage bulb x many years of operation would of ended with the same result. Paul.

[wiseman001]

I often worry about the same thing.. I have a Boa he's about 5.5 feet, and 2 BP... anyway.

I have had simular dreams...and now I turn the lights off at night and if im goin away for a day or two.. the lights are left off...my place stays warm enough during the winter months that the snakes don't get cold..

im the past I have had dreams my car got stolen, Now its nothing special its a old plymoth acclaim 92 not worth much.. but 3 days later May 24 weekend .. sure enough i work up sunday morning of the long weekend and it was gone.. i wish i would of known..well it was found a week later no damage THANK GOD!!.

[Greg West]

Ryan, I am glad you didn't have any worse results with the lights. In my opinion you should do away with the dome lamps and mount permanent light fixtures to the inside of the cage. I had the same problem a couple of months ago. I was adding lights to the bearded dragon cage to add more heat, and in my stupidity I draped the dome lamp on the inside of the cage with the cord hanging out, and then a watter bottle hanging off of the slack to make sure it didn't fall out. Well one day when watering in the morning I forgot to put the water bottle back. My wife came home to a basement full of smoke and a cage smoldering with bran. Luckily the 3 adults in the cage were hibernating and they weren't hurt. It could have been so much worse, and I was really lucky. You have to be 100Xs more careful with non permanent lighting.

[Rob McRobbie]

Close call Ryan.. What I have done in the past when working with heatlamps for my chameleons is drill 4 holes on the edges of the lamp shroud and then wire the shroud to the wire mesh that it is sitting on..

It's kinda a pain in the neck when you have to change out burnt bulbs but it is a lot safer aa the lamp can no longer be shifted around..


Rob

[Scales Zoo]

Rob, I had actually screwed them in place at one time, but the top cage is difficult to get to, and there has not been a screw in there for a couple of months. I think that little screw would have helped.

Greg, I do have many of the cages done with permanantly installed lighting. The access doors to these ones wouldn't let me change the lights, but maybe I need to make another access door to do so.

Lots of good ideas.

Fire bad!

Ryan

[Stockwell]

I think I've posted on this many times in the past and its always good to here other stories from the field.
People, incandescent heat bulbs in and over cages are just too dangerous and cause nearly all of herper related fires. Consider them candles without wicks, and they're probably actually more dangerous, because candles usually go out when they fall.
Use heat panels, and heat tape combined with fluorescent lights. Bulbs just put too much heat in too small an area.. You need heat which is more spread out to help reduce the chances of catastrophe.
Glad you escaped another close call Ryan.
And yes indeed.
Fire bad, high power bills bad, bulbs bad!!!

[Simon]

Wow Ryan

Glad that you made it back home and trusted your dreams. Cause if I made a dream like that I wouldn't have gone home like that.....guess now I would have to believe in my dreams if I ever have ANY dreams like that.....

I do agree, bulbs can be dangerous......
I too had a couple of times that the lights fell off and burnt an area of my carpet.....so after that I switched everything to heat tapes, which is better but still not 100% save.

Anyways glad that you escaped another close call~~

[HetForHuman]

I almost had my house burn down about 3 years ago because of a 100watt heat bulb on top of my boas cage.
I never had it fastened to the screen top, and never had any problems untill the one morning.

At about 8:30 in the morning i woke up to a terrible burning smell, and when i opened my eyes all i could see was grey smoke everywhere. My first thought was my room mate come home drunk and forgot something on the stove, but i was wrong. When i walked into the living room where my one and only snake was at that time, i seen my dome light sitting on the carpet smouldering away, i totally freaked out. I quickly unplugged it, and tossed it into the sink, then i seen a little flame on the carpet, so i quickly filled a ice cream pail full of water and started dumping it on the carpet.

When i knew it was out, i looked more closely and seen that the heat lamp had burned through the carpet, the underlay, and all the way down to the plywood on the very bottom.

And the thing was the light was prob on the carpet most of the night, but thank god i had it on a timer. The lamp would have turned on at 7:00 in the morning, good thing i woke up when i did.

I figure it must have been my cat that knocked it off but cant say for sure.
But what is really wierd is when we phoned the insurance company, they sent out an insurance adjuster guy to look and see what happened, and right when he come in the door, he seen my tank the light and the snake, and we still got covered for the insurance.. All i had to pay was a $500 deductable, and my whole living room was re-carpeted.

Lets just say it was soon after that i quit using lights alltogether. Heatpads and heat tape all the way now.

[Scales Zoo]

Roy, I agree that heat panels, heat tape and flourecent lights are safer, but I don't think they provide a hot enough basking spot for monitors or some other lizards.

Also putting lights inside the cage as was earlier mentioned, I only do with our tall monitor cages - safety of lights in a reptile cage is a whole other story.

A word of warning about heat pads. I know someone who used a commercial reptile heating pad inside their cage (I know lots of people who do). It is beleived, that the build up of heat over time caused the peat moss to start smoldering, then the cage to start smoldering, and it very nearly caught on fire.

I think it is time someone invented completely fire proof building materials, that would solve a lot of problems right there.

Ryan

[Scales Zoo]

Tim, I am suprised you got insurance. We did not report the cage fire we had 4 years ago because I thought they might pull our insurance all together.

That too, burnt throught the carpet and underlay. But then I found out that under the carpet, is really old hardwood flooring - which increased the insured value of our house by $20,000.

With the bad, there is sometimes good.

Ryan

[HetForHuman]

I was really surprised we got it as well. Maybe it was the fact that i did only have the one animal and enclosure. I dont know what it would be like now that i have near a dozen animals and enclosures.

I just hope i never have to find out again.

[Invictus]

I agree with Greg West, I use fixed sockets for all of my cages, and I have used as much as 100W light bulbs (heat well above 120 degrees basking) contained within melamine housing with HARDWARE CLOTH (Never wire mesh!) allowing the heat into the cage, and have never once had a problem. certainly if the bulb contacted melamine long enough (as did yours in this case), there would be a problem. But if it's kept a few inches away, it seems to be very safe. At least, I haven't had a problem in the year or so that I've been building cages that way.

Anyway, I'm glad nothing happened, and I agree with one other thing - TRUST YOUR DREAMS. Kudos to Sheila's intuition.

[sidewinder]

I had a dream at least a thousand times that I won the lottery,.... stillwaiting

[Scales Zoo]

Originally posted by Invictus
contained within melamine housing with HARDWARE CLOTH (Never wire mesh!) allowing the heat into the cage, and have never once had a problem. certainly if the bulb contacted melamine long enough (as did yours in this case), there would be a problem. But if it's kept a few inches away, it seems to be very safe. At least, I haven't had a problem in the year or so that I've been building cages that way.

It was hardware cloth. The heat light was almost 2'' from the wood, but the radiant heat made the melamine start to burn. The other dome which held in place, had only 1/2'' clearance - and was obviously not safe. They were spot lights however, so it aimed it's light and heat.

If I were to build a box around a light, inside the cage, I'd make sure to keep the light at least 2'' away from any wood - and I'd probably use some tin sheeting of some kind, to protect the wood from direct radiant heat. I'd actually not feel very comfortable bringing any wood closer to a heat light than I needed too.

I use the same set up for lights on the large caiman enclosure, and have not had any problems in over 3 years. Those lamps are secured over hardware cloth that is larger than the lamp - and right now I thinkt that might be the safest way to use a spot light or heat light. In 2 years from now, when those cause my house to burn down, I might change my thoughts about that too though - and that was the purpose of starting a post about my screw ups - so we'd get some discussion going, and hope to save someone else from losing a house, pictures or pets.

The reality is, heat lights aren't meant to be used in houses, or to provide heat to a confined reptile cage. They are meant to keep baby chicks warm in old barns, which aren't close to anything valubalbe - and they do cause fires even then - with all the extra space.

Ryan

[Invictus]

Yeah, the light houses I build are 10" x 10", so I believe the light is 4" away from the melamine in front, and at least 3" from the external door. The aluminum flashing or tin sheeting is a good idea - something I think I will look into.

[marisa]

A couple years ago a cat knocked over a heat lamp here, and I found it totally burning into the carpet.

I'd rather spend the extra money on radient heat panels and heat tape, and use tube lights in my house. Bulbs are crap for many reasons, this is just the scariest one.

Marisa

[Tim and Julie B]

We had a similar incedent a few years back. A light burnt a hole in the carpet. But that doesn't compare to what happened to a friend of mine. We were watching a movie and could smell something checked his reptile room and a lamp was sitting on a shelf. On! It had burned a four inch hole through a inch of partical board.

I agree with Ryan. Heat panels etc are all well and good but what about monitors? Are there any alternative heat sources that can provide a 120 degree basking temp? TB

[marisa]

I'd say using a low low wattage regular bulb...like a 40... along with a heat panel installed upright could create a 120 basking spot....still a bulb but far cooler and lower wattage than some 100+ watt ones I am sure.

Marisa

[Scales Zoo]

Any monitor I've ever kept, I'm sure would burn himself on the 40 watt bulb, because they'd contact it, if they could, when basking.

It takes a lot of bulb to provide 120 F at any distance, and some people suggest 140 F basking. i've seen some of our monitors bask in 140 F spots when provided.

I've never used a heat panel, or seen one in use, but I'd like to find out more about them. What kind of basking temperature can they provide at, say 12''. Do they cause the cage above them (if stacked) to become really warm. Are they safe to use with wood (I'm paranoid now)?

Ryan

[Tim and Julie B]

THat's some good points Ryan I wonder what the manufacturer says about contact with wood on some of those products. My Albig's light is hanging in the cage and she can contact it quite easily but never does the savs their kight is further of the ground so they could not contact it but both hang in the cage. I am now wondering about an alternative.

[Shad0w]

Ive got helix heat panels, and I can tell u, one side gets really warm (the underside) but the top.. that mounts to the celing, remains cool....

I dont think one could provide 140 degrees at 12 inches tho... It probably could at 6 to 8 inches...

And yes.. they are safe with wood :)
moisture will also not affect them... U can even lightly spray the hot side to help with instant humidity.. they are impermeable to water.

I highly recommend them... once you try them, you will not use anything else.. they are amazing!

Oh.. and they do not dry out the air in the cage like a lightbulb does

[Scales Zoo]

I'd like to try Helix's - I had heard that they provide a lot of "up heat". I've found them for $66 U.S - where is the best (read cheapest) place to get some, I'd like to try a few out, if not for monitors, for some of the snakes at least.

Ryan

[Shad0w]

I got mine at PCpets for $90 canadian, I dont think thatll help ya much being in sask :)

[Invictus]

Originally posted by Shad0w
Oh.. and they do not dry out the air in the cage like a lightbulb does [/B]

Light bulbs do not dry out the air. This is the worst myth of cage building. I use bulbs to CREATE humidity. If your light bulbs dry out the air, it's because you're not setting up the cage right, and not replenishing the humidity at the same rate you're depleting it. Put a water source near the light, problem solved.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Light bulbs totally dry out the air. Not a myth.

[Shad0w]

LOL Invictus,

I dont care what anyone says.. but do ya think that a hot bulb near a water source is wise?

Respectfully, I dont think so...
A splash of water on a hot bulb "COULD" make it explode... not good.

You can safely get a RHP wet.

As far as Im concerned...

1. heat panels
2. heat pads

Id never consider hot bulbs for heat... I know they work but bro.. its asking for trouble.

I think its time we move away from the cheaper solutions to the better ways..

There is allot more at stake here than herps... Id hate to see a newbie's house burn down based on my suggestion of using bulbs.

Cost should not be an issue when it comes to safety. We are talking about peoples lives.

RHP's are safer, last longer (20+ years are typical), use less power, will not injure yer herps... whats not to love!

Anywho.. this is just my opinion... I know we all do it differently :D

[Invictus]

IS a myth. Unless I'm using some kind of "magical" light bulbs with "magical" water that evaporates causing the cage to become humid to the tune of 80-100%. I mean, damn, all those pathetic grade 5 science teachers who are teaching kids that heat causes water to evaporate, and that water vapor in the air causes humidity..... damn, why don't they just listen to the self-proclaimed experts of the herp community? I weep for our children!

Jeff, I'm not getting into this debate with you again. Bait me all you want, but until you can prove me wrong (which you CAN'T), the bottom line is, you are wrong, simply because I have proven repeatedly that my method DOES cause 80-100% humidity. So until you can prove me wrong, keep your OPINION to yourself, and I'll stick to the facts, thanks.

And Shadow, putting a water source underneath a light bulb that is caged and 18" above the water is no less safe than having heat tape wired anywhere near a cage.

[Paleosuchus]

Glad everything turned out alright, about a month ago i had a lamp fall and burn the carpet, ever since then i built a wire mesh caging around the outside of where the lamp sits so there is no way it could fall.
One question though, Invictus, i noticed you put an exclamation mark next to -Not wire mesh. As if thats a bad choice? Just wandering because if it is, il have to change it.
thanks, jason

[Invictus]

Jason, wire mesh can melt quite easily, and it retains a great deal of heat as well - enough that the reptile can burn themselves on it if they come in contact with it. I've never had that problem with hardware cloth.

[Shad0w]

Invictus,

Can you give me one benefit of a bulb for heat over a RHP?

Whats the risk worth?

If you wanna be irresponsible and take those risks, esp around water, fine, but I sure hope no one follows your lead...

If people use light bulbs becuase they are cheaper than a RHP, I will respectfully say thats an irresponsible choice...

Again, whats a safe setup worth to you?
All that risk instead of paying $90 for a RHP? Cummon, get real.. if you cannot afford a safe setup, you should leave the herping alone.

Anyone should think $90 is a bargoon for safety!
Im sure your home insurance company would love you for your choices...

[marisa]

Well for me, I find the way to keep humidity up when using a bulb on a tank or a enclosure would be putting a water source underneath it. But is warm water 24/7 any good? I am not sure. But I find water under lights I have used constantly "warm" It seems yucky but maybe not. I don't know.

Marisa

[Paleosuchus]

Ok thanks i'll look into the hardware cloth. An on another note, i have been using a light over the water bowl for keeping the humidity up for my emerald tree boa aswell as misting. Seems to work as good if not better then a heat pad under the water bowl.

[Darren179]

Well in my enclosed melamine cages I find that I can maintain the temps I need ambient and floor by placing 1-2 feet of heat tape (depending on size of cage) plus and 18 inch flouresent bulb over the hot end. I can get my temps into the mid 80s ambient and the floor space at whatever I want. Thus I have no real need for the bulbs. For the bigger enclosures heat panels work well also

[Jeff_Favelle]

Don't flatter yourself dude. Just because someone doesn't agree with you, doesn't mean they are baiting you. Holy moly reality check.

[Jeff_Favelle]

How about you prove ME wrong. I've proven that it does dry out cages. So why don't YOU stick to facts? Hmmmm?

[Mark]

Invictus: Get over it. Whats there to prove. Take any heat source and a water source and you'l get a raised humidity. The problem lies in too small of a waater source and/or too large of heat source. If there is not enough water to replace the moisture that the bulb uses the humidity will drop.

For example take 2 cages that are both the same and run one with a light buld and one with a heat pad/ heat tape. Sure maybe for a bit you will get the same humidity but you'll notice the water the the light bulbs cage will be drying out more often and have to be filled on a more regular basis. add more air flow and your problem only gets worse.

hmmmm...now I wonder why that is?

maybe because bulbs dry out the air.

Mark

[mykee]

What Mark said. Also, keep in mind that a UTH or heat tape or whatever is on the BOTTOM of the tank, cage, aquarium, whatever. A light bulb, unless you're an idiot, will be mounted at the highest point, if not outside the cage. I might be wrong, along with all the "science rebukers" here, but heat rises, right? Where is it going to rise to? Out of the cage? Where a heat source placed low in the cage, will heat UP and heat the cage more EFFECTIVELY, as well as dispersing the humidity created more EFFICIENTLY also.

[Invictus]

Incorrect Mykee.

The light bulb actually heats the cage more efficiently, and I've proven that too. The heat from heat tape does not radiate enough to actually heat the air above the heat tape, and yes, I've measured it extensively. Heat does not necessarily rise unless it has somewhere to rise TO - so unless you use top ventilation (which I don't), the heat will rise and fall all the same. Because I now use side vents, the heat will move to an area of lesser concentration - thus out the side of cage, heating the ENTIRE cage, not just the exact area of the bottom where the heat tape happens to be.

But if you're actually interested in the data I did collect, I have taken temp measurements in identical cages, one heated with heat tape, one with a light bulb. With the exception of the floor itself, the cage with the heat tape offered ZERO in the way of air heating - thus the reptile would get heat on their belly, yes... but would still have 80% of its body exposed to nothing more than room temperature. I took measurements above the heat tape, and every inch above it right to the top of the cage.

The cage with the bulb, on the other hand, maintained a consistent air temperature within 1.5 feet of the bulb itself, and still allowed a 10 degree drop at the cooler end of the cage where the vent was. Temperature measurements were taken again, every inch up to the height of the light housing, and the temps increased the higher up you got, yes.... but the overall air temp on the hot side was MANY degrees warmer.

I have also done cages for arboreals that were always at 80 - 100 % humidity by simply placing a second water dish directly underneath the area the bulb was in. It is NOT a fire risk, or at least no moreso than heat tape underneath a cage.

But people here don't seem to be interested in the absolutely exhaustive study, trial, and error that I've done over the years, so whatever.... I could post data from both cage setups with thermometers and hygrometers every inch in the cage, and people will still insist that the light bulb dries out the air.

And Jeff, before you criticize me about "flattering myself", maybe you should look at your own self-indulgent B.S. on these forums.

Anyway, good day. I'm done with this horse *****.

[Tim_Cranwill]

Yikes! Is it hot in here or is it just you guys? :D Maybe it's all the lights in my house. :p

Isn't it in the TOS that you two aren't allowed to discuss this issue anymore? No? Well it SHOULD be! :D lol Peace, butha's. Save your swords for a better battle. :)


Ryan, I'm glad you averted the danger. It would be a great loss for the entire industry to see a collection like yours ruined. :)

Soooo... how's everyone doing with their New Year's resolutions? :D

[Jeff_Favelle]

Anyway, good day. I'm done with this horse *****.


Maybe you should throw a temper tantrum and swear a bit more so you can get your point across better?

Dude, if someone doesn't agree with you, don't spazzz and grab your ball and go home. That's no fun.

Exhaustive data with lights in your cages and all that jazz? Ok, fine let's see it. Let's sit down and analyze this and figure it out like adults. Then maybe everyone can benefit as a whole. Or would you rather just throw a hissy and not discuss it? Either or....

Heat does not necessarily rise unless it has somewhere to rise TO - so unless you use top ventilation (which I don't), the heat will rise and fall all the same.

Wrongo. Heated air will stratify itself regardless of ventilation. Ha ha. It doesn't follow the "moves from high concentration to low concentration" rule because it is ALL AIR. Its not concentrated any less or any more. Heat is not a concentration and its not a volume. Warmer air is less dense and will ALWAYS rise unless in a pure vaccum, which no reptile cage on the planet is. Please don't abuse science like that man. It hurts me to even read it! LOL!

[Invictus]

Jeff, do you READ my posts before you post about them? Evidently you don't. You want the data? It was already posted in this thread and in COUNTLESS other debates about the same issue, and you have YET to show any evidence whatsoever that my data is either flawed or incorrect. Such being the case, I have busted the myth (don't ya love that show?) that you and others like to perpetuate about bulbs drying out the air. I've tried on countless occasions to post my findings, which you promptly dismiss with your sarcastic 'wit' (shallow though it may be), and ignore everything I post - so the onus is on you now. Prove me wrong, or shut the hell up and quit spreading lies about things that have already been proven to be a myth.

And by the way, the vacuum DOES exist in a reptile cage, due to the difference in temperature between the inside of the cage, and the air outside the cage. I can actually feel a breeze coming from the reptile cage vent, and have been able to make lighters flicker with same - so really Jeff, nice attempt at trying to intelligently spread your BS, but unfortunately you're just plain wrong here.

[Invictus]

Oh, and if you want to try to use up more of shallow wit with references such as "take your ball and go home", go ahead. You've got nothing else to go on, you may as well resort to your feeble attempts at being the schoolyard bully. The bottom line is, you're just no fun to debate with anymore Jeff. So I'll take my 'ball' of energy elsewhere.

[Tim and Julie B]

OK.......well the sand box is getting low. So has anyone tried a heat source besides bulbs for desert species that require a 120 degree plus hot spot? Anyone.......?????? TB

[Jeff_Favelle]

Dude, your cage does NOT have a vacuum in it man. A vacuum is a space completely devoid of matter and gravity. I'm not sure what planet you claim to be from this week, but that isn't happening in your snake cages.

Just because you say such and such things happen in your cage, and you've done this and that with so and so results, does not mean you've "debunked" any "myths". But you'd have a lot better results in convincing people about your hair-brained theories if you would just speak like an adult and don't make every single thread so personal. I have no idea why you get so worked up about stuff, but doode, its too funny to not say anything about it. Its not that I'm not fun to debate with. Its when you make things so personal and rant and rave and swear, what does that leave a person with. If you disagree, fine, debate THAT point. But to get all huffy because you're perceived truth isn't getting across is both childish and immature. But if that's the public persona you want to portray, then go ahead. I ain't your momma.

Warm air holds more moisture than cold air. Therefore if you take 60F air and heat it to 85F, it will have a SIGNIFICANTLY less RH (Relative Humidity). So, unless your cage is AIR TIGHT (hope not man), then that hotter air will escape and will be constantly replaced with that cooler air. Keep doing that, and you will be drying the air out. Big time. Of course you can put water over top of a heat source. But I wouldn't want to drink warm water. And I don't want my snakes to. Yuck.

Also, air temps for most snakes in captivity should NOT be 90F, yet that is the temp they need. How ya going to do that with a bulb?

I'm done and said my piece, all without swearing or throwing a fit! How'z about that? No more participation from me, as this has been discussed ad nasuem. Just do a search and read and think about it and formulate your own opinions. I hope people make the right choice, and not the choice to save a few bucks in the short term.

"Peace" out.

P.S> Tim, I think you could rig up heat panels or tape to do that. Seems logical. Also, remember that most desert species spend their lives avoiding the heat of the desert. Its not that they LIKE the heat. Its that natural selection has chosen them to be the best and most efficient at avoiding heat and living in that harsh condition.

[Justcage]

A vacuum can also be somethign you clean the floor with ....

[Tim and Julie B]

I am actually thinking about my African varanids mostly. Obviously in the wild the sun heats surfaces that the reptile will lay on. My mom used to tell me about the rattlesnakes laying all over the helicopter pad in the evenings. Anyways I don't think an above or a below heat would make a difference. I would like to ask some other monitor keepers first before drawing that conclusion but I have yet to see a heat pad that gets to 120 safely. Especially with a few feet of dirt on the bottom. For snakes yes they would be great but can anyone think of a way the any other heat source can be used instead of a bulb. I know they can be mounted on the side of an enclosure but it seems to me that wouldn't be very efficent. Can anyone come up with a good solution to use these products with other reps besides snakes? A pad mounted between tiles maybe? Although I would never do this for a large rep that likes to dig.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Anyways I don't think an above or a below heat would make a difference.

Tough to say, as a LOT of lizards, particularily monitors are hard-wired to "know" that if they go out and bask in bright light that they will reach their desired temps for thermoregulation, etc etc. They KNOW this stuff. So if you take that away, will the be able to figure out that a heat pad does the same thing? And even if they do figure it out, will they be affected psycholigically? And then physiologically because of that? Tought to know for sure. I would think that giving them heat in a way that closely resembles how they get it in nature is best. Especially for a smart, alert type of lizard like a monitor. So I would stick with bulbs.

But could a 120F heat source be created? Sure. Easy. Just get heat tape, get two very very thin slabs of concrete or tile and sandwhich it on either side. Hooked up to a dimmer or thermostat and it'll be 120F easy. But I wouldn't do it. Bulbs for diurnal lizards are just toooo darn effective to worry about anything else.

Weird, on the subject of lizards learning about heat sources; ask Frank R. about the time he was stuck in a cave in the tropics over night and he lit a fire with his wife. Then all the lizards came out and sat by the fire!! I'm not sure if he was pulling anyone's chain or what, but it was a funny story!! Go on Varanus.net forum and ask him. He'll tell you about it.

[BoidKeeper]

Well let' compare methods. Jeff's method = lots and lots of captive bred offspring. Ken's method = .......
Trevor

[Invictus]

Ken's method = snakes that have proper temps and thermal gradients, snakes that eat and crap just as well as anyone else's, and 3 clutches of eggs from 2 breeding parents, 1 of which produced 2 large clutches of offspring on her first ever breeding without a brumation period. Nice try though Trevor.

[marisa]

The swearing and "BS" comments are going to stop or the thread is going to close. It's totally NOT needed in an adult discussion which no matter how many times it's brought up, can be helpful to people.

Either argue your various points without it, or don't. That simple.

Marisa

[marisa]

Now can anyone tell me why it's o.k. to allow a snake to drink from water thats under a light or on top of a heat source all day? Is this not a bacteria haven unless you change it every single day?

Marisa

[Shad0w]

Marisa you are right, warm water fouls much quicker... bacteria LOVE IT!

Invictus,

I am still respectfully waiting for a response from you, please name ONE benefit a bulb has over a RHP.. Please do not use price as an EXCUSE for lack of safety concerns. I mean is this not what this thread is about? The dangers of bulb heat?

[marisa]

I have always kept my water dishes away from the hot side because of that...even though I wasn't sure. Whenever one of my water bowls gets pushed over anywhere, I always have moved it back over to the extreme cool side.

Marisa

[BoidKeeper]

Ken's method = snakes that have proper temps and thermal gradients,
Don't need heat lamps to accomplish this feat.

snakes that eat and crap just as well as anyone else's,
Don't need heat lamps to acheive that kinda of success either.

Let's recap. Jeff's method = lots and lots of captive bred offspring consistently year after year.
Ken's method = 3 clutches of eggs from 2 breeding parents, 1 of which produced 2 large clutches of offspring on her first ever breeding without a brumation period.

If I was a newbie looking for husbandry tips I think I know which side of the coin I would chose.
Face it, no large successful breeders use heat lamps. There must be a reason for it. I know when I'm looking for advice I look to the people who are actually producing animals consistently and then I copy what they are doing.
Cheers,
Trevor

[Scales Zoo]

I use a heat light for the blackheads (which don't require high relavive ambient humidity as compared to many other boas and pythons) as I was told to by other people who have bred them, but will probably test a new radiant heat panel on them.

If I like them, I'm going to get a lot more of them. Still looking for the cheapest deal.

I also love bright sticks. I have not had any accidents with them over my years of using very many.

They are a single use flourecscent type of light. They provide a bit extra ambient cage temperature (depending on amount of ventilation in the cage), a bit of a thermal gradiant, and also act to help warm any cages above the cages they are in.

Add a small heat mat, under the cage for a basking spot - figure out what to keep the room temp at - and you are set!

Ryan

[Tim and Julie B]

Uromastix are another species that comes to mind were a bulb is just more practical. I think that it like anything else all comes done to the application. Other heat sources can be used but if it can not be practically applied then..........use what works. I think we have proven that some of these other items are safe and a bulb that is used in a well thought out way can be safe as well. Different tools for different applications. Has anyone tried Ultratherm pads yet?

[Gary D.]

Ryan's got me hooked on bright sticks too. Each is 33 W and are available as standard warm white or "plant and aquarium". As for radient heat panels is any one familiar with Big Apple's "Desert Rays"? They look a lot like flexwatt and are under half the price of most convertional ceramic units.

http://www.bigappleherp.com/Reptile_Supplies/Product/Desert_Rays_Radiant_Heat_Panels_118100.html

[Jeff_Favelle]

I would love to have lights (low watt) in all my Woma cages. In fact, I think I will be the end of next summer. Womas LOVE it hot, so a low wattage light won't hurt them, plus they hate humidity so that's not a problem. But you have to pick your spots to use lights and not be silly about it.

[Tim and Julie B]

Those look interesting. I wonder what type of temps they can reach. It even says they can be mounted to the top of a cage. Very cool.

[BoidKeeper]

Ryan I'm up to three heat panels now. One in my female vision chage and the other two in my chondro cages. They are great, over heat with out the bulb and they can safely go inside the cage and the cages can be stacked!
Cheers,
Trevor

[marisa]

My whole problem with lights isn't the drying issue alone.

It's the fact they take more energy.

They blow out WAY faster than any other heat source.

They get hot enough that they can break if you need to move them before cooling. This is a non-issue with other choices.

You need to build gaurds or install them properly to keep animals off them. Heat tape and pads don't have this issue.

Cat's can't knock heat tape over.

So they are not cost effective, not long lived, and a higher fire hazard than most other things in some cases. On top of the humidity issue.

I have no reason to use bulbs when looking at the pro and con list. None.

Marisa

[Scales Zoo]

Trevor, thanks for your view on the heat panels. If they really radiate the heat down, and don't cause too much heat going up, and are safe enough to spray water on - I think they are probably worth the high price - but will wait to make my decision when I try 1.

Maybe I can get a company to send me one or 2 to try out, and then work out a deal on a lot of them or something.

I can even see them applying in the argus enclosure at the zoo which is 8'' tall and doesnt need to be. The monitors don't use the trees nearly as much as they originally did (which at the time, suprised me a bit that they used the trees at all). I could build a shelf that was 10'' away from the sand, and install the heat panel below that. If they don't get very7warm above them, the monitor should be able to also use this shelf for belly basking - if it wishes.

No reports of these kinda things burning reptiles, or causing any fires or anything?

Ryan

[Shad0w]

Hey Ryan,

Dont forget that panels typically last 20+ years :)
Google Radiant Heat Panel and read all about the technology and the benefits of radiant heat... Its been used in home and commercial applications for a LONG TIME :)

Check here:
http://www.radiantpanelassociation.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=96

[paulsreef]

I have a 130 gallon reef tank. I grow coral in it that requires intense lighting. I used to run 4-48", 110 watt vho( very high output) bulbs; a total of 440watts. I was losing 1 gallon per day through evaporation. I wanted more lighting so I added 2- 250 watt metal halides; for a grand total of 940 watts. I am now losing 2.5 gallons per day through evaporation. It appears that the evaporation has more then doubled. The room that contains the aquarium is humid unless I control it with a dehumidifier or increase ventilation. You can look at the room as a large herp. enclosure.

Paul.

[patenaud]

Just built a melamine rack system and I'm using 80 watt heat rope embedded in the melanime. I've covered with heat tape (the metallic kind) for heat dissipation and I've got it attached to a thermostat so the heat rope doesn't run at full power all the time. Works well. The heat rope can be attached (via electrical tape) under the aquarium floor, and also can be rapped around branches in the enclosure. Again, you must use a thermostat with them but so far they've been great for other applications also.

It's about $40.00 for 27 feet of it.

Denis

[Jeff Hathaway]

Wow, I missed a lot of this thread, but since it has been bumped back up...

All of Marisa's recent points about lights are right on the money. There are lots of great reasons not to use lights in many situations. However, there are also reasons TO use lights, such as when you can't heat from below (thick insulative substrate, thick cage floor, need to heat branches in a tall enclosure, etc.) and you can't have a radiant panel close to where you need the heat (either it is too far away or it would be unsightly in a display enclosure). Lights aren't inherently evil but they are a greater fire/burn risk and should be secured or guarded accordingly. And as a general rule, don't have carpet where your enclosures are, for a variety of reasons, and try to minimize any flammable materials nearby.

Now as for some science:

Lights don't dry out a cage more than any other equivalent heat source, in an equivalent cage. If you could figure out an equivalent to an agricultural 'drying index', it would be a function of the amount of heat, amount of air flow, amount of evaporation, ambient air temperature and relative humidity, and the volume of the cage. The processes that create heat, air flow, etc. would not matter, but realize that different processes may change other parameters (i.e. a fan-forced electric heater will increase air flow as well as add heat).

Heat doesn't rise. Heat radiates in all directions, though at different rates though different media. Heat also is conducted, again at different rates through different materials. What does rise is air, heated by the previous two methods so that it is less dense (heat causes the volume of air to increase while the mass remains the same, remember D = M/V?). This process is called convection. Doesn't anyone remember science class?

If a bulb dries your cage out more than an equivalent wattage of heat tape, RHP, etc. (no, they don't produce exactly the same amount of heat, but it is pretty close for incandescent lights as almost all of the power (wattage) is lost to heat instead of making light) then it simply must be a function of the light increasing the air flow. This isn't surprising since the light is usually mounted on hardware cloth on top of the cage, so that it creates a lot of warm air right at a location which provides a nice vent- the resulting convection currents move a lot of air through the cage, resulting in a lot of moisture loss. Put 100W of heat tape in a coil on top of the same hardware cloth you'll see the same effect.

All heat sources have their applications. Use them safely in the right application and you'll be fine. In most cases, heat pads or heat rope/tape make the most sense.

And yes, virtually all bacteria, algae, etc. multiply faster in warmer water.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[boywithscales]

ummm ya, this has been an interesting post. So when you were talking about how to supply heat to monitors and lizards that need high temp, it got me thinking. I bought a large fiberglass heat pad,(3ft by 2 ft) From a companie called.......Osborne Industries, sounds spidermanish dont it? Anywhoo when it finally got to my place i plugged it in, just to see how hot this thing would get before using it in my boas cage.(turned out also, it was too big too fit in her cage properly so now its under her cage.) I was reading it with a cheap walmart grade thermometer, this thing had like between 46-50 surface temp,it was really hot, even the air above this thing was nice and toasty. So i had to figure out how to turn down the heat,i went to kent building supplys and bought a lamp dimmer, made sure watts and volts werent all screwy, and now voila, my boas cage now sits above this heat mat. The cage is above the mat by about an inch, being held up by old broken atari games, and some books. The mat is working great, heats her entire enclosure, with basking spot and all,its a big cage too.(6-2-2)

Also, about halfway through reading all these posts about fires, i have already e-mailed helix controls about a heat panel, because i also have a heat lamp on my boas cage too, so i can see in her cage better during the day, the lamp itself doesnt get that hot, but after what you all said, its being turned off in the mornin, funny thing is it has a wooden box around it to keep it from being knocked over. i dont think ive wrote this much since grade 12 english................dam........
anyways thanx for the input
jesse