Graziani Jungle Pastels

[atw]

I often see people mentioning that they own Graziani line jungle pastels. What other types of pastels are there? I don't mean traits like lemon, cinnamon, etc. but rather, different blood lines. I am just curious because I have only seen Graziani mentioned.


Adam

[Clownfishie]

NERD is the other main "line" that I'm aware of -- there might be more, I'm sure that someone will enlighten us if there is ;)


Jen

[hhw]

There are a LOT of other lines out there, but Lemon, Bell, and TSK are the more notable ones... I'm not sure if TSK's line is distinct or whether it's the same as the regular NERD line.

[mykee]

The SK line are Graziani 's as well. There's also the Gnaidowski(sp?) line, Ruppel's stonewashed line, Bell's line, Nerd's line...

[BornboreD]

If there were only Graziani's I wouldn't complain.............

[CHRISANDBOIDS14]

Whats there to complain about?

C.

[atw]

Thanks everyone. With the info from Mykee's post I found this link that shows some different lines:

http://imageevent.com/royalpythonreptiles?n=0

Thanks again!

Adam

[BornboreD]

Originally posted by CHRISANDBOIDS14
Whats there to complain about?

C.

Exactly!! ;)

[Andy_G]

Originally posted by CHRISANDBOIDS14
Whats there to complain about?

C.

Lack of genetic variety...;)

[Derrick]

what happens if you breed a pastel from one line with a different???

"Ya know what I'm sayin?"

[atw]

I was wondering that as well. I know that there are different lines of orange ghost that are not compatible but that is a simple recessive trait. I am not sure what incompatible co-dom traits would result in.... no supers but some of each line? normals? Hopefully someone will answer.

Adam

[munchy]

Originally posted by BornboreD
If there were only Graziani's I wouldn't complain.............
grazianis rule :D

[RandyRemington]

I know that there are different lines of orange ghost that are not compatible but that is a simple recessive trait.

I've been looking for well-documented cases of incompatible ghosts. Do you have first hand details of one? Where both animals from proven genetic ghost lines?


I am not sure what incompatible co-dom traits would result in.... no supers but some of each line? normals?

The problem is that even if there where genetically different lines of pastels (i.e. different mutations of different genes) they might combine to make a super looking animal. The way to tell would be if the "super" could produce some normals when bred to a normal but would tend to produce only about 1/4 of them and not the expected 1/2 of a regular pastel X normal.

[atw]

Hi

This is what my comment was based on:

http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/matrix/traits/ghost.asp

[RandyRemington]

The NERD quote on that site is:

We work with three phases of this mutation: Green, Orange and Blonde; all are compatible within our group. We have learned the hard way that not all Ghosst are compatible, by breeding two Ghosts together and failing to hatch out Ghosts when we used a new bloodline.

I'd love to know if the new bloodline even ended up proving to be genetic. I've heard two other accounts of incompatible "ghosts".

One was when Graziani was breeding a bunch of imported animals. Again I don't know if they all ended up proving genetic. I suspect that there may be some ghost like looking imported animals that aren't genetic that are the root of the belief that there is incompatibility in the ghost group. I've yet to hear of proven lines of what we now call ghosts not proving compatible.

The other case of incompatibility I’ve heard of was from the Barkers years ago. One of the animals was the one they originally coined the name "ghost" for and it sounds like it was something different looking than what we now call ghosts. That original ghost was described as having odd scales if I remember right. I'm not sure if that line is even still around.

[mykee]

Andy, as for "genetic variety" please name me a different morph (besides the axanthic(3)) that has 5 or more different bloodlines all displaying the same basic colour and pattern variation?
As for compatibility, all pastels are compatible with each other.

[hhw]

By the way, let's not forget the blonde line.

[RandyRemington]

Just for argument sake, how do you know that all the pastel lines are compatible? I agree that they probably are compatible but I've not heard breeding results from suspected supers from crossed lines yet.

Also, I bet there have been more than 5 imported albinos by now and for sure many more imported ghosts. Of course no real way to know how closely they might all be related in the "old country" or not.

[atw]

I have been thinking about all pastel lines being compatible and how you could prove that different lines are compatible so these are my thoughts...

If there exist incompatible orange ghost bloodlines, they would be incompatible because breeding 2 together would produce visible normals or rather, double hets for the 2 bloodlines. Breeding these double hets together would give the 1 in 16 chance of producing an orange ghost that would exhibit qualities of both bloodlines but because they are simply different bloodlines --instead of different traits--, the visible difference would probably not be significant. You would probably not be able to identify this visible double het from the other orange ghosts that result from inbreeding.

In terms of pastels, because a pastel is just a visible het for a super pastel, breeding 2 different lines together would give you a visible double het right away. There would be no need to inbreed the double hets to see the visible manifestation. In this sense, proving 'compatibility' is a little bit different for co-doms than for simple recessive traits. To prove that 2 pastel lines are compatible, I think you would have to breed supers from each line. If the lines are not compatible, you would get pastels and if they are compatible, you would only get supers.

Is this correct?

Adam

[RandyRemington]

With the recessive example it's easier. Just breed two proven lines of ghosts together and either get all ghost showing them compatible or no ghosts (normal looking double hets) showing them incompatible. The only twist is when one or both parents aren't proven (i.e. imported "ghosts"). You might get all normals because an import might not be a genetic ghost, just a non-genetic animal that looks like a ghost ("nice normal" syndrome).

If two incompatible but genetic ghost lines are ever proven then you get into the complicated process of trying to produce a double homozygous "super" ghost of sorts. Proving that you hit the 1 in 16 would be sticky but lets not jump ahead of ourselves as I'm not sure any incompatible genetic lines of ghosts exist yet.

The problem with determining compatibility between dominant type morphs is that the supers you think you produced by crossing two lines of pastel might just be the combined effect of the two different mutations. For example, a bumblebee doesn't prove that pastel and spider are the same gene just because it looks different than a normal spider or a normal pastel. In fact, the quick production of the killerbee proves that spider and pastel are almost surely not only different mutations of different genes but that they are even on different chromosomes. If two different lines of pastel turned out to be completely different mutations of different genes on different chromosomes that just happened to look similar enough to both be called pastel they still might combine when bred together to produce a super pastel looking animal. However, this animal would not be homozygous for a single pastel gene like a “super” pastel should be, it would be a double het for two different mutations. So when you breed this “double pastel” to a normal you would not get the expected 100% pastel from a homozygous pastel but rather1/4 of each of the parent pastel lines, 1/4 double pastel, and 1/4 normal.

[nita]

There is also the Enchi? pastel. I thought it looks a bit like the Amber though. There is a pic of it and the super form of it on ralph davis site. Very nice looking snake.

[NiagaraReptiles]

Enchi Pastels are pretty, but I don't agree that they should be grouped with pastels as they are a pattern mutation as well as colour.

Amber's are the result of a Pastel bred to an unproven line of "Cinnamon" Pastel (Amir - Snakes at Sunset), which obviously turned out not to be the traditional version of a Cinny or he would have produced Pewters.

As for lineages......there have been several Ghosts, Pastels, Albinos, Pieds, Axanthics and who knows what else pulled out of the wild and/or hatched from wild females in Africa. Most of the named lineages are by the origional producers of that particular mutation, many go un-named after it's not a "new" thing anymore.

JonK

[atw]

Hi Randy,

I think I understand your last post but I am going to reiterate so I can make sure. You are saying:

There exists the remote possibility that breeding 2 lines of the same pastel morph could produce a double het that would resemble our common super pastel. This theoretical super, however, would have a different genetic makeup and as a result, it would need to be breed to verify its authenticity. Correct?

If this is what you are saying, I'll buy this but at the same time you would also have to consider the possibility of the theoretical super x normal breeding producing results that would lead you to erroneously conclude compatibility. Ultimately, however, you could reduce this probability by breeding our ‘theoretical super’ to many normal females in verify the stats you quoted. In other words, to prove your theory of compatibility you would require --in the best situation-- a min of 2 generations: 1 generation to produce your male super and 1 generation to breed it to several females. If you did not produce a super, or a problematic female super, you may require more generations to prove the lines. I think my theory would require a minimum of 1 generation and, at most, 2.

In the first generation you would breed supers from each line. If
anything but a super is produced, the lines are not compatible. If you
accept that 2 orange ghosts only producing orange ghosts represents a
compatible line, the same should follow for our first generation
supers. If, however, you still think that there exist the remote possibility of a random genetic aberration that would lead to the production of all our first generation fake supers, you would need to breed 1 of the questionable supers to produce pastels.

Do you agree?

Another thing I have been entertaining is the notion of breeding 2
different pastels morphs. Let's say you have 2 co-dom pastel traits like lemon and cinnamon instead of 2 bloodlines of the same morph. You breed them to create your new visible double het cross... let's call it LC. So you have a new morph but does it have a super form? I think that there would exist the possibility but the odds of hitting this super morph would be extremely slim if you consider that our visible double het is now indistinguishable from a lemon het cinnamon or cinnamon het lemon. In this sense the advantage of having visible hets becomes a disadvantage when breeding to co-dom traits and as a result, the super LC would probably remain a theory. I guess it doesn’t matter anyway because it would probably not be an interesting morph anyway :P

Do you know of any co-dom/co-dom morphs?

Adam

[RandyRemington]

There exists the remote possibility that breeding 2 lines of the same pastel morph could produce a double het that would resemble our common super pastel. This theoretical super, however, would have a different genetic makeup and as a result, it would need to be breed to verify its authenticity. Correct?

Correct.

theoretical super x normal breeding producing results that would lead you to erroneously conclude compatibility. Ultimately, however, you could reduce this probability by breeding our ‘theoretical super’ to many normal females in verify the stats you quoted

The fake super that is really just the combination of two different types of pastel like genes might just accidentally produce all pastels of one type or the other when bred to a normal. The expected ratio is only 1/4 normal so you could miss them in a small clutch (although you would also expect 1/4 more fake supers).

In the first generation you would breed supers from each line. If anything but a super is produced, the lines are not compatible.

The problem is that if the two supers are from lines created by different genes then you still produce all super looking double hets (i.e. fake supers).

Let's say you have 2 co-dom pastel traits like lemon and cinnamon instead of 2 bloodlines of the same morph. You breed them to create your new visible double het cross... let's call it LC. So you have a new morph but does it have a super form?

If lemon is the same as regular pastel then it's already been done, the combo is a pewter. The pewters might be big enough to breed this year so maybe we will get an answer as to if cinnamon and pastel are mutations of the same gene or not. Actually they might be different mutations of different genes that happen to be on the same chromosome and that might take a while to be sure they are not the same gene. So if pewter X normal does produce only a bunch of pastels and cinnamons but no pewters or normals then they are either the same gene (probably different mutations of that gene based on looks) or at least closely linked genes on the same chromosome.

But wait; have the same cinnamons that produced the pewter also produced a homozygous "super" cinnamon that is patternless? Maybe that indicates that it's not likely to be the same gene as pastel since the super looks so much different. If they are unlinked mutations it should eventually be possible to produce a super cinnamon super pastel (i.e. homozygous for both cinnamon and pastel). If they are the same gene you can't have more than two copies of the same gene and breeding pewter X pewter would only produce about 1/4 super cinnamon, 1/2 pewter, and 1/4 super pastel with no normals or more complex combos like super pastel cinnamon or pastel super cinnamon.

I can’t wait to see what pewters and ebony and the like produce bred to normals.

[Andy_G]

LOL you misunderstood what I meant Mykee, it was a joke, if I cared that much about genetic variety ball morphs would not even catch my eye, and believe me when I say they do. :)