dart frog sick

[nat_the_brat]

hi
wondering if ppl could help troubleshoot
one of my p. terribillis is getting progessively thinner and I can't seem to find any real reason why
he is in a group of four and about 3 weeks ago I noticed he was a little thinner then the others but not anything that seemed unhealthy. So I made extra effort to drump ff near him (as well as crickets and waxworms). As p. terribillis are aggressive feeders I assumed that it was simply a matter of the bigger guys getting to the food first

however, since then he is getting so thin you can see parts of his skeleton (hips, backbone etc).

I seperated him from the others and it seemed to make matters worse (same conditions as the others just different tank). He is reasponsive to movement from insects in his tank but he won't strike at them (he follows the movement around the tank but won't eat them). I have seen him eat the odd ff but nothing like he should be eating.

I thought it could be parasites but then wouldn't the others show some sign? Also he seems very active and is constantly exploiring his tank.

My only other thought is impaction however I have never actually dealt with impaction myself and do not know what to look for. In addition to this, the substrate is large aquarium gravel covered in moss so I don't know how likely that would be.

any ideas or suggestions would be great


his former tank mates are all extremely fat (well... what a p. terribillis should look like lol) and eatting everything in site.

[ortega]

what is the progress on your frog.

[nat_the_brat]

he is still thin... doesn't seem to want to gain any weight
but he's not loosing any weight
and he's quite alert and active
not eating as much as the others do but still interested in his food.

[Laurier]

watch your other frogs, ussually when this happens there is a bully in the tank and the bully ussually only picks on one indivdual at a time untill he kills everyone. Best thing to do is put even more food in the tank or create a larger environment. Just some experience that I came across with.

Laurier

[nat_the_brat]

that's what I thought to but I have watched them carefully for hours on end for this kind of behavior and there's no way there isn't enough food in the enclosure... a carpet of fruitflies.. lol

I picked the terribillis because of good results of keeping them in colonies but I guess darts no matter what species you keep is going to have competition regardless.

something odd happened just today to add to the matter. In the virarium where the colony is kept, there was a dart flipped on his back today when I got home. Do darts compete and display aggression by flipping eachother over? I have heard of them pinning eachother down but I haven't heard of them being flipped over. After I righted him he has been fine or so it seems.

[Double J]

What sort of calcium supplement are you using?

Flipping onto the back with hind leg twitching is a sign of calcium or vitamin D3 deficiency... and due to their relatively quick growth to a large size, they are incredibly prone to it. This can be fatal.

What supplement(s) are you using? How often are you feeding? Are you feeding only flies?

I highly suggest that you switch to using BOTH Ultra fine Rep-Cal Calcium with D3 AND Herptivite. These both are availble from Petsmart, or online from www.globalexoticpets.com

If you do not make this switch... your frogs will likely die. Also, I recommend calcium baths for the frog(s) flipping onto their backs.

Another point, terribilis tend not to do well on fruit flies alone. They need crickets...... and crickets of a decent size relative to theirs. You can never feed an adult terribilis enough flies..... they will not keep a good weight on. Crickets are a necessity for a meaty dart frog like Phyllobates terribilis.

Good luck

Double J

[nat_the_brat]

thanks for the info, I was dusting with rep-cal but i don't have the herptivite. i will get some.
the terribillis are on a half cricket half ff diet. the pet store sometimes doesn't have appropriate sized crickets so I use the ff and tend to alternate between the two of them ... they get at least a good 5-10 crickets each on top of the ff every week and usually more
thanks for the tips.

[nat_the_brat]

and i have never heard of a calcium bath before ? any pages about it that would point me in the right direction?

[concept3]

I dont know of any sites, but a calcium bath is just dissolving some calcium into water and letting them soak in it. as for the amount of calcium you should use i am unsure of because I do not keep dart frogs. If you have been supplementing them with Calcium and D3 I doubt they have a calcium defficincy.

[Double J]

Your terribilis should be eating a lot more than that. I give *each* of my mints at least 25-30 crickets per day.... plus they eat the springtails that have colonized that tank. I will toss in some flies every so often for kicks in conjunction with their regular cricket quota. Since terribilis grow rather quickly for a dart frog... their systems are in a bit of overdrive. They need all the resources they can muster to build their relatively large bodies in a short amount of time.... so they are far more prone to stunted growth and calcium deficiency than other Dendrobatids.
Up your feed counts.... and this may prove to be the answer to your troubles. If they are only getting 5-10 dusted crickets plus flies... they are likely not getting enough calcium. The supplements you are using are great.. but don't forget the herptivite. I supplement with both every feeding.. which of course is every day.

Good luck.

[nat_the_brat]

i don't understand how a terribillis can eat that many crickets a day...unless they are tiny. what size are you talking about? mine are eating crickets that are up to 3/4 to 1/2 of an inch though I try to keep them smaller then that its hard to find anything smaller avaliable... If I dump 10 3/4 - 1/2 of an inch crickets in their enclosure there are always some running around a couple days later and when most of them are eaten I dump more in. Lots of the time the frogs stare at them and could care less. thanks for your info though, appreciate it. I will fiddle with their diet and try to get them to eat more. One thing I am confused about is why would the three healthy frogs I mentioned be so fat? Terribillis are natural a robust frog and these 3 look typical of any picture I have ever seen of an adult terribillis. thanks for any insight you have... its really helpful.

[Double J]

I was under the assumption that these were juveniles.

I tend to feed my mints 1/4 inch crickets. It is thought that dart frogs have a better feeding response to smaller prey items, so they will feed more vigorously on a greater number of smaller prey items than a few larger ones. My mints, and most of my other darts as well, tend to eat everything immediately when I dump the feeders into the tanks. This could be Pavlovian in nature though, as I feed soon after misting, so the frogs have been trained in a sense to expect food after their shower.

Now, in terms of caloric value, fewer larger crickets can be equal to a greater number of smaller crickets. If your frogs are robust, then they have a good weight on them. So, the amount of crickets you feed your frogs depends on the size of the crickets.

If you are waiting until all of the feeders are gone before you dump more in, this could be related to a calcium deficiency. This is because the calcium and vitamin coating will wash/wipe off rather quickly, especially in a humid dart frog tank. Thus, when the frogs are eating the crickets, there is little-to-no calcium left on them.

If you have healthy, robust frogs that are exhibiting the flipping behaviour, something needs to be done immediately to prevent them from dying. If it is happening to one frog, then there is a good chance that the others are calcium or D3 deficicent as well. I lost three mints to this in the past, and it is not fun. In my case, I was using a supplement called Miner-All. When I switched to Rep-Cal, my problems disappeared. This actually happened to another dart frog keeper at the same time as me... who interestingly was using Miner-All (from the same batch as mine if I am not mistaken) as well. He had the same problems, and remedied it in the same way as I did. Our results were astonishingly similar.
As for the calcium baths, simply eyeball it.... as in, just dissolve some of your rep-cal into a small container with some water, put your frog into it, and put a lid on it. The water should be about 1/2 of an inch deep for these frogs. Keep the frog in there for about 25 minutes, and then put him back in his vivarium. I would do this three or four times per week for the next few weeks.

I highly recommend you switch to smaller prey items. Your frogs will eat more vigorously, and will get more calcium as there is a greater surface area to volume ratio of smaller bugs. Therefore there will be more calcium per gram of food.

Good luck

[nat_the_brat]

hi again
I swung by the pet store and asked them if by chance they had any smaller crickets and their last batch just so happened to be 1/4 inch crickets so I bought tons of them and dumped them in (I dumped about 20 in and kept the rest for later). Couple where eaten but they were excited (probably cause they had larger ones yesterday) thanks for your advice. I have yet to see them flip themselves since the one incidient I saw several days ago but i will give them a calcium bath and track down some herptivite to go with the rep-cal.

[nat_the_brat]

by excited I meant to say not that excited.