Disadvantages to large females and large clutch sizes??

[Bristen]

ok, somebody told me via email that there are pros/cons to large females and large clutch sizes... I won't name any names, but they have high-end ball pythons and they post on ssnakess.com...

now I can definately understand the pros, but I just can't figure out what kind of cons there would be... Anybody going to help me out? I just can't figure it out.. higher food bill or something? Seems that the pros would far out-weight the cons??

I'm puzzled...

Thanks,
Bristen.

[honduranfreekk]

Bristen when I had that talk with somebody here lol ;) I was puzzled also.
I just dont see the cons out-weighing the pros and will say the same thing here lol.
SEND ME ALL YOUR BIG FEMALES and I will GLADLY send you the cash for them and I will suffer the CONS ;)

I also RESPECT this person and he should send me all his oversized females also ;)

Bristen maybe WE are both missing something here:)

Kelvin@Brigitte

[BOAS_N_PYTHONS]

KELVIN:

Step aside I want them first, lol.

Cya...

Tony

[Jeff_Favelle]

If someone told you the cons, then why not tell us what they are and we can discuss them? I mean, if they already told you the cons, I don't get your question, LOL!

Unless of course they just said "there are cons to having females that are too large", and then didn't explain themselves?

[CHRISANDBOIDS14]

Lol....Yeah?

C.

[Bristen]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
If someone told you the cons, then why not tell us what they are and we can discuss them? I mean, if they already told you the cons, I don't get your question, LOL!

Unless of course they just said "there are cons to having females that are too large", and then didn't explain themselves?

heh, come on Jeff.. didn't have your coffee yet? Of course I would not be asking if he had told me LOL!! You had it right in the last paragraph... he just said there where "pros and cons".. but did not specify any of either one...

I can easily think of plenty of "pros", but no "cons".. he doesn't want to tell me and it's driving me bananas! heh.. it's got me puzzled though... It's interesting to see for most people it's like "cons, what cons?"... so maybe he's making all of that up just to pull my chain, who knows ha!

Thanks,
Bristen.

ps: maybe I'll have to ask on the "other site"?? hmm.. and the quest for answers continues...

[Jeff_Favelle]

A "reputable" tells you that there "are cons to breeding large female Ball Pythons", but then goes to say "I'm keeping it a secret, na na na na"???

Huh? Just walk away, not worth your time. LOL! If there's a con, say so. If not, then why be so cryptic about it?? If its an observation that he's had over many breedings, then awesome. SHARE! Everyone would like to know and maybe it can be of some benefit.

Sounds like a whole lot of effort going in to nothing. In fact, I wish I had the last 20 minutes of my life back...........

;)

[Bristen]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
A "reputable" tells you that there "are cons to breeding large female Ball Pythons", but then goes to say "I'm keeping it a secret, na na na na"???

Huh? Just walk away, not worth your time. LOL! If there's a con, say so. If not, then why be so cryptic about it?? If its an observation that he's had over many breedings, then awesome. SHARE! Everyone would like to know and maybe it can be of some benefit.

I don't know Jeff... I'm just the newb here on the ball python scene... not sure why it's not being shared... but we're just having a fun conversation... I'm not about to trade any big girls I have here for wigglers, I don't think so ;)


Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
Sounds like a whole lot of effort going in to nothing. In fact, I wish I had the last 20 minutes of my life back...........
;)

LOL!!! well, that was funny... sorry to have wasted 20 minutes of your life Jeff hehehe...

Later,
Bristen.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Not you Bristen. I wasted it myself. That's the kicker.........


LOL!

[hhw]

I don't know about BREEDING larger females, but there are definitely cons to BUYING larger females.

1) They could be WC
2) They cost a lot more
3) They may have been bred several seasons in a row, and may need a year off
4) Reputable breeder

Now obviously, you would want to deal with someone reputable so you don't get scammed. Problem is, a reputable breeder with big females are going to be too busy breeding them to sell them :P Heck, I'd be highly suspect of any breeder selling a large female for less than a small fortune.

[Herpsrus]

This may be just a coincidence to the subject you are talking about. But, My 3800 gram female who usually gives 10-12 eggs no sweat, bacame egg bound with 2 eggs this pass season. She had the year before last off and she will have this season off. She is a big girl who eats rats without hesitattion.

Mike

[paulsreef]

What did you do about it? If you saw a vet, can you refer me to them. Thanks, Paul.

[Bristen]

hhw, those were good points.. never thought of the aspect of "buying" them... perhaps it was one or more of the points you mentionned he was thinking, I dunno.. at least I have something to chew on now heh...

Thanks for the reply,
Bristen.

[Piers]

It took you 20 minutes to read and respond Jeff? Man I thought I was slow!lol You type the one finger way? I found that 2 fingers though much trickier is much faster once mastered.
Just sh-ts and giggles Jeff.
Piers

[mannannan]

In an overly large (read heavy) female (or male for that matter), there's always the possibility of it being powerfed, and therefor will have shorter lifespan and less clutches maybe?
Just a thought...

[RandyRemington]

I'd like to hear about the resolution to the egg binding also. I'm getting the idea it's pretty rare in ball pythons (at least compared to corn snakes). I've heard of one that eventually passed it on her own and another where it was messaged out but that's it.

My two biggest/fattest females didn't produce last year. I think I over fed them in a rush to get them big. They aren’t that old of animals (about 7 years) but where pushing 4,000 grams and didn’t really have the length yet to justify that weight. Perhaps decreased fertility could be a problem with very fat girls but hopefully not the big ones that aren't over fat.

I remember with the larger breeds of cattle (Semital?) they used to complain that they took longer to reach maturity and longer to recover from having a calf and re-bred.

Maybe when comparing a genetic giant line of ball pythons to a moderate sized one you can grow the daughters up quicker and breed them more reliably with the moderate sized ones. I know my best producer (5 years in a row) is a moderate sized girl. She is only just 2000 grams now and her biggest clutch so far was 7. However she has never laid an egg that didn't hatch so she is my old reliable and a good choice for an important project.

[Markus Jayne]

I have bred both large (4800 grams) and small girls (1500 grams) and many in between.

In speaking to lots of breeders that breed big numbers, it is common to hear them say that their big FAT girls just won't go for them. I think the operative word here is FAT...not big.

Yes we live in a world that is time sensative and rushing what would naturaly take time in nature, to suit our own needs, is very common. This does not always translate into a positive end to the means.

Bigger is not always better or should I say fatter is definitely not better!

Traditionally my best clutches come from females that are not fat in anyway and if anything I would say they are a little under-weight. My biggest disapointments have come from my biggest and fattest females. How about 10 slugs from a Mojave breeding? That one hurt!!!

Also I have found that my odds on big clutches are always worse than my small clutches. But that is just my luck, nothing to do with size.

All in all, I would say that keeping females svelt and sexy is the best plan. Fat just doesn't cut it in the long run.

By the way, the 4800 gram female was under-weight at the time. She laid 14 eggs. (Mike perry's female on breeding loan.)

Are we having fun yet? You bet we are!

Markus

[Bristen]

Valuable information there Mark. I think the issue is probably not how "big" the females are, but rather how "fat" are they.. overweight females are probably no good... but large females (as in long and full) probably would be the best...

as far as a Mojave breeding producing 10 slugs, I honestly think that would of been enough to make me cry... ARGH!!! All part of the fun I guess!

Thanks for the post Markus!
Bristen.

[Darren179]

It is because Jeff thinks before he posts. He doesnt want to blab out useless clutter. ;). Kind of like the rat from the ninja turtles.

All in all, I would say that keeping females svelt and sexy is the best plan

lmao off Mark. What defines Svelt and Sexy for your female snakes. If you dont want your fatties I can take them off your hands absolutely free!

[RandyRemington]

But group thinking out loud can have its benefits too.

My two fattest females didn't produce but I don't have enough experience by myself to be sure it's a trend. Then I hear from someone like Mark about his experience and also what he has heard from big breeders and I'm thinking we have some pretty decent evidence that fat looking female ball pythons might not be the best breeders.

Sure some bad ideas get thrown out there some times but a lot of good ones do too. I’d like to think most of us are able to sift through the data and find the good stuff.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Fat females and fat males definitely don't reproduce as prolifically. But you also have to remember that a Ball Python is a naturally stout snake. So a FAT Ball Python is downright MASSIVE. Like a Blood Python. Probably not many people here have actually seen or owned a fat Ball Python.

Festively plump and good muscle-tone and you can't go wrong.

[mykee]

I agree, I like to keep my females (snake or not) plump, yet toned, 'cause fat-bottomed girls they make the rockin' world go 'round.

[marisa]

'Heap big woman, you made a bad boy out of me, Hey hey!'


Lots of good information in this post! I have enjoyed reading through all of it. :)

Marisa

[Jeff_Favelle]

LOL!

[RandyRemington]

I don't have a pic of either suspected "too fat girl" at her peak fatness but here is a pic of one of them not too long before her peak.

What do you think, fat?

http://ratrun.home.comcast.net/images/Snakes/F97BPetBelly.jpg

[smeagel]

How much does she weigh? Looks pretty good, but i'm no expert. From what I have heard, if a snakes scales are stretching apart then it is overweight, but i don't know how true this is.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Not even close to overweight. That's a typical pre-breeding season adult from what I've seen and owned.

[Bartman]

All of my ball look like that, except kind of for my male who is starting to slim down and get longer. My latest female is very nice and plump.

Great thread though, ive learned a lot. I think im going to wait even a bit longer until I breed the two girls I have, and make sure they arent fat but more of just a good size.

[RandyRemington]

She eventually got up to 4,000 grams, I'm not sure where she was in the picture.

The 2nd fattest girl I attempted to breed last year that also failed I was sure was gravid (inverted a lot etc.) so I didn't even offer food most of the summer and she ended up loosing 500 grams and now looks much more like the girls I've successfully breed so will hopefully go this year.

[lostwithin]

I would have to agree, I see no down side to a BIG snake, but A fat snake would have problems. Now if the snakes are not fat then the bigger the better.


Devon

[RandyRemington]

The problem will be telling what is fat and what isn't. The two that looked beyond presently plump to me where the two that unexpectedly didn't breed but I don't have the best pictures to show how they compared to less fat looking girls that did breed.

As far as the plain big (but not over fat) girls I would tend to agree with you that I would like to have a few but it would be nice to hear some data to back up their lack of a downside. Do girls like Joan's 17 egg ones lay ever year? Of course it might be hard to sort out cause and effect. Are they big because they aren't bred every year and perhaps they also are big because they weren’t first bred as young. It would be had to get enough data to really tell if genetically big girls tend to take longer to mature or to skip years. Even if they do there could be advantages to one 17 egg clutch every other year over say a 9 egg clutch every year. I read on another forum that Joan in a recent year had one 10 egg clutch and two 17 egg clutch. Rent a high end male for one year and get 44 babies out of breeding him to 3 females (heck, time it really well and rent him for a week).

[Jeff_Favelle]

You can tell what's fat and what isn't in 2 seconds. Pick the snake up and see if has the muscle tone to double back on itself. If you're at the point of breeding snakes, I would say you've handled a few dozen and its really quite easy to tell if a Ball is either fat and lazy or healthy and plump. Pictures are hard, obviously. Pick it up? Night and day easy.

[RandyRemington]

Both big girls where muscular but noticeably fatter than the ones that actually produced. Not a big enough sample size to draw a very strong conclusion but I'm hopeful they might do better this year a little slimmer.

If one where really motivated to get to the bottom of it perhaps a ratio could be developed to calculate stockiness via a weight to length ratio (shouldn’t it increase with the square of the length?) so as to quantify the likelihood of being over fat. It still wouldn’t be perfect as some individuals might be muscular and stocky without being as fat as another of the same build. Maybe after years of careful record keeping we would know if it is common for female ball pythons to be too fat for good breeding results or not.