what a life a tortoise has.....

[beth wallbank]

Isn't this pathetic.....lazy things. Don't you wish all you had to do all day is eat, sleep, and *****?

[Linds]

Too cute :p

[sSNAKESs.com]

lol and age like a fine wine!! HEHE

[Chris R]

It is very unfortunate that way too many "hobbyists" feel they have somehow "saved" an animal by sticking it in a wooden box on newspaper substate for their amusement. Have you given them any other option but to eat, sleep and s**t? A comment like that shows no respect for the natural world or what should be the goal of every reptile keeper. Russian tortoises have very specific captive husbandry requirements which are very hard for an average herp collector to meet. Some are only active for a few months of the year. Please try not to EVER forget how these animals ended up in your collection. Thousands upon thousands of Russians(I think the total CITES quota for year 2000 was in the neighborhood of 50,000 or so) are plucked from the wild each year. Many do not reach their intended destinations in North America and Europe alive. Many more die after arrival because of the deplorable conditions in which they are kept in warehouses while awaiting being sold to pet stores and then on to the consumer(In this case, you). About 10 Russian tortoises die for every one that arrives in a collectors home. I see 4 wild-caught Russians in your photo...that means that you are responsible for the deaths of 40 more...40! the numbers are staggering and the sad truth is that because Russians are cheap to import, sell for a cheap price and are difficult to breed, it will always expose them to the wild-caught animal trade in the same manner as Ball pythons and Savannah monitors. Uzbekizstan, Kazikstan and Turkmenizstan are the current countries being raped of their Russian tortoises among other reptiles. It is no coincidence that these are poverty stricken third-world countries. Can you blame the native trying to feed his family or the demand in which we have created?
Please be aware of these points if anything, and if you read this, you now are,

Chris R

[marisa]

I think you really jumped the gun on that post.

marisa

[dippy]

Huh...

[Chris R]

The truth hurts

[TonyL]

Chris R.

Just some thoughts.....

Some very enlightening and interesting points. However I think the post should of been placed in a thread on it's own. To jump on a person who has simply posted a simple picture without knowing anything about the person, their setup, their situation or for that matter anything at all is simply a rude thing to do!

I think that all opinions and facts should be heard however the appropriate time and place is important and this was simply not it.
You may want to set up this as an individual thread where it can illicit some conversation and other viewpoints.

[Katt]

I can understand Chris's enthusiasm for protecting tortoise species, a noble cause, I agree that you did jump the gun there Chris.

You don't really know Beth's set up, aside from that pic. She's not the one who plucked and raped these tortoises either, but at least she's got them and trying to breed them. I think that's a pretty noble thing as well.

Take a deep breath, there's a better way to forward your feelings without offending anyone and getting folkz to back away as opposed to listening.

[anothermonkey]

A few points to consider:

1. Beth may or may not take great care of her herps, I don't know that one way or the other, so while I won't attack her, I'm also not going to give her too much credit without knowing what she does or doesn't do.

2. If that actually is the tortoise home in the pic, then there is one glaring husbandry error. Newspaper is not a suitable substrate for these animals. Just as tree pythons and chameleons need branches, Russian torts need a sand/soil mix at least 12" deep because they've evolved to be burrowing animals. Without digging available, their instincts are frustrated and they are indeed, "pathetic".

3. For the sake of argument, let's say Beth's herp care is almost impeccable. An off the cuff post like hers that started this thread, could still give a newer, younger herper the wrong idea, so the post is at least inaccurate, and at worst, somewhat irresponsible. A little more reverence for the wild animals that wind up in our hands may be in order.

4. Beth did not kill 40 Russian torts. But nonetheless, that is the result of the wild animal trade through which, however directly or indirectly, she wound up with those animals. That's just a fact, not an accusation.

5. While breeding such animals in captivity may eventually supply the hobbyist market with more pets (maybe) it's not going to do anything to save wild populations from the combined pressures of habitat destruction, environmental pollution, and collecting for the trade. Once in captivity, these animals are ecologically "dead".

I thought Chris R was a little harsh, but maybe he's just sick of people's attitude in general to these animals. I don't think he was rude. Better to respond to such posts with facts and information instead of telling people to play nice when they say something you don't like, or maybe don't want to hear.

And make no mistake, animals in captivity are generally being exploited for our pleasure, just like the meat we eat and the leather we wear, and the medications we derive and test....etc. etc. Be realistic about your relation to the natural world. As a species we exploit it, it's what we do. The trick is to do it responsibly, keep it intact for future generations to exploit. There's nothing inherently wrong with keeping and breeding tortoises as pets, but there's nothing noble there either. If you want to be noble, save their habitat and leave them in it.

[Tim_Cranwill]

All the comments and advice are well intended, I think. But there is a better way to "educate". Jumping down someone's throat doesn't elicit an open ear. It is clear that you are passionate and knowledgeable about what you are speaking of. But maybe some of your comments were not exactly warranted.

Beth didn't "special order" these animals from the poachers, and she certainly didn't order the deaths of ten other tortoises for each one she does own. It is a likely fact that they were exported, but at least she will do her best to keep them in a caring and responsible way. And I'm sure she is open to any friendly advice.

If you notice something isn't right in the picture above, please comment, but do it in a civil and mature way without trying to "offend the offender". That is the type of community we are trying to maintain here.

Thanks.:)

[marisa]

If I posted a picture of my beloved iguana Roxy, sitting on my living room couch say, and included a comment about how lazy iguanas are that certainly doesn't mean she doesn't have an outstanding enclosure, and it certainly doesn't mean I think iguanas are lazy creatures who do nothing else. Andit doesnt mean I don't care for her right.

And I highly doubt it would cause a newbie iguana owner to suddenly believe it's alright to house their iguana on the couch full time. And I don't think it would warrant someone to suddenly rip into me about how iguanas are treated in captivity.

I just thought you jumped the gun because with two minutes of searching you could find other posts by Beth that show her commitment to animals and pictures of her other beautiful herps. I highly doubt her leos are treated so wonderfully, yet these torties are treated like garbage. That's all. I just thought it was rash, and a post that was posted without thinking first seeing as she posted it obviously to be a cute photo breaking from the normal husbandry questions on the forum.

marisa

[marisa]

I believe everyone made some wonderful points and used a thoughtful manner when posting.

Marisa

[beth wallbank]

Well, seems a simply amusing picture to some has gotten some people's short in knots. I have owned and BRED russian torts, box turtles, and various species for 15+ years now, and still in fact own my originals. Along with owning and PROPERLY caring for 120+ leopard geckos, 25+ cresteds, 25+ ball pythons, various coulbrids, chameleons, torts, dogs, cats and a family.
To let Chris know a bit about HOW I keep my animals, and the care and time I DO put into them, I have enclosed a few pics of my RUSSIAN tortoises play yard outside in my yard. As you can see, they have shade trees, sand/soil to dig in, herbs and grasses to eat, fruit growing and plenty of hides. THIS is thier home. Just to remind you, it is now NOVEMBER and a tad cold outside for the torts, and yes they do stay in a wooden playpen for the three months that it is pouring rain here in BC, but thier INDOOR enclosure is 4' x 4' for four torts, and they DO have hides, and dirt. They were in thier feeding box with the picture. I DON"T feed them directly where they defecate, so I use newspaper.
If the picture of the lazy tortoise did not please you at all, I DO have an email and a telephone.

[beth wallbank]

as you can see in the foreground, the torts are secured with a 4' wooden fence, with 1' chicken mess into the ground underneath.
The enclosure is 20' x 25' and holds 10 torts.

[beth wallbank]

just another view

[beth wallbank]

need any more?

[Tim_Cranwill]

Looks great Beth! I had faith in you;)

[Chris R]

If you people want to do something that is genuinely "noble" for tortoises and other reptiles, then please contact Andy C. Highfield at www.tortoisetrust.org and donate much needed funds to his organization. He uses the money for buying habitat and other research for reptiles. Keep the saving of animals up to professionals like him. Please do not hide behind the mask of your own greed. We, as amateur keepers, keep reptiles because we want to, because they entertain us, and usually nothing more. Breeding them somehow gives us the false sense that we are contributing to the species in a positive way. As anothermonkey stated, these animals are ecologically dead. I watch everyones breeding successes being traded like hockey cards all over the internet. A truly "noble" act. Nobility and Reptile keeping have nothing in common. I'm not saying, don't keep reptiles, pioneers such as Andy Highfield, Pritchard, Dean Ripa, Indraneil Das etc. undoubtedly kept reptiles at first before their contributions, I'm just saying, have a little respect and don't call live animals pathetic.
Why are wild caught corn snakes still traded in this day and age, for genetic diversity? are we that foolish?

Chris R.

[Scotty Allen]

I knew there was a fund raising plot coming up somewhere. Can anybody else smell PETA. Beth, I salute you for the way you maintain your tortoises, keep it up. Those photos should be a model for everyone.

[silke]

i think the pix of the lazy torts is cute and their playground is lovely
i also like the enclosures and racks of your other critters that you posted pix of not so long ago :)

[beth wallbank]

Thank you Scotty,........coming from a model such as yourself, that makes me feel a whole lot more better. And the same to Cranwill.

[beth wallbank]

thanks Silke

[Chris R]

A predictable response from a commercial breeder/dealer, Mr. Allen. I'm not a bleeding heart, nor a fundraiser, I just like to expose the industry for what it is.

[dippy]

Who are you exposing the industry to by going into nice threads and jumping on people like this?

[Tim_Cranwill]

Who are you trying to expose, people who love and respect their pets???? Get a grip, buddy. Maybe you should find something more useful to do with your time than badgering experienced reptile owners. Isn't there a Home-Depot you should be picketing?

[Big Mike]

Chris,
You may be fighting for a just cause but you are fighting the wrong people in the wrong place and you are not accomplishing much by lashing out at the people here. If you care about trying to make a difference there are better places you could be spending your time and effort.

[Scotty Allen]

*LOL* Can anyone please tell me when the last time was that I bred anything besides mealworms? Boy, I sure wish that I could breed t-shirts and books instead of having to buy them.

[Chris R]

Beth loved and respected her cherished pets so much as to sell them to a commercial dealer in Toronto, odd. The intraprovincial transport of tortoises without CITES and Agricultural Canada paperwork is illegal under WAPRITA as is the commercial trade of tortoises in Canada.

I never said she wasn't an experienced keeper cranwill, although an experienced keeper would know that Russian tortoises hibernate in the wild from 3 to 9 months of the year depending on locality. Not hibernating them puts stress on their organs, especially their renal system, shortening their lifespan. It is also almost impossible to breed them without hibernation.

The 3 she sold were apparently proven breeders. I am highly skeptical of CB Russians in Canada. I saw a guy with a CH Russian once, but never true CB. Can someone post a pic and prove me wrong?

[Chris R]

You are totally correct in saying that I am fighting the wrong people in the wrong place Big Mike, that is a valid point. That's why I usually stay off these forums, but once in a while I see something that deserves a response.

[beth wallbank]

Well Chris....it seems that you know so much about me then can you explain the eggs in my incubator? And who made you the tortoise Almighty protector? I have had my original 4 russian tortoises since 1987, and these were purchased in a PETSTORE in North Bay, Ont. in North Gate Mall.
I HAVE produced tortoises and box turtles, and the "commercial" breeder that supposeably purchased my tortoises that HAVE produced for me came to me as a private breeder, not a store.
Before you start dictating to people what they should be abiding by and what they do with thier animals, you should take a step back and take a look at your own collection......seems to me I recall seeing monitors for sale at your table at the TARAS show two months ago........hmmmmm.....and I was recommended to you for my search for a frog eyed gecko female.....your words to me were there are some around but all WC......hmmm...
And as for the babies that the RUSSIANS have produced for me, how many pictures would you like? I have hundreds. And each and every baby that has hatched here is STILL here, or given to CLOSE friends.

[Greg West]

I may be wrong, but I think that you are talking about the wrong person. I don't believe the e-mail address @rogers.com is from Alberta. I believe it would be an Ontario address, but I might be wrong.

Greg West

[beth wallbank]

Thank you Greg for the heads up, and if it is so, then a BIG appology to the wrong Chris.

[Dom]

Chris,

You are a new user and I welcome you to the forums although U are not making a very good name for yourself by attacking someone that truly did not deserve it. Please refrain from personally attacking our members.

Your oppinion is valued and wanted, but insults and low blows are not.

Thanks for understanding,

Dom

[anothermonkey]

Marisa wrote: "And I highly doubt it would cause a newbie iguana owner to suddenly believe it's alright to house their iguana on the couch full time."

Someone on this forum has "Never underestimate human stupidity" as a signature beneath their posts. I tend to agree with that, which is why I think yes, someone, somewhere, might well wind up with a couch-iguana or a "lazy" newspaper-tortoise. Maybe. Big shrug.

Marisa also wrote: "And I don't think it would warrant someone to suddenly rip into me about how iguanas are treated in captivity."

Warranted or not, if someone comes at me with their keyboard blazing, I prefer to trade facts instead of complaining about real or perceived rudeness. Beth came back with photos, to her credit. That's a nice outdoor pen...if you have pics of their winter quarters and your babies, that'd be cool to see too.

It's not a PETA thing (I think that remark may have been directed more at the Highfield thing, whom by the way, has done some great work), but I do stand by my beliefs that usually, keeping reptiles is just fun, not noble. Nothin' wrong with the fun part (plenty wrong with the death part), I just like to see things as they are.

[derek]

i think we all just have to take a step back for a sec. and look at what this all started from....i cute pic of some torts! ohhh well beth i think you have some very nice setups and torts. tnx for sharing the pics:)

[anothermonkey]

You're right, Derek. It was just a pic of some tortoises that stirred everything up ... it's kind of funny, from a certain point of view.

Beth, do you have any of those baby pics from your Russian torts offspring ready to post yet?

[beth wallbank]

I think what you are looking for is on my webshots albums....http://community.webshots.com/user/betsycow

[anothermonkey]

Thanks for the link to your photo album, some great geckos you've got there...I especially like red Cresteds. But I was asking to see pics of your Russian tort offspring that you'd mentioned above...couldn't find them in the album you sent the link for...am I just computer illiterate or was that the wrong link?

If you have any full enclosure pics for your adult torts winter quarters, that'd be cool too...I'm always interested in other keepers tortoise housing and design.

Cheers.

(Not a member of PETA, but I play one on tv)

[anothermonkey]

An earlier post by Beth Wallbank:

"And as for the babies that the RUSSIANS have produced for me, how many pictures would you like? I have hundreds. And each and every baby that has hatched here is STILL here, or given to CLOSE friends."

None of these photos have been posted. So what we have is a big flame war and no resolution. Everyone makes cracks about PETA and how "mean" Chris R is....granted...he's about as subtle and tactful as a train wreck...Beth posts a bunch of photos of her backyard, and everything goes quiet.

Look, I should probably just let this go, but did it occur to anyone that part of the reason there are all these stupid arguments from time to time on every forum, is because people on both sides make sweeping statements without backing them up?

For all I know maybe Beth's busy or something and hasn't had a chance to post, but as far as incontrovertible evidence of "proven Russian torts", well there just isn't any at this point. If someone challenges your husbandry practices or doubts your breeding success with a difficult species, provide proof instead of ganging up on them.

That solved nothing, and it proved nothing.

[boa maniac]

hello all, i too would like to see some pics, not that i do not believe beth, i just want to see the little babies!!!!! also the eggs that are incubating.
Also i must add, this has been the most entertaining forum on ssnakes thus far!!! I enjoyed everyones post and i believe everyone is entitled to their own opinion and to be honest when i first started reading the post i tended to agree with chris's points about the proper husbandry of tortoises. ( i was a little disturbed by the pic as well, tortoises on newspaper!!! sheesh!! but this is there feeding spot, so thats ok!! they can be quite messy!!! hee hee!!) as long as they are kept properly and with the proper substraint. and with the right ammount of U.V. lighting so they dont suffer from soft shell syndrom then there is perfectly nothing wrong with keeping russian tortoises, even though we are perpetuating the continued wrongful harvest of wild animals!!! But if beth is doing what she says she is and captive breeding these beautiful little tortoises then at least she is attempting to supply the pet trade with captive bred animals and at least in some way preventing the wrongful death of 10 tortoises for every captive born she produces. And maybe, just maybe, if there are more people out there breeding these tortoises well then this act will eventually kill the market for wild caught animals and thus saving a species!!! if there is no demand for wild caught then there is no market!!!! thanx all for the most enlightening forum!!!!!

[Lovley Monica]

Yeah what He said............. :D Cute Tortoises Beth!!!!

[katev17]

The outdoor enclosure looks great! Geez, it must be fun to be one of your Russian torts! [Hey at least they can read the comics while pooing, right?]

[Dom]

very interesting forum.. tx for keeping it civilized ..

NIce tortoises and outside pen Beth .. I am not surprused by how amazing the pen is!