So mojave owners

[marisa]

How many of you are just giggling right now? :D

Marisa

[honduranfreekk]

marisa I am crying that I did not get one when I was thinking about it DAYYYYYMMMMMMMMMM.Now Im KICKING my self:(

Markus I should have listened to you :( lol

You snooz you looze and I SNOOZEDDDD lol

Kelvin@Brigitte

[marisa]

Think of all the people who paid for lessers and/or platinums with the sole purpose of making Blue Eyed white snakes? They could have saved thousands by simply purchasing Mojaves when they were cheap.

Wow.

Marisa

[nita]

I'm still waiting to see what is up with the lesser platty's, platty's, butters, phantoms, etc. that when mixed all produce the same phenotype, makes ya wonder what is going on with those genetics. Would be nice if a breeder would take the time to line breed and see what is actually going on with the genetics but the people with the money to afford them are too busy crossing them with everything else. Too bad they couldn't do genetic screening and profiling through blood tests so we would actually know.

[marisa]

I know literally ZERO about genetics compared to some on this forum.

But does anyone else suspicious that butters, platinums and lessers are just varieties of the same gene mojaves? For one look at normals. You can have some almost black they are so dark, while others are almost pastels they are so light. All are normals. Is it not possible that butters, lessers and mojaves are all the same snake just different shades? I mean that might be totally 100% off, but it would seem that way considering today's outcome with the Mojaves.

Marisa

[Herpsrus]

marisa I am crying that I did not get one when I was thinking about it DAYYYYYMMMMMMMMMM.Now Im KICKING my self


Tell me about it. I was seriously considering one when you could get them for $6000 US. It will be another couple years before I choose to fork over a small fortune as purchase one!!!

Mike

[honduranfreekk]

Mike I hear you there man.I was offered one for around the same price.I wish I had it now lol.

Mike you have mail bud;) I got the pics you sent thank you.She looks good bro.

Kelvin@Brigitte

[Tim_Cranwill]

I am sad and excited all at once! :( :D :(

[Markus Jayne]

Marisa,

I think you are bang on!

Markus

[nita]

Yup, I agree with you 100% Marissa, I think that phantoms are the low end "Mojave's" and Butters and Platty's are top end "Mojave's".

[morph]

platty's are not mojaves guaranteed

Scott

[CHRISANDBOIDS14]

Where are the blood tests?! Lol.

I never thought about that but what Marisa sudgested does make VERY much sense!

Morph: So lets see.....Phantom = Low mojave.......Mojave=Mojave.......Lesser=High Mojave......Platty=Super Mojave??? Sounds ok to me.....no?

Alright, a little while ago there was a discussion about Mojave to Mojave breedings. Has ANYONE done this yet?!?!?! Markus? Also, has Ralph Davis bred any of his Phantoms to his Phantoms yet? Im thinking that if Marisa's theory is right......this could be like a "double co-dominant"??? If you get what im saying......since co-dom = two snakes of one genetic combo Ie: pastel. Well this would be like 4 of the same if that applies......then it would be 2 times co-dom?! Am I making sense or just full of it?! Lol. I thought about "double co-dom" awhile ago....but never asked anyone about it since it sounded crazy but now since the topic is up? Anyways.....I'll shut up now! Lol.

C.

[honduranfreekk]

Morph King reptiles just proved them out when bred together that is MojavexMojave they got a BLUE EYED LUCY

Kelvin@Brigitte

[CHRISANDBOIDS14]

LoL! Well then forget what I said! I had heard many rumors that they had been bred and there was debate about it, but thanks!

C.

Edit: What else came out of that breeding? Just Mojaves?

[honduranfreekk]

There was one lucy and one normall sibling male from the clutch.

[Scales Zoo]

2 eggs, one blue eyed lucy, one normal.

I'd post a link to the posting on another sights ball forum, but I can't.

This has to make some people very happy. And to all the people who had openly laughed at the drop in prices of mojaves, hehe - jokes back on you.

I wonder if this white ball is going to thrive? Anyone know how other white ones are doing, and if there is a "lethal white" in any super co-doms?

Ryan

[Scales Zoo]

Oops, did not see Honduranfreaks post when I posted the above.

But, statistically being co-dominant (incomplete dominant actually), 1 super mojave, 2 mojaves, and 1 normal should have came of 4 eggs. They only had 2 eggs, and looks like the odds gods complied on the super.

Too bad I didn't like ball morphs more, would be fun to be playing the game, and right in the thick of things. I'd have probably missed out on the mojaves originally however.

I wonder if they bought all the cheap mojaves before releasing the pictures of the breeding. Would have been a good idea, and "doh!" if they didn't think about it.

Ryan

[marisa]

I believe the other Lucys Ralph has hatched out have all done fine and are thriving, but I am not sure how old the oldest one is. Must be over a year now though at least.

Marisa

PS. Ryan, it would have been smart to buy them all up since they knew a white snake was in the egg before it hatched. I would have starting buying then!

[Ron]

Originally posted by marisa
I believe the other Lucys Ralph has hatched out have all done fine and are thriving, but I am not sure how old the oldest one is. Must be over a year now though at least.

Marisa

PS. Ryan, it would have been smart to buy them all up since they knew a white snake was in the egg before it hatched. I would have starting buying then!

I don't think MK needs anymore Mojaves; I think they bought 2 or 3 pairs the first year that TSK produced them so I am sure they have plenty.

I wouldn't get too excited about the Lucy's Mojaves produce as they seem to have a yellow stripe. Ralph says the ones produced from his Platty Daddy x Lesser are pure white but the ones produced from his Lesser x Phantom have the yellow stripe. I still think it's cool they produced a white snake but now it's gonna be "my Lucy is whiter than your Lucy".

[hhw]

Originally posted by morph
platty's are not mojaves guaranteed

Scott

What makes you so certain?
lesser platty x lesser platty = leucistic
lesser platty x mojave = leucistic
mojave x mojave = leucistic

Unlike snows, which are the result of mutually exclusive pigment blocking genes working together, mojaves and platinums have pigments in common... in fact, their pattern mutation is pretty much identical and their colours aren't that far off from each other, so why would they produce leucies when crossed if the alleles aren't at the same locus? Is it just some coincidental combination? When someone breeds a lesser platty x mojave leucy to a normal and gets distinctly different lessers and mojaves, perhaps there will be some indication that this isn't the case. However, until then, I really can't see how someone can guarantee anything either way without any supporting evidence.

[hhw]

Originally posted by Scales Zoo
But, statistically being co-dominant (incomplete dominant actually)

Since the mojave isn't an intermediary form between a leucistic and a normal, I would say that it is a true co-dominant gene.

[Scales Zoo]

Originally posted by hhw
Since the mojave isn't an intermediary form between a leucistic and a normal, I would say that it is a true co-dominant gene.

Um, duh - good point, and good example!

Gonna have to dye my hair darker again.

Ryan

[marisa]

I personally (again totally uneducated here) do not think a "yellow stripe" or not proves anything. With blizzard guttata you have some with bleeding yellow, and others who are pure white. I think it is just a variation within the gene, much like how some normals have nice black backs while others have spots, and still others have both.

Again this might be totally wrong. I would hope they are the same two genes, over the option that one produces a faint yellow striped lucy, the other no yellow stripe lucy. That would be just petty and confusing as all heck! :D

Marisa

[RandyRemington]

It will be interesting to try to figure out if lesser, mojave, and phantom are the exact same mutation of the same gene (with other genetics making the differences between the lines) or perhaps different mutations of the same gene (alleles). A good test will be when RDR's 2003 male leucistics from lesser X phantom start to breed. Even then it will not be for certain but if their offspring to several normals all fall neatly into either lesser or phantom baskets it will tend to support the idea that they are alleles – actually fundamentally different mutations that just happen to be of the same gene. However I suppose it could still be that a single other gene determines the difference and you could still get a neat 50/50 split.

My theory on lesser vs. platy is that platy is homozygous for a gene I call dilute that turns a lesser into a platy. This dilute gene doesn't seem to have an effect by it's self without lesser. However, does it have an effect when het, perhaps it’s the single gene that turns phantom or even Mojave up a notch to lesser? Who knows… It sounds like lesser X normal produces 50% full blown lessers and not some mix of 25% mojaves and 25% lessers so I’m leaning toward the allele idea for now unless someone has seen varying quality lessers out of lesser X normal.

[Bristen]

Randy, I don't know if you saw it or not, but Ralph had some very interesting details on his journal recently (when he was barking at Bob)... check this out:

a) << The Snake Keeper say that a Phantom is not a Mojave..........each trait probably does the same thing........BUT the Mojave blows the doors off of a Phantom in the "looks department"....... >>

b) << Interesting thing in 04...........I produced a baby that is hands down a Mojave ( does not look like a Phantom ) from breeding Platty Daddy x Phantom??..........not Lesser x Phantom........but Platty Daddy x Phantom >>

Now "b)" is what really caught my attention.. is the phantom a mojave without the dilute gene perhaps? Is it possible that we have an animal (phantom) that actually proves the dilute gene? What are you thoughts on that Randy? My thoughts was that the platty daddy passed on the dilute gene to the phantom gene and thus created a mojave... but I could just be crazy...

[RandyRemington]

You might be onto something.

However, the Mojave looking animal from Platy Daddy X Phantom would only be het for dilute. If only being het dilute turned phantoms into either mojaves or lessers then there should be some phantoms produced from mojave X normal or lesser X normal. Ralph is the only one who posts detailed breeding results but he is getting pretty darn close to the expected 50% lessers from lesser X lesser. I guess the thing to look for would be variation in the quality of the lessers or mojaves from lesser or mojave bred to normal. I just don't know.

At first both Ralph and SnakeKeeper thought the phantom was a mojave but after looking closer they reported differences. I just don't know how to fully explain the differences between phantom, mojave, and lesser. Maybe they are each slightly different mutations of the same gene (alleles) or perhaps it is just other genes in each line like the dilute gene I'm theorizing in the lessers.

[Vengeance]

I think I missed something, anyone feel like pointing in the right direction to the thread I missed?

Thanks

[honduranfreekk]

marisa I am with you on this.I also believe the same thing and I also think that Ralph is going to iron it out soon lol;)

Shure would be nice to hear from the KING;)

Kelvin@Brigitte

[Tim_Cranwill]

Adam, it has just been proven that when you breed two Mojaves together, you can produce a leusistic ball python. That's what you missed! ;)

Check out http://forums.kingsnake.coooooom/forum.php?catid=79 (remove the extra O's ;)) Scroll down a bit and check out the pics. :)

[Vengeance]

Ahhhhhhh, Thanks Tim, I never read that "other" forum :P

[Bristen]

You might be onto something.

However, the Mojave looking animal from Platy Daddy X Phantom would only be het for dilute.
if it works like the traditional recessive morphs we are used to seeing... the fact that we've never seen a hypo of any kind come out of all the breeding info we have, I was thinking that the "dilute gene" theory is still applicable, but it may only be active in the presence of another particular gene (lesser/phantom)... dilute + lesser = platty daddy, dilute + phantom = mojave... this being said, crossing the butter/lesser may end up combining the butter with dilute producing a "butter daddy" (or whatever it would be called)... I don't know, it's all fun but very confusing... what really gets me is how platty daddy's are produced... how are platty daddy's produced? Platty Daddy x Lesser and Lesser x Lesser right?

[...] I guess the thing to look for would be variation in the quality of the lessers or mojaves from lesser or mojave bred to normal. I just don't know.
more time I guess.. more breedings, more babies, and everything should clear out.. it's interesting though because it may very well be something that we haven't seen before with regards to snake morph genetics.. it must be the greatest herp puzzle ever!?!?

At first both Ralph and SnakeKeeper thought the phantom was a mojave but after looking closer they reported differences. I just don't know how to fully explain the differences between phantom, mojave, and lesser. Maybe they are each slightly different mutations of the same gene (alleles) or perhaps it is just other genes in each line like the dilute gene I'm theorizing in the lessers.
we can only theorize for now I guess, but we should have much more to work with next year I bet...

Later,
Bristen.

[RandyRemington]

I was thinking that the "dilute gene" theory is still applicable, but it may only be active in the presence of another particular gene (lesser/phantom)... dilute + lesser = platty daddy

I actually got the idea to call it "dilute" from a rat genetics page that had a ton of "dilute" genes described and there was one that only showed up on top of other color morphs. Basically it had no visible effect on the wild type animal but would say turn black to blue or yellow to cream or something like that.

RDR has bred 5 pairs of normal looking offspring of platty daddy together and produced only 24 normals according to the birthing records. If platty daddy is homozygous dilute then all of his offspring should be, including the non lesser ones. Surly out of 24 offspring from het X het he got a homozygous dilute so it must just not show by it's self. The odds are literally 1 in 100 against not producing a homozygous out of 24 from het X het.

how are platty daddy's produced? Platty Daddy x Lesser and Lesser x Lesser right?

So far we know that platty daddy has produced 27 lessers and 31 normals bred to normals. Pretty close to a 50/50 split so it seems likely that platty daddy is het for a single gene I'll call "lesser" that makes the difference between his normal and lesser offspring.

RDR has also produced 3 platties from platty X lesser and 3 more from lesser X normal looking platty daddy offspring. The sample size is pretty small with both of these crosses so it's hard to work much out from the ratios but the fact that he has been able to produce platty daddy from lesser X normal siblings but not from many lesser X normal breedings (producing 35 lesser and 26 normals, tending to support that lesser is due to a single gene and doesn’t need something else daddy might be homozygous for) leads me to believe that the difference between lesser and platty is something that a platty needs to be homozygous for. Even though the sample size is small he is running high enough platty that I bet it's only one additional homozygous gene to get from lesser to platty and not several genes.

dilute + phantom = mojave

The difference between phantom and mojave and lesser seems more complicated than that.

If a mojave is a het for the phantom gene that is also homozygous dilute then bred to a normal for the dilute gene you would only get phantoms that where only het for dilute and not full mojaves. My understanding is that mojave X normal = 50% full mojaves and 50% normal and nothing inbetween like phantoms. I don't suppose we are going to get a bunch of breeding records for mojaves to see if that is the case though. But if the mojave is breeding true per it's co-dominant status then it must be a single gene like lesser appears to be or if more than one gene they must be linked by being close together on the same chromosome so as to stay together.

I'm still hard pressed to explain the differences between the apparently related phantom, Mojave, and lessers. I also don't know if being het for dilute counts for anything and might explain the difference between the lessers and the mojaves but if variation is seen in the 2nd generation lessers from lesser X normal (not from platty X normal) then I suppose it's possible. The allele (different mutations of the same gene) theory is the easiest explanation right now but maybe with more info on variations in groups of the same type (i.e. f2 lessers or f2 mojavies) it might be nailed down to other genes in addition to the basic het leucistic.

[Bristen]

Randy, you obvisouly understand this stuff way more than I do... I would really like to understand it all and to have the platty riddle all solved heh... Different mutation of the same allele makes sense I guess... it'll all get ironed out in the next few years, that's for sure.

Thanks for the comments Randy!
Bristen.

[RandyRemington]

These are just my guesses; nothing set in stone or for sure understood, more of a straw man sort of theory that we can test past and future breeding results against.