Peer review forum

[SCReptiles]

I think ssnakess has grown to the point where it could now support a legitimate peer review forum. I can’t speak for all forums, but as far as the venomous forum, we now have several members (Ray Hunter, Ray G, TT, Dr Fry, etc) that are internationally recognized and respected in their field.

For anyone who may not be familiar with peer review, a researcher publishes a research paper in peer review journals or peer review web sites. Peers in that field can then critique the research, make inquires, or make rebuttals. It is through these means research becomes widely accepted or rejected in the scientific community.

With Internet forums being notorious for arguments and baseless opinions, a peer review forum would have to be tightly moderated to maintain scientific credibility. For example, a few months ago I posted some research on the size of giant pythons. I quoted scientifically accepted records and my research was rejected by a peer on the basis of, he would have lied if he killed a big snake, so therefor the people who killed that snake in the record book must have lied to. Babble such as this would have to be filtered and all questions and rebuttals would have to be factually based and germane to the research on hand. Perhaps the option of review before post could be used.

I am interested to know what the owners of ssnakess think about putting forth a option that could advance the hobby. Also want the opinions of other ssnakess members. Would you like to see this site offer a platform for scientific research?

[Matt_K]

Although I think the idea is a good one and is something that the Moderators have thrown around a couple of times as something we'd like to try out, I just don't see it happening.. There are too many other things that we have to get accomplished on the site right now and unfortunatly, adding a new forum just isn't one of them... It still never hurts to get people's thought's on such ideas though..

-Matt

[Jayson]

It sure would make it easier to weed through all af the misinformation and persoanal opinions and get to actual facts.
Sounds like a great idea to me!

[marisa]

Well when you call others opinions "Babble such as this" as you so often seem to feel, regardless of who they came from, if they are right or not, etc, then you yourself would also need a high moderation level.

I agree with Matt. Some people hardly follow the rules on the forums we have, let alone another one with more rules.

Marisa

[joey]

...what's wrong with "personal opinions?"

[mykee]

Yeah, facts are much too black and white. If this site were all about facts, it would be boring as all hell. I wouldn't visit. It's the personal opinions and characters on this forum that make it what it is. You want just the facts, go buy Encyclopedia Britannica. I'd sooner hear people's opinions.

[katev17]

Joey - I don't think it's so much a problem of "personal opinions" as it is that when people are looking for research or reports or whatever, that facts are more important than opinions. Through sourcing and such, facts are 100% more reliable than opinions, as opinions way more than often incorporate infinite levels of bias. So basically, I don't think anyone's saying there's anything wrong with personal opinion, except in the case of research that should be based solely on facts, etc... (I'm not including theorizing in this, cuz hypotheses and theories are based on observed and researched facts! =))

Anyway, Yea, I think the forum is a good IDEA, but I think that the level of moderation would really be too much ... And even then, the moderators would have to continually be doing their own research too, in order to be able to filter out what could be considered "incorrect" (for lack of a better word) replies... I think that would create too many problems in itself... because all subsequent posts would be subject to the moderators' viewpoint... and who's to say who's more qualified than others? I guess I see it turning into abit of a mess. But I still think the concept would be really interesting.

=)
Kate

[katev17]

PS - It's just one forum he was proposing, not the whole site! =P I don't see what's wrong with having one forum dedicated to facts... ??? You wouldn't lose ANY characters or opinions, I can assure you that =P

But I still don't think it'd work... I'm just confused as to why one forum of 'facts' would really make that much of a difference on the entire make-up of the site?? :confused:

[Linds]

Originally posted by Jayson
It sure would make it easier to weed through all af the misinformation and persoanal opinions and get to actual facts.

Originally posted by katev17
PS - It's just one forum he was proposing, not the whole site! =P I don't see what's wrong with having one forum dedicated to facts... ???

I agree that a single forum based soley on factual/scientific information would be a good idea. We wouldn't lose the rest of the site and the multitude of opinions on it. It would be more of a research-based forum, just a 'specialty' forum. However it really isn't at all feasible at this time. As Matt already stated, there are already a lot of necessary things to be done to this site (which due to circumstance, already aren't able to be accomplished), to worry about adding anything else to the list.

[SCReptiles]

Well when you call others opinions "Babble such as this" as you so often seem to feel, regardless of who they came from, if they are right or not, etc, then you yourself would also need a high moderation level.

I only refer to others opinions as babble when they are completely fact less or not germane to the point. Peer opinions would be welcome in the forum that I envision, they would just need to be factually based. For instance the example I gave, should the other guy post “I reject the measurement because………”and he states a fact, that is what peer review calls for, but saying “I reject the measurement because I would lie if it were me that measured it” is babble. It has no factual basis. As for being boring, yes, I agree that if you are looking to be entertained, the peer review forum would not be for you. But if you are looking for factual research, then it would be much more beneficial then anything currently offered.

[adamofsound]

I dont think this is the place for intellectual property to be posted for all to see. there is already enough trouble with academic miscoduct in Universities where this sort of thing is closely regulated and there are severe consequences for plagiarism in all its forms. There is more to plagiarism than copying directly from someone elses work. I think it would be very hard to convince anyone familiar with the academic process and the presentation of new information to post results on a site for hobbyists.
I see plagiarism here frequently (although I am sure it is not intentional), and I think it would be quite difficult to locate moderators qualified to do the kind of screening we would need to establish credibility as a benign and objective place to discuss research.
we should keep this site a grassroots effort of hobbyists helping hobbyists. If a new herper decides to ask a question, and in return gets a correct answer free of criticism, that in itself is advancing hobby, becasue that person will feel comfortable asking another question, thereby inproving the quality of life of the herps in their care.

but that is just my personal opinion,

Adam

[BoidKeeper]

I just don't see it happening..
Why not?
There are too many other things that we have to get accomplished on the site right now and unfortunatly, adding a new forum just isn't one of them...
Like what?
Cheers,
Trevor

[Matt_K]

Trevor, You were a MOD, you were also the MOD who mentioned this type of forum and you KNOW why we decided against it.. You also know some of the other issue's that need to be ironed out before we can add another forum to the site... So why try and bring it up in public?????

-Matt

[SCReptiles]

Adam, no one will be posted cures for cancer for peer review here, but wouldn’t you like a forum where you could post conclusions you have drawn on research and have those conclusions discussed by peers based only on known fact and other research rather then “I think you are wrong, just cause I think you are wrong?” What you say about asking questions and getting correct answers sounds good, but that is not what you are getting in practice. Simply go to the giant python forum and ask about getting a burm. Watch how many replies you get from other hobbyist using “20 foot snake.” Anyone who has been in this for a while or has done true research knows that most of the CB burms of today are not breaking 14 feet, many will not even break 12, but yet 20 foot averages will be discussed as fact. Wouldn’t it be nice to have one forum where rebuttals to your research would have to state the facts they base their opinions on? The rest of the forum would remain as it. Hell, I like it the way it is, I have posted like 1400 times…I would just like a venue here that would allow actual researchers to have discourse among themselves, safe from the highly opinionated yet low factual research posters who follow threads posting pure babble.

[BoidKeeper]

I haven't been a mod for almost two months, things change. The type of forum I had in mind was not like this at all. What I thought would be a good idea would be to have an ask the expert forum. Not that there are very many left around these days. Maybe if they had been given a forum to answer questions with out having to deffend themselves against attacks from newbies we'd still have more of them around.
What's wrong with bringing things up that the admin/mod team is trying to accomplish when it is the members that will be affected by these accomplishments? I think it's only right that the members know what the team is trying to accomplish for them. After all the site is here for the members and not the other way arround. Maybe they might be able to offer some of their thoughts on the things being thought of.
Cheers,
Trevor

[SCReptiles]

Trevor, You were a MOD, you were also the MOD who mentioned this type of forum and you KNOW why we decided against it.. You also know some of the other issue's that need to be ironed out before we can add another forum to the site... So why try and bring it up in public?????

Because the public is the driving force of this site. Why keep us in the dark?

[BoidKeeper]

My whole point Chuck is that the site is here for the members and not the other way around. We can't even make the argument anymore that we make donations so we should get a say because these days if I'm correct you can't purchase photo space or make a donation.
Cheers,
Trevor

[SCReptiles]

Trevor also brings to light another point I thought of when I was organizing my thoughts on this, but didn’t post. A peer review forum is a lure for higher end researchers to this site. I think ssnakess is the best forum site on the market right now, but if its allowed to become complacent, people will lose interested, and it will stop growing. I want to see it continue to advance.

[Matt_K]

Trevor, I'd very interested to know what 'Expert's' have left the site.. I understand that a few members have 'left' the site, I was even told name's of these members that don't come here anymore. You know the funny thing about all those people.. They still post here on a daily basis..

Granted, people have decreased the amount of time they spend on the site, and that's understandable, it's also understandable that people get frustrated answering the same questions over and over again, and that they get annoyed with people's 'babble' as it's been put.. My question is this.. Should we make 10 'Expert's' happy, or should we work on making 100 members happy???

The site is a place for everyone to use at their leisure, whether they have 1 reptile or 100 reptiles.. People are going to come here and ask questions no matter what, if you have the answer, help them, but don't get upset when they do ask a question just beacause you've answered it 200 times...

As for the other issues we have to iron out.. Im sure you've noticed that the reply feature still isn't working in the classifieds section, we NEED to get that working, as well as some other bugs that aren't related to classifieds but just the site in general.. We're not leaving the members in the dark, instead we're trying to get these bugs weeded out before it becomes a problem for the members..

Chuck, as I stated, your idea is a good one, but will it happen? I'm not sure, why don't YOU try and contact The Admin with your idea... Afterall, they're the only one's who can get it off the ground..

-Matt

[SCReptiles]

I thought I was. Don't the admin read these posts?

[BoidKeeper]

They do when they can Chuck but just to be sure it's best to shoot of an email directly to them.
For what ever reason Matt we've lost a lot members since the begining.
Cheers,
Trevor

[Jayson]

What is good about chucks Idea is that when you post a Question, You will able to get a proper and educated answer from someone who is experienced/Educated.
As a long term member of this site I know who to accept an answer from, But when a new member, who may be new to the whole hobbie asks a qestion, they will get many different answers and some of them will be wrong.

[Linds]

Originally posted by SCReptiles
I thought I was. Don't the admin read these posts?

If you run a quick search through this forum, you will find many posts on the topic. Admin is generally unavailable for the most part these days, so basically if it is beyond our abilities as moderators, it is (temporarily?) suspended. You can fire them off an email, but if you do not get a response, do not take it personally, and it won't resolve anything to post about it here (as it has been done quite a bit already).

Originally posted by SCReptiles
Because the public is the driving force of this site. Why keep us in the dark?

People seem to think that we are keeping them in the dark, but we don't know any secrets either. Also, while the public is the driving force of most things, doesn't mean the behind-the-scenes stuff needs to be displayed everywhere. We aren't keeping secerts, but the team does need a private place to discuss strategies, ideas, etc. It simply would cause a lot of unecessary chaos to bring it all to the frontline, and counter the effort to keep things running smoothly ;)

[SCReptiles]

What is good about chucks Idea is that when you post a Question, You will able to get a proper and educated answer from someone who is experienced/Educated.

If we had a peer review forum, people wouldn’t be able to just come in and ask general questions. That would be an “ask the experts forum” like Trevor was talking about…which is also a great idea by the way. In the forum I am speaking of, threads would only be started by researchers who have completed some research and put the conclusions together in a post. Peers would then, accept the conclusions and include research they have done, some other facts not mentioned…etc, or people may ask questions about the research…or peers may try to discredit your conclusions, but to do so, they would have to offer up facts or opposing research they have done. You wouldn’t have the average Joe just popping in and saying the conclusion is false, they would be required to back up their opinions, or they would be disallowed.

[CamHanna]

I like the idea of a peer review forum, not only because it would draw 'experts' to the site and allow them to discuss their research, but because it would bring viable academic material to users such myself who are outside herpetological circles. I (and I'm sure many others) am not subscribed to any journals and have difficulty finding about current research. I would appreciate a forum (similar to that of kingsnake) where I could sit in on discussion of academic material. Also, it is often much easier for me to sit down and make sense of a 25 page paper after seeing a KS style debate on the subject.

It seems that sSNAKESs discussion is somewhat shallow at times. Most of the questions asked here could be answered by a care sheet. Consequently, most of the posts are no more educational then a care sheet. I would be interested in bringing more academic relevance to sSNAKESs.

If this is not feasible then I understand. I also understand that there are other things that need to be done, but I think that an academic forum should be a priority.

Cam

[SCReptiles]

Thanks Cam, I do believe this is the first time a Canadian supported anything I wanted to do. =)

[Slannesh]

I think it's a great idea too, but also understand the difficulties with the 'behind the scenes' stuff as well. I run a couple of small forums so I definately understand the need for moderators to have an area to discuss things outside the view of the general userbase.

If it would help at all i'd volunteer to help with this project in any way that the mods might need.

[Linds]

Originally posted by SCReptiles
Thanks Cam, I do believe this is the first time a Canadian supported anything I wanted to do. =)

LOL Chuck so I suppose half the opinons before that don't count? :rolleyes:

[Shad0w]

IM with SCReptiles

Personally.. I would love to see a peer review forum so long as its kept professional, it would do nothing but add clout to what we do... I mean its common in all other research forums....

Okay.. so instead of calling it peer review... Lets call it a Request for Comment forum (RFC) :)

[Kimo]

I would LOVE to see a forum on ssnakess that is based purely on FACTS, unlike...well every other forum on this site.

I've been a member now for over a year i think, and i visit this site 5-8 times daily, yet if you notice i have a meager post count.
I don't post anymore because the site has fallen from grace, it really has, its nothing more than a society of self proclaimed experts, who think because they have over 100 snakes sitting in tupperware bins one on top of eachother, they're speacial (not to say they're not, but this is not how "expertise" should be measured) and they all offer nothing more than opinions, or information off of someone elses care sheets. But back to the begining of my post, a forum like this would peek my intrest, bring relevant information back to the community, and help us all in the end!

wouldn't it?

Josh

P.S. i would love to devote my time, and efforts to seeing somthing like this come about.

***Edited for typo***

[SCReptiles]

Linds, I like you…..so I try not to consider you Canadian. Ha ha =)

[HeatherRose]

Linds, I like you…..so I try not to consider you Canadian. Ha ha =)

Pfffffffft.

I think it's a cool idea, and I hope that one day it'll get off the ground when all that needs to be done with the site is finished, as there is much we need fixed up at the moment. I'd love to see that kind of educational content come to SsnakesS.com :)

[Youkai]

Originally posted by SCReptiles
Linds, I like you…..so I try not to consider you Canadian. Ha ha =)

Wow, you must dislike most of the members of this site...

...and yet you keep coming back! ;p

[Gary D.]

Chuck It's not that nobody up here agrees with you. It's just... well look at the political landscape, it's just we're suspicious of any American in the South Eastern US having a good idea. J/K ha ha ;)

For what it's worth I think it's a good idea and would be nice to see too, but I don't see it actually working on this site all thing considered. IMO the most plauseable on-line meduim for this idea is a newsgroup.

Gary D.