Overweight captives

[marisa]

I was browsing some field herping forums on the internet today and saw some great photos of corns people are catching or have caught earlier in the year.

It made me kind of sad to see all these beautiful wild corns because I realized looking at the photos that compared to ANY of these wild caughts, my current corns and all the corns I have ever had, are quite obese.

In fact compared to the wild ones, every adult I see posted on forums would almost seem obese. Obviously this is not the wild and captive animals lead an easier life which allows them to be healthier.

But these corns were long, and VERY slim especially in the later half of their bodies compared to captives.

I kind of get the feeling I am doing something wrong when I compare my captives to these healthy, slim wild caughts.

Marisa

[Shad0w]

Yea yer right Marisa...

Most are obese...

I have a feeling most of our animals dont get enough exercise and are given too much food

[Bartman]

I think it’s because some people’s collections are so big that no one can really take each one out and give them the exercise they need. Some live in large tanks so they are able to get exercise, but what about the ones kept in Rubbermaid’s. I guess that’s the one down side of Rubbermaid’s.

[marisa]

I would think that myself except we have only two corns. One is extremely "friendly" and gets out for a lot of exercise. Still compared to wild corns, he looks disgusting.

I think it IS about tank size and exercise but even more still the prey items we give them. I move my own babies up to fuzzies within half a dozen meals after birth.....my adults are eating rats! although I only feed the male twice per month.

I am probably going to stop the rats and simply feed one average sized mouse every two weeks and see how it goes.

Marisa

[Simon]

Yes I do agree with the obsesity of corn snakes in captivity.

That's why we only feed adults every 14 days.
Even if at 14 days, they're still getting a lot more food than they would in the wild. Plus in the wild, they'll have to go find their food. Food doesn't just drop from the sky.

Taking them out for excersise is good, taking them for a short swim is good, and even a big enclosure is good.

I personally think that the main reason why our cb snakes gets egg bound once in a while (we year this every year) is because that our snakes are not getting the right amount of excerise that they should be getting and their muscle tones are just not good enough to push out the eggs. Thus making snakes egg bound. I have never heard of any wild corns having egg bound problems (there might be, just that I haven't heard of it)

I would feed a bit more to females since they're the ones producing eggs and putting energy into egg laying, but males....what do they do? Basically nothing....just chase the females around, breed, and that's it. So that is why males doesn't get fed nearly as much as females.

I feed my adult males every 14 days on 1 adult mice, females get fed ever 14 days on 2 adult mice.

After egg laying, females get a rat fuzzy or adult mice to start off. Just to get some energy back. Once it keeps it down, I feed it a nice medium rat to pump up the energy. I also only breed once a year, I don't do second clutches on purpose, just that if they do lay. yeah! if not, oh well, lets get ready for next year.

We can't really compare to wild corns as they have a lot more floor space to move around, and they go find their food. Where as in captivity, they have limited floor space (no matter how big your enclosure is) and we bring them food.

Plus what we feed them affects the amount of 'fat' they take in. In the wild, they taking frogs, mice, birds. A balanced diet. In captivity, we just feed them rats/mice. This diet if fattening.

Can't really compare captive with wild snakes.

But definately something to look for in corn's obesity

[marisa]

Yeah you definitly cannot compare captives with wild snakes. For sure.

It just seems corns are one of the species that seems to have the biggest problem with obesity. You don't often see an obese Ball python, or Kingsnake. It seems to be a majority of fat cornsnakes above other species.

I think that means something is missing. Bigger enclosures, smaller prey, exercise...I am not sure...but it seems this species is one of the "Fattest" kept in captivity.

Marisa

[Simon]

Yes true again.

But yet again if you think about it
balls don't really run around to find food.
They more or less sit there (or around that area) and wait for good to come.

I think that the absorption level for corns is a lot higher.
It takes around 2 days for corns to digest food and around the 3rd day to start pooping. For ball pythons, they poop less. They also eat less (compared to most corns, in most occations)

Plus.....
I think that there are a lot more 'samples' of corns than ball pythons. So the 'sample' ratio might affect on what we're seeing too~~

[Simon]

Oh I am not in any trying to argue with you that 'corns aren't fat'
but I am just trying to state more examples and more ways of viewing why the 'corns are fatter'

[marisa]

Yeah for sure Simon. I totally get what you are saying.

I just find the whole trend to be somewhat troubling as a whole. It would be nice to house a corn in a HUGE enclosure and see what happens on the average diet we herpers feed our "rubbermaid" corns.

Marisa

[Simon]

Originally posted by marisa
I just find the whole trend to be somewhat troubling as a whole. It would be nice to house a corn in a HUGE enclosure and see what happens on the average diet we herpers feed our "rubbermaid" corns.

Marisa

Oh most definately!!
In fact another reason why I have decided to leave Canada is that I too feel that I am not providing the best care for my corns (yes I am feeding them, keeping them nice and healthy. But not 100% the best)

They're all in rubbermaid.
I like the idea of having them in a huge enclosure and happy browsing around.

So I totally agree with you that some of our corns are too 'fat'

[Scales Zoo]

Excercise is definitely one reason. And as Simon mentioned, lack of excercise can lead to egg binding.

I'm not sure about corn snakes specifically, but Bullsnakes and Rattlesnakes only breed every 2 or 3 years in the wild, and usually the first time is age 4 or 5. They also only get to eat about 6 months of each year.

Most people, including me, over feed our captive snakes - as compared to their wild counterparts. But this lets them breed yearly, as in the wild, they do not breed yearly - except when there an abundant supply of food.

Some people only breed their corns every 2 years, some people breed them twice a year. If you don't breed your corns, don't feed them as much as the people who breed them twice a year - or they will become obese, and obesety can kill snakes.

I've also always thought that the odd 1 month fast, was good for snakes. Lets them use up some of their fat reserves, and keeps their organs from getting really fatty, which is what usually causes the death.

Ryan

[Scales Zoo]

And I agree Simon, Balls definitely don't run around to find their food, they have no legs :)

Ryan

[Removed_2815]

Did you see these pics of a snake that some lady brought to the expo? It's disgusting!
http://home.cogeco.ca/~rbolton1/Folder/Gross%20Corn%203.JPG
http://home.cogeco.ca/~rbolton1/Folder/Gross%20Corn%205.JPG

[Scales Zoo]

My mother recently got 2 adult cornsnakes, and they have that same back end thick bulgy look in the picture you posted.

At first, I was concerned - because I couldn't imagine a snake that obese, and thought it might be something else. They are now on diets, and are getting excercise, and seem to be loosing some of the flab - but yes, very disgusting.

Ryan

[Stockwell]

Yup all true stuff... My snakes aren't fat,not these days, but I don't have a regular feeding schedule any more... I feed them by how their body weight looks, and its pretty random and doesn't go by the calendar like it once did. In the 80's I had a ton of problems with overfed charges, and I had fertility problems as well as lots of retained eggs. Cal Kings ,Greybands , an assortment of ratsnakes, you name it, they can all become obese and develope fat lumps which are near impossible to get rid of.
One little test is hanging them by the back end, near the cloaca.
If they swing in the breeze like a wet noodle, and can't pull themselves back up to your hand, they are likely obese.

Now that I'm feeding less, I have fewer problems and it's worth mentioning that I also shut colubrids down for 3-4 months every year... Most "pet keepers" never brumate snakes, so along with being fed are regular weekly intervals, they also eat 12 months of the year which is not normal.
I find in general herpers are far too worried about snakes starving when the exact opposite is true.
An extreme example is a case where I once accidentally left a greybanded king in hibernation for an entire year.. I missed pulling it out in the spring and found it still in it's container in the late fall(I had alot of them)... One full season with no food or water, stuffed in a rubbermaid box.. I should also point out that hibernation room, has no cooling so the room reaches up into the 90's in the summer.
That snake drank for about 20 minutes, and was no longer obese, and survived just fine for any entire year without any food or water.(but don't try this at home)
The year after, it reproduced.

[Wizwise2000]

I also noticed this in the last month or two. I feed them every week, my balls get fed every 4 days, the corns every 7. I recently noticed with my male Amel, he has gotten much girthier. So he's on a temporary diet:)

I've worried about obesity with my snakes mainly because I've had no idea if I could tell if they were obese, in me it's easy to tell, I look in the mirror:)

I agree with Ryan, I believe it's good to give them a short fasting period to allow them to burn off some extra fat.

Shane

[Simon]

Originally posted by Scales Zoo
And I agree Simon, Balls definitely don't run around to find their food, they have no legs :)

Ryan

LOL!!

Good one~

Well at least you know what I mean~~
hahahahaahahah

[Jeff_Favelle]

Also, less parasites in captivity. Parasites CONSUME a lot.

[damzookeeper]

I know all too well about obesety! Some of you might remember this girl. She is presently on a diet.

http://www.reptilerascals.com/corntail2004-08-16%20010.jpg

I bought her for breeding but she will not be bred until her weight comes down. If the buldge doesn't go away then she wont be bred, I wont risk egg binding too.

edit: forgot to mention. When hubby is away she comes out to get some exercise. It's kind of funny to watch her try to move on the hard wood floor. It's rather slippery for her. lol.
http://www.reptilerascals.com/corn2004-09-01%20004.jpg

[Katt]

Finally this problem is addressed!

Yes, yes, our snakes are way overweight!!!

Those gorgeous wild snakes all have a girthy, but healthy look to them.

I feed pretty much randomly, not only to limit their intake, but also b/c I work full time and frankly just too tired to feed on schedule, so it varies between 1 - 2 weeks for babies and 1 to a month for adults.

I have a lot of snakes admittedly, but I do take them out to play and b/c I want them tame.

I'm also slowly upgrading my racks from the 7 gal to 11 gal long size for all my small - med colubrids. Anything larger than that (NA. rats, beauties) gets at least a 4 x 2 cage.

[mudflats]

Balls dont except every meal usually and fats on there own therefore can keep the wieghtdown but i have never seen a corn refuse a meal. We all know that being obese kills, in humans and every other life on this planet. Sure haveing captive animals is great experience fun and educational and to be around what we all love. But if we love them so much we need to all try harder to keep the wieght down so we can spend a longer period with these animals. None of my snakes are "obese" now, but they where about a year ago.Glad someone addresed this.

[Ontario_herper]

I was shot down by several forum members a while back for "starving" my ball pythons. I only feed them about once a month. I really don't keep track... as Roy said I often feed them as frequently as they look like they need to be fed.

BTW those balls that I was starving had no problems breeding this past year.

I think many people have a habit of over-feeding. The vast majority of snakes out there do not need to be fed every week... not even every other week, no matter what care sheets out there say.

I'm also not sure about this whole idea of exercising snakes. Do you guys not feel that this causes unnecessary stress on your snakes? Being as instinctive as they are I don't believe that snakes have the ability to decipher between exercise and some huge animal taking them out of their cage to do god knows what to them. I’m not a believer in taking snakes out of their cages unless they need to be taken out (cage cleaning etc…). But maybe you guys can make me see otherwise?

[Scales Zoo]

I'm glad to finally have an open discussion about this kind of thing.

I do know of underfed snakes in friends collections, that most people would be shocked about. Many of them are also 20 years old, after years of "underfeeding" - which is food for thought, no pun intended.

I've bought snakes that have been on a "maintenance diet".

Some of the growth rate these snakes can pull off when given a period of regular or heavy feeding is amazing. Sometimes I find that a fast, followed up by lots of nutritious larger prey, can put on more growth than regular feedings of regular sized prey. I don't think many people have actually studied comparitive growth rates, but I for one would be interested in compiled data.

Jeff's mention of parasites in the wild is also a very good point that wasn't mentoned. Wild snakes are much different than captive snakes for so many reasons - and this is a big one.

I've mostly always errored on the side of caution, and underfed our snakes. As many people have seen at various shows, none of our show snakes are overly skinny, as some show snakes are. We take pride in having healthy, long lived stock.

Many of our snakes only breed every 2 years as well, but I hope to keep them for 20 years or more, because I am attatched to them, and like them individually. Longevity happens to be a goal of mine. If I want to get a female colubird to "breeding weight", I can do it in 3 months, with a freezer full of food and a good poop shovel.

All that said, I've also experimented with various methiods of powerfeeding. Usually i've done it for young boas and ball pythons, and also with Indigos and some bulls in the past. I think that the renewed (and seasonal) regular supply of food might help trigger breeding, for some snakes, as well as monitors.

Some snakes can handle lots of food, without a lot of adverse effects, and ball pythons seem to be one of them. Funny enough, they are also the one snake than can handle very little food. It is not a wonder there has been a lot of varied opinion on that species. 2 year old females can produce a lot of eggs, and seem to be able to do it for the long run, when constantly fed. I, personally, don't beleive this is typical of boas, or many other pythons however. Infact, I think overfeeding is bad (in the long run) for Diamond pythons, and quite a few other snakes - but that is a whole other long topic too.

From my experience, certain snakes, like Indigos, Bullsnakes, Tiger rats, Taiwans, Pinesnakes, blackheads and diamonds, benefit from a lot of excercise (and in some cases fresh air and real sunshine) Given the room, and proper temperature gradient, some of these snakes can handle meals every 5 days if I feel like it. If they go 3 weeks without any food, I don't worry too much - it may extend their life in the long run. I also know of many 20 year snakes that have never had a temperature gradient, again, another topic.

Our diamonds that are over 2 years old, only eat 8 times a year! I hope when they are 5, that they will produce nice large fertile clutches, every 2 years or so, for a long, long time.

I also tend to go mostly by gut feelings (which has been working), but I may be very wrong - so keep that in mind.

Ryan

[Tim_Cranwill]

Great post, guys and gals! :)

I don't really have much to add other than the fact that captivity is a VERY different situation than living in the wild. Like most of you have pointed out. Temperatures, availability of food, quality and type of food, stress, parasites, exercise, injuries and disease all play a factor when looking at wild animals weight and over-all physique. In captivity, our snakes have the benefit of either not having to deal with those issues or having them mostly solved/controlled <b>for</b> them by <b>US</b>.

I think with a species like corns, it is very easy to "abuse" their willingness to feed and even mistake it as hunger (if they even feel such a thing). The fact that many of these species have evolved to capitalize on every feeding opportunity they get in the wild is a survival instinct can quickly turn into a negative attribute in captivity. I have seen hatchling corns eating adult mice by Christmas. They are made to <b>grow</b> when they are young but later in life, when their growth rate slows down, the extra calories have to go somewhere… they turn to FAT.

Accelerated feeding schedules (one could even call it “power feeding”) work well for some species, ok for others and are a recipe for disaster for certain ones. A prolonged accelerated schedule year-round can do nothing but harm in the long run. A good keeper must be able to look at a particular snake’s activity level for the year (maturing, breeding, egg-laying and etc) and make a “feeding schedule” based on that. The schedule doesn’t need to be “every other Wednesday” or anything as strict as that. It can be more of “about 2 meals a month for my breeder male colubrids" and etc. I feel that is an important aspect of keeping AND breeding.

Anyway, just a few ideas and thoughts off the top of my head. Feel free to question and critique them. :D :p

[Scales Zoo]

Oh, and Dave, about the excercise.

Big cages are awesome for excercise. I have lots of 3' x 6' cages for colubrids, so I am lucky that way. Lacking that, taking them out and letting them crawl around is also good, in most cases.

Most of our snakes, don't seem to get very stressed with some handling. We do have exceptions to the rule, and don't handle those ones very often.

I prefer not to handle many of our snakes if I can help it, as it is some kind of stress to them no doubt. Stress can cause disease, inhibit breeding, stop feeding, and lead to many other bad things.

But, if the snake is used to handling, and not stressed by it - they still seem to be able to breed as well as their counterparts that are rarely handled (from what I have seen here). A lot of past litters and clutches, came from snakes that we take out to educational displays. We always try to kee them nice and warm when out, don't over use them, and don't let them be handled too much. My thoughts are, if they breed succesfully - they must be happy snakes. Happy snakes is the #1 goal here, always has been, always will be.

The big retics, come out of their "largish" enclosures at least once a month, sometimes once a week - for a bit of excercise. I let them roam the zoo (with all doors locked, 2 people present, etc..) They seem to enjoy it, and our big Tiger retic seems to look forward to it, every 2 weeks. Did I say "enjoy"?

Yes, I said they seem to enjoy and look forward to it, I know - they are not supposed to learn, or enjoy things. Dogs were also thought not to process thought up till 15 years ago.

Letting a snake out of the cage to climb and excersize and explore, is one of my favorite things to do with the snakes. Deep down I know it is good for them in the long run (most of them, that is).

Ryan

[BOAS_N_PYTHONS]

EVERYONE:

I agree with Ryan, Stockwell and Jeff on this thread.

Its not only corn snakes its all reptiles in some state.

Animals in captivity just get a better life overall, but in the end what we consider better can be a con to them as well. Wild animals in the wild go through hardship with the daily struggle to live another day. Environment gives them all the need but also puts them through the worst with the good. Disease/parasites take there toll on them as well. And food is not always available on a schedule as in captivity and let alone the quantity and quality as well. Also be restricted to the cage dimensions and a few handling sessions does not give enough exercise.

In the end animals in captivity do tend to get obese to some degree, and people house these animals for many reasons. If it is breeding, many see feedings as fast growth for the breeding season and financial return. If its some scheduled diet just because we feel they require, need or must eat then this in turn becomes something different than the wild would offer.

Obesity discussion in some way relates to Power Feeding, not 100% same topic but can be related. That topic alone can be taken apart on so many levels that I won' t get into it because it always becomes a hot topic.

Our collection is on a form of scheduled diet depending on the species. But that schedule is always off set.

Example:

A snake that normally would eat a large rat every week....is on this schedule.

Week 01: Monday 9:00 pm feed 1 medium rat.
Week 02: Monday 3:00 pm feed 1 small rat.
Week 03: no feed
Week 04: Monday 6:00 pm feed 1 large rat.
Week 05: no feed
Week 06: Monday 9:00 pm feed 1 medium rat.
Week 07: Monday 3:00 pm feed 1 large rat.
Week 08: no feed
Week 09: no feed
Week 10: repeat schedule from week 1.

This may sound insane ;) but our collection grows steady, matures at a decent rate and holds solid muscle mass over looking and feeling obese like. We are no experts in the field but have raised everything from fish - parrots - boids - dogs, and no animal shows signs of being obese and struggling through life. We feel if the snakes are nice and solid, have great muscle strenght and tone, look alert, look well nurished, and carry vibrant color and healthy skin, deficate/urinate on schedule without complications and provide good clean sheds that this schedule works. Yes we would love to feed on a more financial schedule because of breeding, but the pro/cons due to obesity and trying to breed in the end just aren' t worth it to us and the animals we care for. We try and use a natural schedule for the snakes, because they do starve in the wild and at times pig out as well.

LOL......wondering if I' m on topic still.

But like I said before I agree with the names listed above and thought to add my view added as well.

Just my 2 cents.

Cya...

Tony

[Jeff_Favelle]

Ball Pythons are a VERY different breed of snake than the corns that were initially discussed. Balls seem to be pulse feeders and doing so in captivity is no wronger than them doing it in the wild.

But yeah, lots of GTP's, Emmies, colubrids, Leos, etc etc are fed either improper diets or fed too much without adequate activity. But Ball Pythons are a whole other can of worms.

[Cookie]

Wow! mines about 4 feet same back end look ... maybe it's the fact in the wild they don't eat as well because it's not handed to them on a silver platter... lol I'm going to cut down to 1 adult mouse a week and build a bigger enclosure with some branches etc for exercise. I thought the look was normal..... MY BAD

[BoidKeeper]

That's why we only feed adults every 14 days.
Same here. My adults that aren't being conditioned for breeding are only fed every 14 days. Rosy boa, male corn, adult male ball that I'm not breeding. My male ETB is on a 4 week schedual and my male ATB is on a 3 week schedual. Next year I'll be slowing my male boas down too. I'm looking forward to it too because for the last 3 years it seems all I've been doing is raising snakes up and feeding as much as twice a week.
Cheers,
Trevor

[Simon]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
Ball Pythons are a VERY different breed of snake than the corns that were initially discussed. Balls seem to be pulse feeders and doing so in captivity is no wronger than them doing it in the wild.

But yeah, lots of GTP's, Emmies, colubrids, Leos, etc etc are fed either improper diets or fed too much without adequate activity. But Ball Pythons are a whole other can of worms.

That is exactly what I meant when I said that ball pythons were different and that they didn't 'RUN' around to get food like corns....LOL!!!

Great topic here~
I am glad that some people here admits that they have been feeding their snakes too much.

Admiting to error is the first step, and I would think that is one of the hardest step for anyone to take.

[rwg]

I'm going to play devil's advocate for a moment because...well...someone has to. The corns pictured in this thread are clearly overweight, but who's to say that the ones caught in the wild are at an ideal weight? In the wild, animals sometimes starve to death.

The agricultural revolution made it possible for humans to become obese. Before that we were hunter/gatherers, and had to work hard for bare subsistence. In spite of this potential for obesity, human population rose significantly as a result, and after an initial drop, life expectancy went up as well. Researchers seem to credit the increase in life expectancy with the abundance of food, and attribute the initial drop to the effects of urbanization (ie higher rates of disease transmission etc).

Also for humans at least, mortality rates are actually higher for people who are slightly to moderately underweight than for those who are slightly to moderately overweight. Renee Zelweiger (Hollywood calls that fat, but I dont) will probably outlive Calista Flockhart by a bit, statistically speaking.

Anyway, this is a great thread. Definately, we tend to over-feed our snakes, but if mine looked like wild-caught specimens, I'd up the feeding schedule. Personally I'm aiming for somewhere in the middle.

Roy

[vanderkm]

We have done our share of over-feeding - a big part of the fun of keeping snakes for me is watching them eat and seeing the changes that come with growth. As many times as I have seen a snake devour prey it still amazes me! (not that it justifies poor husbandry and overfeeding - just that it likely contributes to why we have done it).

We have also taken in several snakes through the local reptile society that have been emaciated and it feels very gratifiying to watch them thrive with regular feeding. I find it interesting to see Ryan's comments on seriously underweight snakes that thrive - I definitely see as many yearling and older corns being fed pinkies and, in my opinion, markedly undersized, as I do overweight individuals. Part of our desire to see our snakes well fed has been a response to seeing so many that have that 'lolly-pop' anorexic look with huge heads and skinny bodies from owners that cannot afford to, or don't know enough to, increase prey size. Certainly hasn't come from any real knowledge I have that this underfeeding was harmful to the snake.

Do we overfeed our colubrids relative to what is available in the wild? -- without question we have and continue to do so, despite our efforts to do things that are best for them. I strive for the 'middle ground' - like the yardstick of body strength that Roy uses - how well can a snake suspended from its tail coil up and wrap around your arm.

We use relatively large cages (3-5 feet by 18 inches) and we feed when we see persistent hunting behaviour (disrupted bedding overnight) but rarely let it go more than a week of hunger with our guys when we should likely be depriving them for a month or more to help them stay fit and lean (really makes a mess of the cage the hungrier they are though!!).

Lots to consider from this thread - always a challenge to find the balance in the absence of much real data -

mary v.

[marisa]

"but who's to say that the ones caught in the wild are at an ideal weight"

Well their simply are none in the wild that are fat. Its not just skinny ones people catch. So in my mind that means they maybe were not meant to carry so much weight by nature.

And as for the increase in population, obesity in snakes leads to egg binding which would lower their population, where as for humans I can see abundance of food helping the population as a whole.

Anyways this is a great thread. My colubrids can definitly pull themselves back up when I hold their tails so that makes me feel better but I am still going to be watching the diet and possibly looking for larger caging.

Marisa

[crimsonking]

You know, it's kinda funny.... I have seen lots of rescues or wild caught that are now in captivity at some local parks. In each case here, they are housed in what we might consider very large enclosures. The smallest one I'm talking about here is maybe 3' x 4' x 4', with the largest a "walk in". Also in each case these are some of the biggest, longest, and heaviest corns I've seen. Two of them are pushing 6' I'm sure and built more like FL kings ( you should see THOSE!) Anyway, in this case, the large enclosure may have little to do with it.
:Mark