Mbayless and Crocdoc

[kap10cavy]

I hate to see you all leaving the "other" forum and hope you both stick around here so I can pick your brains and get you to post pics. How are the lacie eggs coming?
Just think about this. If you leave, you let the other people win.
As for Sam, maybe ya'll can get him to come here so I can make stupid comments and get him to post long replies. Hahaha
It's amazing how I can push his buttons without name calling from either of us.

Scott

[mbayless]

Hi Scott,

I am tired of the BS on KS, and its as simple as that...I am tired of the Orwellian semantics and dogma a few perpetrate on all and offer little 'real' new information to it except they saw it happen; when it is contended, those posts are deleted, not once, twice, thrice but countless of times - we see it everyday here in USA now, and with this sick dogma in the white-house, it will not stop for years to come...I want no part of it - there is no point in it -

If you feel compelled to fight the fight, by all means Please do so, but I will not partake in it anymore....that is the second time I have said that on KS, and as the saying goes: "First time shame on him; second time shame on me!" So I am bowing out of KS sh$t.... I always enjoyed this forum, cybersalvator and of course Varanus.nl where I requent regularly. Yeah, FaRt and axis powers may have spies or lurk there if he wishes, but (hopefully) he will keep his 'dogma' to KS and his own Bushit[e] forums. It is not about who is right or wrong, it is about the ability to have equal say in what one feels on a certain topic, and on KS that is not possible nor has it been for quite some time, but lately the 'moderators' have been busy deleting anti-FaRt posts/threads, so to 'Hella' with them all I say. I personally have no malice again the others, just the way in which it is handled one-sided...and as I said before, I am very tired of that crap.

I cannot speak for DK, but I visit this forum once a-day...and will continue to do so....and may be more inclined to post and reply more often than I have recently....

cheers Scott,
markb

[crocdoc]

Hey Scott,

I'll still be posting here, on cybersalvator.com and varanus.nl. Sam doesn't usually post here, but he's on the other two.

As far as the other forum goes, it's not a win/lose thing, but they should really label it a soapbox rather than a forum, as it leans heavily towards one point of view and has done since I first started posting there almost four years ago. In the end I don't care what everyone there thinks monitors do in the wild, most of them will go to their graves without ever visiting Australia, anyway. The science bashing gets a bit old, though.

The recent clutch of eggs was still looking good last time I looked, but that was before I moved the incubator into a cooler area in anticipation of some hot days this week (40C). Now that it is no longer in my loungeroom I check up on the eggs less frequently. If they last the first two weeks (which comes up this coming Monday), they'll probably go the distance. I certainly will not be checking up on them daily as I did with last season's clutches, for some of them went to 265 days: that's a lot of wear and tear on that poor incubator door, LOL!

[HeatherRose]

Hey guys,

I'm gonna have to ask you to keep the bashing and the language down to a dull roar...feel free to take anything you want into PM's though...

That way this thread won't have to be moved.

Thanks :D

[mbayless]

Sorry Rose/Moderator - I'll keep it to a low humm....

Thanx,
markb

[kap10cavy]

I am glad you guys are still where I can find you. As far as KS goes, I will still go. It does bother me that all sides can't be heard whether we agree with them or not. That's what a discussion is supposed to be. My views, your views, their veiws and the right views. Hahaha
Someone drag Sam in here so maybe we can have some more discussions.
Oh Mark, leave the politics out please. My lizards can't vote and might feel bad.

Later

[Matt_K]

hey kap10cavy, instead of being a smartas$, how about you read the site's TOS??? Maybe one of your lizards can read it to you??

The rules of this site are very straight forward, we don't ask for much from you guys, so really, there's no need to be rude about it when a moderator asks that you comply with these rules..

-Matt

[mbayless]

So now for an interesting topic: It is established in wild populations of V. griseus that male and female breeding, nest and go their merry way until the next breeding season whereby they find one another again, with the same two animals, greet one another and do the procreate dance again....now V. griseus is typically a agnostic species ready to bite the hand that feed them or anything else... so this two animals bond for breeding, but otherwise are extreme solitares in the deserts from Morroco to Syria and Lebanon and farther east into Iran, Iraq, where they are replaced by V.g.k. species. These studies were done principally by Alexey Tsellarius, an extremely gracious and kind fellow, and a damn good biologist. He identified his animals by tagging them with markers of paint on their dorsums and sometimes legs. I have numerous photos of this and all of his academic articles and letters as well to back up the afore-mentioned. He wanted to write this all up as a book in english but needs $2500 to do it published privately...anyone interested? Otherwise such fascinating information might be lost to 'science' and all interested parties.

Any comments? Is this pair bonding? Breeding behavior? Example of social bonding? All of the above? None of the above?

Cheers,
markb

[kap10cavy]

Now that is interesting. It's discussions like this that make me think.
Now for some questions. Are they reported to meet at the same area around the same time? Do they find each other from scent marking? I wonder what happens if a different but healthy male shows up when and where the bonded male is supposed to be?
Or what happens when one or the other is lost to predators, weather or health?

Scott

[mbayless]

Hi Scott,
Here is what I know about Alexey Tsellarius' field studies that can help answer your questions:


Now for some questions. Are they reported to meet at the same area around the same time? Do they find each other from scent marking?

They do meet in the same nesting sights, via scent/pheromones as chemical cues.

I wonder what happens if a different but healthy male shows up when and where the bonded male is supposed to be? Or what happens when one or the other is lost to predators, weather or health?

If two males approach a female that has bonded with said male, ritualized combat occurs, which is a five-phased step process of determining which males/females are stronger = fit = better genes etc ....same applies to females. Apparently they burrow in the same nest sights from the previous season. If the male and/or female dies before this "love story" resumes, the V. griseus finds a new mate. Cool huh.

mbayless

[crocdoc]

I don't doubt that males will mate with the same females each year in most varanid species, since there's only so far they are going to go to find a mate and they'll likely try the females whose home range overlaps theirs, first. Did the study on V griseus also include information on population density to determine whether these pairs were shunning all others or there simply weren't that many around? That would be an interesting parameter to investigate.

I also notice there is no mention of them spending the year together, so do they just meet during the breeding season?

[mbayless]

Hi DK,
they appear to only meet duringthe breeding season, and are solitary otherwise...where they go after mating/nesting is not known. Alexey has sadly had to go to other studies via funding in Russia, and will not be working with V. griseus in future he tells me. The population during mating season was higherthan normal as good breeding/nesting sites are rare. Of course all of this is based on how well they feed during the (brief) summer months principally on jerboa, which constitute a majority of their diet....there are so many other fascinating things about V. griseus that make one raise an eye-brow when compared to other Varanus species....

Why we did not make our decisions before this last weeks afore-mentioned dogma to leave KS behind is a mystery to me...but a good decision you think?
Cheers DK,
markb

[crocdoc]

Haha, so true, Mark.

The V griseus information is very interesting, but also fits in with what one would expect - given that there is a shortage of good nesting areas etc.

[mbayless]

yeah, and this may be a key to why some people think they are social, which if it is done only during breeding makes it insoluable idea. Heini Heidger was 'the' master of captive zoo ethology, and his outstanding books discuss such things as this written back in 1940's - 1970's.... and can be applied to varanids as easily as any other vertebrates...

If nesting sites is shortage, then population densities in these areas, as seen from Dinosauria to present day has not changed. Good thing hominids do not need nesting sites and can fornicate anywhere, from roof of office bkdg to city park, which I saw last week with amuzement and disgust.

Cheers DK,
markb

[kap10cavy]

From what I have read on V griseus , they seem like a good and fun monitor to study considering their wide range. The buggers seem to be everywhere. If I am not mistaken Mertens did some chasing too.
Now about social. What about the larger species that have a limited range like the komodo? From what I have seen and read, they are often found in groups. I do realize there is a pecking order (biggest is in charge).

Scott

[mbayless]

Well that is just it - bigger is better (in more ways than 1!), and bigger fellas get what they want/require. This goes for all Varanus species. Look at Walter Auffenberg's 1981 book on 'Social' = not a whole lot there really, just inter/intra-specific behaviors in hierarchy; as well as Jenny Daltry's study of V. salvator; Bivash Pandav's 18 month study on V. salvator in Bangladesh; Walter Auffenberg's studies on V. olivaceus (1994) and V. bengalensis (1995), the Lutz's books on Komodo's; Claudio Ciofi's studies on Komodo's, and all the Pianka papers, and the list goes on and on, dozens of studies become hundreds, and I have read them all, and have them all right here in my files....there is no clear cut evidence from the plethora of field studies, except 1, where it demonstrates Varanus are social; the 1 field study I find most fascinating is by Kai Philipps when he studied V. indicus, V. jobiensis, V. doreanus and V. salvadorii in PNG and found V. jobiensis nesting together in a tree hollow with V. salvadorii. I have 1 other eye-witness account of V. rudicollis living 10-20 meters up certain trees 20 km S. Kuala Lumpur where 1 V. rudicollis was seen on each tree, with adjacent trees having their own V. rudicollis among them as well - he would catch them and keep for a few months then return them back to this same grove ....other than those two accounts, I find no hard-core evidence of sociality in Varanidae....it does not mean it is not possible, it means from hundreds of collectors, explorers, zoologists, herpers, it has not been seen = what does that tell you?

In captive habitats, these animals have no choice but to behave in a constrained habitat, and as varanids do not usually kill one another in the wild, but run away, and save their gene pool/genetic diversity, why would they kill in closed box enclosures? They feel compelled to do so, as there is no where for the animal/adversary to go, so the larger animals would assume the lesser aggressor has not bowed to its challenges and must kill it = usually by crushing the head but decapitation has been seen, removing of limbs as well (my animals did that in 1980's) which are similar behaviors they have seen among the aquatic varanoids of the Tethy's Sea 75 million years ago among Mosasaurs, Aigilosaurs and Dolichosaurs. And quite alot has been written on Mosasauridae ethology is the last few years....

and do not forget Heloderma - they are not social but can be found in groups when nesting/mating ensues...

I am not saying it does not happen, but current information says no. It is not the job of a scientist to find it because somebody says it does - it is the person who says it does that should follow it up.... that is the fun of science - to add to the knowledge, not take away from it.

cheers,
markb

[Scales Zoo]

Monitors are my favorite reptiles, mostly because so little is really known about them. Different theories on such things are great.

I don't post much on any of the monitor forums, or this one, any longer because of "dogma" and such things.

I think it would be great for ssnakess to have the monitor forum that is void of all the problems seen in the "other ones"

Of all reptile fanatics, us monitor people seem to be the most extreme. Rather than pick sides, I like to try to learn from everyone who has something of value to teach.

There is a lot of really good information available from the members on this list, this post has been a good example of that.

I've read all the recent stuff on the "other forums" - and it ticks me off, cause all I want to do is learn, and share observations.

We owe it to the worlds varanids to have a place to discuss things, share opinions, and try to evolve the basis of what is known, what will be learned, and what will never be known.

I am not a moderator, so this sappy post is obviously from the heart.

What bugs me, is hypothesis (not even theories, by definition) being pushed as facts, by those who seem to feel they know it all. There is nothing wrong with hypothesis, when presented as such.

A lot of very knowledgable people, in Canada and through out the world, are not involved in any varanid discussion because of the tension. Think of what could be learned if we shared thoughts and observations like the cornsnake people do.

I'm ready to give this forum a shot, and I'll try to leave my personal differences aside, if everyone will.

Group Hug!

Ryan

[Cake]

Could the lack and or presence of social behaviour in V griseus, could also be somewhat explained based on the availibility and quality of food. If food sources are scattered and widespread, then individuals would be solitary simply because they decrease their direct competition for food by doing so. During the mating season they meet at high quality nesting sites, to procreate and then once copulation is complete they travel their own marry ways in search of their next meal.

By making this statement I make one large assumption and that is that all foraging grounds are equal in quality and availibilty.

Several individuals nesting in one condensed area may be a result of several combining factors. First off if high quality nesting sites are concentrated in one area, then this would lead to the obvious conclusion that there would be a high concentration of monitors in the the areas of high quality nest sites. The lack of conflict may be a result of a high likely hood of physical injury and posible death as a result. It may be in an individuals best interest to select a slightly less favourable nest site then to engage in combat and risk death, to obtain a slightly better nest site, if there is only a slight gain in reproductive output.

Also are the groups of monitors that nest together related? If so then kinship may also play a role.

[mbayless]

Hi Cake,
I do not know if the animals at these nesting places are related... but in northern Egypt on the Med. Sea coastline, 'pairs' of V. griseus have been seen hunting crocodile eggs, one approaches the moma croc head on and she chases it off, whereby the other does a civil war tactic of Jeb Stewart = flanks around the land-side of the island or offshore islet and preys on the eggs that way while the other V.griseus runs from her jaws; they take turns doing this so both get a meal.

V.niloticus also does this in pairs and threes. Question: are they related? Some say yes, others no. Now when you consider that baby V.griseus and V.niloticus hatch in termitarias and nests and stay there for a few days - imprinting on pheromonic level 'could' occur. The afore-mentioned is correct in observations - but this latter sentence on pheromone imprinting is my own suggestion...throughout their lives they would recognize 'family' by smell; one supporting captive observation to support this idea is: a friend of mine who has bred 5 consecutive years of V. albigularis/clutches has many babies from these offspring. These offspring will under NO circumstances breed with one another, but will freely do this with non-related animals. How do the V. albigularis know who is related? Pheromones. Have you ever smelled a V. albigularis or V. exanthematicus? They do smell different at different times of the year. So maybe this has some merit...it is NOT a theory (yet) as it is merely a question here: a theory is: asked, data collected (which some of is here), data compared and contrasted, and theory presented as conformed by the aforementioned 1-3. A theory is a idea supported by evidence; change the evidence and you change the theory - so add to this either way is good as it is add too, not taking away from this querry.

cheers,
markb

[kap10cavy]

I know what you are talking about with the smell. My albig smells like maple syrup.

Scott