euthanasia - once & for all

[augerdvm]

Have read many threads in ssnakess recently about freezing yor herps to euthanize.

Here is the link for the American Veterinary Medical Assoc (AVMA) and their stand on various HUMANE techniques for euthanasia.

FREEZING IS INHUMANE !!!!!!!!

Hope this sheds some light

Daren Auger DVM

link:

http://www.avma.org/resources/euthanasia.pdf

[BoidKeeper]

Thanks for sharing. I think every herper should read it.
Cheers,
Trevor

[timminsreptiles]

pretty interesting......Lucas

[coldblooded]

it's a no, no....

[snakehunter]

HMM not working for me (link) But I whole heartedly aggree thata freezer is NOT a humane way to go, I wish some one had told me this earlier when I didnt know what to do with my leftover pinks. NOW I know and there is NO WAY I would go back to my old way.

[Manitoban Herps]

At my 2 brothers and dad's work, (they work at a hog barn) they have 2 methods:

1.) Is to use a gun that shoots a bolt, doesn't always work on the first try so it's not the greatest.

2.) Dry ice, very good method for all animals.

[Brent Strande]

Formation of ice crystals on the skin and in tissues of an animal may cause pain or distress.

Is there any proof to back this claim or is it merely a hypothesis?

[JeffT]

pretty interesting read.

[coldblooded]

Actually, freezing pinkies (just pinkies) is better than using co2 because the pinkies are naturally quite resistant to asphyxiation...

Mike

[Brent Strande]

That I don't believe... they are a warm-blooded creature. Pinkies should NOT be frozen to death.

[Will]

Great link, and interesting read.

The method that seems to be prefered(at least on this board anyways), CO2, isn't explained very well. The article doesn't say anything about exposure times really. Unconsciousness occurs quickly, but "the exposure times for euthanization are prolonged".

Just for clarity, how long would you expose a Cornsnake for...? A BCI...? A Beardie...? A Burm...? They would likely all vary according to body size, metabolism, respiratory rates, etc.

Perhaps the good Doctor can clear this up...?

Cheers.

[coldblooded]

I read the pinkie freezing thing the other day and now I cannot find it... It did say that freezing worked well for pinkies, and only pinkies... but I found this just now and does make more sense...

taken from here:

http://vet.ucr.edu/Primer/Biomethodology/Euthanasia.htm

"Carbon Dioxide

Carbon dioxide inhalation can be suitable for all species, provided acceptable equipment is used. Practically, its use is limited to rodents and other mammals weighing less than about 500 grams. Compressed CO2 from cylinders is the only acceptable source. Dry ice is no longer permitted as a CO2 source.

...continued exposure to CO2 for 10-30 minutes after breathing has stopped (newborn of most species are more resistant than adults to CO2 and will require exposure times 2-3 times as long to assure death.) "

[Cookie]

First of all common sense tells me freezing anything to death is wrong! Pay the few bucks to have them put down professionaly. You atleast owe the little creature that much don't you think?....After all you took the responsibility to care for it, if it's a monitary issue then maybe you should not have any herps.

Second of all! Most of the puting down of the creatures was simply because "they got out" and the cat got it etc etc etc. That was'nt your herps fault! I have had herps for over 20 years and i have NEVER had an escape! before investing in a herp try having the escape proof enclosure built, bought, or ready! Here's another example i have over 4000 rubbermaids with mice in them i have care sheets for each bin i know when they ate how much they ate how many times there bins been clean a week given fresh water daily offspring counts dates of birth etc etc and i have yet!, to have an escape with over 20.000 mice in stock and about that figure in fuzzy hopper and pinky. when we kill our mice we use co2 and we don't kill pinky mice! think about the freezer deal sound sadistic to me seeing when you get hypothermia and live to tell the story it's always a painful one. co2 is known as the silent killer in homes among people well it works faster and there is no trauma. co2 setups are exspensive but like i said you wacked out 200.00 on a reptile or 6.00 on a anole they deserve the same respect ......like seriously we are talking 20.00 for a vet to do it!.... i would go that route as a few times i thought the reptile needed to be put down and been told the reptile can be saved ( reptiles brought to us in distress) all i can say is please give your herps that much as to have it done right

[mice_unlimited]

I 100% agree Cookie

[M_surinamensis]

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38563&highlight=euthanasia+freezing

My thoughts can be found here in detail. It's a good read (not just my part either). I'll post a couple of the less responsive bits but to get an idea of what I was responding to and why, it's worth the few minutes it might take to read the thread.

When euthanizing an animal... any animal... I choose the method which is most convenient for me. I never go out of my way to be curel of course, nor do I enojoy watching an animal suffer... so the most convenient method will always be legal and in some manner humane. However this does mean that when euthanizing rodents for use as feeders, I won't go to the effort of setting up a CO2 chamber... When euthanizing a fish or herp, I'm not going to pay a vet a few hundred bucks to put it down with a lethal injection and if the time ever comes when I have to euthanize a terrestrial invert, I will likely just step on it.

That being said however... Freezing is not a humane way of euthanizing *some* animals. Humans, in our conceit, tend to classify and categorize everything using our own terms, our own experiences and our own biology. It's why anthropomorphism is so rampant- the majority are truly unable to value something without forcing it into human terms. Freezing is supposedly a painless way for a human being to die... I have never tried it, so this is not firsthand experience but the brain apparantly shuts down physical sensation after a point and a sort of comatose sleep occurs prior to death. There is evidence which strongly suggests this is NOT the case in many other animals (including other mammals) and that consciousness will remain until death sets in... slowly, as the flesh progressively freezes and dies.

I truly love reptiles, amphibians, fish, inverts and even some other mammals- but I do not value them as highly as I value humans. If forced with a choice between the lives of long term pets that I have kept for decades and come to regard as being an intrinsic part of my life or an anonymous stranger, the human wins every time... I say this to explain that I do put a lesser importance on the potential for suffering. I also firmly believe that many animals do not HAVE the same potential for suffering that has been shown to exist in mammals and birds. A reptile has no concept of self awareness, no ability to conceptualize abstracts such as the future... Much of the suffering from a human standpoint comes from worried anticipation, we worry about shutting off the brain, the "self" rather than physical damage. While a reptile certainly has instincts for self preservation and CAN feel pain, evidence strongly suggests (The evidence i choose to believe anyway) that pain is merely used as an indicator of physical damage, which can sometimes trigger an instinctive response if there is a present and obvious cause but otherwise... Well, we're all aware that a herp will sit on a hot rock while it's flesh cauterizes and the burns even go so far as to penetrate the body cavity, which certainly seems to mean something about what the brain of a herp does or does not do with certain sensory information.

So... I have put animals in the freezer in the past as a way to euthanize them... I likely will again in the future if it's the most convenient of avaliable options even though it is never my first choice when presented with a range of choices. Frankly I preffer to break the neck or dislocate the spinal cord when given the option but there are some species where I simply do not know enough about the way the skeleton is structured to make this safe or easy. I know how to snap a rat's neck and the animal is dead before it has a chance to understand what's happening... I can't say the same about most lizards... Certainly enough force could easily be applied to a gecko to make it something of a moot point... Can the same be said for an adult tegu or monitor? Would pulling or twisting be more effective for a snake? Does angling the grip help or should it be a straight movement? If I screw it up and merely paralyze it, is it okay for me to put it into the freezer?

Another...

This is drifting back towards my argument made on page one so I think I'll chime in a bit once more...

As I said, I have frozen reptiles in the past and likely will again in the future should occassion arise when I feel it's appropriate. I do so because it's the quickest method for many which I am certain will cause death- as I said, I have no idea how to best go about disloacting the spinal column from the brain for most species and wouldn't care to attempt it in that the idea of euthanization is to end suffering or cull and it's not something I find myself doing frequently enough to find it worth practicing.

I also noted that evidence strongly suggests that consciousness remains during the freezing process up to a point for herps but that brings up a really big question... What exactly is consciousness? As Darin noted it can be very difficult to determine if a reptile is even ALIVE given certain standards at certain points (c'mon now, for all of you who have dealt with large numbers in a resale/import situation, how many of you have had to poke something to see if it was alive? I know I have and I'd like to think I've got a better grasp than most) but further it leads to questions about how we define pain.

This is going to be a lot of conjecture on my part, it's an opinion and a really poorly formed hypothesis and all my evidence is pretty circumstantial, if you want to debate it, please feel free but bear in mind that I'm not going to be married to the following statements and might just stop arguing because it no longer interests me to continue...

I submit that pain is merely sensory information, what any given organism DOES with pain is more important than the condition of pain existing. For organisms which can be said to be sentient (if not always very bright) and have self awareness, there is an emotion associated with the physical sensation, that is SELF which is being damaged, it's frightening, it raises doubt about the future it's a major issue... For organisms which are not self aware, it's pure sensory imput with no more meaning than visual stimulus or scent. It *might* trigger a behavioral response if a cause is immediate and the survival instincts have developed one. Meaning if a response to the sensory information was appropriate and animals which developed it ended up forming a larger part of the breeding population, in example, something bites a reptile, escape is a successful response, animals which escaped survived, the instinctive response grew stronger and more dominant within the population. For situations outside such immediate sensory information or where no instinctive response could be developed, the pain is meaningless. As an example... most reptiles equate heat with light intensity to some degree (some don't of course) and will thermoregulate based on light intensity rather than temperature, such as a bearded dragon basking under a flourescent light, even though an area with heat tape under it in the dark is warmer... Given a removal of the associated conditions (light) a diurnal species will burn itself to the point of death on a hotrock or malfunctioning chunk of flexxwatt and not express ANY noticeable response to the sensory information (when the gut is cauterizing, I think it's safe to assume it causes pain). There is nothing in the behavioral pattern which can identify the proper response to end the sensory information so the animal cooks.

I'd place freezing to death in a similar category, it may cause pain, but given a basic premise of non-self awareness (another debate if it's a point of contention) and no instinctive response towards the pain information, it's meaningless pain because it doesn't cause any distress. Yes, this means I'm arguing that it's okay to cause pain IF it can be reasonabaly believed that the pain is not understood. I think I explained what I meant fairly well, but if there's someone who wants clarification, I'll certainly try to explain it better if it'll cut down on the hate mail.

[mice_unlimited]

CO2!!!!!!

[Jeff Hathaway]

Cookie,

CO (carbon monoxide) is known as the silent killer. CO2 (carbon dioxide) is a normal part of our atmosphere and our respiration processes. Indeed, it can kill if the concentration is higher than normal as discussed in the paper Darren posted. And it is silent, unless you're releasing large quantities of the gas into a chamber. But it is not the 'silent killer' of people in their homes or garages that you hear about on TV.

I have heard from rodent breeders several times that pinkies gassed with CO2 for very long exposure times did not die. They appeared to become unconscious, but soon recovered after removal from the gas. I believe the solution used most often was to gas them into unconsciousness and then freeze them, which sounds like a better way to go.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[Siretsap]

Originally posted by Cookie
First of all common sense tells me freezing anything to death is wrong!........................all i can say is please give your herps that much as to have it done right

ok cookie, or mice_unlimited should I say.

why do you need to back up your claim by loging under an other nickname and approuve yourself?

Originally posted by mice_unlimited
I 100% agree Cookie

Am just curious.

[Matt_K]

cookie, if you're caught making another account for reasons like this or ANY other reason again, both names AND your ip will be banned...

-Matt

[bistrobob85]

now thats funny... can i back myself up too? I would feel sooo much secure!!!

Anyways, as for the killing, i haven't been able to reach the initial site on freezing herps but in my opinion, cooling a reptile makes it unaware and nearly asleep... If i had to FREEZE one to death, i would defenetly get it to cool down a lot, then go to the refrigerator and then to the freezer. Putting it directly in the freezer would be pretty painful for sure... As for rodents, i knock them unconscious, preferably dead before i put them in the freezer. I don't feel bad about it because i truly feel it is the best death i can offer them.

Thats what i do and how i feel about it but just besides, why do we want to kill animals in a humane way? Isn't this a little ridiculous? To animals kill each other in a humane way? They can't, they're animals! I think we wan't to kill them in a humane way because we don't want to feel like animals... We kill them in a humane way just to consider ourselves as good people and justify it by the fact that we don't like to see them suffer. Suffering is a part of life, a part we fear and refuse, yes, but still a part of life.

phil.

[bistrobob85]

I meant '' Do animals kill each other in a humane way? ''

[Nicky]

hmmm i;m not so sure about the frezing one, at least for reptiles my cousins cham got sick a few years back after reaching around 10 years ( around thier at least) he went to a very experinced vet who simply put his cham in a modified deep freezer.The vet simply said they simply fell asleep due to the cold and that was that. Also I heard decaptiating a reptile was a very inhimane way to kill them , read it on one of the anti-rattlesnake roundups sights because thats the way there killed thier and it causes excess suffering( can't rember exacatly) Has anyone else heard of this? The rest of the info seemed pretty accurate but I'm not to sure about the freezing and decaptition of reptile ones( mammals are obviously a different story.)
Just my opinion though
Cheers
Kayla

[thunder]

actually, having worked in a lab, i was taught that decapitation is the most humane may to put a reptile down, provided that it is done with one swift stroke. the spinal cord is severed and death is immediate. the body may twitch, but the animal is not suffering, as it is dead. it is very selfish of people to freeze their animals; they do it cuz they dont want to see it die, maybe they feel less responsible for the death if it is indirect like that. but, having autopsied animals that were frozen to death, i have seen first hand that ice crystals form on the organs, tearing the flesh, before death occured. we know that it was before death because it caused internal bleeding, which does not happen after death. if an animal is alive while its insides are being torn apart by ice crystals, it is my strong belief that they are in pain. as for the argument of whether or not reptiles feel pain, i would rather err on the side of being overly humane.

[Nicky]

ahhh i c, thanks for sharing I'll rember that in the future when the enadable comes.

[Linds]

Originally posted by coldblooded
Actually, freezing pinkies (just pinkies) is better than using co2 because the pinkies are naturally quite resistant to asphyxiation...


While gassing them is ineffective, freezing pinkies is not a good method either. I just use massive brain trauma. I pinch their heads flat with my fingers. It works great for young rodents.

Originally posted by thunder
if an animal is alive while its insides are being torn apart by ice crystals, it is my strong belief that they are in pain.

While they are no doubt still alive, can you say that they are any bit aware or even remotely conscious? Even brumating reptiles are barely responsive, and this is only at 60 degrees, not even close to -30 or whatever. They need heat for their system to function, so if they are suddenly deprived, then... ? I'm not so much concerned with the visual findings as I am interested in finding out what actually happens. Is it merely an assumption that it isn't humane based on necropsy results?

That being said, I agree any massive trauma to the brain or decapitation is the best 'home methods'. I'm undecided where I stand on freezing, as I haven't really seen any facts that lead me to a definite answer.

[thunder]

we have no way of knowing what the animal is feeling. when you note that a brumating snake is unresponsive, it is important to remember that its inability to react is not neccessarily an indicator that it is not aware of stimulus. it is true that the results of my necropsies do not show that the animal felt pain, but as i said before, i do not believe that it is unreasonable to assume that as long as the animal is alive it can feel pain to some degree; and i choose to avoid this method of euthanasia because i am not willing to gamble on it. better to use other methods that we know are immediate than use a method where there is even question of causing suffering to the animal.

[coldblooded]

Thunder:

Decapitation leaves the reptile with no head..yes... but apparently there is brain activity up to an hour.

I can't be sure as I have never decapitated anything. I belive the best way is co2 and a good ol' pithing. (I believe thats what they call it)

Mike

[Linds]

Originally posted by thunder
we have no way of knowing what the animal is feeling.

Not true. I'm sure there are some means of measuring the animals brain activity during freezing, what the responses are and analyzing what chemicals are being released. These are all sure indicators of what a reptile would be feeling.

Originally posted by coldblooded

I can't be sure as I have never decapitated anything. I belive the best way is co2 and a good ol' pithing. (I believe thats what they call it)


Many reptiles have shallow enough respiratory systems that make co2 a poor option for euthanization.

[coldblooded]

I did not realize that Linds...

You really squish their heads between your fingers? EWWWW... I don't even like when I squish a cricket through the bag!!

Mike

[Linds]

Originally posted by coldblooded

Decapitation leaves the reptile with no head..yes... but apparently there is brain activity up to an hour.


I've not heard of brain activity lasting that long, but even if it were to last all day, it wouldn't be functioning properly, or even remotely conscious. The brain needs a constant supply of oxygen-rich blood, regardless of the type of animal, to function. 2-4 minutes without fresh blood supplying the brain will cause the brain to start dying.

Hehehe... yeah the brain squishing took a while to get used to squishing the little ones. Took a little practice to get it on the right angle, so as not to shoot the brain out the nostrils :eek: It's an ultra hands-on approach, but it's the only way I can see of immediately killing them.

[reptiguy420]

WOW!You guys actually squeez the pinks head till it caves in?Thats sick.

[Ptindy]

Is it just me or do we seem to be referring to euthanizing healthy animals that are fully aware of what's going on? If I ever considered euthanizing any of my pets they would have to be near death or no chance of survival. If it was an old dog or something I would probably just want to be with him till his eyes closed. If the dog was bleeding severely then I would get him euthanized. But that's only because he won't fit in the freezer! jk... It's actually only because they have feelings, they know when your down or up and respond to your body actions, it's amazing. But a reptile, I wouldn't hesitate to cool down and eventually freeze. Like I said, I would only have to consider this option if they had to go, and when something is going to die and there is no way around it how bad could freezing possibly be? Call be a cold hearted whatever, but I've heard of people, animals and other creatures having their lives ended in a less humane way then freezing. And as for the blood freezing inside reptiles and causing pain, I wouldn't buy that for one minute. My hands get frozen in the winter to the point where I could slam them against a wall and feeling very little pain, my blood obviously didn't freeze. I think the reptile would no longer feel anything or would no longer be consious. Let's flip the boat around, now, dosing the think with gaslone and striking a match for a reptile, that would be pretty brutal, but still, don't reptiles burn themselves all the time and not show any responses besides physical harm? What about the crickets that we feed to our geckos who get their leg crushed in a mouth, then the next leg, oh oh then he loses both, oh now his abdomen is being squished repeatedly, and finally the head, there we go, swallow. Should we be cutting of their heads first?

Mike

[coldblooded]

With everyone being so worried that the feeder animals receive a humane death, maybe we should stop using them.

Mike

[marisa]

"With everyone being so worried that the feeder animals receive a humane death, maybe we should stop using them"

Well since feeding snakes lettuce isn't an option, I don't see anything wrong with trying to give the feeder mice or rats the best possible death without pain or suffering.

With that said, I don't worry about it too much. We simply whack rats and mice over the head for an instant kill... or use Co2.

Marisa

[coldblooded]

I don't see anything wrong with a humane death either, it's just that everyone is going to look at this differently.

Snakes probably don't eat lettuce, but do they eat F/T animals in the wild? Probably not.

We're all still good people, though.

Mike

[M_surinamensis]

Did anyone actually read the initial post? The thread wasn't initiated about feeder animals, although it's a closely related discussion... it was about appropriate euthanasia methods for HERPS. While it wasn't specified, I believe that it was kind of assumed a reasonable justification for the euthanasia would be present to begin with and was really a question of methodology. Not "is it right or wrong" but "is it right or wrong when performed this way"

[augerdvm]

nice to see that so many people have differing thoughts on a potentially "touchy" situation....

Euthanasia was not the origional discussion...the method used was.....

Seeing how humane euthanasia by injection can be.....i cant fathom putting an animal in the freezer...

the best drugs avail are controlled drugs and cannot be dispensed...not everyone can set up a CO2 chamber either..

All i ask is that you at least consult a veterinarian before attempting an "at home" euthansia...

most vets will offer the servicxe for you at a reasonable rate (some for free sometimes)...

arent our pets worth it?

IF your pet is "just a number" then why are you in the hobby for the right reason???

[Frillie]

.When euthanizing an animal... any animal... I choose the method which is most convenient for me.

To M_surinamensis:

You don't deserve to keep animals of any sort...I would make this a lot more critical if I could

[M_surinamensis]

To M_surinamensis:

You don't deserve to keep animals of any sort...I would make this a lot more critical if I could

By all means feel free... but read the entire post and linked thread before doing so and be prepared to get called on the validity of your criticisms and have a semi-abusive crash course education in why it's not smart to question anything Seamus says.

[Frillie]

Firsty, I'm not juvenile enough to respond to a thread without reading the entire thing, and I stand by my past statement.

And secondly, you're making yourself out to be a pretty righteous guy, and if you think provoking pathetic little confrontations makes you a big, important man you're in need of a serious reality check.