New and have an emergancy!!!!!!!!

[TurtleGurl]

my Cuban knight anole escaped and my kitten cut its leg open, scratched its side and eye, and tail. What do I do do i put it out of its misery
reply ASAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
-victoria

[BoidKeeper]

Put it in the freezer.

[TurtleGurl]

is that what I should really do? Do I put him in a bag then in the freezer or what?

[Matt_K]

If you don't want the Anole anymore, then yes, Put it in the freezer as Trevor so delicatly put it..

However, if you feel that it might be able to make it, take it to a vet.. If there's nothing else that can be done, they'll put it down properly... The choice is ultimatly yours..

-Matt

[TurtleGurl]

ok

[Tim_Cranwill]

We aren't vets and we aren't there. All we can do is speculate as to how bad the injuries are. Either take it to a vet, post some pics for us to see or show it to a "reptile person" near you and go from there. I wouldn't give you any other advice knowing as little about the situation as I do.

Best of luck with your little guy though. :(

[peterm15]

please dont put him in the freezer.... thats cruel and inhumane... how would you like to be frozen to death... he is stil your pet right.

[HeatherRose]

For your consideration:

Originally posted by augerdvm
BTW: to those recommending putting the animal in the freezer...realize that studies have shown that that is a VERY PAINFUL way for herps to die. Ice crystal's actually form in the organs before death occurs. I personally havent felt my liver freeze but i think it would be very unpleasant. THere are more humane ways to euthanatize your animals.

[geckoguy157]

um actualy ii find it to be a humane way of putting them out of there misery and you do not put them in the freezer right away first let him cool down to room temp for a couple hours then put him in the frige for 8 hours then into the freezer it slow there heart rate down and they dont feal anything maybe im wrong but thats what ive been told they are cold blodded though it makes sense

[Matt_K]

And that's Humane??? So if someone SLOWLY froze you to death, that would be okay???? :rolleyes:

oh, and by the way.. The quote above. is from a VET who frequents the site.. Sorry, but i'd take his word over yours anyday..

[HeatherRose]

maybe im wrong but thats what ive been told they are cold blodded though it makes sense

Yes, maybe you are wrong.

I guess the licensed vet doesn't know more than the seventeen year old who can't punctuate :\

[Tim_Cranwill]

Originally posted by HeatherRose
I guess the licensed vet doesn't know more than the seventeen year old who can't punctuate :\

Hmmm... I don't think the insult was needed at the end. He admitted that MAYBE he was wrong, didn't he????

[geckoguy157]

HeatherRose you know what heather your a complete joke you are a prime example of why i get very disgusted at this site and sometimes this hobby and how people act I WAS JUST GIVING MY DAM OPINION i said maye im wrong does that in anyway give you the right to knock me and let me guess your perfect never make a mistake never do anything wron, i got this advice from a very respected breeder who is very knowledgeable.

hey arnt moderaters suposed to stop things like people being knocked:rolleyes:

and now matt you must be a bioligist by how your telling evryone that them slowly freezing them hurts them more




thanks tim

[SadisticPsycho]

Alright, enough of the arguing. We should be trying to help out the person with the injured anole remember!

I don't think you should freeze it. I'm not going to give any advice on how you should kill it because I have never dealt with a problem like that before. All I do know is that you shouldn't freeze it.

[HeatherRose]

Relax dude.

From your post I got: "Um, actually it is a humane way"...that's not an opinion, it's an expression of fact. It's not my fault I pointed out that I needed the oxygen machine after reading your post.

let me guess your perfect never make a mistake never do anything wron,

Hardly the truth, but I do make a point of not arguing with scientific fact.

I really don't think I'm a complete joke, I'm a person with feelings and ideas too. I'm as entitled to my opinion as are each and every one of you.

[peterm15]

evryone here is off the point... wether its cruel or not how could you freeze your pet... having your pet put down is hard enough without having to freeze it yourself... it may cost more than the actual pet but if you dont wanna spend that than maybe ppl should start re thinking owning animals...

i could never fantom freezing any of my leos or cham... freezing anything in general... if you cant afford it call around im sure theres got to be a vet somewhere that will either foot the bill or do it for just the price of the meds... if not ask if they can give you some sort of payment plan.. maybe go in every monday and give them 5 bucks.. really if you cant afford that then you shouldnt have a pet...

TURTLEGURL.... this is not aimed toward you in any way... its ment to be in general but when i re read it i realised it sounded like a personal attack...
ITS NOT AIMED AT ANYONE...lol... just coverin my but so no one gets offended

[geckoguy157]

so that gives you the right to say

"I guess the licensed vet doesn't know more than the seventeen year old who can't punctuate :\"

no it dosent at all this is supoosed to be a positive atmosphere where people can exchange opinions and that is my opinion and how i do things.

and even if you did ask a vet ok good for oyu one said that i know with vets doctors anyone like that they all have varying opions about issue's just because your vet or if you even asked a vet said so dosent mean his opinion is the only one that counts
i know 2 licensed vets ive asked them on the issues before and other issues they both had difrent opinions.

just because one test was made and they came to a conclusion that they actualy feal pain and it hurts them, could be wrong because they could have had difrent varriants meaning that a whole nother test would have to be made and you would find anohter new conclusion most likely

[Matt_K]

HeatherRose you know what heather your a complete joke

So, you're upset because someone insult you, but you rebuttle with an insult of your own..

I WAS JUST GIVING MY DAM OPINION

Actually...

um actualy its a humane way of putting them out of there misery

I took that sentence as you passing it off as fact.. Perhaps you were just misinterpreted?

i got this advice from a very respected breeder who is very knowledgeable.

Everyone is soo quick to say that they got their info from a 'knowledgable' breeder, but names are never given..

hey arnt moderaters suposed to stop things like people being knocked

Yes, and Moderators are members too and allowed to have passionate feelings about issues and are also allowed to voice their opinions.

wether its cruel or not how could you freeze your pet...

Well put.. Personally, My pet's aren't that disposable to me.. Whether it be a $50 Anole (I think that's what the Cubans go for) or a $200 Beardie..

Again, Turtlegurl, the decision is ultimatly yours, im sure you'll make the choice that bests suits YOU..

-Matt

[Jungle Jen]

TURTLEGURL...
If there is a veterinarian in your area please phone them and ask if they can humanely euthanize your lil guy. They can either use an injection which acts within seconds, or gas which takes maybe 20 seconds, but both ways are very humane. IF you are unable to make it to a veterinarian I would suggest using CO2 gas to humanely let him pass on. This link will give you the information needed to perform this.

http://www.alysion.org/euthanasia/

I am sorry to hear he got hurt, may he pass on peacefully.

[Cookie]

12 gauge!

[Matt_K]

Originally posted by geckoguy157
and even if you did ask a vet ok good for oyu one said that i know with vets doctors anyone like that they all have varying opions about issue's just because your vet or if you even asked a vet said so dosent mean his opinion is the only one that counts
i know 2 licensed vets ive asked them on the issues before and other issues they both had difrent opinions.

Okay, i've now read that paragraph a couple of times and I think you missed this part of the quote that Heather posted..

BTW: to those recommending putting the animal in the freezer...realize that studies have shown that that is a VERY PAINFUL way for herps to die.

The key word here is STUDIES.. How can you argue with scientific studies???

-Matt

[peterm15]

ok everyone just relax..... back to helping turtlegurl.....

the main difference is that SOME breeders, respected or not, frankly dont care... there animals are disposible. im sure if i had 1000 animals comin in and out of my place id have a different opinion. but as it stands with me these animals are my pets.... i couldnt freeze my pet...

just a guess is that turtlegurl's anole is her pet... she doesnt seem to be a breeder...

so turtlegurl... does the wound look to big to the point that the anole cant be saved.... if not take him to a vet and have it checked out... in the mean time keep him as comfortable as possible... follow every anole care fact to the t. just in smaller perportions...if he cant walk lie him down in a small container at a nice temp.....

if you dont think he can be saved call the vet and tell them that your anole needs to be put down... i dont know the cost but at least he will be comfortable as possible till he passes...

if you choose to freeze so be it. just remember he is your pet... would you do that to your cat or dog. so why should a lizard be any diffrent

[Siretsap]

seems the webcite cannot go a whole month without any issues ;-)

I have to admit HeatherRose that since you are a moderator, you shouln't post certain things. It's just not the right example to be giving out.

How about we stick back to the subject. As for freezing, I have yet to see a truthful study prove that freezing is bad for your reptile. And who was tha licenced vet that came on this webcite? cause the only person I actually know that is close to a vet is a vet technician that comes here. I am not aware of a licenced vet on here. Heck if he does come here, please pm me his info, would like to add the information in case of need one day.
Thanks

[peterm15]

sorry by the time i returned 4 more posts were here... i havent read it but im gonna reasearch that co2 idea

[geckoguy157]

see thats because i show great respect for the breeder and do not wish to bring there name into this because it would not be far for them to have to be involved with this.

and ok you can have an opinion but directly knocking another member and saying there a seventeen year old who can puntuate i thik thats going a litle to far and was a comment that was very out of line and not needed.

what she did just gives a bad name to the site, what if some younger childsparents came on here to look and see about a reptile then see's a MODERATOR is saying to a member your just a 17 year old who cant puntuate do you think they will realy want there child to be any part of this hobby.

and what i said of course i was angry who wouldnt be i thought she would have handled it in a more apropriate manner being a mod and all like maybe say some of the research she has come up with then there would be a disscussion and evryone could learn something.

[HeatherRose]

I have to admit HeatherRose that since you are a moderator, you shouln't post certain things. It's just not the right example to be giving out.

I agree, and I do apologize.

I didn't talk to a vet geckoguy, I posted that quote from another thread. This whole 'freezing' thing is not an opinion, its a fact...it's why the cryogenic freezing of humans hasn't been perfected yet :p

geckoguy, you were angry and I was angry too...I'm only human, afterall. It wasn't meant to be a deliberate putdown...it was meant to bring to light that your 'fact' isn't as valid as those of science.

[Siretsap]

Damn Mr Walt Disney!!! ;)

seriously, in the methods most of us have available at home, freezing is the best way to go (considering it's a small reptile). I do not know that many people who keep dry ice near with a chamber just in case a reptile gets hurt beyond any chance of rescuing it.

As for the study, I have not seen one that was done properly, I have seen people post opinions about it in articles, or only hypothesis on this subject, but not a study done to prove anything.

[geckoguy157]

ya th eonyl reason i think its not painfull for them is due to the cold slowing down the blood flow thats why i think that if you lower the temperature gradualy not just imdeiatly they become less aware as they get colder as you probably notice when reptiles cages are cold, its kinda like there being put to sleep like when you get surgery and they knock you out you dont feal the pain until you wake up except they dont wake up i agree though i think just imediatly freezing them would be very painfull, i dont know about the co2 idea though ive seen it done with mice it basically makes them suffocate i dont htink it would be painfull but still woudlnt be to great thats why i prefer freezing.

[peterm15]

siretsap... you should read that link.... it actually suggests not useing dry ice... just vinigar and baking soda... it seems like an even more humane way to put down an animal.. i liked it...

id personally opt for a vet but if for some reason i couldnt id definatly go for the co2 method... it puts the animal to sleep first at a proper temp and it seems to have been studied a fair bit... theres a few references..

as for the studies... forget them... lol... who here is comfortable at sub zero temps... i personally treat my animals very well as im sure the rest of you do... but i personally id perfer them to die comfortably at nice temps not in a freezer where you couldnt expect them to live on a day to day basis...

[peterm15]

geckoguy157 i agree with you that a fridge would be better first but its still a slow sold death... its not nessassarly the part of freezing after they sleep its the getting to sleep part... theyd be so cold

[geckoguy157]

thats what im saying tthough the cooling slows down there blood flow they arnt aware because they are cold blooded, its not like if you threw a live mouse in the frezzer or something, i think it would be difrent

[Jeff_Favelle]

evryone here is off the point... wether its cruel or not how could you freeze your pet... having your pet put down is hard enough without having to freeze it yourself... it may cost more than the actual pet but if you dont wanna spend that than maybe ppl should start re thinking owning animals...

I'd have WAY more of a problem with people keeping their pets alive for selfish reasons (love, emotion, nostalgia, etc etc) than putting a poor animal out of its misery that is IN the predicament because of the FAULT OF THE OWNER. People that keep their dogs and cats alive WAY past their due dates because they would miss them too much or can't bear to see them go. Its a nice thought, but its SELFISH. You think the gecko wants to be walkin' around with giant puncture holes and other internal baddies just so you don't miss it?

I'd go to the local college, get a SMALL amount of ether, use it to anesthetize the lizard, and then freeze it. Very very humane, and the lizard feels no pain or suffering. All well and good until the next lizard gets out because of careless husbandry..........

[Matt_K]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
People that keep their dogs and cats alive WAY past their due dates because they would miss them too much or can't bear to see them go. Its a nice thought, but its SELFISH.

I agree with that 100%.. We see it all too often with the elderly, keeping their 30 year old Cat alive cause they'll miss it.. No, I don't have anything against the elderly, im not far off.. :D

-Matt

[Tim_Cranwill]

No, Matt. You just ACT elderly sometimes! :D :p lol

[peterm15]

i do as well... 100% and the either is an extreemly great idea... these are all ways to make an in humane thing, humane.... and thats great..

geckoguy157 does this sound good to you or would you still go for the fridge first... maybe both might be over kill...

ps... i wouldnt be able to freeze live mice myself either...

[geckoguy157]

jeffs idea is a realy good idea i never realy though about doing anything like that but i think id still stick with the slowly cooling them down though because it always available and seams to work. and if you have a sick animal you dont wanna have to wait a couple days till you can get something to anesthetize the animal.

PS jeff my jcp i got from you is doing awesome and eating awesome.

[Matt_K]

Originally posted by Tim_Cranwill
No, Matt. You just ACT elderly sometimes! :D :p lol

LOL, trust me man, im getting there.. I have the aches and pains to prove it!! LOL :D 26 and counting. :'(

[Jeff_Favelle]

Ha ha Matt's a fogie!


That's wicked geckoguy!! I can't wait until it gets older and THEN you'll see the true appeal of Jungles my man!

Freezing isn't too too bad with reptiles (not that any of us can know for sure). They are ectothermic, so thier body process should slow down. I would choose the ether method first, but the freezer should do the job in minutes. I feel bad for the little guy. Wish there was another way man.

[lostwithin]

Regarding the original post, I personally would raise the temperatures in the cage and see if the little guy lives through the night. You could try treating the cuts with polysporin (non medicated) and see if the little guy survives, if it is too sever chances are he wont last through the night.

Good luck,

as for the argument that broke out I don’t know the facts on humane killing, so I wont comment, I would like to commend Heather for apologizing for her original comment at first I was surprised to see the original response. But it takes a big person to come back and apologize, a lot of people would just have kept on arguing making things worse but that would be why a lot of people aren’t moderators.

Devon

[geckoguy157]

yes that was very nice of heather to apologize i was quie supirsed and yes i agree scentific study's should be right but there is so many varriants that could come into play that could make the studys not accurate im not saying the studys are wrong im just saying maybe there was difrent varriaants in there studys and id like to see these studys that they have aprently found it would be intresting to read?

[Jungle Jen]

Yes there is a veterinarian who posts on this board but I can't recall his name at the moment. I myself am a veterinary technician and have studied euthanasia extensively. Ether or other anesthetizing agents are not always available to the general public. If for some reason the owner is unable to take their animal to a veterinarian for humane euthanization, I strongly recommend the CO2 method in the link I posted. It is a BCVMA/CVMA/AAHA approved method of humane euthanasia. It is not expensive or difficult to perform. I also agree that animals should not be kept alive because you love them, if they are injured or suffering the kindest and most loving thing you can do for your pet is let them go peacefully. I have included the link again just in case.

http://www.alysion.org/euthanasia/



Creature Comforts Pet Rescue
email to: TheCatsPajamas@shaw.ca

[geckoguy157]

do you know of any sites that have studys of gradualy freezing being painfull to painfull to animals or books?

[marisa]

http://www.research.psu.edu/arp/euthanasia.shtml

The info is all over this page but specifically:
"Freezing of unanesthetized animals is not acceptable as a method of euthanasia."

And then from this website:
http://www.creighton.edu/researchcompliance/IACUC/IACUC_Euthanasia_Guidelines.htm

At the very bottom they talk about acceptable methods for killing reptiles, here is a qoute:

"Freezing a conscious animal is not permissible, except when small animals are flash frozen in liquid nitrogen."

Those are two of many pages.

Marisa

[BoidKeeper]

No, Matt. You just ACT elderly sometimes! lol
I still say we should put him in the freezer. He's past his prime.lol
Love ya Matt,
Trevor
PS
This is Trev, I used to be a mod, I'm on your msn list. Remeber now? Oh never mind.

[geckoguy157]

ok well reading the first one about cooling it realy contradicts its self at the bottom it says

"There is no evidence that whole body cooling reduces pain or is clinically efficacious when used as an adjunct to physical methods of euthanasia in ectothermic animals. "

im undertanding that as they realy dont know do you know one that has the procedure thyey preformed cause like i was saying about difrent methods and variants im sure just thrwoing them in the freezer hurts them because it would be a shock to there system. it dosent make sense because it is saying even with

"

[geckoguy157]

whops posted twice

[marisa]

Reduces PAIN.

As in it's not a method to reduce pain by lowering a tempurature a reptile is exposed to.

That part has nothing to do with euthanesia but read it how you will. :D It means it doesn't take away pain invovled in the whole process.

It clearly states its NOT acceptable to put a fully awake reptile down using a freezer. They are sort of talking about two different things.

Marisa
P.S. I am not getting involved in this whole arguement as there are articles and studies all over the net and beyond that say freezing a fully awake reptile is not acceptable means of putting a reptile down. All I was doing was sharing those with you since you asked. :D
Good day.

[geckoguy157]

ok well i was readin the melisa kaplin one and it says that anesthetized repitls can be frozen but the other one says they cant

[marisa]

I tried to avoid using her webpage as a source.

Mellisa Kaplan is FOR a ban against reptile ownership, has HORRIBLE caresheets and is known to give questionable advice in the reptile community. This subject is not really one for this thread though.

But please watch your sources when doing research. Some are not as good as they seem.

Marisa

[HeatherRose]

yes that was very nice of heather to apologize i was quie supirsed

I'm not trying to be nice, it's just taking responsibility for my actions as any mod OR member should...

And anyone taking any of Melissa Kaplans' caresheets to heart should at least run a search on her name in the BOI at www.faunaclassifieds.com first.

:D

[lostwithin]

Your right, I meant it was nice to see someone being responsible. I didn't mean to imply you were nice.

Devon

[HeatherRose]

No need to be so rude, but thanks.

[peterm15]

ahhh now i know why the link i posted was deleted.. at least it wasnt written by her

[Matt_K]

Peterm15, where did you post a link?? I'd be interested to know why someone would have deleted your link.. No one should mess with your posts...

[peterm15]

no it wasnt deleted just edited.... here watch ill post it here.... this is what heppens....

http://www.**************/rockymountain/RMHPages/RMHveiled.htm

[HeatherRose]

That's because links from that site aren't allowed here...the site has a word-blocker that blocks it automatically...

Run a search to see why this is if you're curious.

[peterm15]

i dont know why it happens... but i think its kinda cool to edit without seeing it..

its a chameleon care sheet that helped me out alot... i posted it for someone cause i got the impression that they needed some more info on veilds

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58251

so there not allowing it or you guys.... where should i run a search... ssnakess or web

[Matt_K]

As Heather mentioned above, we don't allowing linking to KS just as they don't even allow the mention of ssnakess. It's something that's been in place since the beginning and I don't see it changing..

-Matt

[peterm15]

cool with me... the info here is better anyway... ill go edit that link right now so its not there... thanks

[lostwithin]

Oops, sorry heather, I had put a smiley face on there And then edited a spelling error I must have accidentally deleted the smiley while doing so. It was intended as a joke. I didn’t mean to come off as rude, that'll teach me to joke around while people are arguing. sorry for the misunderstanding.

Devon

[HeatherRose]

No problem dude :D

[lostwithin]

Just to clarify my original comment was meant to come up as shown below.


" Your right, I meant it was nice to see someone being responsible. I didn't mean to imply you were nice.:D :p "


Those little smiley things can really make a diffrence. otherwise jokes online are hard to read. Sorry again for the confusion.


Edit, you posted while I was typing, I hate when that happens.


Devon

[BoidKeeper]

Devon I think you have to joke when things get like this. Sometimes it helps to break the tention.
Now two points. If a herp has been attacked by a cat and has limbs missing and puncher wounds and it's after hours or far from a vet. What's worse, putting it in the freezer or letting it die from it's wounds. Also I know that some people would not spend $50 to put down a $25 herp. It may be the right thing to do but it's sad but true some people won't spend more to humainly put down a herp than they paid for it.
Second, does no else here think we should but Matt in a freezer?
Cheers,
Trevor

[HeatherRose]

LOL it's okay, no worries...if anyone knows about stuff being misconstrued online it's me ;)

[Matt_K]

Originally posted by BoidKeeper
Second, does no else here think we should but Matt in a freezer?
Cheers,
Trevor

Assuming you mean, 'put'.. I'm all for it.. You better bring the entire active member base with you though.. :D

-Matt

[BoidKeeper]

Damn typos! You win this round Matt! I even edited once because I caught one too!
Oh and Matt, it won't take the whole member base. Juse one with a lot of Rum.lol
Cheers,
Trevor

[coldblooded]

I only read to the end of the first page... she didn't put the anole in the freezer did she? I hope no one told her to decapitate it either.


Mike

[Brent Strande]

I still wonder about the cooling slowly process too. What happens when it gets cold outside? Do the animals feel pain as they slow down? It's kind of like a frog put in room temp water versus dropped into boiling water. If the frog began to feel pain as the room temp water was heated to a boil, wouldn't he react?

At the same time, wouldn't the reptile just get more and more sluggish until it was no longer consious?

I see freezing a reptile as very similar to CO2ing a mammal. Both cause the animal to slow down and functions begin to stop.

Hmmm, anywho, I think that it would be a better suggestion to freeze the Cuban than let is sit overnight and die over hours or even days...

[Manitoban Herps]

Ummmm...so how is your anole?

I love cuban's very beautiful large aggressive lizards :)

[peterm15]

ya i dont think shes been back... lol