Concerned

[Rubix]

I'm not sure if this is the proper forum for this (are garter snakes considered colubrids?) but I have a concern...

To make a long story short, I had been out looking for snakes with some friends, and we kept two hatchling garters we found. I took one of them, and a friend of a friend that had tagged along took the other one. I told him all the basic rules of husbandry, and to call me if he had any questions. He, however, insisted that he knew all there was to it because he had once babysat a garter from his school over the summer.

Recently, I found out that he had been given another garter snake, considerably bigger than the hatchling I had given him. (I urged him to let this bigger one go, since it was already thriving in the wild, but he would have none of it.) He's keeping them together in a 10G aquarium on fish gravel and dried grass, and had been feeding them 3 or 4 small feeder minnows every two or three weeks. Now he's decided that it's easier to feed them dead fish, so he buys fish from the grocery store and chops them up into pieces to feed to them.

Am I wrong in being upset by this? I've told him time and time again to try and convert them to f/t mice(mine accepted this change in diet very readily and is thriving), but he can't be bothered - it's cheaper for him to feed them frozen fish. And I can't imagine the snakes are getting even CLOSE to the required nutrition from only pieces of fish given to them every couple weeks.

This may not be too big of a deal... :p But this guy is frusterating me. He hasn't listened to any of the things I've tried to tell him, and if these snakes are suffering under care like that then I feel I should do something about it, seeing as it was me that let him take the hatchling in the first place.

Oh crud, so much for making a long story short :eek: Sorry about that :p Anything you guys have to say would be appreciated!

-Rubix

[BoidKeeper]

Am I wrong in being upset by this?
Am I wrong in being upset about the fact that you people collected the snakes in the first place? I don't think so. I think you should all release those wild aninmals and if you want a pet snake buy a corn, a captive colubrid. Or you can actually get CBB garters if you look hard enough.
My two cents,
Trevor

[Rubix]

I plan on it. I'm saving up my money for some more corns and I only plan on keeping the garter for the winter and then I will release it next spring once it's warmed up. Maybe there's no justification for it but I can't very well release it now, can I?

Nevertheless, I take very good care of my snakes. I just don't know what to do about this guy - he doesn't appear to be taking good care of them at all, and I'm willing to bet he'd not be willing to let them go.

I figured I might get some replies like that though... apologies for posting on such a controversial topic.

[Tim_Cranwill]

You can get CB garters for like $15, I'm pretty sure. They might be a bit hard to find but they won’t be expensive.

To answer a few of your questions and concerns as best I can...

Garters are colubrids.

Garters are one snake that do live in a "communal" environment most of the year (in this part of the country anyway), i.e.; they brumate in dens together and breed en mass then separate for the summer (1/2 of the year they are living in groups). One could argue that either way. Personally, I would house them separately but if someone had a few similarly sized garters around, that is one case where groups would be “ok” together. Just be aware that feeding time can get nuts. They MUST be fed separately.

As for the feeding schedule, it’s winter and they are wild animals. There is a good chance they won’t eat much this time of year anyway. I had the best winter success with bait worms. You can get them at fishing/tackle shops year round. In the summer try wild frogs or f/t mice. Some feed fish but it’s not recommended that they be fed a diet of fish alone.

Housing is the same as other commonly kept colubrids as far as temps and etc. Garters are a fairly active snake though, that’s one of their best features. If extra space can be afforded, they will likely use it. I’ve read a few places (I seem to recall) that some people use large water dishes for garters but that may be to allow for a steady supply of fish to thrive. I always just used a pretty standard size dish (I never really fed much fish though).

As for feeling bugged... You have every right to be bugged if it bugs you.

[HeatherRose]

No apologies necessary, you posted asking for information and you got some...opinionated information, but information nonetheless.

Catching and keeping wild herps can be a somewhat touchy subject is all ;)

[Tim_Cranwill]

You're worried about the time of year? If you plan to keep it for the winter and then let it go, brumate it in your house (easily done). Why mess up it's schedule just for your own shits and giggles?

[CamHanna]

Here is a link to Jonathan Crowe's garter snake care sheet. The guy knows his stuff and, while I haven't read all of it, I can't help but believe it is good guide.
http://www.gartersnake.info/care/

Jonathan presents mice as a nutritionally complete food for garters which I am unsure of (though I am by no means an expert). In the wild garters and most other natricines (water snakes, brown snakes, swamp snakes, queen snakes, earth snakes, grass snakes...) feed on fish, amphibians and invertebrates; off the top of my head I can't think of one mammal-eating natricine. I find it difficult then to believe that, despite the prey preferences of the entire family, captive garters can turn-up their noses at hundreds of thousand of years with rodents as insignificant food source and somehow adapt perfectly to an exclusive mouse diet.

When ever I have kept garters I fed a diet of frogs, fish and worms which worked well for me (as I've only kept them in the summer and prey availability was not an issue). Keep in mind that I have never kept any Thamnophis for more than three months before releasing it and as such I am certainly not as experienced or successful with them as Mr. Crowe.

As mentioned in the care page, thiaminase is a major concern when feeding fish. I have provided an article on mink and fox nutrition which lists some species of fish that contain thiaminase and some species that do not. I am sure your friend can find thiaminase free fish somewhere.
http://books.nap.edu/books/030903325X/html/64.html#pagetop

Good Luck
Cam

Edit: As others (I believe it was Tim) have pointed out, garters are colubrids. However the family Colubridae has traditionally been nothing but a dumping ground for non-viper, non-elapid, advanced snakes and many colubrids are only distantly related. Colubridae has been informally devided into a number of clads or subfamilies of more closely related species. Garters belong to the subfamily Natricinae, a group of small, live-bearing snakes (thus there are no hatchling garters).

[Katt]

In SK, there ARE no CB garters. And to even bring one in, considering in both AB, BC, garters are illegal, would cost quite a bit to ship it, even if the snake is $15.

Not trying to condone wild collecting, but if you're going to give someone advice, as least make it useful. Many people started out with keeping garters short term to get a feel for husbandry.

As for you Rubix, you can find CB corns quite easily in SK and for a good price as well.

At least you're taking care of your garter. Best of luck convincing your "friend" to do what's best.

[CamHanna]

In Ontario only native species are protected by legislation. Non-natives are not controlled. Is the same not true in Saskatchewan?

[rwg]

The problem with feeding pieces of fish, is you have to make sure the snake is getting bits of the whole fish. Boneless for instance wont have enough calcium, and you'll end up having to suplement. The tiamnase peoblem mentioned above is also an issue, but even fish with thiaminase can be used as part of a diet...just not as a staple. There's more than one way to feed a garter, but these are some of the issues to look at.

You can also try night-crawlers, or pieces of them. Some garter species love earthworms. Red Wigglers (composting worms sometimes used as bait) are apparently toxic to snakes.

The feeding schedule looks suspect to me. Garters tend to eat several times a week, not once or twice a month. Even though garters tend to do well in communities, I'd worry that the little one is going to start looking like a thanksgiving feast to the larger one.

Garters have been kept successfully on mice. Garters have been known to take mice in the wild on occasion. Just because they dont form a staple of their wild diet doesn't mean they are not a sound staple for captive specimens. Garters are overpowerers, so they dont kill their food....just swallow it down. Once mice are big enough to put up a struggle, their not worth it for garters in the wild. In captivity where we can offer dead food, this is no longer an issue.

Roy

[Tim_Cranwill]

Katt , are you sure ALL garters are "illegal" in all 3 provinces?

[Scales Zoo]

I think Katt only mentioned Alberta and B.C.

Garters are legal to collect in Saskatchewan (as long is it is not for commercial reasons). The only protected snakes are the red bellied snake, yellow-bellied racers, bullsnake, hognose snake and rattlesnake.

I thougth Manitoba protected it's garters, however - not sure on that one.

Ryan

P.S - if you have other snakes, keeping a wild snake for a bit an releasing it could cause a disaster. If it picks up any exotic bacteria, virus or parasite while at your home - you don't want it going back to the wild.

Ryan

[Tim_Cranwill]

I thought she said SK too, now I realize she didn't. Anyway, NATIVE garters are protected but I can order a CB Butler's (or anything other than <i>Thampnophis radix haydeni</i> and <i>Thampnophis sirtalis parietalis</i>. I just thought that would be the case elsewhere as well. Corrct me if I'm wrong.

[Scales Zoo]

From the hunting regulations.

Permitted Hunting
4 1. Subject to the other provisions of these regulations, outside of game preserves, road corridor game preserves, wildlife refuges, wildlife management units, regional parks, provincial parks, protected areas or recreations sites, any person may, without a licence hunt:

1)reptilia (snakes and turtles) other than rattlesnakes, bullsnakes, hognosed snakes, smooth green snakes, eastern yellow-bellied racers, northern red-bellied snakes, short-horned lizards and snapping turtles;

2)amphibia (frogs and salamanders);

--------------

The native garters in here in Saskatchewan, are legal to keep, kill, eat, make belts with - as long as you don't make any money by doing so (which is menitoned in another part of the act)

[Rubix]

Thanks for all the replies :) I'll be sure to give this guy a lot of the information provided here - maybe he'll listen better if he realizes it isn't me just making things up.

Tim, I never thought about brumating it... I don't breed any of my reptiles so I've never even concerned myself with it. Now that you've mentioned it though, I'll definetly look into it. Thanks

Ryan, I'm interested about what you said about it picking up something... I knew the risks in introducing wild bacteria to my CB snakes, so I've kept them in separate rooms and washed my hands between handling them, etc. But I never thought about it going the other way around - will the precautions I've taken have kept my garter disease free as well?

The more I research it seems the more I have to learn :p Gonna keep on truckin'...

Rubix

[Scales Zoo]

Originally posted by Rubix

Ryan, I'm interested about what you said about it picking up something... I knew the risks in introducing wild bacteria to my CB snakes, so I've kept them in separate rooms and washed my hands between handling them, etc. But I never thought about it going the other way around - will the precautions I've taken have kept my garter disease free as well?

It might, but protecting the wild snakes from your captive collection is more important, and most people don't look at it that way.

It's unfortunate that it ended up in captivity anyways, but legal or not, maybe it shouldn't go back to the wild.

Ryan