Burgundy? (Mykee, Tim, others, please look)

[Bristen]

Hi everyone,

I've bumped into someone in the area (by the name of Devon) that owns an interesting female... she would be, in my opinion, a burgundy... however, is she genetic or not, that question remains unanswered. I did not yet take pictures of her belly or with a normal for contrast yet, but I plan to do that sometime in the near future.

On the pictures that I've added to this post, it's not easy to see it, but the animal actually does not have any black... it's all brown with a red-ish tint to it.. sometimes the brown gets a little darker (such as on the neck behind her head), but it is not black even though it may look black in the pictures.

Also, I was searching through www.ssnakess.com and found that a few Canadians are working with burgundy-looking animals. Has anyone proven theirs genetic yet?

Please let me know what you folks think!

http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/bristen/BallPythons/Burgandy1.jpg

http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/bristen/BallPythons/Burgandy2.jpg

http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/bristen/BallPythons/Burgandy3.jpg

http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/bristen/BallPythons/Burgandy4.jpg

http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/bristen/BallPythons/Burgandy5.jpg

Thanks for looking!
Bristen.

[Tim_Cranwill]

As you know, it's impossible to say until she's bred and re-bred but I would say she's worth looking into, for sure!

Unfortunately, I lost my unproven “burg” this summer to unknown causes. :( If you do end up breeding her, I would be VERY interested in a chance to own some of her offspring. :) But Devon a case or two of beer and borrow her for a few months! ;) :D

[lostwithin]

Hey Tim, I agree completely she is definitely worth breeding to try and prove those genes, the pic's Bristin took of show her color a bit but it's a hard thing to photograph, You'd have to see her in person to really see the "burgundy". She really is lacking the normal black coloration. I have had that girl for 7 years she was the first snake I ever owned; apparently it was a good choice lol. It’s about time I put her into a breeding project.

Devon

[Tim_Cranwill]

When I had mine, I found it hard to get her true colors in a picture. Just by the pics I would get a 50/50 response as to what she was or was not. When people saw her in person, it was always the same reaction "there's definitely something different with her".

[Manitoban Herps]

Tim, did I see Burg while I was there..though I did..was around the end of august?

[Tim_Cranwill]

You probably did, Kevin. :)

[mykee]

Well it sure looks like a burgundy to me, but what do I know. I've got a burgundy LTC that looks very similar to her, she's breeding right now. Good luck with her, "there's definitely something different with her".

[Invictus]

Something different indeed... I'm no expert, but I have owned normal BPs, and there's nothing normal about the BP pictured here. Good luck, I hope it proves out!

[BoidKeeper]

Looks normal to me.
Trevor

[Bristen]

Tim: I'm VERY sorry to hear you lost yours.. that's horrible!! Devon and I have already agreed that nothing will be sold in the first generation if we ever should be able to produce anything with her this year (we are VERY late in the game for the project this year)...

Mykee: I saw old posts of yours where you posted pictures of your burg-looking animal.. you say she's breeding this year, but have you ever proved her trait to be genetic yet??

Trevor: You're a funny character my friend :p

Thanks for the replies everyone! We'll do our best to try and get her proven... hoping for the best!

Thanks,
Bristen.

[lostwithin]

Bristin is right, anything she produces this year will be held back this year we did start out quite late in the season, but I'm still hoping for the best, What can I say I'm a born optimist.

Trevor,
ha ha, you’ll have to come down some time and take a closer look at her, case of beer says at the very least you'll admit she’s not normal if you see her in person.

Devon

[Tim_Cranwill]

He might just lie for a free case of beer! ;) :P

[Ron]

There have been Burg's around for quite a while and I don't think anyone has proven it genetic yet. Good luck with yours, I hope you prove her out.

[Tim_Cranwill]

Ron: http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/matrix/traits/burgundy.asp

That's not to say every "purple-ish" ball out there is a genetic burg but there are some that have been proven.

[Ron]

I stand corrected. Funny that they have been around since 2002 and they haven't been as exposed as most morphs.

Also in the pic on Ralph's site they look like they have black on them. Devon, did yours start out with black and change to it's current colour.

[honduranfreekk]

I would try proving her out for shure and she dont look normal to me.Good luck with her and keep us posted.

Kelvin@Brigitte

[Bristen]

Thanks Ron & HonduranFreekk... it's apparently a female (I did not probe it yet, but at 2579g, she certainly looks like a female)... anyways, since she is a female if she wants to produce at least one male this year and breed again next year, we should be able to see if she is genetic or not.. 2 years is a very short timeline to prove out a new line, that's for sure... will definately keep everyone posted if anything exciting happens :D

Thanks,
Bristen.

[Invictus]

Yeah, it looks like the "burgundy" morph, as defined by Davis, wouldn't apply in this case, as it is an axanthic morph. However, this is still one killer looking female, and who knows.... maybe you'll get lucky.

[Manitoban Herps]

Sorry about burg, he/she was an awesome ball :)

[Bristen]

Originally posted by Invictus
Yeah, it looks like the "burgundy" morph, as defined by Davis, wouldn't apply in this case, as it is an axanthic morph. However, this is still one killer looking female, and who knows.... maybe you'll get lucky.

actually, if check this link out:
http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/matrix/traits/burgundy.asp

I think you'll see that the text there is actually from Vin Russo (Cutting Edge Herp).. the picture there is also from Vin's proven line of burgundy's.. it's interesting that his look axanthic as babies and then later the black browns out.. I have no idea if the Ralph Davis preven burgundy's are like that also.. Only time will tell if anything will happen with this one... waiting is just so painful sometimes :-(

Later,
Bristen.

[BoidKeeper]

Trevor: You're a funny character my friend
I thought you'd like that.

case of beer says at the very least you'll admit she’s not normal if you see her in person.
Please my blood type is Molson. Like Tim said I'd lie to the Pope for beer.
I'll see her soon enough though. I think I tripe to Bristen's is in order.
Cheers,
Trevor

[smeagel]

Killer looking girl. Hope she proves out for you, even if she doesn't you have a great looking female there. I would love to have one that looks like that.

[Markus Jayne]

She is a very nice burgandy indeed!

I would breed her to a co-dom. Perhaps a pastel. Even a Spider or Mojave would be nice. That way you could still work on the Burg project and hopefully create sometime new along the way.

Good luck!

Mark

[lostwithin]

Ron, When I purchased her 7 years ago she was already adult, and that guy told me she was about 3, so nobody knows what she looked like as a hatchling, from what I have read they start out that color then brown out. So the only way to know for sure is to breed her back to a male offspring and prove it out.

Mark, I agree completely if proving her out why not use a male with co-dominant trait, and get a head start at producing something new

Devon

[Bristen]

Originally posted by Markus Jayne
She is a very nice burgandy indeed!

I would breed her to a co-dom. Perhaps a pastel. Even a Spider or Mojave would be nice. That way you could still work on the Burg project and hopefully create sometime new along the way.

Good luck!

Mark

Thanks Mark!! We will be throwing my 2002 Pastel at her... we're hoping for pastels het-burgundy in 2005!

Thanks for the suggestion!
Bristen.

[TheMan]

There's a couple WC "Burgandys" on Kingsnake and they are selling them for $1000 pair.

[lostwithin]

Ha ha, I was building suspense to let people wonder what I was breeding her with, But You had to go and tell them didn’t you, lol. But she will be paired up with Bristin’s Nice 2002 pastel; I’m very excited about the project. Who knows what we might end up with next year?

The man, I picked my female up years ago, before anyone had ever heard of a burgundy lets say I got her for a steal. Basically just got lucky, there were 3 adults at the guys place when I got her, 2 females and a male, I liked the way she looked over the other 2, apparently I had good tastes lol.

Devon

[Bristen]

Originally posted by TheMan
There's a couple WC "Burgandys" on Kingsnake and they are selling them for $1000 pair.

since they are wild caught, I guess that would be a resonable amount.. the issue with those is they may not prove as genetic, and they may take years to breed ... the Devon's female already eat well (her size is a good testimony to that) and could very likely produce something this year...

Thanks for the note!
Bristen.

[Bristen]

Originally posted by lostwithin
Ha ha, I was building suspense to let people wonder what I was breeding her with, But You had to go and tell them didn’t you, lol. But she will be paired up with Bristin’s Nice 2002 pastel; I’m very excited about the project. Who knows what we might end up with next year?[...]

oups.. I had no idea it was supposed to be a secret :)

[lostwithin]

Rather then start a new thread I though I would just dust this one off. We finally probed the Burgundy and she turns out to be a nice sized 2579g male, and he is far from over weight just BIG, yet again I prove the fact that you cant trust that something is female based on size I never had her probed as I never involved him in breeding, I assumed the previous owner was correct about the sex due to the large size. But I was proven wrong by a probing today; on the up side it is a VERY dominant male and should make a good breeder. He’s aggressive to the presence of other males, and apparently is trying his best to get to a female, but it throws a wrench in this years plans as I don’t have any females to breed him to. Just thought I world update everyone.

Devon

[BoidKeeper]

Tuff break man. Bristen is going to sex two for me that I'm interested in buying. I just hope I have better luck. Well look at it this way if you want CBB females for him between Bristen and I there will be lots of them in NB this season. That's doesn't make you feel better does it?
Cheers,
Trevor

[lostwithin]

Ha I’ll keep that in mind, it was a big blow to this years’ plans, but it’s not a total disaster. It will just take a bit longer to prove out, and with him being such a large and aggressive breeder I would need fairly large females to pair him with. I'll have to keep an eye out for them. Just like everyone else, I need BIG girls though, you haven’t seen this guy but he makes most balls I have seen look small.

Devon

[Tim_Cranwill]

Tough break! :(

Oh well, now you can get 2 or 3 clutches out of him next year. That will mean lots of "hets" for sale! ;) :D

[Bristen]

yup Tim, that's the upside of things.. you can produce a lot more hets the first year.. the only issue now is WHERE or WHERE can you find good adult sized female Ball Pythons.. it's probably easier to dig a hole in the back yard and find a diamond mine than to find female ball pythons for sale... they are not easy to find whatsoever... All part of the fun I guess :-)