Pine Shavings

[beanersmysav]

When I was at the show a majority of the people I asked what the reccomended for bedding for my corns listed pine shaving as a possibility. However as I've done more and more research I find Pine Shavings are toxic. Is this true? For the time being I've removed the shavings. I feed them in a seperate container so theres no chance of the ingesting the shavings anyways, but has anyone else successfully kept their snake on pine shavings without any bad effects. I'm going to be looking for aspen shavings for the time being, but I bought a huge bag of pine so I'd like to use it unless of course its toxic.

[vanderkm]

Any aromatic wood has the potential to have volatile compounds that off gas from it and that may cause problems for snakes. Cedar is widely reported to be harmful to snakes, but some snake breeders have kept cornsnakes on kiln dried pine shavings through multiple generations without any reported problems. Apparently kiln drying reduces the chance of problems.

In my opinion, aspen is well established to be safe and even though I don't think it is as absorbant as pine, when we use wood shavings, we use aspen. I prefer Carefresh type wood products when snakes are in tubs with belly heat, but for our corns that are in tanks with overhead heat, the Carefresh seems too drying, so we use aspen.

mary v.

[Invictus]

The problem with sooftwoods is not the gases, but rather the resins themselves. Cedar contains a high amount of phenol resin, which is what gives it the aromatic smell, desireable in log cabins and fireplaces for us human folk. Pine is also a softwood, but the kiln drying dries up the phenol resins, which are the toxic constituent. I'd say use caution - Aspen is hardwood, and contains no resins. Pine MAY or MAY NOT - it's a risk. If it has a very distinct "wood smell", don't use it. If it has a dusty smell to it, it may be ok... but really, why risk it?

[beanersmysav]

My thoughts exactly

[vanderkm]

Ah right Ken - resin not vapors!! Knew it was something that the conifer type trees had in their wood. Either way - best to be safe not sorry.

mary v.

[Stockwell]

I wonder why pine snakes aren't extinct.. :) They live in the shed needles which are full of stinky resin
I've kept snakes on pine shavings , the same type I keep mice on.
I read all this stuff about pine but wonder if any real research has been done. I've certainly raised and bred snakes on it with no problem.. I currenly have some snakes on Alpha chip which is also a pine chip lab bedding. They reproduced this year, and I have seen no problems.
I generally agree with the better safe than sorry philosophy for most pet keepers, but I really wonder about some of the common things herpers are now terrified of.
I think I might actually have to try raising a corn snake on cedar next year, just to see whether there is any truth to all these reports of toxic effects.
Is there anyone out there that has actually tried keeping snakes on cedar, or has heard any first hand negative reports.... I think I might have kept snakes on cedar many years ago but I can't remember.
One thing that I am positive of is that I kept my entire collection on what is known as "western bark" which is sequoia and redwood, both conifers... It always smelled great in the herp room, and I used this substrate exclusively all through the late 80's and 90's. I produced thousands of snakes on that substrate. I only stopped using it because it got expensive and brings in flies.

[Jeff_Favelle]

They live in the shed needles which are full of stinky resin

Compare the air flow/air exchange to the great outdoors and to a bin in your rack and you'll know why, LOL!

[Linds]

Originally posted by Stockwell

I read all this stuff about pine but wonder if any real research has been done.

I'll see if I can find it. I recall reading a paper in the past that involved lab results. If I remember correctly, the subjects (rats and mice) exhibited altered size and weight of certain organs as well as decreased liver function.

I ran a quick search through google and found a few things. Of course they relate to rodents, as no labs seem particularily interested in the effects of reptiles (since they are so different from people). I think most scientific testing on reptiles and amphibians is generally ecological/environmental effects, and even then, I still have not heard of any actual testing, but rather surveys of animals collected over certain areas. Maybe someone else can shed better light on that.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=6833829&dopt=Abstract

I also know that I have observed differences in rats when going from a bedding containing no phenol to one containing phenol, and vice versa. I've had animals begin wheezing and/or sneezing and/or developing crust around the nose. Many 'pet' breeders have noticed extended lifespans in their animals once having switched from pine as well. While it is a minor threat in small doses and can be expelled from the liver (as is half the things we use on a daily basis), phenol can be absorbed through skin, and I'm confident that prolonged exposure would have some adverse results.

Now I know it isn't reptiles, but if it affects mammals in such a way, I wouldn't be willing to risk it. Even if the differences aren't huge, maybe I could get slightly larger litters, or a few extra years out of my animals?

[Stockwell]

hummm..thanks Linds.. you know if cedar is so bad for mammals I wonder why it is still so widely sold for pet rodents?? I think every Walmart in North America sells Cedar shavings in the small animal department, and yes, you can smell it from 4 isles away.
And come to think of it, cedar is used to keep moths out of clothing in closets isn't it... that's rather interesting
Cedar is expensive as well as endangered, so I wonder where the Cedar shavings thing started and what keeps it going. I imagine humans buy it because it smells nice, but you would think it would be harmful to us as well.
Maybe this is some conspiracy to sell more hamsters, because they die quicker but how come the humane-iacs aren't all over them if that's the case? And don't labs still keep rodents on Pine??

[Tim_Cranwill]

Originally posted by Stockwell
humane-iacs

That's a clever name. I like it! LOL :D

[Scales Zoo]

We've always used pine shavings. The brand we have smells a lot less "piny" than some I've smelled.

The thing with things like this is, how are we to know how harmful it is for our snakes. Maybe they'll only live to be 15, instead of 20. I know a few people that have kept the same snakes on pine for 20 plus years, and those snakes are still living.

How many years does bleach residue take off their lives? What about regular nix treatments? Until we've kept the same snakes for 12-15 years, do we know that all of our methods are all 100% safe.

Ryan

[Invictus]

Roy - When I worked at the evil pet store, a guy brought in a boa constrictor that hadn't held down a meal since he brought it home. He had it in a small container, and as soon as I opened it, the smell of cedar wafted out, and I knew right away what the problem was. He removed the cedar shavings from the boa's enclosure and put it on paper towel for a week, then fed him again. It did seem to fix the problem.

As for pine, I do kind of agree with you though.... I think pine just got 'lumped in' with cedar because they are both softwood. But certainly a lot of people have kept snakes on pine with no apparent problems.

[Manitoban Herps]

I have used pine for some of my snakes and they haven't had problems, mine too doesn't have much of a scent..

[Jeff_Favelle]

hummm..thanks Linds.. you know if cedar is so bad for mammals I wonder why it is still so widely sold for pet rodents??



Easy. It works against smell. People that know nothing, nor CARE to know nothing about the animals don't worry about the phenols and extractives. It kills the smell and they LOVE that aspect. So that's why cedar chips sell well. Why did hot rocks sell so well in the 70's and 80's? They sucked and killed animals. But they looked cool and were dead easy to set up.

Cedar is expensive as well as endangered, so I wonder where the Cedar shavings thing started and what keeps it going.

Ha ha not picking on ya Unkie, but the cedar used in cedar chips for small animals is NOT a true cedar. It is either a Thuja (Thuja plicata aka western Red-cedar) or a Yellow-cedar (note the hyphen, which indicates its not a true cedar) which is in the genus Chamaecyparis.


NONE of these are true cedars (genus Cedrus, yet they all, along with Junipers have the most toxic phenols and extractives.


I have used pine for some of my snakes and they haven't had problems

I know people that have smoked for 40 years yet they are fine. Does that make smoking a good thing? Just because it HASN'T happened, doesn't mean it WON'T.

[Jeff_Favelle]

We've always used pine shavings. The brand we have smells a lot less "piny" than some I've smelled.

The thing with things like this is, how are we to know how harmful it is for our snakes. Maybe they'll only live to be 15, instead of 20. I know a few people that have kept the same snakes on pine for 20 plus years, and those snakes are still living.


This is one I don't understand at all. So you have a material, that you aren't sure does any harm, but that you aren't sure is good either? And MANY suitable alternatives exist. So given the choice between a SAFE alternative, and a material that "we aren't sure if its harmful", the choice for the "maybe bad, maybe good" material is made?

I don't get it. I'm not preaching, but if there was a product that was "maybe harmful" and a product that was not harmful, I'd just choose the safe route and leave questionable stuff alone. I could see if there was no alternatives or choices, sure. But there is.

To each their own, just my thoughts, and no one else's.

[beanersmysav]

I feel the same as I've said with the better safe than sorry, these are my first two snakes and I'd love to see them live a good 20 years, and I'm not willing to lose them at a young age.

I haven't lost a lizard ever, I know it's inevitable that I will, but if I do it's not going to be because I didn't fix something I could have. The pine I've got doesn't really smell like much at all and I bought it pre bagged at the reptile show in White Plains for like 1.00 from someone who was selling corn snakes, milk snakes, and boas.

so I'm sure they probably use it as well, however for the sake of safety I'm going to get Aspen bedding. But who knows maybe in 10 years people will find out that's bad for them too, you never know with things like this, one year microwave popcorn is perfectly safe, the next it causes cancer.

[Scales Zoo]

Like I said, I've known people to keep their snakes on it for 20 years, it can't take more than 1 or 2 years off their life.

There are many things that can take years off a snakes life, breeding a 2 year old female for one, can take 10 years off a snakes life.

I've seen no good reason to not use the pine shavings I am using.

Ryan

[Manitoban Herps]

Yes Jeff, but people can say they used rubbermaids for there snakes without problems, doesn't mean rubbermaids are good to use for your snakes.

[Scales Zoo]

Actually Jeff, I have meant to give Aspen a go at it. I can never get the stuff when in Calgary.

I may be going there more often, and will pick a couple of bails of it up, to give it a shot. I'm probably just trying to justify pine, cause that is all I've gotten. I still beleive my pine is fine!

Ryan

[Invictus]

Ryan, let me know when you're here, I'll direct you to the Petsmart where I got my 5 cubic foot bag of Aspen for $18.

[marisa]

"doesn't mean rubbermaids are good to use for your snakes."

There is also nothing that says they are BAD for snakes. So please don't start the rubbermaid debate as there is nothing for either side to point at for their arguments except that living in rubbermaids snakes still eat, breed and thrive.

Marisa

[Scales Zoo]

Oh, and Jeff, about the 2 year old female breeding comment, and the past things I've said about powerfeeding snakes and the years it takes off the snake.....

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle

To each their own, just my thoughts, and no one else's.

:) smiley faces all around

Ryan

[Will]

Hey Ken, how is the Aspen down there...? I buy the Kaytee stuff from that chain here in Edmonton(I assume it's the same stuff in Calgary) and found that the last couple of bales I've picked up were pretty(actually, REALLY) dusty. I just got another bag, but haven't had to open it yet, so maybe it was just a couple of bad batches...?

As for the pine thing, I tried a small bag in a few tubs, "just to see", and found that everytime I stirred up the shavings while cleaning, I always ended up sneezing. That 'experiment' lasted all of a week.

[Invictus]

Will, the Kaytee stuff is exactly what I buy. It is dusty, yes... so I give it a VERY light misting when I put it into the cage to keep the dust down.

[crossley]

Ah yes ,the age old debate about good substrates to use with snakes. This debate has been going on since ppl starting keeping snakes and will probably continue until our sun goes nova.To quote Carl Kauffeld from"Snakes:the Keeper and the Kept",1969,"The matter of proper floor covering for the cage is a seemingly simple matter which,nevertheless,can be a source of trouble and end in complete failure to keep the snake healthy." Today we have many more choices of substrate then in Kauffeld's time and yet the debate still continues.This is because there is no perfect substrate,they all have their pros and cons. I've been keeping snakes for sometime now and have experimented with a wide selection of different substrates. Right now all my colubrids are on Betachip ,which I am quite happy with. Species requiring high humidity are on cypress mulch and specimens in the bigger cages are on newspaper. I have used pine shavings extensively in the past and have never experienced any problems as long as they haven't been dusty. I have personal experience with dusty shavings causing respiratory problems. Cedar I have always avoided,probably because of the phenol issue,which Kauffeld always maintained should be avoided like "grim death". Anyway a good substrate is one that works for the keeper and that allows the animals to thrive and be healthy. If anyone ever comes up with the "perfect" substrate they will be exalted as a god or goddess of herpetoculture [and will probably make alot of money] . Regards Grant A.

[Cookie]

Some people make the mistake of feeding there snakes while the snake lay in pine shavings... THIS IS A NO NO!!!!!!!!! most times the snake ingests some of those shavings while feeding and the wood gets caught in the throat or intestines and the snake dies. Most cases it's begginers that make this huge mistake. If you keep the enclosure simple i would use paper towels and not newspaper or those green carpets as they may stain the snakes belly, and if you make the enclosure more like a home i would use wood bark sold at any petshop and maybe some fake plants and a stick or driftwood for your snake to climb ..... I would stay away from the pine as there is no need for it..... Don't forget to add a hide for your snake and a heat source

[Cookie]

Reference to the rubbermaid comment : I would rather live in a well ventilated 100 liter rubbermaid then a 10 gallon aquarium! I have seen snakes die because of the pine shavings Never seen one die from a rubbermaid. I am not much on rubbermaids at home for my snakes as i like to see them all the time but when i need to use one i don't hesitate, some snakes i would think feel more secure in a rubbermaid then an aquarium as they feel less threat not seeing everything that passes it by or comes to close.... I have a rat snake that actualy hit the glass of the aquarium so much when we pass it damaged it's face and the only way we could get it to heal was to put it in a non clear rubbermaid where it could not see us and stopped the strikes..... That snake has now tame down and is back in a 55 gallon

[beanersmysav]

I don't feed my snakes in their enclosure anyways. I take them out, put them in a tall dark box with the mouse already in there, and they always strike it with in seconds. When I check on them 20 minutes later the mouse is gone, and they're ready to go back home.

[D J N]

I always like newspapper or papper towel cuz there is no worry about pheonls.

[dannyc]

I'm new to snakes but after reading all the posts on bedding I thought I'd put my 2 cents worth in. I live in central VA and been dealing with The Pet & Aquatic Warehouse in Lynchburg VA. I got 2 corns from them and most of my supplies. I'm using a product called Reptile Bark and it's 100% Fir. It's triple cleaned to eliminate sticks and dust. Also is obsorbent to hold moisture. I'm no expert but so far it seems to work great. They say it can even be cleaned and re-used. I don't know if I'm going to do that but it is an option since it's a little expensive.