What would you want to see?

[Gary D.]

As was brought up on another thread a while ago, it can take a lot to impress the average to advanced herper due to the huge scope of herps now available to the hobby. Sure we may only be only 1% or less of the total visitors, but what kinds of animals would the average herper appreciate seeing in the smaller private zoos?

And of course within reason. Tuatara and Gavials aren't really possibilities for the Bronx zoo.

Gary D.

[Katt]

Personally, a really kick butt display cage makes any species look awesome. Well researched habitat with habitat specific plants can make even a lowly corn look like a Rein Snake.

For me, hard to acquire and hard to raise species like 100 flowers would impress me. As you are well aware, boids and their morphs do nothing to impress me. Any Joe Blow can buy one with enough money.

[Linds]

I agree with Katt. It isn't fancy smancy morphs that would impress me, but rather some of the less seen and kept *natural* specimens. Of course having some of the everyday stuff as well, but all of it should be properly set up. That is one thing that would definitely impress me. A properly researched habitat would be most impressive, as it is so rarely encountered.

[varanus69]

fiji island iguanas, new zealand green geckos,red mountain racers (coxi) this kind of stuff would get my attention and keep me coming back....but also very detailed and natural enclosures...

[CamHanna]

Buttermilk Racers!!! I think it'd be great to put an especially active snake (like a racer) in a larger terrarium and watch it prowl. IMO buttermilks are the prettiest ones and they aren't seen often. They're the second snake on my 'wish list'. The first is the western fox snake (or eastern if they were legal here). I don't know if foxes would have crowd apeal though.

Psuedelaphe flavirufa are really cool snakes and I have a great time watching mine. They are nocternal though and spend alot of the day hiding. They don't really come out until after peak zoo hours are over.

Boiga sp. are also great snakes and dendrophila would be a big hit because of the colours. Same with ETB, GTP and those red asian rat snakes, I don't remember the species at the moment but one ssp. is coxi.

Also a big snake that can be handled by the occasional average visiter. Perhaps a BIG bull.

I like everything North American, especially the more obscure stuff (Rhinochielus, Farancia, Seminatrix, Regina, Nerodia clarki, T. sirtalis tetratania...). Farancia a huge personal favorite but is giving me some trouble.

I like Paleosuchus and cuban crocs.

Tuataras are nice as well.

Edit: I definitely agree on the Figi Island iguanas. I also like Gopher/Crawfish frogs and Ornate Chorus frogs. A big snapper and some diamond back terripans would be neat.

[marisa]

One thing I don't often notice at zoos is simple Green Iguanas.

If you could have the space, a large realistic enclosure with a harmen (say a big male and a few females) of green iguanas would really catch my attention.

Marisa

[Gary D.]

Come on, there should more opinions out there than that.

Personally I would like a wide variety of less than common animals which attempts to demonstrate the diversity of the world's herpetofauna. More interesting than WOW! But perhaps that's just me.

More input please people.

GD

[Tim_Cranwill]

For me, a variety of healthy, good-looking animals set up in attractive displays (not so dense that you'll never see the snake though). I would also like to see a map of the continent they are native to with their range highlighted, possibly pics of color/pattern variations and a little write-up about the species... maybe 3 or 4 sentences.

As for particular species, just a good variety in size, color and body type would suit me fine. They don't have to be the rarest species in the world but not exclusively the most common either (the problem with the local Zoo here). There's nothing wrong with displaying a common corn. They are attractive and even come across as being exotic looking to the general public.... and remember, that IS 95% of your audience/market. :)

[Scales Zoo]

But Tim, Gary was asking what you'd want to see as an experienced herper.

I set up our collection more for the 99% of people who find reptiles interesting, not for the 1% (or less) who keep 40 snakes at home.

Now, what I would like to see at a big fancy reptile zoo when I visited one.

Something really rare that is being bred. Appendix 1 boas, Indian pythons (i know), and/or some species of tortoises.

I'd like to see wart snakes and kraits. Crocodile monitors, perentie monitors, lace monitors, komodo's, blue tree monitors.

A lot of the real rare things, are rare because they are hard to keep (like the wart snakes).

Cool turtles, like a mata mata, a snake neck and a softshell - or something like that. a 250 lb alligator snapping turtle.

I like Tim's map idea, and have been planning to use it for a while. Still getting around to that one, hehe. I also think a display with a GTP beside an ETB, explaining convergent evolution from different continents, would be cool - but again, I'm thinking of the general public, not the 1%.

Sheila would like to see boeleni (and so would I, but not at our collection :) )

It is a hard question to answer, a lot of the stuff we really like, we keep.

[Jeff Hathaway]

Well this is a great thread for me to read! It would be hard for me to say what would impress me. I've seen a lot. I think I'd agree with others in that what impresses me is how well something is set up, regardless of how rare, etc. it is. And what really impresses me is good interpretation- not just a little map and 3 lines of text.

Of course, I'm planning to incorporate these things into our own facility. And when we eventually open, there will be iguanas for Marisa, and eastern fox snakes, bulls, and probably a racer for Cam! Not to mention, all of the turtles of Ontario, most of the other snakes of Ontario, and a few other exotics including prehensile-tailed skinks, indigo snakes and dart frogs.

Suggestions are always welcome, too...

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[Tim_Cranwill]

Yeah, I know Ryan. :D I am just not hard to please, I guess. :p

I would like to see basically anything. To tell you the truth, I would be more interested in seeing a nice, healthy normal corn than a wart snake though. It's looks for me, not rare-ness that makes something cool. Just nice looking snakes in nice looking enclosures. I <b>loved</b> seeing your snakes on display at the past 3 RD shows even though I've seen some of them (particular animals or species) in person several times and seen DOZENS of pics. That plain old retic was cooler to look at for me than the blackhead (personally speaking). The blackhead is a BEAUTIFUL animal and one I would cut off my left leg to own but the retic has the wow factor that draws people in. I was amazed to see it. So it doesn't have to be rare for me to enjoy it.

Also, I would say that snakes with different characteristics would make for a nice zoo. Snakes that are arboreal, terrestrial, burrowing and etc each in their little niche. Bright snakes, dull snakes, big snakes, small snakes, skinny snakes and fat snakes, snakes from all 6 continents (the 6 that have snakes) a few pythons, a few boas, a few hots and 50 different colubrids would float my boat just fine. :)

[Gary D.]

Geez 50 different colubrids. Myself not being a big fan of colubrids is my achilles heel. I have to do some serious work on that aspect of my collection. So much easier to get unusual lizard species.

Gary D.

[marisa]

The thing with colubrids is that IMHO they make far better display animal than a python or a boa in most cases, as they are very active and come in so many shapes and sizes.

Marisa

[Scales Zoo]

Some people have different thoughts about what zoos are. There are big zoos breeding panda bears, and petting zoos.

What all zoos should have in common, is a primary goal of educating the public in a beneficial way. The animals are possibly secondary.

Elvira, has converted many snake haters and people who are afraid of snakes. Who'd have suggested an albino burm, not I...

A large zoo with a big diversity of reptiles, with some really cool eveolutionary traits (snake neck turtle, mata mata, frilled dragon, large monitors, tiny geckos, many different kinds of chameleons, leaf tailed geckos, other reptiles that camoflauge amazingly well, some that don't camoflauge at, convergent evolution shown and explained, arboreal, terrestrial, fossoril's compared etc.. etc...) The important thing is the way it is portrayed to the public however, and not necessarily the animals themselves.

Interactiveness and Written Information are some of the best ways for people to learn, and for you to teach them - which is the whole goal, In my opinion.

And big assed pythons!!! Very cool, public loves to see them.

Looks like I went off track again, sorry.

Ryan

[Jeff_Favelle]

A GIANT desert display tank with Collared Lizards running around like little T-Rex's. That would absolutely ROCK.

[Ontario_herper]

Jeff do you plan on housing any crocodilians? Caimans perhaps?

[wetlander]

For experienced herpers I would want to see a collection that attracts visitors for 2 reasons.
1) a collecton of species that are rarely kept such as a wide assortment of Australian venomnous snakes. Very few people keep hots and even fewer have an Australian collection. Add to that some large monitors and smaller crocs such as Chinese Alligators.
2) a collection of rare (read as so rare the only way a collector could get one would land them in jail or with outrageous fines) species kept in very natural conditions in a captive breeding program.

These would keep me coming back since it would be the only way I could see these species and my admission fees would be supporting a breeding program.

Doug

[CamHanna]

Thought of a few more I forgot to mention

- Brahminy Blind snakes (interesting because of evolution and reproduction[perhaps housed in an ant farm type set up])
- Glass Lizard, Legless Lizard, Slow Worm or something like that (as a parrelel to the blinds)
- I like the ETB/GTP idea
- something about speciation (perhaps a few different rosies)
- Melanistic garters, incorporating Mendel’s genetics
- Slowinski's corns, they'd likely be dead weight for bringing in a crowd but it would be nice to have someone breeding them
- Also hellbenders or even those huge Oriental salamanders

As mentioned, elaborate setups are interesting and I'd say that good interpretations are a necessity.

[Gary D.]

Hellbenders would be cool but brutal to setup as they require running water. I suppose with a large enough pump and a large filter resevoir. A 5'x10' flowing stream with under water viewing would be a kick butt display.

[Scales Zoo]

Gary did ask what kind of reptiles, the average reptile person would get a kick out of seeing at a reptile zoo.

Boiga irregularis would be an interesting species, we've all heard about them and Guam, but who's ever seen one in person...

Other things I think would be neat to see.

2 headed snakes. Live preferably, but in a jar would be better than nothing.

Scaleless snakes.

Native Canadian species, and / or species native to the area.

Rhino rats, indigos, tiger rats, 100 flower, bamboo rats, mandarins - gold star for breeding any of these.

Cool Reptile related museum artifacts, like skeletons, replica skulls, dinosaur and reptile fossils etc..

Very large water monitor, very large crocodile, gila monsters, caecilian's.

My favorite venomous (to look at behind glass) are king cobras, albino monacled cobras, rhino vipers, gaboons, cerestes, rattlesnakes, black mamba's, green mamba's, mangroves....

Ryan

[Gary D.]

Thinking about it colubrids wouldn't be too bad, even for me. 3 or 4 interesting snakes from each of 6 continental regions, and your half way to 50. It's the really juicy ones that might take a bit of searching, like Madagascan Vines, tentacled snakes, or white headed snakes.

[Jeff Hathaway]

No crocodilians, Dave! No alligator snappers, either, and no venomous snakes beyond massasaugas and possibly timbers or westerns.

Our collection will continue to focus on: Ontario species, other Canadian species, appropriate pets vs. inappropriate pets, and selected conservation or biological items or issues. I've considered the ETB/GTP convergent evolution example but decided not to allocate the space to it. Might use some other example though.

Hey Cam, we'll have melanistic garters, too. I think corns are more useful for Mendelian genetics, though. No hellbenders, but mudpuppies instead.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[hhw]

Monitor lizards in naturalistic setups would definitely be great to see; both small and large varieties.

As a hobbyist though, I'm not so geared on seeing species that I wouldn't be able to buy with some effort so much as seeing particularly nice specimens. Of course, I would expect to see a lot of species that aren't offered in pet stores. An ETB/GTP would definitely be great to see side by side.

With that said, perhaps something that a zoo could have that a hobbyist wouldn't is some indigenous species that's rarely seen.

I for one live in BC yet have never seen a rubber boa despite hundreds of hours searching for them in my youth. A rubber boa would also be interesting due to the tail that doubles as a fake head educational example.

[Katt]

ok, Calabar burrowing python!!

Definitely. I liked the one we had and I would love to see another.

[Scales Zoo]

I think I will do a GTP / ETB side by side, with notes on convergant evolution, since a few have said they liked the idea too.

Jeff, when are you planning to open the doors? Have you decided what to call it yet?

Ryan

[Thrush]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Scales Zoo
[B]I think I will do a GTP / ETB side by side, with notes on convergant evolution, since a few have said they liked the idea too.

Yup, I really like that idea. And what about CHAMELEONS! They are some of the coolest looking reptiles around. I'd love to see large vivariums with some of the more unusual larger species, and maybe some really colourful panthers, just because! The setup could be spectacular if carefully done.

[Gary D.]

You know, as cool as Calabar burrowing pythons are, the Loxocemus kicks it's butt. Thanks for passing on her for me and thanx to Nyx for letting me have her :)

And Chameleons are definately a must.

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/1506DSC02481-med.JPG

GD

[Jeff Hathaway]

Ryan, we're still not sure when we'll actually open. Lots to do yet. Structural work is largely complete now, but we're really only just getting started on enclosures. I'm hoping for opening to groups by appointment next fall, and then to the general public in 2006. Depends on how time and money allow our renovation schedule to progress. Scales Nature Park is still our working title, though we're open to changes. I'm considering having a 'naming contest' to see if anyone can come up with anything better, since I haven't been able to.

hhw- we'll have one monitor enclosure, likely for a black roughneck. I hope to have rubber boas in the collection, but I doubt they'd be very useful as a display- they're so secretive no one would ever see them. Better to use them as a hands-on specimen, I think.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[nyx]

Originally posted by Gary D.
[B]You know, as cool as Calabar burrowing pythons are, the Loxocemus kicks it's butt. Thanks for passing on her for me and thanx to Nyx for letting me have her :)


Glad you like her. I kinda miss her already. :)

[Scales Zoo]

Originally posted by Jeff Hathaway
Scales Nature Park is still our working title, though we're open to changes.

I had not realized you already picked a name, that's a pretty "catchy" name.

Ryan

[Jeff Hathaway]

Catchy, no doubt. We didn't actually copy it from you, though. If you recall, we discussed this by email several years ago when you first opened Scales Zoo, about our plans for 'Scales Nature Centre', which has now become 'Scales Nature Park'.

We like it because it covers not only reptiles, but fish, which we will also be featuring. Fish of Ontario, that is...

I thought you would have seen the pics already, but if you haven't, check out www.scisnake.com/scales.html for more details. Of course, everything on there is at least a year out of date- lots more has been done now. Hopefully I'll get some new pics up this winter...

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[BoidKeeper]

Yeah I like the name scales too. Too bad it's TAKEN!lol
Cheers,
Trevor

[Scales Zoo]

Jeff, I don't want to sidetrack Gary's thread - I read those emails from September 2001 earlier today, and see that I told you it was a bad idea and would lead to confusion. I guess I should have been more direct, and less polite. Things have changed in that time.

Ryan

Edited to add - I can't beleive you could register that name as business in Canada. I'll email you.

[BoidKeeper]

Just trying to play devils advocate here. If I opened a coffee shop and called it Star Cups. What do you think would happen?
Cheers,
Trevor

[rwg]

What makes my jaw drop are rare, large, or colorfull colubrids. Diurnals would be better than nocturnals for obvious reasons. Tiger rats, bamboo rats, red-tailed greens, beauties, leopard rats, etc. I agree about Australian elapids. That'd be VERY cool. Also like to see a gi-normous king cobra.

Black roughnecks are about the coolest monitor after komodos. Crocodile monitor, blue, green, or black tree monitors. Hmm...what else?

How about a large sulawesi retic in once cage, and maybe a super-dwarf next door to show variation.

Of course every native species obtainable should be on display for educational purposes.

Roy

[Scales Zoo]

I like your list RWG - I like it a lot!!

We had black roughnecks, a very large one was Sheilas favorite monitor, and will be getting more next year hopefully. A black roughneck beside a dumerils monitor, would be really cool to see also.

Ryan

[Gary D.]

Not to derail my thread either, but although I love the name Reptile Gardens, and despite being in another nation entirely, I still will take my own name. Even if the nation is large, the reptile community isn't. I think you can probably come up with something that demonstrates what you want it to and still be unique.


Black Rough neck would be cool, I've now got one dumerili.

[Katt]

Hehehe, no worries Gary, a species like that should be in a zoo, not stuck in a cage where no one gets to see her.

[Scales Zoo]

Ignore everything I said - a healthy happy collection of reptiles kicks *** - no matter how diverse or fancy they are.

At the majority of reptile collections, be it stationary or mobile, that i have seen, there are always reptiles I view as skinny, or for some other reason feel bad for.

Vern Ruml in Winnipeg had the happiest and healthiest reptiles on public display, and we've always strived to do just that - show the public really healthy, happy, beautiful reptiles.

Ryan

[Jeff Hathaway]

Ryan,

Perhaps it's worth a thread of its own, though I doubt it myself... I don't see that anything has changed; I do recall the discussion and your concern about confusion- I just disagreed with it. Sure, a certain amount of confusion could occur amongst the online herp community, but that is a pretty small segment of the Canadian marketplace. I'm not particularly worried about the online community; as was discussed in the reptile world thread, the target market is very different. I'm concerned with attracting the northbound cottage-type tourist traffic, and to accomplish that I need a name that is short, easy to remember, lends itself well to a url, and gets across what people can see and do here.

And like I said, I'm always open to suggestions. I have spent some time on it, Gary, and haven't come up with anything that works better yet. Keep in mind that not that long ago, there was a Reptile World in Windsor, ON, and a Reptile World in Drumheller, at the same time. I don't recall any significant confusion nor any other issues that arose from this exact duplication of the name.

Trevor, what would happen if you chose Star Cups would depend on the situation. In that case, you're close to the name of a national franchise, which would be different than if, for example, I had a pet store named 'Scales and Tails' in Ontario, and you decided to open 'Scales and Tails' in NB. In the latter case, it actually happens a fair bit, and nothing results from it.

Beyond this issue, great thread, Gary! I'm particularly glad to see that people are listing at least some animals that will be (or already are) amongst our collection.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[Scales Zoo]

Sorry, Gary....

Jeff, I know your wife liked the name SCALES, and I sympathize - we like it too.

We started using SCALES (Serpent Conseratory And Lizard Empoium of Saskatchewan), officially, back in January of 2000 - almost 5 years ago, as Scales Canada. In the later half of 2001, we had it changed to Scales Zoo. At that time, the word scales was not used in any reptile company in North America - and I thanked Sheila for being good at words and names.

I'm not gonna be nasty about the name, but I think it is in your best interest to hold that contest to pick a name for your place.

Ryan

[Grant vg]

Scales Zoo is god!

[Minnow]

Kinda reminds me of a Recipe place called KopyKat.

Carol

[Scales Zoo]

Thanks for not using a capital G, G!

Thanks mang!

Ryan

[leo_gexx]

Ok so after I open a zoo with the nam,e scales maybe I will open up a coffee shop with the name timmie herkins , lol Give me a break . There is more than one name that can be used for a reptile zoo.

Gary sorry to draw away from the initial post , interesting would be a Komodo , tuatara , or a real nice display of agamids. There is a lizard that gets so little attention , you want colubrids go to any ones home .Sometimes being unique doesn't have to cost large money. Someone mentioned glass skinks , they aren't expensive or common would be a boring display though they really don't do much. For the record , public likes to see bright green animals. Prettier the better , mind you an eyelash viper would turn anyones head.

[JD@reptiles]

Personally. when i go to a reptile zoo, i hope to see somthing that i dont see in pet stores. such as hots, crocodilians and endangered species. But you also have to have animals that will get non herpers interested. like common boa constrictors, anacondas and other well known animals...

[Manitoban Herps]

I would want to see a display in every zoo, about there native reptiles and amphibians, for example Northern Prairie SKinks are only found in a small area of Manitoba, and no where else in Canada, they only survive here do to the protected wild grass prairies.

I only once caught one of these guys and would love to see some displays of rare, hard to find reptiles and there habitats.