Setting up a vivarium

[Black_Panther]

I would like to turn my 50gal. long into a vivarium for my brown anole along with some green anoles, long tail grass lizards, green or grey tree frogs, and maybe some house geckos or day geckos. I only have one problem: I have no idea how to set up a vivarium. I don't know what kind of plants would be best or where to put them; do I still need a heat lamp, or would an undertank heater and just UV lights work; what kind of substrate to use; you name it. If anybody could help me out, it would be greatly appreciated!!!

[Ptindy]

Me neither haha. I have set one up for my upcoming Uroplatus Phantasticus, check out the Enclosure Showcase forum. Also, under the Natural Vivaria you can find a plant list of safe plants. My substrate that I have in my vivarium I added play sand to, I've been suggested to do this by many people as it helps in water drainage. Feel free to PM about any specific questions about my vivarium and I'll try to help you out the best I can.

Mike

[king nick]

this is one of the sites I i refered to when i built my 1st vivarium

http://www.vivariumconcepts.com/

NICK

[peterm15]

http://home.earthlink.net/~kenuy/falsebot.htm

its a great site i found

http://home.earthlink.net/~kenuy/vivarpage.htm

thats for the home page... its a great site

[HeatherRose]

Are you planning to mix all of these species together? Keeping so many different species in such a confined space isn't the greatest idea...

All of the lizards you mentioned are from different corners of the planet. Day geckos are from Madagascar, long tailed grass lizards are from Asia, and anoles are found in Florida, Cuba, and some Caribbean islands, liek Jamaica.

Not only are these all from very different environments, but each kind of reptile carries it's own 'bugs' or bacteria. Some of the species could get territorial, or get sick, and then you wouldn't know which one is sick if they're all together.

It's really up to you in the end, everyone has different opinions on this...

Some other options are a vivarium full of dart frogs or some kind of gecko if you really are looking for something like that...

Good luck.

[Double J]

Keep in mind... you generally SHOULD keep only one species in a vivarium. These "pretty little" multi-species tanks at pet shops do not work! These animals generally die within a few months from New world syndrome, that is bacterial exchange between animals from different contintents, and these bacteria which are non-lethal and under control inside their normal hosts (for example a greeen anole), but thrive inside their new hosts and kill them (something like a day gecko for example). If you want to have one or more vivaria, it will be much easier, and much more rewarding to stick to a single species. Good luck and feel free to ask more questions.


I have posted a link outlining species mixing disasters. Most people thnk twice about mixing after taking a gander at this page.

http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/Mixing_disasters.shtml

[Black_Panther]

Yeah, I know; I was only considering it because someone who seemed to know his herps suggested it to me. I know there's some pretty bad combinations out there; one friend of mine once told me of a petshop who put little geckos or some such lizard in with a pacman frog (those guys will attack anything that moves--and they have a bad bite!!). All the lizards were gone by then, though--and I have a very nasty feeling that they were eaten. Pet shops can pretty darn stupid when it comes to combinations sometimes. So, as it is, I think I will stick to anoles only.

[Double J]

I still wouldn't do the mix your friend suggested. It will fail in the long run.

Stick to one species and you will get a lot more out of it.

Keep us posted with your choices.

Good luck

[Black_Panther]

yep; like I say, I'll be sticking to anoles only. I might have to wait quite a while before I get any, though; my petshop only sells pretty big ones, and if I put one of those things in with my little baby one, he'd probably get eaten.

Question, though: the links posted above are for poison arrow frogs, not anoles; I need to know what sort of vivarium setup would suit anoles best, not frogs.

[Double J]

For anoles, I would just go a little warmer, with better ventilation (a little dryer). Otherwise, the environments are not terribly different in a vivarium setting. Lots of live plants, and these animals will thrive.

[zero&stich]

you generally SHOULD keep only one species in a vivarium. These "pretty little" multi-species tanks at pet shops do not work!

I slightly disagree on this only because I've kept 1 male Anole and 3 house geckos in a 10g. The geckos kept laying eggs all over the place. All four species did wonderful, until I had to break down their tank(moving unexpected) and find homes for them.

On the flip side, ya you did get some bad advice Panther. Not your fault though. You were just trying to get info and ya found a yutz. Day Geckos adverage larger than an anole and the two species have different humidity and heat requirements.

If your reconcidering anoles, I would take up the idea on the darts. So many species and from what I've heard and seen some the species of CB poison darts, the colors could blow your mind away. The patterns to. Very cool and an underated species to keep for amphibians.

Also, I am personally a fan of the "half land, half water" senario where you can house submersable and terestrial(sp?) 'phibians. Possiably some small fish, 'pending how long and deep you decide the tank you want to keep. And of corse if the fish are compatiable. I saw a 40L with this type of setup with firebelly toads/salamanders, paddle tail newts, mudskipper, albino axolotal(baby), snails, and 1 small Archer fish. Also it was heavly planted. Looked nice and interesting to watch since so many things were all goin on at once.

If not limiting yourself, other ideas would be a desert vivaria, housing possiable herps? Such as Beardies, Clown Agamas, maybe collards ect.. I admit I am not up-to-date on lizards so maybe someone here can help you more on desert vivarias better than I can.

[Kyle Barker]

it sorta depends on teh route you want to go with it. i find those false bottom tanks with ponds really fun to make and do up. for me planting tanks have become almost more important than teh addition of animals. they both accent each other and i find animals to such tanks are more decor for the plant and "ecosystem" than tha plants are for the animals. obviously you have to take the animals needs, in green/brown anoles case pretty straight forward, into account. i would just use whatever lighting you are going to use for the animals and add a couple 24" or smomthing for the plants.

ive been doing ltos of experimenting with decomposers instead of fertilizers lately but sometimes i do cheap and ive found a great organic fert that i have used from time to time in gecko cages. RainGrow is the name, its only 4-2-3.

as for plants and dirt. dirt is straight forward. i would use somethign that can breath and stays fairly fluffy. ie not a clay based or sand based dirt. i like to use coco earth mixed with the soil from outside and mix leaves/moss in with it. if you use real soil the addition of earthwomss does wonders. just read up on plants thing about their light/moisture levels. i liek looking at "hilly" vivariums. meaning not level. have mounds of dirt and trenches that allows for bogy type plants and slightly drier plants to grow toegether.

some good high light plants that i like to use are- ficus, scheflera (can grow in pretty dark places too, but i liek the forest canopy look it gives), palms, fruits (like mangos, avacados, pairs, grapes etc) oi dont know there are thousands of possibilities. and everyone is going to have a different opinion of what looks good. just look at dart frog websites and jot down some plant names you liek the looks of and go look into them a bit.

id liek to see some pics when ya get somthing going. anoles are one of my favorite lizards to watch in vivariums. them and geckos are top in my book.

[Double J]

Originally posted by zero&stich
I slightly disagree on this only because I've kept 1 male Anole and 3 house geckos in a 10g. The geckos kept laying eggs all over the place. All four species did wonderful, until I had to break down their tank(moving unexpected) and find homes for them.

On the flip side, ya you did get some bad advice Panther. Not your fault though. You were just trying to get info and ya found a yutz. Day Geckos adverage larger than an anole and the two species have different humidity and heat requirements.

(snip)

Also, I am personally a fan of the "half land, half water" senario where you can house submersable and terestrial(sp?) 'phibians. Possiably some small fish, 'pending how long and deep you decide the tank you want to keep. And of corse if the fish are compatiable. I saw a 40L with this type of setup with firebelly toads/salamanders, paddle tail newts, mudskipper, albino axolotal(baby), snails, and 1 small Archer fish. Also it was heavly planted. Looked nice and interesting to watch since so many things were all goin on at once.


This happy little half land half water tank mentioned in the quoted post will fail miserably, I guarantee it. Below are a few of the many reasons that stick out like a sore thumb....

1)There are two types of fish that prefer brackish water... those being the mudskippers and the archers. This presents two problems:
a) There are aquatic amphibians such as the axolotl and the paddle tailed newts. These animals are fresh water animals and WILL NOT tolerate brackish water, and will die if housed in it.
b) IF the tank is amphibian friendly and is actually fresh water, these fish will very likely be stressed and not fare well.
2) Axolotls get severerly stressed if they are kept in warm water. The recommended water temps for this speceis in in the 60's , and many keepers find it necessary to cool these animals to around 54 degrees in the early spring to induce reproduction. These animals are very susceptible to Saproneglia infections if kept at temps in the 70's...... and I guarantee that the archer fish prefer to be kept in the mid to high 70's.... so bye bye axolotls.
3) The paddle tailed newts also prefer temps in the 60's though they can tolerate temps in the low 70's seasonally. Still, housing these with archer fish????? Warning bells still go off. Somethng will die.
4)axolotls are extremely aggressive feeders, and will likely tear off whatever limbs get in their way as they put on size.
5) Again, paddle tailed newts are incredibly aggressive as well, and will likely end up biting a few limbs off of the fire belly toads, or whatever else they get ahold of.
6) In their stress, and even in an unstressed state, the fire bellied toads do secrete toxins that will surely kill the axolotl and the fish within a few weeks or months. Amphibians like this can tox other species out... I suspect the paddle tailed newts will do this in this setup as well.
7) In the setup in question, we have animals that represent a number of countries and continents.... here is a quick rundown:

Archer Fish:South America (Amazonia)
Mudskipper: India (Mangroves)
Axolotl: Mexico (Lake Xochimilco)
Fire Belly Toad: Korea, Vietnam
Paddle Tailed Newts : China

Here we have a plethora of species representing 3 CONTINENTS and at least 5 countries. This is simply asking for a case of New World Syndrome: That which is essentially having different animals from different parts of the world together. The gut bacteria normally found in each respective species is tolerated by that species. These bacteria then migrate from one species to another in fairly large numbers..... and the new host animals cannot cope with these new gut microbes and often die of infection.

8) This tank is ONLY 40 LITRES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is barely 20 GALLONS!!!!!!!Even if this tank was 40 gallons, the tank is WAY TOO SMALL for a multi-species setup, and there are way too many animals in it!!!!!


Case in point, this tank, and any other like it is DOOMED to fail... and the animals are the ones who are going to suffer for the ignorance of their keepers. It is simply not prudent, unwise, and incredibly irresponsible to suggest a setup like the one above to a novice keeper. That said, I am not completely against mixed tanks if *they are done PROPERLY!!!* Even then, they often encounter tons of problems that are unforseen. Many keepers have enough problems keeping one species alive in one tank....... throwing 4 more species in there does not help them out whatsoever. Just because petstore xyz puts together something like this does not mean it will work. Sure, they may keep the animals alive for the two or three weeks they are in the store, but beyond that, something is bound to happen for the negative. Don't forget, that petstores do have many herps and fish in their care die.... but they are not going to tell you that. And when people claim they have had mixed tanks work for "a long time with no problems...." I have to ask myself (and them) how long is a long time? Two months, eight months?? This is not a long enough time frame to judge success by any means. On occasion, someone will come forward and claim that they had a goofy setup like this "that worked" for x number of years with "no problems." I will guarantee you that they got lucky, and for one tank like this to luck out, about a thousand other people have tried it and failed miserably reslting in nothing but frustration, wasted money, and dead animals. Then they will often attribute any deaths they had to something nonsensical like "a bad batch of crickets."
And in closing, I do firmly disagree with 99.99% of multi-species tanks. Even zoos make big mistakes.
People should make thier lives (and their pets lives) easier by sticking to one species per tank. Period. They will enjoy their animals much more that way, and will be far more successful in the long run.

For those of you who missed it earlier, here is a link to some species mixing disasters. Reading it has made countless people smarter.

http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/Mixing_disasters.shtml