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View Full Version : This is a new one for me.... twin cresties


DragnDrop
11-14-04, 02:10 PM
This is a new one for me.... twin cresties hatched late Friday night. Unfortunately, it's not all good news.
One clutch, two perfectly good looking eggs in the delicup, 3 cresties hatched. Two were walking around, the 3rd just had his nose out the egg.

One gecko is normal size, perfectly formed, hopping around like any crestie hatchling.
This is the 'single' crestie with a Canadian Twoonie for scale.

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/511/321ocronpn.jpg

The picture isn't too great, the little sucker wouldn't sit still, so I had to settle for a slightly out of focus picture. You can get an idea of how big he is even though he's not sitting on the twoonie.


The other egg had the twins, only one this one survived.

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/511/321cronpn2bkhd.jpg

The arrow is pointing to one of two lumps on his skull, the other one is just behind it and smaller. This gaffer is about half the size of a normal crestie, but is acting normal in every way. He's licked some mango and water off a spoon, he moves around and jumps, licks his eyes and walks around like nothing's strange about him. I have no idea what the lumps on his skull will lead to, but for now he's 'normal'.

The other twin hatched with what I think was only a partially formed skull, there seemed to be a gap on the top of the skull, covered with skin, in the same place the other twin has the lumps. It was obvious he wasn't in good shape when I found him, he barely stuck his nose out of the egg. I saw the skull problem right off, and he didn't move a muscle when I put him in the deli-cup that would have been his ICU, he stayed curled up. At first I thought he was dead, but his tail twitched when I touched it, so he was alive. I'd put the other two into individual critter keepers, maybe took 20 minutes at most, and when I got back to the problem twin, I noticed there was a swelling in the gap where his skull didn't close up. Instead of a dip, it was now raised. His tail had been moved a bit from where I remembered it, so he had some muscle control, or at least some reflex action which suggested his nervous system was developed down the length of the spine. I phoned a vet tech friend for some ideas, but we couldn't think of anything to do for him this late at night, not likely any way I could get him any medical aid. By the time I got off the phone, he'd been out of the egg for at most an hour, and was dead. However, the lump on his skull had expanded, the skin popped open, like his head exploded. For obvious reasons I didn't take pictures.

So, my questions are.... does anyone have a clue or guess what might have gone on with him? Any guesses what would make his skull/brain explode? Has anyone else had twin cresties?

This is my first set of crestie twins that at least made it to hatching. The same mom has produced 4 other eggs with one gecko and an odd mass of something that resembled a half-formed gecko. I've had twin anoles hatch (perfectly healthy) years ago.

Some more pictures of the surviving twin.

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/511/321cronpn.jpg

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/511/321cronlfpn-med.jpg

Rebecca
11-14-04, 03:15 PM
It could just be me but is it possible that the one that lived somehow had the bone grown on it instead of the other one?? I'm not sure on how they develop, like if the bone deveolps and then skin type thing it could be possible. Just a thought, I don't know the stages of developing in embyros.

Painted Desert
11-14-04, 06:14 PM
I'm rambling out loud here.... well, human babies are born with a "soft spot" in the middle of the head, the skull doesn't close for 18 months or so... this allows for the rapid development in brain size. Seems to me I’ve seen a good 3D animation of a gecko skull somewhere, but i don't remember if it showed "suture" lines or the indication that a gecko skull is composed in segments... I'm thinking it's entirely possible a similar "soft spot" exists in cresties... and the more "preemie" the baby is... the greater the open area of the skull, the bones simply have not had a chance to move into position.... either way, from your description, it certainly sounds like the poor baby was experiencing a rapid increase in intracranial pressure, doesn't it? Now, how would this relate to the hatching event itself? The mechanism of air exchange has been altered, I’m interested how this affects (if at all) intracranial pressures...not much help, eh?

CDN-Cresties
11-14-04, 06:25 PM
Congrats on those that hatched, Poor little crestie who didn't make it. I have no clue what would have caused that horrible death but I doubt cresties have a "soft spot." Please provide an update if you find any new info.

Removed_2815
11-14-04, 06:46 PM
First, a clarification: I believe fontanels in human babies (there are six of them; two are especially prominent) function mainly to permit such large brained organisms to pass through the birth canal (the head can actually deform and compress to allow passage). The secondary purpose of fontanels is to allow rapid brain-growth in the first 18 months of life.
Here's my attempt at some extemporaneous thinking on the gecko situation...
The pressure theory is interesting but I see no reason why there would be any difference between atmospheric pressure outside the egg, and pressure within the cranial cavity of the ill-fated gecko.
I would suggest that what you witnessed was a rapid septic infection that caused the tissue to rupture. You can see this in humans with various staphylococcus infections that start out as little pustules filled with rapidly multiplying bacteria. Sometimes within only an hour this can rupture (explode). Most reptile keepers have observed similar bacterial explosions when leaving an f/t pink mouse out at room temperature for any length of time. I have seen an f/t pink mouse swell, turn ghastly colours, and rupture within the span of two hours or less. So, again, I would surmise that this is what you saw. With such a dramatic change in such a small amount of time, something biotic has to be responsible and it is almost certainly some type of microorganism (nothing to be concerned about, it's just the natural decomposition of dead tissue).
Cheers,
Ryan

Painted Desert
11-14-04, 06:48 PM
Several articles on gecko skull kinesis... but no mention of an open or "soft" spot in hatchling/adult skull formation.... they certainly do lack stability though!
As in all gekkotans (see also Hemitheconyx and Coleonyx), the postorbital and upper temporal bars are absent, permitting extensive kinesis (metakinesis, mesokinesis, streptostyly), at least in young animals
http://www.digimorph.org/specimens/Nephrurus_levis/

Here is the article on kinesis www.uia.ac.be/u/aherrel/pdfs/Herrel_et_al_2000_J_Exp_Biol_b.pdf

Tim and Julie B
11-14-04, 07:12 PM
Perhaps they were at one point "connected" inside the egg at the skull, which may explain the lack of bone on one and the two tiny bumps on the other. May be a possibility. That little guy is quite tiny, but otherwise seems outwardly healthy. Too bad about the other.:(

Julie

sara
11-14-04, 08:26 PM
I have seen premature hatchlings before... I had an inexperienced aquaintence slit two eggs at 70 days because they were getting anxious... the hatchlings looked exactly like yours, but obviously they were still attached to a fairly large yolk. When I heard about it I went over to see them immediately. They had motor reflexes for about 12-20 hours, as well as the "soft spot" in the middle of their heads you described. This spot also swelled over the day and a bit they were alive, then expanded rapidly after the hatchlings stopped responding to stimuli.
The only thing I can think of for your case would be a lack of resources within the egg to support two fully developed cresteds, that might have ******** their development... which could explain why they were physically simmilar to premies.
Anyway, that's a tough situation... but keep in mind it's also an excellent learning experience. Good luck, I hope the little guy turns out ok... if not you could always ship it out to Betty for some TLC. ;)

sara
11-14-04, 08:30 PM
lol, I guess I can't use the "r" word, even in that context... so whoever reads that, just substitute "delayed" in the awkward space.

DragnDrop
11-14-04, 09:27 PM
Thanks for all the input, it's all starting to make sense now.

When I saw they'd hatched, it had been about 12 hours since I last checked the eggs. The two survivors were quite active already, tried to escape, which made me think they had hatched a few hours earlier. Assuming that's right, then there's a chance the one that didn't make it might have died at hatching and been dead for a few hours already.
Using the info you've supplied, I'm thinking that the little sucker wasn't even alive when I found him. His tail moved, but it could have been reflex action, similar to a detached tail jerking around for a while. If he was dead, then Linda's and Ryan's theory of inter-cranial pressure and decomposition would explain the skull expansion nicely. Sara's experience would seem to back up all this info as well. I guess he might not even have 'hatched', being dead. he could have fallen out or gotten dragged out of the egg when the sibling crawled out. Once out of the confines of the egg, the pressure buildup inside the skull was free to do it's thing.

The surviving twin is doing great, licked some water for me earlier, and took another lick of mango, but wiped it off with almost a gasp of disgust :) At least he's a gutsy little sucker, already opinionated. It looks like the lump on his skull might even be smaller, but maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part. I'll check again tomorrow when there's some decent daylight. Just looking at him, he looks small, but a fighter.

sara
11-15-04, 11:57 PM
Hey Hilde, I forgot to ask, were the twins identical physically or did they differ in size, colour, pattern etc.? I guess i'm just curious... I had a female lay 3 eggs in one go a while back... so it would be interesting to figure out what type of twins yours are.

DragnDrop
11-16-04, 10:47 AM
The twins were pretty close to identical. I only had a few minutes to look them over and compare but they were both really close in size too. My original idea was to get the other two in their homes and then take pictures. By the time I got to that point, I'd noticed the swelling on the head was increasing, so the picture session was put on hold. And of course, I wasn't about to record the final scene with pictures.

If there is such a thing as identical twins in geckos, they sure looked close enough in size, colour and pattern.