The Impaction Issue.

[HeatherRose]

Hey guys...

If a species' natural environment is on sand, and they live and eat on sand in the wild, what is the issue with keeping a sand-dwelling species on sand?

Can I have everyone's personal takes on and experiences with sand impaction? I always see posters flamed and fussed over when they say they keep animals on sand, always told what 'could' and 'would' happen. How many people have actually seen impaction in their or another individual's animals?

I'm completely neutral on the subject, as I understand intestinal compaction but also wonder how animals fend for themselves in the wild if this is the case, living and evolving for thousands of years on sand :p I, particularly, do not have any animals on sand but then again, I do not keep any desert-dwelling animals.

Discuss...this'll be interesting http://www.pitbullforum.com/images/smiles/emote214.gif

[Big_V]

Ive keep leopard geckos for years on sand. Though its best to start them off on newspaper. Ive never had one become impacted of the sand and ive seen them take some giant mouth fulls of it. Ive also keep beardies (though not anymore) on sand no problems there either. I think it has to do more with them being the right age before you put them on sand jsut to be precautious.
As for evolution, they of course should have no problems living on sand as this is their natural habitat. Its just that people would rather be cautious with their investments and pets IMO.
And that little smiley dude eating popcorn is awesome. LOL

[Manitoban Herps]

I keep all three of my leopard geckos on sand, and my pair of eastern collard lizards on sand as well.

I have had no problems ever, and the leos have been on the sand for a couple years. I haven't seen my leopard lick or eat the sand once, I do provide a calcium didh though.

[CanadianJackson]

I keep my helmeted geckos and western collard lizards on sand. Never had a problem, though I've only had the helmeteds for a couple weeks.

[mudflats]

Never had an issue with sand either..for lizards, i think its more of an issue with snakes.

[Siretsap]

We have tried quite a few substrats for our leopard geckos. And among all of them, there would always be one that would ingest some of the substrat and pass them in their cells. We ended up keeping all of them on news paper (it's ugly) but very quick to clean.

We keep our beardies and uromastix on sand. Never had a problem (baby beardies are kept on paper towel substrat till they are sold).

So from my experience I can say that it all depends on each of the specimens. Not all leopard geckos will act the same on substrate as no beardie or uromastix will all act the same.

On a side note, often when you see a lizard ingesting sand or earth often, it may be a sign of mineral or calcium lack in their system. We put a little bit of calcium and vitamins in a cup once in a while to let the leo's lick it up.

[wetlander]

Never had an issue with sand either..for lizards, i think its more of an issue with snakes.

Although this may be more of issue with snakes, it would make sense that snakes living on sand would have no problem if the same applies for lizards. Most of us keep snakes or feed snakes on substrates that our snakes cannot consume i.e. paper, but if a snake lives in a forest it would only make sense that while eating it would consume bark, wood chips, leaves, pebbles...all kinds of non digestable stuff. So the same question applies to other substrates such as coconut or reptibark. Is impaction a real concern or are we just being over cautious to ensure our wonderful herps won't be injured?

[DragnDrop]

Normally they get all the necessary nutrients from their food. If some minerals are lacking, they go looking for them in other places. Calcium is the most common missing nutrient, and is available in the soil. Instinctively they go looking for it there, eating soil/sand/substrate. The trouble is that when they do start eating substrate, they're in pretty bad shape.

Take calcium as an example, work with only this one, then you can apply it to all the other minerals (vitamins are obtained from food, not substrate). Normal healthy (even wild ones are healthy) properly nourished geckos don't eat substrate, they have a good amount of stored calcium for normal day-to-day living and would expect to get more from their diet. A good variety of food in the wild guarantees they'll get what they need. In captivity they should be getting a good diet too, or enough supplements so they don't have to go looking for more in other places. They do ingest odd substrate particles accidentally with their prey or while tasting/licking/sensing the presence of others. What the normal healthy ones don't do is eat it by the mouthful, or even meal size portions. Those mouthfuls are the troublemakers. Small amounts can be passed under normal circumstances, but not if eaten by the bucket full. Our captives can easily be missing calcium and other minerals. The supplements we use, no matter how good a brand, can and probably do miss out on some minerals, or maybe just don't have enough. Most cases of substrate eating seem to be geckos who don't get proper supplementation -- they either get none, just an 'el cheapo' brand that's got nothing worthwhile, or not enough of some/many/all the important minerals. Generally speaking, the most common victims of impaction from substrate are growing juveniles and hatchlings or breeding females. Very few adult males eat substrate, they don't need as many minerals and even those only in smaller quantities. So the young and breeding females go looking for the missing mineral. If they're after calcium, the detect it in the calcium sand and go hog-wild eating it. Even with silica or quart based sand, they'll still eat it because instinct has taught them that calcium is in the soil.... maybe not concentrated, but if you eat enough of it you'll get calcium. Desperate measures, but it's better than nothing.


If you want to keep them on a substrate they encounter in nature, you have to make sure they're supplemented the way nature intended, otherwise they'll take matters into their own hands and go looking for it in a natural way ... eating sand/soil.

What it all boils down to is that any soil/sand/substrate eating gecko is most likely desperate to get the missing mineral(s). There's always a screwball in the crowd who'll eat anything, and I'm sure there's a leo here and there that does eat substrate 'for the fun of it' (I ate a cup of sand and all I got to show for it was a tummy ache :) ). They don't naturally eat soil as part of their diet. If they were meant to, they'd probably have evolved into worms. ;)

[Will]

Personally, I've had no problem with it. I only have a single Beardie though. He was on carpet the first year, and then course play-sand from then on. He's fed out of a deep ceramic bowl to keep the food in and sand out. It looks nice, easy to clean, cheap, etc. But again, that's one animal, not much to base an argument on...

[HeatherRose]

There's always a screwball in the crowd who'll eat anything, and I'm sure there's a leo here and there that does eat substrate 'for the fun of it' (I ate a cup of sand and all I got to show for it was a tummy ache ).

Why do I get the idea that the majority of this group of people are composed of herpers? :p

[~nessa~]

hi, i did have a leo but he died.....i only had him 4 month.

i went back to the place i got him from to say i was worried about him (he was not eating and i was sure he was eating sand..only lots) i took him with me and they were not intrested. They made me feel stupid for worrying about him......well i took him home and a few weeks later he was really ill...i took him to another person who owned a shop near by...he took a look at him ten mins later he said he had become impacted....he died that night.

i did provide calcium and vitamins ...a few weeks ago i went back to the place i bought him, i told them he died, they just shrugged it off and walked off. i dont go there no more!!!!!

i now have one BTS and two berbers. the berbers are on calci sand and doing great..(touch wood)

[peterm15]

i havent had a prob with my leos... not licking sand or anything.. the ocasional accidental while feeding... but to be safe i keep them on the digestable stuff... i dont offer them a cal dish( i did they never touched it so now i dont) i dust every feeding alternating between cal and multi... i use the cheaper one ( multi???) all the time and the cal every two or three feedings... a breeder and a vet looked at them examined for a while and said there extreemly healthy... so im just gonna keep doing what im doing... i think it has more to do with play sand or moist clumpy sand than the stuff made for reps

[RepTylE]

No matter how well we setup our animals, they are still confined and I believe that even animals like leopard geckos for instance get a little neurotic in captivity and develop habits and quirks from time to time.
You ever see a polar bear at the zoo pace back in forth and see the ground worn down where it is moving around? That indicates a neurotic behaviour from being confined. It's just my opinion but I think that maybe the ingestion of substrate might not always be a dietary problem. The fact that some instances of ingestion occured even when proper supplentation procedures are followed supports this to certain extent.
It's up to the person keeping the animals to decide whether they want to take the risk but I am certainly not prepared to do that.

[Linds]

I prefer to avoid sand in most instances. Even animals that naturally are found in sandy areas (such as sandboas), experience some problems (such as sand abrasions, causing them to be dull all over). Also, it is next to impossible to replicate an animal's natural environment in captivity, so certain alternations need to be made in order to ensure the best possible environment. Bascially, I feel just because an animal may naturally encounter sand, doesn't mean it is necessarily the best thing in captivity. This isn't to say that it has no use in captivity, as it most certainly can be used in some instances.

Originally posted by Big_V

As for evolution, they of course should have no problems living on sand as this is their natural habitat.

Leos do not naturally come from sandy areas. Desert doesn't necessarily mean sand, it is used to describe any area in which there is little rainfall, sparse vegitation, and extreme temperatures. A lot of these places have hard ground, rocks, etc. Many people make the mistake of assuming if it is a desert animal, it must come from areas covered in loose sand, when this isn't often the case.

Originally posted by DragnDrop
There's always a screwball in the crowd who'll eat anything...

LOL much like our friend KC... worst thing I recall was the time he ate 9 pennies and a beer cap (folded in half) for $14 and change - all in nickels and quarters and other small change :rolleyes:

[Siretsap]

While they do hide in rocky areas, leopard geckos will still hunt on the sand. So most of their movement is made on sand, when they are hiding in the rocks is when they are hiding during day time.

[RepTylE]

I think that Linds meant (correct me if I'm wrong) that the sand might be more compacted and not like the looser sand like in a dune with alot of gravel and stones. I think alot of people think dune type of terrain when they think about deserts. By definition on a precipitation basis, the Canadian tundra is a desert area not sure how many dunes they have around there. I'm guessing they would be rare.

[Linds]

Exactly what RepTylE said :)

[seddleman]

We got our son a beardie that was approx 6 months old and it had been kept on sand.They told us to use calci sand so I did.He became impacted.After the vet got him cleaned out,he had to be fed with a syringe as he would not eat.This led to a calcium deficiency.Then he broke his leg wehn he fell about 1 inch off of something he laid on in the basking area.It was (of course) a very bad break and since I knew nothing about this, they talked me into putting a pin in it.From then on, even when he would get where he would eat on his own, we had to feed him by syringe to keep him as healthy as he would get.He did well for a few months,but then the vet ( a different one by then) put him on liquid calcium.A few weeks ago,he died.I think he lived about a year after the broken leg and we had him almost 1 1/2 yrs.I would have had him put to sleep,but the vet had told me the signs to look for, and he didn't show any of them before he died.
We now have another beardie and I just keep a plain glass bottom.I tried paper towels with her, but she loves to attack them and bite them. LOL She is doing great!We had gotten a baby beardie a few weeks ago when we got my sons emerald swift.The baby only lived a few days and I tried to tell the store that I got it from that something was wrong with her, but they blamed it on me.I definitely will not be getting anything from that store again!!At this store and in some of the care sheets I have read, it told me to put the swift on sand too.Thanks to this board, I now know not to do that.
Well, I got a little off track (sorry) but the last vet ( the good one) said that the entire problem started with the sand.

[marisa]

There is also a big differance between encountering sand in the wild, even on a daily basis, and being forced to live directly on it day in and day out 24 hours per day.

In any given habitat you'll find all kinds of substrates, not just one. I believe problems arise when we force an animal to spend 100% of its life on one type of iffy substrate such as sand, or even in some cases things like eco earth etc.

We simply cannot create nature in our homes in most cases, which means turning to the safest alternatives....paper etc.

Marisa

[clint545]

I first started my adult leos out on calci-sand and found that their feces would often have a "coating"of sand. I immediatly changed my subsrate and after about a week their feces were back to normal.
About 5 years ago I had another leo that died from impaction. It was from a corn cob bedding that I found to be absolute garbage. Haven't seen it on the market since.
I keep my Helmeted geckos on sand and so far no problems!

[coldblooded]

I recently switched to dirt for my savvy. "Black Earth" to be exact. A friend keeps his savvy on play sand and has done so with no problems *so far*, but it doesn't look like a winning combo.

He has to basically hand feed it to keep the rats from being covered in sand though.

The grains of play sand are too big and are very sharp and I think they could potentially harm the little herps and the big ones too.

The calcium carbonate sand is really fine though, isn't it. Shouldn't cause too much of a problem.

As for bark, wood chips, coco husk, ect., I have watched my little one mow back crickets and bark chips at the same time and and spit out the wood. S/he eats the dirt though.

I hate newspaper (I know it's cheap) but I don't know how, or why, anything might ingest it. Do people use shredded newsprint?

I'm still waiting to see if any problems arise from the eating of dirt.

I, personally, have not had any impaction problems (the herps) and hope I never have to find out that newspaper is the "best" (which it's not) substrate.


Good morning,

Mike

[coldblooded]

Might I add that a guy at the pet store near me said that Savannah Monitors "come from a sandy area" and "sand should be fine".
When I asked him about the ingestion of sand with food stuffs he said plainly: "It's O.K., they eat plenty of sand in the wild". Impaction was the last thing I should worry about, I was told.

I didn't feel it was safe using sand, so I used chips, now soil.

I could be wrong.

Mike

[Joses Hut]

With permission, I have been able to gather a few pictures for you to show the effects of sand on a Bearded Dragon's system. I am not here to say whether sand is good or bad, but rather to show these pictures and draw your own conclusion.

Picture 1: A 5 month old dragon and a system flush. The jar shows what came from his system.

http://www3.telus.net/public/storm866/My_Homepage_Files/IMG_1167.jpg

Here are the owner comments: BY THE WAY, SHE IS A VERY EXPERIENCED HERP OWNER AND VETERINARIAN. "I bought this little girl from a reputable breeder who uses playsand. Having seen a lot of problems with sand, I asked a veterinary surgeon who specializes in disorders of the bowels to do an epigastric lavage. This is a procedure where pressurized gases, enzymatic cleaners and sterile saline are forced through the digestive system to loosen up anything clinging to the structures inside the bowels. The effluent is collected, dehydrated and analyzed.

That vial is roughly 10% sand, the rest of the bulk is the enzymes from the cleaner, undigested food, feces, and bile salts which all tends to collect together.

This girl would probably have lived for 3 to 5 years before starvation killed her."

Picture 2: Where sand was built up in the bowel and impacted and food and feces could not pass through.

http://www3.telus.net/public/storm866/My_Homepage_Files/IMG_1168.jpg

Picture 3: Where the bowel got so enlarged it was actually turning black and dying.

http://www3.telus.net/public/storm866/My_Homepage_Files/IMG_1169.jpg

This is also a good article on a trial done on CalciSands. It's a good read.

Article (http://pythons.com/calcium.html)

The really tough thing about sand is there are 2 kinds of impaction. An acute impaction is when a clump totally blocks off the bowel and causes sudden death and Chronic impaction happens on a grain-by-grain basis as sand accumulates in the gut. Weight loss and death are the only symptoms of a chronic impaction and it’s the third most common cause of death in bearded dragons, behind fatty liver disease and parasites. Most owners don’t know their dragon has a chronic impaction until their animal is starving to death because there’s too much sand in the gut to allow them to absorb nutrients.

Finer sands are less likely to form a clump and block off the intestines totally, which is called an acute impaction. However, they are far more likely to stick to the intestinal walls and interfere with nutrient absorption. Most animals do not suddenly die from being kept on sand, they slowly starve to death over a period of several years. It’s only after they die and the owner brings the dragon in for necropsy that they usually find out there was an ongoing chonic impaction of sand.

In an acute impaction where a clump of something blocks off the bowels you will find a bloated animal that isn’t pooping. When you feel the belly you can usually (but not always) feel a hard spot or lump. In cases with a chronic impaction, it happens so slowly over time that most animals are dead and a necropsy is the first indicator of what went wrong. Weighing your animals at least once a month to pick up gradual weight loss can help you detect it more quickly but it’s not an exact science. Internal organs tend to be highly resilient for as long as they can, but once a condition reaches a critical point they fail very quickly. Sometimes there isn’t much weight loss before they die.

Again, I am not recommending one substrate over the other. I think every animal, be it a bearded dragon, snake, or gecko etc. should be given the best possible life in captivity as possible. I don't think these articles and pictures should be used as "scare tactic's" either. I just wanted to show what I have collected over the last little while and thought I would share. We have made the choice not to use any substrates other than carpet or papertowel, but again, OUR CHOICE.

I hope you enjoyed the pictures and articles and hope they help with the discussion on substrates and impaction.

Sean & Laura
Jose's Hut