Bateater - Step 1

[anaconda]

These 2 have been together for 2 weeks, and last night I caught them in the act. Male is a 10 foot Sulewasi retic, and female is a 10 foot Burmese. From what I have read, Borneo Bateaters are very difficult to achieve, but at least step 1 has begun. Ron.


http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/2424SIMG0770-med.jpg

[CARLiTO_]

Not to sound stupid but aren't they different species?

Is this the same as breeding a bci to a bcc?

[BoidsUnlimited]

Yeah same species....and dumb.

Why the hell would you want to mix such wonderful species....

[Bartman]

Yeah same species....and dumb.

Why the hell would you want to mix such wonderful species

I totally agree, and personally do not like hybrids but this goes on all the time and its going to happen either way. If he wants to do it, then let him..know what I mean?

[Toshi]

I think that it is exciting. I would like to attempt to produce bateaters someday. IMO, bateaters are some of the most breathtaking snakes around.

[mudflats]

Can never be happy with the species, always want something more. One glance at the animal, nice chunk of money. Then its onto another species to dirty up. Disgusting

[BoidsUnlimited]

QUOTE]Originally posted by Bartman
I totally agree, and personally do not like hybrids but this goes on all the time and its going to happen either way. If he wants to do it, then let him..know what I mean? [/QUOTE]

Of course he will, hes making money. If I could stop it, trust me, I would.




Originally posted by mudflats
Can never be happy with the species, always want something more. One glance at the animal, nice chunk of money. Then its onto another species to dirty up. Disgusting

It is quite disgusting isnt it?

[Jayson]

If it was not for hybridizing and Inbreeding we would not have all of these different breeds of dogs and cats that people love so much.

Why do so many people on here think everyone should share their views and opinions. If you dont like them, dont buy them!!

[BoidsUnlimited]

Originally posted by Jayson
If it was not for hybridizing and Inbreeding we would not have all of these different breeds of dogs and cats that people love so much.

Why do so many people on here think everyone should share their views and opinions. If you dont like them, dont buy them!!

Are you KIDDING me!!!!!

Did you seriously just say if it werent for INBREEDING!

I'm sure youd apprecaite it if you were stuck with your parents just to please someone for a new species!

Total bull..........

[meltingfetus]

i love bat eaters. maybe hes not doing it for the money. i always wanted 1

[BoidsUnlimited]

Maybe, maybe not......

This is my last post here anyways!

LATER

[mudflats]

Even if he is not doing it for money, which is usually why anyone would produce a damned hybrid. He would still have extras to need to sell. But back to this not for money, if you want to see one look online for photographs, plenty out there..Other then that why would there be a need for breeding, uh, mone

[marisa]

Maybe we can just all enjoy the photo and his efforts instead of bringing in the hybrid debate.

There is a thread on ssnakess.com that you all can include your thoughts on.

Anaconda.....nice photo....I am sure you are well aware the herp community sometimes has strong feelings towards hybrids, and when your babies are born you will label them properly and make sure they are never sold off as pure animals to the best of your ability. Good luck.

Marisa

[Jayson]

BoidsUnlimited

You with albino retic in your avitar knocking Inbreeding

Do you have clue at all??

[Big_V]

Good luck on the bateatres. They are amazing looking snakes. I love how people take this as a crime against them and that you hybridizing YOUR snakes is wrong. What ever happened to choice to do as one pleases. Best of luck Anaconda and keep us updated.

[Siretsap]

you can always check on nerd's webcite. They have a few pics, and I am pretty sure if you ask them, they will help you out to the best of their knoledge on it.

[djc3674]

Congrats on step 1. Bateaters kick a$$, I hope ya get some.

[Cham911]

Hope it works out for you......

and....don't they just have the COOLEST F-IN NAME!

<Rob stops high fiving everyone around him....realizes...there is noone>

[JimmyDavid]

I feel sorry for those folks who are against hybrid herps. How limited the hobby is for them...future surprises are zero and the hype is, now and forever, as good as it will ever get.

Go for it Anaconda.

[lostwithin]

JimmyDavid, the hobby is FAR from limited without hybrids, there are more species available out there then any one person could ever own. Species that are amazing and unique without our tampering. Problem is sometime it’s easier (or cheaper) just to cross the more common animals what we have to "make something different" then it is to acquire unique or rare species.

Anaconda, good luck with your project I may not agree 100% with it, but everyone has different opinions “bateaters” like other hybrids can be very attractive snakes. And thanks for sharing the pic. And please be sure to label the babies properly as hybrids when you sell them, and do so to people who should be responsible enough to do the same if they were to sell them.

Devon

[ydnic]

Isn`t the point of hybrids exactly that. Wouldn`t some one want the snake more for it being a 'bateater' than anything else.
Thats the attractive part of a hybrid to me anyways!

Good luck.

I agree that it isn`t limited without hybrids - but I do think that hybrids also create an open door with endless possiblities

IMO hybrids are very interesting animals, and I guess if it was really wrong it wouldn`t be possible.
I only just found out my jungle corns are a king/corn snake. I didn`t realise that, I just thought they were a different species of corn, so I can see how some people wouldn`t understand that it is a hybrid by just the name alone. So I can see where hybrid can be a problem.

[BOA68]

I really don't see anything wrong with hybrids. For all of u that are sooo against crossing species you haven't a clue. Hybrids occur in nature all the time so it isn't something that we are doing by ourselves. On top of that there was something posted earlier about inbreeding. There is now inbreeding going on her. What anaconda is doing is crossbreeding. There is nothing wrong with it. There are thousands of species of all different animals on earth that are a result of crossbreeing and you probably don't even know it. And if you want to make an argument about inbreeding i hope you don't own or appreciate albinos because most have been inbred to keep producing them, so u are hipocrites. Anaconda they are going to be beautiful snakes hopefully it will be a successful effort. I wanna see pics of the babies. And to everyone else who appreciates what Anaconda is doing, good for you for having open minds. Also it is very hard to inbreed hybrids once you have them because most are sterile due to the crossing of the species, so that eliminates any inbreeding that could occur with hybrids.

[meltingfetus]

hatch them out and breed them back to a retic so you can get jungles

[timminsreptiles]

First off......dont bateaters occur in the wild on there own???......i think there is nothing wrong with hypridizing like that especialy if already occurs in the wild....im working on creating a burm/rock cross myself and from what ive been reading they also occur in the wild............and like someone else already said......what about all the dog breeds out there pure bred or not.....where did they come from?

[peterm15]

if they werent ment to mate... they wouldnt... now if someone had sex with a snake and created a snake/human species i wouldnt agree with that.....lol.... i dont see any problems with it.... and imo, everyone should take a look back into there family tree and see if any nationalities are crossed... hey if your part anything and not just full of one race, colour, or religion then arent you a hybrid to.... dont forget... were animals too

[BornboreD]

I'd say it would be pretty difficult to find a wild Afrock/Burmese cross...... them being from totally different continents and all....

[timminsreptiles]

from what read burm and rock cross paths where their territories meet

[Ryan and Katie]

from what read burm and rock cross paths where their territories meet

Burms are from Indonesia and Rocks are in Africa so I don't think that their territories will ever meet..... They also look very similar already so why bother?


hey if your part anything and not just full of one race, colour, or religion then arent you a hybrid to....

No. Mixing race and religion is not the same as mixing different species. No matter what color you are you are still a homo sapien. A hybrid is crossing different species like a human and an ape.

[peterm15]

crossing a python with a python or a boa with a boa is the sme thing... its still the same species... its the sub species that there crossing.. a snake is a snake... a human is a human...

you have 3 catagories...
ppl are....mammals first.. then humans... thats when race comes in, its a sub species.......

snakes are... serpents first... then pythons or boas, ect....
then you have your sub species like burms and rectics...

sub species are made to procreate... if they werent they wouldnt be able to... can a cat and dog procreate, no... the gears dont fit ya know... and plus species dont just happen... all snakes out there are just a morph of the orginal... its called evulation.. they evolve to survive... without cross breeding thered be nothing... thered be no red roses, or calico cats or albino anything... without cross breeding wed still be stuck in the cave man days...

[peterm15]

oh ya and alot of ppl may be thinking that "hes new and he knows nothing and doesent even own a snake..." who cares... that just gives me less reason to be sweighed in either direction... i weighed out all aspects and thought about the human race and the need to procreate. why wouldnt snakes wanna do the same...

[HeatherRose]

Actually, it is mixing species.

The species name is the last name in the latin name of an animal, i.e a wolf = Canis lupus.

As with these snakes, both belong to the same family (Boidae), and the same Genus (python) but are different species (moloris and reticulatus)...they're hybrids of different species.

Now, lets say they were a Colombian and a Brazilian rainbow boa, they would not be:
Epicrates cenchria cenchria + Epicrates cenchria maurus.
Same Species, different sub-species.

[Ryan and Katie]

crossing a python with a python or a boa with a boa is the sme thing... its still the same species...

Pythons and Boas are not the same species. Boas and pythons are in the same order of squamata, the same suborder of serpentes and the same family of boidae (some recent research shows that they may be seperated into different families). They have different genus and species. Here are a couple great websites to check out so that you can learn some taxonomy...

http://www.101science.com/Taxonomy.htm
http://www.curator.org/LegacyVMNH/WebOfLife/Kingdom/P_Chordata/ClassReptilia/O_Squamata/InfraSnakes/snakes.htm
http://www.borg.com/~lubehawk/taxonmy.htm

Humans are mammal (class), primates (order), hominidae (family), homo (genus), sapiens (species), sapiens (subspecies). Race is not involved anywhere and we are all the same subspecies.

all snakes out there are just a morph of the orginal... its called evulation.. they evolve to survive... without cross breeding thered be nothing...

Cross breeding is not the main source of evolution within a population. The four forces of evolution are mutation, gene flow, genetic drift and selection. Snakes are not just the morph of the orignal, it took thousands of years of tiny changes to result in the large amount of diversity on this planet.

www.geocities.com/we_evolve/Evolution/evol_basics.html

[peterm15]

i never said they were the same family... a python is a python.... mutation is in direct relation to cross breeding... but what really makes a difference is...CAN they breed, yes. should they, thats up to you... if something can breed why not....

you ppl are useing all these scientific terms that im not even sure if you understand( please take no offence, you may but frankly it doesnt matter im not meaning to insult anyone) im pretty sure that there are lots of WILD snakes out there that at one point in time didnt exist... we look at them as purebreds cause thats what we know them as.... but in all reality there probably just a cross breed. why do you think there are so many species out there.... if the gears fit and can turn itll make time change right....
if they werent ment to breed they wouldnt...

everyone is entitled to there own opinion but everyone has to weigh out all the facts... you can have a purebred toy poodle but at some point there was a crossbreed to creat a smaller poodle... same goes with snakes as well as everyother animal on the planet....

there are only 2 animals that have sex for pleasure ppl and dolphins, the rest do it for survival... even bactria can crossbreed and theres nothing we can do to stop that...

i just believe if it werent for crossbreeding wed be very limited in our hobbies and lifestyles...

You can even get purebred shipoos... and everyone knows there a shiz sue and a poodle cross

[HeatherRose]

This is because all dogs are the same species, with the same number of chromosomes.

Snakes are not all the same species. It's the *species* name that is important, not the genus or family.

For the record, I'm not using any terms I don't understand :)

[Ryan and Katie]

I was not trying to argue for or against cross-breeding or hybridization. I was trying to correct the misinformation in the thread.

you can have a purebred toy poodle but at some point there was a crossbreed to creat a smaller poodle...
I would think that it is likely that selective breeding would be more responsible for this than cross-breeding...

im pretty sure that there are lots of WILD snakes out there that at one point in time didnt exist...
That's true but cross-breeding does not influence the evolution of a species as much as you think. Cross-breeding is not a valid method of evolution beacuse it would tend to homogenize animals instead of leading to diversity. The differences between species of snakes took thousands of tiny changes over thousands of years.

[Invictus]

Originally posted by peterm15
[B]there are only 2 animals that have sex for pleasure ppl and dolphins, the rest do it for survival...

Absolutely 100% dead wrong. Every single primate in the world has been found to have sex for both pleasure AND status. You shouldn't get your science from spam emails with "strange and interesting facts" that circulate on the net.

[DeviledDiablo]

LOL readin this whole thread made me fall asleep.. im not really an expert on snakes.. but doesnt "pythons" lay eggs and "boas" give live young? in that sense along.. wouldnt they be classed differently? i mean that itself is a HUGE trait difference rite? lol i mite juss be fuelin the fire.. but thats wut i always though it was.. personally i would think that snakes should bread wit its own type.. i mean it took thousands of yrs juss to make wut we see.. and it takes 1 yr for someone to mess it all up.. i say enjoy wut u see in these animals.. (as pures) im sure u wouldnt want ur kid to be full of hair and have a tail ( juss because someone else mite think it looks nice) there is nothin we can do to stop ppl from doin it.. and we do all have our own opinions on things.. but are we doin all this for the snakes or ourselves? think about dat! and i no i no.. its your snake its your snake.. but does the snake think ur its "master"? or have any loyalty to you? i think we should think about the snakes as a speicies and not juss another toy we have to play around wit.. btw this is juss my opinion.. not tryin to start anythin wit anyone ;) well thanx for an interestin read anyways..
peace

[DeviledDiablo]

o ya.. btw anaconda.. good luck wit ur project.. we all have reasons for doin wut we do :D nothin against that. and i m kinda curious as of wut these snakes look like.. ( im new to the whole snake deal ) but anyways im gonna go check out some pictures.. im sure they look nice.. cause ppl here seems to want them..
peace

[Jeff_Favelle]

i never said they were the same family... a python is a python.... mutation is in direct relation to cross breeding...

Wrongo! Mutations are NOT a direct relation to cross breeding, LOL! Where did you dig THAT up?

And boas and pythons ARE in the same family. The family Boidae is both boas and pythons.

It makes me wonder where people get their info. Scary at times.

why do you think there are so many species out there....

Do YOU know why there are som many species out there? Do you have any idea of the mechanism(s) that facilitate the abundance of similar species? Please share, because its not why you've been saying. 1st year biology at ANY accredited university will answer all of your questions.

[lostwithin]

OK I just read through the whole thread and peterm15 I am afraid you have a completely wrong idea going on in your head, crossbreeding is not a factor in evolution, the way we get all those different species isn’t by mixing ones we have infact a species in the wild is often defined as a separate “species” when it evolves to the point that it no longer breeds with the species it derived from. Cross breeding in the wild occurs, but only by species that ranges overlap, and the result is not a species it’s a hybrid, these cases are rare and often result in infertile offspring if any.
As for humans and different races I’m not touching that one, I will mention religion has nothing to do with it.

Devon

[JimmyDavid]

It's stupid that this thread turned into a Taxonomy101 lesson. Go back to the original post and recall what this was all about, people.

[Jeff_Favelle]

It's stupid that this thread turned into a Taxonomy101 lesson. Go back to the original post and recall what this was all about, people.

Its NEVER stupid to learn. In fact, in learning's absence, what do you have?

I'll tell you. Stupidity. Ironic eh?

[peterm15]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
Its NEVER stupid to learn. In fact, in learning's absence, what do you have?
very true, thank you... imlearning alot....

now everyone is right religion has nothing to do with it, i dont even know why that came up. and im very sorry...

now i got a few questions first of all... i got confused...

these are both pythons right???

If so shouldnt they have the same "gene pool" same number of crom. and stuff???

and if two humans from different races and 2 different types of dogs can procreate then why cant 2 snakes...

now i can see your point of trying to mate a python and boa there like cats and dogs right... or trying to mate a rectic with a childrens. or something arount these lines...

and how many scientists have proved this this sex for pleasure thing. cause you know science is mostly theroy. some scientists think and have prooved dog ARE colour blind and some have prooved otherwise. so until i can have a horse come up to me and say " i have sex for pleasure" ill believe my own theroy.

[peterm15]

oh ya and im sorry if some ppl are taking this as an arguement but its really not.... this is a learning experence and im really enjoying it... last night i know i was pretty rude and jumpy but im sorry i was really tiered...( i havent slept in months) thanks to everyone who is taking part and helping me and others learn..

But i still have my own beliefs.. and my main one is if two animals can and want to procreate why not... its not like it was artifical insimation...

[Ryan and Katie]

and if two humans from different races and 2 different types of dogs can procreate then why cant 2 snakes...

Humans are all the same species as are all the different breeds of domestic dog. This is why they can all procreate. Snakes that are the same species or subspecies can breed. The definition of a species is "groups of actually or potentially interbreeding natural populations which are reproductively isolated from other such groups" or "a related group of organisms that share a more or less distinctive form and are capable of interbreeding".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species

There may be some breeding between different species of snakes but that usually results in sterile offspring. If the offspring are not sterile that could indicate that the two species are closer than previously thought by taxonomists.

this is a learning experence and im really enjoying it...
That is good to hear..... :)

[HeatherRose]

and if two humans from different races and 2 different types of dogs can procreate then why cant 2 snakes...

Humans = same species

Dogs = same species (regardless of how many 'breeds' there are, dogs are ALL the same species)

Snakes = NOT all the same species.

If so shouldnt they have the same "gene pool" same number of crom. and stuff

Dogs (same species) all have the same number of chromosomes. I will assume that snakes do not, because they're not the same species. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

oh ya and im sorry if some ppl are taking this as an arguement but its really not.... this is a learning experence and im really enjoying it... last night i know i was pretty rude and jumpy but im sorry i was really tiered...( i havent slept in months) thanks to everyone who is taking part and helping me and others learn..

You didn't show it, and everyone has bad days anyway...This thread is of great information to everyone involved and I think taxonomy IS important :p

[Kyle Walkinshaw]

This has been a very interesting thread. Thanks Ryan and/or Katie for the great links, and everyone else who added positive input, I enjoyed the taxonomy lesson.
@ Favelle, I love how you always get atleast one smart a$$, BUT intelligent comment into almost every thread :D Keep um coming!

[D J N]

Here we go again, hoestly I hate this ****, I don't see the big deal with it and what really gets me is how it's fine for large breeders like Bob Clark to do it ya don't see people bashing him for his Borneo Bat Eaters. So let the man breed what he wants I mean its so Hypocritical because every one loves albino burms and all the colour morphs but guess what they arn't all that natural they are only around thanks to selective in-breeding, which increases the chance of genetic defects. Just look at the Leucistic Texas Rats Snakes! But you don't see people saying it's disgusting to inbreed now do ya.

And Yes I'm fully aware that selective breeding is within the same species but it seems that it's only with large constrictors that this becomes a problem. I mean when someone posts a Jungle Corn no one really says anything, so if you don't agree with it at least be poile and respectfull of others oppinions and beliefs.

[Jeff_Favelle]

If so shouldnt they have the same "gene pool" same number of crom. and stuff???

Gene pool has NOTHING to do with the number of chromosomes. Its not even close. Just look up the two terms in a common dictionary and it will tell you the difference.

[peterm15]

look i really didnt ask for that... and it was two different questions... you said something about chrom. so i wanted to know dont they have the same number of them.... and arent they from the same kind of gene pool.. there both pythons right...

[Jeff_Favelle]

@ Favelle, I love how you always get atleast one smart a$$, BUT intelligent comment into almost every thread Keep um coming!


LOL Kyle! I just want to make sure that if people are going to argue and back up a point, then they should AT LEAST get the specifics right, don't you think???!!! I don't even have an opinion on the bateater thing. Who cares? I hate Burms and Retics anyways, LOL! But when someone is going to argue a point and they don't know the basics of what they are standing on, I gotta help them! Its my duty! LOL!

[Jeff_Favelle]

They are NOT from the same gene pool! Like I said look it up.

Oh frig, let me look it up FOR you then.............

The gene pool is the collection of all the genes available in the breeding population. That is, all the possible alleles that can POSSIBLY be passed back an forth to each subsequent generation. Burms and Retics DON'T meet in nature. They are of different gene pools! That's why they are different species! Their pools of genes don't mix in the wild.

I have to go pull my hair out now..............

[Matt_K]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
Who cares? I hate Burms and Retics anyways, LOL!

And you can Add BP's to that list.. Are there any snakes you like anymore?? LOL

-Matt

[Jeff_Favelle]

Hmmm.....a couple. LOL!

And I'm not picking on you peterm15. I'm just making sure you have a solid foundation of FACTS to base your arguement on. That way, people will take you seriously when you tell them your side of things. Cool?

[JimmyDavid]

well Jeff, for a guy who hates burms and retics you sure are posting a lot in this GIANT PYTHON thread.
Let's see. I agree that it's never wrong to learn but there's a place and time for everything. If you want, we can start a taxonomy related thread where everyone's free to join in and "learn".
But Anaconda started this, and he posted a photo of his bateater project.
Next thing you know, someone is telling how wrong that's supposed to be and later, it's a Biology class in here. Don't you think it's getting a little
away from what the author of the thread first intended?

[Ryan and Katie]

Next thing you know, someone is telling how wrong that's supposed to be and later, it's a Biology class in here. Don't you think it's getting a little away from what the author of the thread first intended?
The only reason that this thread turned into a taxonomy discussion is because members were using misinformation and incorrect facts to argue the point for (or against) hybridization and cross-breeding.

But when someone is going to argue a point and they don't know the basics of what they are standing on, I gotta help them!
Exactly!:)

[rwg]

This is why common names suck, and anyone seriously into the hobby (serious enough to argue about hybridization on a web forum) should learn a little about taxonomy. "Python" as it is commonly used does not refer to a group of snakes that are all in the same species. There are some pythons that are that closely related, but many more that are not. Same applies to "boas". Think your Rosey would make a good mate for a BCC just because they both have boa in their name?

Roy

[peterm15]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
Hmmm.....a couple. LOL!

And I'm not picking on you peterm15. I'm just making sure you have a solid foundation of FACTS to base your arguement on. That way, people will take you seriously when you tell them your side of things. Cool?

very cool thats all iwas asking for... everyone is entilted to there own opinion... mine still hasent changed but now i can realise yours... thats all...
when i bought a python book for my own reasearch into the one i wanna get the first thing i read was the differences between the two... all i wanted to know was an explaination on why they ar econcidered different so different...

[Kimo]

I think it's time people came off their rockers and looked at the one simple fact that alot of people here seem to be ignoring...

If it was wrong, Mrs Mother Nature wouldn't allow it...it's a simple fact that no matter how much you think is morally wrong (wich mother nature cares not for. Proof is in the original picture at the start of this thread) is still possible, with or without mans help!

By the way, your so called morals, a word created by man...simply dont exist in Nature.

You find me a lesson in accredited university where it states that "Morales" are a factor in Nature, and i will publicly say i am wrong in this thread. Untill then, if you dont like the idea of hyrbids, or cross breeding, keep your comments to yourself, unless you can PROVE that your dislike of hybrids is a factor in natures rules....

if it can be done, it will be done, and thats Nature! Completely 100% unpredicatble, so stop your crying because you can't comprehend, or understand it, Nature carries on...

Proof? What do you think happened with Mules? a simple cross between a Horse, and a Donkey, Voila! or how about those nifty Lion/Tiger crosses, or perhaps the whole Mastiff family in Dogs, The German Mastiff, and English Mastiff are perfect examples! incase your all wondering what a German Mastiff is...It's a Great Dane.

it all boils down to this...if it was against the laws of Mother Nature, it wouldn't be possible, yet here it is..happening! so who's really wrong here? Mother Nature, for allowing it to happen? or mankind for helping it along?

thats just my two cents...take it as you will!

P.s. I'm with Favelle, and the rest of em...i dislike Hybrids VERY much, but i am not so close minded as to say its morally wrong, or wrong for that matter at all, i just personally dont like em! So To the original poster of this thread, Congrats & Good Luck with your cross breeding, and i hope you produce fat, healthy lil pythons for the rest of human kind to enjoy!

now im gonna go educate myself on what a "Bateater" looks like...am kinda curious!

Josh

[peterm15]

well said kimo... im with you on this.... there actually pretty good looking snakes....


and ron good luck... the bat eates are good lookin snakes.. congrats

[JimmyDavid]

Amen to Kimo.
Nature has it's own ensurance. Since extinction is as natural as rain, therefore ALL species need a flaw. Homo Sapiens was given a "Guilt complex" unexistent in other species, wich will ultimatly lead to our own destruction...

[Andy]

Originally posted by D J N
[B] I don't see the big deal with it and what really gets me is how it's fine for large breeders like Bob Clark to do it ya don't see people bashing him for his Borneo Bat Eaters.

Actually I am 99.9% sure Bob has never created a bateater.

As for labeling the animal as a hybrid, I dont see how you could label it as anything else. Bateaters dont look like burms, retics, or anything else for that matter other then bateaters. And as for selling the babies, he will be lucky to make a pair or a trio for himself due to the rediculous infertility rate. I wouldnt be worried about the bateater population running rampant and mucking up the captive burm or retic gene pool lol....

Good luck "anaconda"! Getting them to copulate is a feat in and of itself. Now make some babies!!

[BOA68]

I don't believe there is any threat of bateaters running rampant or "mucking up" the gene pool because hybrids of any species of any animal are sterile so they won't be reproducing. Correct me if i am wrong, but i am almost positive about this. (example: mules, and hybrid striped bass) both sterile hybrid species.

[rwg]

You're wrong. Some are sterile (mules), and some are not (jungle corns). Dont have a clue about bat-eaters.

Roy

[Toshi]

Originally posted by BOA68
I don't believe there is any threat of bateaters running rampant or "mucking up" the gene pool because hybrids of any species of any animal are sterile so they won't be reproducing. Correct me if i am wrong, but i am almost positive about this. (example: mules, and hybrid striped bass) both sterile hybrid species.

You are incorrect in your blanket statement. True... some hybrids are sterile ie: F1 Bengal (Asian Leopard Cat/domestic cat cross) male kittens are sterile but the female offspring can reproduce. Bateaters can be successfully bred back to either burms or retics (ie: Jungle Retics).

[JimmyDavid]

Of course Bob produces bateaters. he advertises them on is website. Also other
respected breeders (like NERD) do it.

[BOA68]

Thank you for correcting me. I said i wasn't 100% sure. Well i guess you learn something new everyday. Do you know why it is that some are able to reproduce and others aren't?

[Andy]

Originally posted by JimmyDavid
Of course Bob produces bateaters. he advertises them on is website. Also other
respected breeders (like NERD) do it.

Just because they are on his website doesnt mean he has produced them.

I know he had a large male bateater at one point in time that he sold to NERD. Bob couldnt get it to produce, so he deemed them sterile. Kevin got it to breed a sumatran silver retic "Scary" and produced the small clutch of Jungle retics he had. Bob also bought some babies from a breeder down in florida. Those are the only babies to my knowledge that Bob has had for sale, and therefore has never produced them....

[JimmyDavid]

He has them available, so if he's not producing them, he's getting them somewhere. DJN's point was that Bob has nothing against hybrids, either that or the guy would be a major hypocrit.

[Toshi]

Please keep me updated on the results of your Bateater breeding attempt. I would be VERY interested in acquiring one of the offspring if you are successful. Here's my contact info:
toshi@accesswave.ca
Pat - Nova Scotia

[Andy]

Originally posted by JimmyDavid
He has them available, so if he's not producing them, he's getting them somewhere. DJN's point was that Bob has nothing against hybrids, either that or the guy would be a major hypocrit.

I ABSOLUTELY quarantee he has none available. He has them on his webpage, but that doesnt mean he has any available. I dont think there have been bateater babies available for a bit over 3 years, from anyone.

[JimmyDavid]

I have no info on that, but i believe you, Andy. Notice though, that he mentions nothing about being available or not at present time. He simply states that he sells them for $2,500.00, leading one to believe that you can go ahead and buy.

Are you sure bateaters have not been produced for that long?

[dean_h00]

What is bobs website address?

[rattekonigin]

I just wanted to add a little info to this thread...many people have stated that hybridization is not a mechanism of evolutionary change, however, this is definitely not the case.

There are several well documented examples of hybridization events (in the wild) producing brand new species that exist (in the wild) to this day...mostly in plants (look up info on homoploid speciation in Helianthus sunflowers) but also in vertebrates (Cnemidophorus lizards)...

[D J N]

Well my point aqbout bob was that people still think very highly of him evne though he has tried to produce Bateater as well as Burm Afrock crosses so if ya don't like hybrids keep your comments to your self. I mean I don't like ball pythons but you don't see me in the BP forum bashing all the BP's now do ya!

[daiyoukai]

About bateaters. Iv heard that both snakes need to come from indonesia for it to work. Any truth to this? because thats where they naturaly cross habitats.

[Toshi]

Was there any success with the Bateater breeding? I have been anxious to hear what happened.

[Gregg M]

I do not believe how many people think that hybrids are OK....
I also cant believe that there are people who think the human race has different subspecies.....

Anyway the big problem with hybrids, is that the captive populations WILL be poluted with unpure bloodlines..... Its like having a pure glass of orange juice and putting a drop of grape juice in it...... It is not pure anymore..... I know I would be pretty pissed if I were to breed animals I thought were pure when in truth they have some blood from another species from 3 generations down the line......

On to the Bob Clark statement.... I would call him a POS too for poluting the pure bloodlines..... Naturaly occuring intergrades are OK to reproduce in captivity but to create hybrids that would not occure in nature is just unethical and just plain wrong..... Just because they can breed does not make it right.....
You can kick an old man down the stairs if you wanted to...... Does that make it a good idea???? NO!!!! Hybrids born in captivity should be used as feeders in my opinion.....

[kevyn]

Hybrids born in captivity should be used as feeders in my opinion.....

Such an evolved and compassionate statement.

[M_surinamensis]

Lotta bad science on this thread too. Some of it was cleared up, some was left sitting there untouched. Reeking and steaming slightly.

Here's the thing... a species is defined as a naturally interbreeding group of animals. Taxonomy is largely a science of semantics and a little guesswork as information about the naturally existing populations as they exist presently is known... and certainly there's an emphasis on what those populations were in the past.

There's more to a species than captive interfertility though. There are intrinsic isolating mechanisms that keep animals which have overlapping ranges from hybridizing regardless of the fertility if a cross were to occur. Captivity retards certain behaviors and certain selective abilities, this is especially true when some greedy nitwit with a god complex starts using shed skins to scent animals of different species and opposite genders. A slight argument can be made that the supression of the instinctive drives that cause individual animals to select other individual animals is automatically destroyed in every captive pairing and this is accurate... it's a question of degree though. Lines need to be drawn someplace and it sure as hell should be done before abominations like bateaters are created.

When populations can be shown to interbreed naturally with any degree of regularity, it doesn't mean they're creating hybrids. It means the taxonomy was at least a little off. Cnemidophorus are NOT an example of hybrid animals creating new species (just ignorant bad science to make that claim) they're an example of the taxonomic emphasis on labwork with preserved specimins getting it a little bit wrong. When sufficient evidence can be shown to indicate that interbreeding in the wild occurs it's time for some revision of the full species status that may have been previously granted (i.e.- florida and brooks kings). Retics and burms do NOT cross in the wild, no matter what a few ignorant individuals may have written on this thread. Evolution is a constant thing and there are ever changing environmental pressures that animals within a population may adapt to in subtly different ways and the result may start to divide a single core species into multiple subspecies or even species... and the factors involved in this may push animals which have *started* to drift apart back together. Subspecific populations may be undergo situations wherein they lose evn the subspecific identity. Once interbreeding ceases though and populations are seperate and distinct- that's it. It doesn't go backwards after that point.

Hybrids are dangerous to our captive populations though, they pollute and destroy them. No matter how ethical the originator may *think* they're going to be about proper representation of the resulting offspring, they can not make any guarantees that other people will be equally honest or have equal understanding of what was done (we have an example right here on this thread, someone didn't know that pythons were multiple species). It's reckless and irresponsible herpetoculture in every way possible and it's already had an effect on captive populations of several species.

Subspecific intergrades that don't occur naturally (some species have large enough ranges where this can be the case) are just as bad.

I'm often a stickler for precision and accuracy... and I should probably add some B.S. line about how ethics are a matter of perspective and morality is an individual choice and how opinions can't be wrong... but that's a load of horse manure.

1)People who create hybrids endanger entire captive populations.
2)Anyone who can't follow the logic and science that supports this is a flaming idiot.
3)When your idiotic opinions endanger the purity of the animals I keep with no justification beyond greed then they're flat out wrong.
4)Euthanasia of animals that shouldn't exist is a fine solution. It should be as humane as possible but if the lives of a few animals endangers the potential futures lives of many, they need to be put down. Immediately. Hybrids belong in a freezer, in a CO2 chamber for a few hours or inside a larger species experiencing the wonders of the digestive system firsthand. Period.

[RB420]

well said M_surinamensis, well said. from this day on, i am going to do my best to direct anyone who even considers hybridization to read this thread. At least this way when they are destroying the captive bloodlines, they know what they are doing while they do it.

[Toshi]

The hybrid debate is soooooo lame......really.....to be so hung up on the subject is pathetic. If it was not meant to be done then it would not be genetically possible.....if it is possible then nature left the option open.

[kevyn]

I seem to recall reading somewhere, that the first captive bateater was an wild caught import from Thailand.

[Gregg M]

Originally posted by Toshi
The hybrid debate is soooooo lame......really.....to be so hung up on the subject is pathetic. If it was not meant to be done then it would not be genetically possible.....if it is possible then nature left the option open.

Are you freekin kidding me with that rediculous statement???? Nature never intended for humans to take two different species and force them to breed and produce poluted blood lines and less than nice offspring..... It was never intended for a retic and burm to breed..... THEY DO NOT DO IT IN THE WILD!!!!! Anyone that says they do is stupid at best...... They are tricked into breeding in captivity...... Just because it can be done in captivity, does not make it right or even a good idea..... MOST hybrids should be humanely culled and used as feeders.... Bottom line..... This is not a fun hobby anymore with all of these greedy people doing things to these animals that should have never been done..... People suck..... Especialy hybrid breeders and venomoid hackers....

[RB420]

Greg, what do you mean exacky by Venomoid hackers?
and you sig says you keep gaboons, buit you will not BUY venomoids...does that mean you caught your own? just curious

ps im with you on your statement

[peterm15]

i cant believe this has resurected.. into another arguement... why cant ppl just get over the fact that some are goint to do it no matter what... theres nothing you can do to stop it.. this page was like one of my first posts.. before i knew much about snakes.. now im not saying i agree or disagree with hybreads.. personally i dont care..

i think its about time this thread was closed.. there are to many ppl trying to get away with putting someone down.. need proof..

I seem to recall reading somewhere, that the first captive bateater was an wild caught import from Thailand.

then in reply to this...

It was never intended for a retic and burm to breed..... THEY DO NOT DO IT IN THE WILD!!!!! Anyone that says they do is stupid at best

its absoutly redicoulas that some ppl are still hung up opn a thread that was started like 6 months ago..

everyone is entitled to an opinion.. and there opinion doesnt make them stupid.. wether it be on either side.. IMO if you dont like hybreads dont buy breed or support anyone that does breed them.. other that that get over it...

[kevyn]

I'm curious to know how you percieve my comments as an attempt to insult some one? I read through the thread, and found that people were saying that the bateater hybrid, couldn't occur in the wild. I simple stated that I read on another forum, talk that the first bateater was wild caught, from an area where they're ranges over lap abit. I was hoping that someone here would know the full story behind that.

I am sorry if my comment came across as insulting to anyone. This was not my intention.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Greg, what do you mean exacky by Venomoid hackers?
and you sig says you keep gaboons, buit you will not BUY venomoids...

A venemoid is a snake with the venom glands SURGICALLY removed. I don't think Greg has any of those. What exactly did you "catch" him on"????

[peterm15]

i think they were asking if he cought his snakes... and personally i dont agree with taking them out either.. but i wouldnt own one either

[Gregg M]

Originally posted by montie420
Greg, what do you mean exacky by Venomoid hackers?
and you sig says you keep gaboons, buit you will not BUY venomoids...does that mean you caught your own? just curious

ps im with you on your statement

LOL..... No it does not mean I catch my own..... Venomoids are venomous snakes that are cut open to have the venom glands removed..... I will never buy venomoids because they are animals that have been subject to cruelty just so some greedy person can make a hefty profit...... All of my venomous snakes are fully intact and have not been altered......

Venomous= Intact animals that have not been altered

Venomoid= Venomous animals that have been altered so they are unable to inject venom when they bite....

[Gregg M]

Kevyn, I was not saying anything towards you..... There are people out there that claim this hybid happens in the wild..... I understand you were just saying what you have read.....

[Gregg M]

Jeff, I just looked at your site.... Very freekin nice man...... Awesome site......

All of you people that like hybrids should look at Jeffs site...... You can produce awesome looking animals without having to crossbreed species...... Beautiful animals Jeff.....

[peterm15]

I'm curious to know how you percieve my comments as an attempt to insult some one?

if that was directed towards me i wasnt meaning your comment was an insult..

and im sorry about my orginal statement.. i just misunderstood what greg was getting at..

so greg im sorry

[kevyn]

Cool, I must have misunderstood you. My brain is only good for a few hours a day. Guess I missed my window of opprotunity.:D

[peterm15]

lmao... no prob.. sorry for the mis-undrestanding...

[daiyoukai]

Originally posted by Gregg M
I do not believe how many people think that hybrids are OK....
I also cant believe that there are people who think the human race has different subspecies.....

Anyway the big problem with hybrids, is that the captive populations WILL be poluted with unpure bloodlines..... Its like having a pure glass of orange juice and putting a drop of grape juice in it...... It is not pure anymore..... I know I would be pretty pissed if I were to breed animals I thought were pure when in truth they have some blood from another species from 3 generations down the line......

On to the Bob Clark statement.... I would call him a POS too for poluting the pure bloodlines..... Naturaly occuring intergrades are OK to reproduce in captivity but to create hybrids that would not occure in nature is just unethical and just plain wrong..... Just because they can breed does not make it right.....
You can kick an old man down the stairs if you wanted to...... Does that make it a good idea???? NO!!!! Hybrids born in captivity should be used as feeders in my opinion.....

"Gaboon/Rhino crosses" ???



and you have got to be kidding. Who would polute the gene pool? People who buy these hybrids know what they are buying and wont sell them off as anythingless. Hybrids carry a higher price and it's just stupid to assume someone would sell them as anything but. You can dislike it for moral reasons if you would like but to claim it polutes the gene pool is just freaking stupid.


EDIT: not to mention it take a experience breeder to make these snakes, not only that but the hybrids usualy dont respond back to either species scent.

[M_surinamensis]

Creamcicle corns.

[Gregg M]

Originally posted by daiyoukai
"Gaboon/Rhino crosses" ???



and you have got to be kidding.

Gaboon/rhino crosses are a naturaly occuring INTERGRADE and have cemented themselves in populations over parts of their range..... All of my gaboon/rhino crosses are WILD CAUGHT ADULTS..... Like I said before, there is a difference.....

Do you have anything else to add without knowing what you are talking about????

Seamus summed it up in two words...... CREAMCICLE CORNS!!!!!!

[tHeGiNo]

and you have got to be kidding. Who would polute the gene pool? People who buy these hybrids know what they are buying and wont sell them off as anythingless. Hybrids carry a higher price and it's just stupid to assume someone would sell them as anything but. You can dislike it for moral reasons if you would like but to claim it polutes the gene pool is just freaking stupid.

Although I will not get involved in this argument, what I will say is the negative effect on populations in which Gregg is referring to is more of a long term detrimental effect. Sure, the hybrids may cost a pretty penny at first, but like any new morph or snake on the market, the price eventually dies down, often by quite a large margin. Eventually, you will be able to pick one up for $20.00 at a pet store, much like cornsnakes. It is at this point where the pollution will start to occur, and obviously the spread is not preventable at that point.

everyone is entitled to an opinion.. and there opinion doesnt make them stupid.. wether it be on either side.. IMO if you dont like hybreads dont buy breed or support anyone that does breed them.. other that that get over it...

It goes much further then just an opinion unfortunately. It also goes way beyond the realms of simply not breeding or supporting someone who does it. Once it is started, its started, whether one particular person buys it or not. Look at the Hogg Island situation, nobody can say for sure whether they have pure bred species, and some even believe that there are no true hog island species remaining in captivity.

[RB420]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
A venemoid is a snake with the venom glands SURGICALLY removed. I don't think Greg has any of those. What exactly did you "catch" him on"????

easy there bud i didn't "catch" him on anything i asked for clarification. and got it. thank you ;)

[M_surinamensis]

Gabby Rhino crosses are one of those situations (like the florida and brooks king example) where the animals interbreed in the wild over portions of their range. Meaning they should be conspecific and the differences in their soft tissues should be noted with subspecific designations.

Taxonomy, like any other science, is driven by a lot of different things and changes over time... but the reasons for the changes HAVE TO BE NATURAL. Interspecies fertility in captivity is absolutely meaningless from a scientific perspective, it holds ZERO value in determining how closely related any given animals or groups might be. Interspecies breeding in the wild means some definitions need to be examined. All captive hybridization does is pollute and damage captive populations within the pet trade and in some cases wastes valuable genetic material and time with species (or subspecies or insular forms) that don't have a well established captive population.

The time *may* come when exports for any species are shut down... or when other regions follow Australia's lead and just shut down the movement of wildlife in either direction. Personally I'd still like to have some animals in captivity that aren't bastardized mutant abominations and the ability to buy an animal without needing to ask myself fifty questions about where it came from and what else it might have in it and if it's being properly represented.

Herps aren't exactly cuddly and they're not fashion accessories and shouldn't be kept for the shock value they sometimes hold... Only legitimate reason to keep them is a respect for the biological adaptations and the resulting product of evolutionary pressures. Take that away and they're nothing but toys and dollar signs.

[daiyoukai]

Originally posted by Gregg M
Gaboon/rhino crosses are a naturaly occuring INTERGRADE and have cemented themselves in populations over parts of their range..... All of my gaboon/rhino crosses are WILD CAUGHT ADULTS..... Like I said before, there is a difference.....

Do you have anything else to add without knowing what you are talking about????

Seamus summed it up in two words...... CREAMCICLE CORNS!!!!!!

I quoted that and added question marks becaus eI didnt know, I was under the impression you bred them. Now I know.


And I am mainly talking about large python hyrbids like the orgininal poster was trying to make (and failed to I believe). With teh amount of burms and retics availible I dont think there will ever be a poluted pure gene pool for these species.

[CARLiTO_]

albino burms were once $$$, now they can be hand for around $200. Eventually the newest and "cool" hybrid to have won't be so cool anymore and it's value will drop. People who want to make a quick buck will then breed them and pollute the gene pools.

Same thing happens with bci's but with locality. There are many bci's for sale that are a mix of colombian and central american. They have been crossed because the breeder doesn't want to take the time to find a suitable mate for his colombian so he gets a central american instead and voila...10 years down the road..i suspect we will have many problems with finding the locales and species of snakes that are available for sale. It's not too late to do something about this now.

[daiyoukai]

Originally posted by CARLiTO_
albino burms were once $$$, now they can be hand for around $200. Eventually the newest and "cool" hybrid to have won't be so cool anymore and it's value will drop. People who want to make a quick buck will then breed them and pollute the gene pools.

Same thing happens with bci's but with locality. There are many bci's for sale that are a mix of colombian and central american. They have been crossed because the breeder doesn't want to take the time to find a suitable mate for his colombian so he gets a central american instead and voila...10 years down the road..i suspect we will have many problems with finding the locales and species of snakes that are available for sale. It's not too late to do something about this now.

no, albino is genetics. it's ALOT harder to get a burm and retic to breed.

[Paul_Begg]

people seem to get genetic morphs and hybrids confused alot.
I will always stand by my opinion that covers alot more than reptile breeding:
Just because we can, doesnt mean we should.
Cheers
Paul

[K1LOS]

First off i'm not sure how i feel about this whole topic, but i will add a little to it.

Alright, im just gonna say that being okay with natural occuring hybrids, but not okay with captive hybrids is just silly. It's still a hybrid. All that means is the natural gene pool is polluted as well, isn't that even worse?

With the logic some people have used, then all morphs are wrong as well. I understand there is a difference but they are not naturally occuring, so it must be wrong, right?

Next, im gonna say that people hold way too much faith in taxonomy. Clearly its not set in stone and changes pretty frequently, so therefore take it only as a guide line, and not fact (don't base statements on their taxonomy).

And i will point out that all hybrids do not pollute the gene pool. Irresponsible keepers do.

y not start a club or orginization or something, make your bateaters or what have you, but only sell infertile offspring, keep the fertile ones in the organization. Only trick would be to get anyone breeding them in the club, which wouldn't happen.

And finally, im just gonna say this. When was the last time you saw a normal corn snake or burmese python? I swear there are more albino burms then regs these days. A polluted gene pool is something to be concerned about, but realistically, you'll never be able to stop it.

where are the mods on this one? WAAAAY off topic (myself included). This needs its own thread. Perhaps even a debate category in general discussion.

Does anyone know what happened with this guys project?

Geoff