cooling boids - more than 1 way ???

[wyz]

Got a question for breeders who like to test things and might have tried that before.

Lets say that you wanna cool a pair a Brazilian Rainbow Boa in order to bred them.

It is suggested to cool them with night time temps of 68-72F (20-22C) and kept day time temps at 81F (27C).

What if you provide them with a big enough enclosure that as low temps at one end of the cage and high temps a the other end ?
(we'll make the assumption that the enclosure is big enough and setup so that we can obtain this huge temperature gradient)

Do you think the snakes will get the right temperatures by themselves without the breeder having to force them ?

Think they know at what temp to go in order to get their body prepared for breeding ?

WYZ

[Invictus]

I can't comment for rainbow boas, but my Surinames are breeding right now, and all I did was reduce their day cycle. Their temps are the same - 88 or so during the day (basking) down to room temp at night. But, I started only giving them 8 hours of day cycle, and they started breeding right away.

[wyz]

Hum, well getting them to breed is one thing..
But some species i.e. White lip pythons need a certain temperature to create good sperm and ova.

So they can copulate, but I'll end up with unfertile eggs.

This was one of the reason I was asking this question... I'd like to create a large gradient in order to have fertile eggs even if I don't know the EXACT temp. they need. Hoping they'll go where they're suppose to.

The other reason for my question was to save time... my BRBs have a setup that actualy gives them the DTH and NTL needed for breeding, so I was wonderng if they would use the right temperatures at the right time or if I really need to put them in other enclosure and force the temp. changes on them.

WYZ

[Tim_Cranwill]

Why leave it to chance? I would just "force" the temps/conditions on them.

[Jeff_Favelle]

And 81F isn't the proper day-time temp for Rainbows anways.

[wyz]

90% chances are I will not chance it.

But, I'd like to see if anybody ever tried it (with or without success).

For sure I wouldn't like to waste a litter... If I had 10 females it would be another story, but it's not the case.

But some people on this site do have collection permiting such testing...

So the curious guy is asking.

WYZ

[Jeff_Favelle]

I've got 12 female to go for this season and I ain't trying it, if that's what you're asking, LOL!! ;)

[wyz]

You know guys, I was gonna shut up and leave it at that since you are all 3 members that I respect.

But I really gotta say something.

Do you want this forum to simply be a place where people ask you about what substate to use, to debate on hybrids, to ask you the "cookbook way" to breed leos, to post pictures and have everybody say "ouh, nice snake" ???

I was trying to increase the "scientific" level just a bit...

In 3 replies, none of you answered my question...

Not all posts need to get replies you know. If you don't have the answer, go to the next thread.

I'm asking a serious question hoping experienced breeders will answer me... if none do... it's ok.

Sure I wanna breed animal, but I also want to learn other stuff while doing it. Cookbook recipes are great, but I also wanna know "WHY ? " and if there are other ways to do it.

So why, tell me not to chance it... ? I'm not that stupid, but why not try to learn stuff ?

Don't tell me 81 isn't the right temperature if you don't end your message with what is the right temperature.

Is this forum becoming that dull ?

WYZ

[Tim_Cranwill]

But the thing is, in nature they aren't given a choice. It just GETS cooler at night during that time of year. So why would they <b>choose</b> cooler temps? I just don't think they consciously know that cooler temps mean it's getting time to breed. I think the cooler temps trigger a hormonal response and there's not much choice or thought involved at all.... JMHO. :)

By all means, try it out and see if it works though. My guess would be that you would get little to no success... but that's just MY guess. :)

And about the answering questions thing, you can't really blame us for that. You posted a question. I've seen other forums where there aren't any "experts" (not that I consider myself an "expert" by a LONG shot) around to answer some of the easier questions and people just end up getting BAD info like "I heard my cousin's friend used to do it like this" or just plain dangerous advice. I would prefer to get answers myself. ;)

Now I know this question doesn’t really fall under that category of needing a "right" answer but you see what I’m saying? And besides, nothing was taken away from you by our answers. You still have your opinion/idea/theory. Run with it and try it out. :)

[Tim_Cranwill]

Double post... :(

[rwg]

I agree with Tim. It's speculation on my part, but I dont think they seek out cooler temps to prepare for breeding. I think when cooler temps are thrust apon them, their bodies react to it by preparing for breeding. If you cant afford a litter for experimentation, I'd go with tried and true methods, although I'd be interested in your results if you do try the experiment.

rg

[Brent Strande]

Originally posted by wyz
So they can copulate, but I'll end up with unfertile eggs.

This was one of the reason I was asking this question... I'd like to create a large gradient in order to have fertile eggs even if I don't know the EXACT temp. they need. Hoping they'll go where they're suppose to.

Most of the methods out there have been tested and revamped in order to get to a 'cookbook' simplicity.

Proper research will tell you that they need tems around 85F during the day... and also that they do not lay eggs.

I really don't see where you are justified attacking the answers of those who gave you a headstart on research for this topic?

Good luck, there's a thread somewhere in the archives started by Jdouglas and contributed to often by Jeff Favelle. There's alot of GREAT info in that thread. It's in the Epicrates section, I'd recommend checking iti out!

[rwg]

[i]Proper research will tell you that they need tems around 85F during the day... and also that they do not lay eggs.
[/B]

I thought the egg thing was part of his white-lipped python hypothetical. I'm pretty sure they do lay eggs. Even BRBs HAVE eggs even though they dont lay them, so egg fertility is still a valid concern. I agree with the rest of what you said though. :)

Roy

[wyz]

Originally posted by Brent Strande
Most of the methods out there have been tested and revamped in order to get to a 'cookbook' simplicity.

True ! I didn't say it wasn't the case
I'm not putting any negative feedback on these info, they are great, but can't we "experiment" if we want to ? I sure hope I can withoyut anybodys aprouval.
I'm not asking you to follow my ideas, I'm asking if someone did it differently in tha past.


Originally posted by Brent Strande
Proper research will tell you that they need tems around 85F during the day... and also that they do not lay eggs.


I was talking about White lip pythons...

Originally posted by Brent Strande
I really don't see where you are justified attacking the answers of those who gave you a headstart on research for this topic?

I didn't get any answers, that's what I was complaining about.
And I think these guys can defend themselves if they feel to do so, they don't need you to do it for them.

I'm reading my post and I don't see any attacks, if you see one maybe you're the kind of person that can't take comments the right way.

I don't think Jeff, Tim or Ken lost their apetite over my few lines...

Originally posted by Brent Strande
There's a thread somewhere in the archives started by Jdouglas and contributed to often by Jeff Favelle. There's alot of GREAT info in that thread. It's in the Epicrates section, I'd recommend checking iti out!

I've printed this entire thread allready, it contains wonderfull information that I'll probably follow in the coming days.

But I wasn't asking how to breed BRBs, if you read my question I was asking if there is another way.

Originally posted by Brent Strande
Good luck

Thanks ! I'll need it ! It's my fisrt year attempting to breed boids..

WYZ

[wyz]

Originally posted by Tim_Cranwill
But the thing is, in nature they aren't given a choice. It just GETS cooler at night during that time of year. So why would they <b>choose</b> cooler temps? I just don't think they consciously know that cooler temps mean it's getting time to breed. I think the cooler temps trigger a hormonal response and there's not much choice or thought involved at all.... JMHO. :)

You've resumed exactly what I'm asking myself.

Too bad our backyard is not Australia, New Guinea or Brazil :( . It would be a great way to know.


Originally posted by Tim_Cranwill
By all means, try it out and see if it works though. My guess would be that you would get little to no success... but that's just MY guess. :)

Maybe next year ! ;)
I'll have more "ready to breed" trios in 2005, so I can try a different way with each female.

This year just getting them to breed wil be more than enough for me.


WYZ

[Brent Strande]

Originally posted by wyz
Got a question for breeders who like to test things and might have tried that before.

Lets say that you wanna cool a pair a Brazilian Rainbow Boa in order to bred them.

It is suggested to cool them with night time temps of 68-72F (20-22C) and kept day time temps at 81F (27C).

What if you provide them with a big enough enclosure that as low temps at one end of the cage and high temps a the other end ?
(we'll make the assumption that the enclosure is big enough and setup so that we can obtain this huge temperature gradient)

Do you think the snakes will get the right temperatures by themselves without the breeder having to force them ?

Think they know at what temp to go in order to get their body prepared for breeding ?

WYZ

Sorry, not sure why I got Brazilian Rainbow Boas, I missed the white lipped python part...

[Jeff_Favelle]

I think the answer was obvious that I think it wouldn't work as well, or I would be at least trying it. I kind of thought that it was implied when I said "I wouldn't try it".

And its not up to me to correct every single thing about your husbandry. You were asking about breeding (the LAST stage in keeping reptiles) and you didn't even have the first part correct (correct temperatures). If you were ready for the last stage, I would probably have answered your question.

And there's a REASON that cook-book recipes BECOME cook-book recipes in snake breeding. They WORK BETTER than all the other methods. If something works better, why use something else? If putting a timer that shuts off the heat for 12 hours a day on your cages is too hard and time-consuming, I don't think you're going to be ready for the daily work of 20 baby Rainbows.

[Piers]

Well I think Its a good question.
I have had boa go off food in the fall by themselves and my hog male wouldn't go on the hot spot for the longest time and also went off his food. But This isn't the average behavier.
Some snakes will try to cool themselves but I wouldn't rely on it for good sucsess.
Even when you read a lot of breeding info on snakes that says that a paticular spieces dosn't require cycling, somewhere it usually says that they do better when cycled.
Back when I started to try breeding guys just had a lot of males and females and hoped for the best. Cycling was as much by accident than intent.
The other thing to consider is space. it would have to be a pretty big cage for a small snake in a basement or garage. Then theres all the other stuff like insulation heat to keep the room temps around 62 65 ntl 68 72 dth as well as what would be needed to regulate the cage temps at the hot end and I'm sure their are a few things I forgot or(more likely) don't know about.
Piers

[Jeff_Favelle]

All my male boas go off food in November whether I've started cycling or not. Same with the Carpets, same with the Womas, and same with most of the male Ball Pythons older than 18 months.

[crocdoc]

Jeff, they must be getting some sort of cue that it is cooling outside, or that the days are shortening. Are there windows in your snake room so there is a visible shortening of day length in terms of ambient light, or is there a slight drop in ambient temperatures in the room? It wouldn't be natural for any of those snakes to start wintering in November otherwise, so they must be picking up on environmental cues.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Circadian Rhythm.

[crocdoc]

so they're getting lighting cues from outdoors, then

[Jeff_Favelle]

Nope, circadian rhythm exists no matter what the light is. You can put them in total darkness with no photoperiod and the circadian rhythm still persists.

http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/C/Circadian.html

[crocdoc]

That doesn't make any sense to me. If it were an inherent circadian rythm telling them when to winter, why would they start wintering in November in your home?

[crocdoc]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
All my male boas go off food in November whether I've started cycling or not. Same with the Carpets, same with the Womas, and same with most of the male Ball Pythons older than 18 months.

I guess I am being a bit obtuse on purpose and should explain where this is heading. Carpet pythons and womas come from the southern hemisphere (as would some ball pythons and some boas). November is spring, so rather than winding down they'd be gearing up if they followed inherent circadian rythms. In Canada, November is autumn and your snakes are winding down, which means they are getting cues from their environment. Presumably you have central heating (I've yet to meet a Canadian that hasn't) so a drop in ambient temperature isn't the likely cue. It's probable that they are picking up cues on day length from ambient light.

[Jeff_Favelle]

I don't mean an inherent circadian rhythm that the snakes have before they are even embryos. I mean that after 5 years of cycling the same time every year, they know its time to cycle. I don't really have to do anything. I'm not sure what causes it, but it'd make a great thesis paper!

[crocdoc]

We have an unpaired female estuarine crocodile where I work. Every year she drops a clutch of eggs. The first few years she dropped them at around the time one would expect this species to lay in the wild, but after a few years it started to go off kilter. First it was a month or so late, then two or three. Eventually she was laying mid winter (which would be the dry season up north - they lay in the wet). This year she's come almost full circle and has laid close to when she should.

My guess is that this is what would happen to your snakes, all external stimuli being absent. Our crocodile has the same day/night schedule all year round, but her enclosure is cooler in winter, so it seems daylight length may be more important than temperature in maintaining the laying schedule in that species. My monitors go on temperatures.

[MouseKilla]

Wow, was that link ever over my head! lol!

I hope you don't think someone needs to be able to follow that to be considered knowledgeable enough to breed boas! That was a humbling vocab lesson for sure.

I was wondering, from what little I think I understand about (the?) circadian rhythm, if there is any way to prove that all the environmental manipulations we make to cycle has any effect at all or if things like ovulation may be all or mostly internally triggered?

The reason I wonder this is because there are so bloody many of these "cookbook" breeding plans with widely varied instructions. I'm sure a lot of people have read Jeff Ronne's no-cycle breeding instructions, I almost cried the first time I read it because it was so contrary to everything else I'd ever seen. In that article he claims that boas breed despite our cooling them, not because of it.

When I'd finished crying and banging my head off my keyboard I thought about how many different methods have been successful and the number of times I've heard of people getting unexpected litters. If one guy cools his snakes and another guy doesn't and they both produce then who's right? Is there any real proof that anything more than having two snakes of the right age and size of opposing genders in the same cage is needed to breed them?

[Jeff_Favelle]

Ha ha Killa, its stuff like that that keeps me up until 4am every night. Don't even get me started! LOL!

[hhw]

Forgive me if I'm misinformed, as I'm not sure if this pertains to ball pythons or other boids as well, but equatorial climates have wet/dry seasons rather than spring/summer/fall/winter. I'm not sure about Africa, but I'm guessing that like Southeast Asia there's a wet season from November to February. Despite longer days, the temperatures are still cooler during this period than at other times of the year.

Now, the climate in Africa probably may have little or no bearing on the circadian rhytms of a several generations captive bred ball python directly, but given that this would have been the original cycle of the imports and if all generations have been kept on the same cycle (which is quite likely since that's when they would have most likely successfully bred), it would still be quite possible for the original cycling to have been maintained.

[MouseKilla]

Stuff like what, Jeff?

Do you mean all the seemingly contradictory information out there on breeding (not to mention that 98% of it is out of date and usually plagiarized from stuff that is even MORE out of date!) OR do you just mean dumb questions keep you up late at night? lol!

Once you have enough of your own first hand breeding experience the question of which recipe is right becomes irrelevant, by then you know what works for you and that's all that matters. But, when you are breeding a new species for the first time the instructions are so inconsistent that they all become useless, they can't all be right so they might as well all be wrong.

Does anyone really know what they are talking about or are we dealing in anecdotal evidence only here?

[crocdoc]

Originally posted by hhw
Forgive me if I'm misinformed, as I'm not sure if this pertains to ball pythons or other boids as well, but equatorial climates have wet/dry seasons rather than spring/summer/fall/winter. I'm not sure about Africa, but I'm guessing that like Southeast Asia there's a wet season from November to February. Despite longer days, the temperatures are still cooler during this period than at other times of the year.

You are correct in that there is a wet/dry season near the equator, rather than summer winter, but incorrect in assuming that the wet season is the cool time of year in which snakes would be brumating. Some southern hemisphere reptiles do nest during the dry season (freshwater crocodiles in Australia spring to mind) but most do their breeding in the wet season, when it is hot and humid. If any have a period of rest, it is aestivation during the dry season.

Getting back to the original post I was referring to, in which carpet pythons and womas were mentioned, most of these would experience summer/winter in the wild rather than wet/dry tropics, anyway. Womas are found mostly in desert areas and carpet pythons range quite far south in Australia.

[Jeff_Favelle]

hhw, in the dry season, with no cloud cover, there is no way of holding what geologists call "K-up". To explain, "K-down" is the sun's rays. K-up is the heat (longwave radiation) that the earth gives back to the atmosphere during the night when the sun is not there. Ever notice that on a clear night. its WAAAYYY colder than if it was muggy and cloudy (somewhat of a greenhouse effect)?

So, in Africa, during the dry season, there is no clouds and the night time gets downright COLD. Much like Nevada and Arizona in the US. Ever been to Vegas in the winter? Night time can be well below 0 degrees, yet daytime is like 30 Celsius.

[Jeff_Favelle]

BOTH Killa! Ha ha! No, not the questions that people ask. The questions I ask myself and the things I contemplate. LOL! I'm a night owl. Its crazy.

[Jeff_Favelle]

but incorrect in assuming that the wet season is the cool time of year in which snakes would be brumating.

TOTALLY correct. Ever wonder why ALL the books say to lightly mist during the spring warm up (breeding season) for most boids?

Now you know.