Talk About... Quarantine Practices! [Archive]

Tim_Cranwill

11-09-04, 03:21 PM

Truthfully, I don't really “quarantine” at all. I definitely see the point of it but here is the kicker for me;

I have a collection of around 80 animals right now and I make purchases fairly often. All my snakes are kept in one fair-sized "L" shaped room in my basement. Let's say I get a new snake tomorrow and I keep it in a room upstairs, away from my collection for 3 months but after 2 months I get 3 more new snakes. Where do I put those? In that same room? In another room? And what if I get a couple more snakes later that month? See where I'm going with this?

I’m not crazy about what I am doing (more so NOT doing) currently but unless I have 5 or 6 rooms to quarantine animals in, I don’t see the point. Animals get checked over thoroughly and treated for mites regardless of the source; I learned THAT lesson the hard way. I try to keep them away from my new animals but the more I think about it, the more I am of the thought that if I can’t quarantine 100% properly, there isn’t much point. I worked in a Bio-Pharmaceutical plant for a while and there I learned what quarantine REALLY is. It’s not just housing them in the next room for a few weeks. It’s not adding new animals to animals already in quarantine. It is a very stringent routine that must be followed to the extreme or else it’s all kind of pointless.

This problem also applies to shows. If I go tot a show and bring 30 animals to sell and I sell 25 and purchase 6 new ones, do the 5 left from my stock now go into quarantine? They should. What do you guys do in this case as well?

What I would like to do is have a few rooms (3+) designated for quarantine that each have a different "levels". What I mean by this is each animal that comes in to my house goes in room 1 for one month (Level 1). In that room, animals are kept in very clean conditions and monitored closely for external and internal parasites. They would also get a blanket treatment for some of the more common “ailments”. Then, after one month, they would graduate to “Level 2” for a month which would be somewhat less strict and then to “level 3” until they would be introduced into the “general population”. But this method, while being as close to “right” as I can think of is a good one, it still has some errors.

So, that’s kind of where I stand. What are your opinions and methods? :)

marisa

11-09-04, 03:34 PM

I see your points. And frankly I never thought about them before.

But I really believe anyone who wants a totally safe collection will quarantine. I personally do the best I can with each and every newcomer here. All new snakes are kept on another level of my home for 3 -6 months (sometimes even more for whatever reasons), while my collection is kept in it's own room upstairs. It's about protecting my current snakes, and I want to do everything RIGHT from the very start. I couldn't bare the thought of passing something to my current snakes just because I "had to have something"

The problem I see is people running out space, not having another room etc. In this case, the solution is simple....we cannot all have huge collections unless we have the means.

I do not have three rooms for snakes. I have two. Which means I cannot simply "push more in" or "make more room" You don't do that. You own only animals you can fully properly care for.

I feel soemtimes that the urge to get more and more makes all the snakes in ones collection suffer. And once that happens, your snake business might suffer as well.

Marisa
P.S. Edit to add: This is what *I* do for my own piece of mind.

Tim_Cranwill

11-09-04, 03:40 PM

Very true about the space issue, but my point was more about "shotty" quarantine not being much better than no quarantine. I have the space to do what I would like to (3 bedroom, two story house with a full basement), but I still don't see it as being that effective... or much more effective than what I'm doing now.

A few questions. :)
Do you take animals out before or after new ones come into your quarantine room? What is the deciding factor between animals staying in quarantine for 3 months or 6 months?

marisa

11-09-04, 03:43 PM

Tim- Actually I leave them "in" longer if I enjoy watching them! LMAO Seriously. I have all new arrivals in a very easily viewable area for keeping a good eye on them. My reptile room is out of the way upstairs, but new arrivals are in a easy place to walk by everyday. If I want to "hang around" the snake longer, it stays there. LOL :)

I can't really say if I take them out before or after. My boyfriend and I have worked really hard not to buy more than we can handle, or more than a few things twice a year or less. Obviously this is our own personal choice and I can understand people who pick up new snakes every month. But for us, it's a non issue.

:D
Marisa

Tim_Cranwill

11-09-04, 03:46 PM

Ooooh, restraint. I've heard of that. :D

marisa

11-09-04, 03:47 PM

Oh BTW my opinion or practices are a mute point really as a lot of people here have 50, 100 or more snakes where your questions are really valid ones.

We on the other hand have the financial and space means to purchase more, but prefer to go really slow. We still have less than 20 snakes after being in this for four years now.

Marisa

CDN-Cresties

11-09-04, 03:57 PM

In my situation, I have a relatively small collection, I always house new additions in a different room and use different equipment for 3 months. During this time I moniter thier behaviour and make sure that everything is normal. I also keep any new additions enclosures simple ie..papertowels, etc.
My only downfall I would say is that I dont get fecal exams done but i should. :confused:

Quarantine is an all or nothing procedure, if your not committed to it, its useless. I can see how it becomes very difficult for those who have massive collections.

BOAS_N_PYTHONS

11-09-04, 04:30 PM

TIM CRANWILL:

This will be a very good post to see many opinions and techiques on quarantine. It is true this is an extensive practice in so many factors from space to house these singled out animals - medication - and time involved. I know alot of people that some of these factors create problems in there small to large collections. The biggest being space and having an effective system at time.

Here at my facility I decided early on a large scale, just because I planned out that once being experienced enough in the hobby I would evolve to more species and breed my select choices per season. That alone means I need space. So when I bought my house I already saw serious demolition and reconstruction of the basement level. Like many houses where basements are handy man construction jobs, you see lots of wasted space and multi - rooms that are more like closets than rooms at all. So the idea was put into plan and most of that level was destroyed and built up in 6 rooms. Where 2 of them are quarantine levels about the size of average walk in closets. First room is 1 - 6 months and the other 7 - 12 months. In that plan I hope I have well established animals that later go into the other rooms of either boas or pythons, some even reach the display and breeding room. Even now as we speak I am taking down room 6 that was to be my office and was built for that but now will be converted to the babies born each season.

Depending on what I think the animal in quarantine may or may not have I will prescribe the medication needed, so far other than treating 3 WC Emeralds in 2003, and a few animals I got back in 2001 at some Alberta shows with mites. The system has been rather low in need but I still separate animals due to species and value away from the main collection. I simply feel why put all your eggs in 1 basket....meaning the risk on 1 animal is insane on the serious risk of the collection. Each room has its own tools, water supply and bowls, and bedding.

I even wash up (hands to shoulders) with Virosan and soaps on each animal handling and being in each room, I know its extensive even with the healthy animals but you never know really, and the risk can always happen.

I even installed humidifiers with NIX treatment if I think new purchases might be carriers. I now automatically spray every new animal with NIX for 7 days and then watch to see the results. Every animal gets a fresh water soak for 30 minutes before getting a new cage after being purchased. There cages get sprayed heavy with NIX as well. I feel this extensive process saves me lots of headaches after.

As for new animals I separate each quarantine room in half like right / left and because I do not do alot of regular purchases each week or so I feel the split is done more on monthly purchases, but again its the value of the animal that will gain the right to a few options I try in each quarantine room. Example I would not put $100 Ball Python with a $2000 Boa Constrictor in same quarantine room.

As for deciding the time frames its simple in my case because I normally only buy babies and since they got a long time to reach adulthood the 6 month - 12 month deal works fine. I recently picked up a Ball Python that is in quarantine and ready to breed to my girls, so I am in crazy situation that was not part of the facility rules. So I deciced that room 2 will be part quarantine and part breeding room, since its not in use for anything at the moment. The Boas I had in it graduated to the adult room and this might be the best idea for the Ball Python and its mates.

When I first decided the overhaul of this level in the house my only main concern was to protect these animals from quarantine situations and now that everything is functional I am rather pleased. Now I just need to make each season pay for this peace of mind, lol.

But for people who can' t do this it is best to divide up some space away from your main collection, even a normal sized closet can be effective to protect your collection in another room or level. Practice quarantine, because in the end all it takes is 1 slip up and the rest pay for it. Years ago I was in aquaria with high end Discus fish and that is harder to quarantine than reptiles, and when I saw people disregard quarantine practices I saw full blown dissasters where 1 fish wiped out there whole collection and that fish survived. In those cases most of the high end Discus that people were bringing in from Hong Kong or Singapore were gorgeous but could never be put with established collections. These fish were gorgeous buy very sick with what is called Discus Plague - a cross between cancer and AIDS and its effects. They looked healthy but anything other than those would not survive in 3 weeks. Best way to explain this is check out your local fish hobby store, and look for Discus and especially types called Pigeon Bloods (lots of colors and types) but all are same genes. These will look healthy and the normals and CB wilds are all dark and dying, then ask the store keeper which came first the normals or Pigeons in that tank and you will soon see my point.

Holy I am writing beyond what I was planning on...lol.

Well, be nice to see other people' s views and quarantine methods.

Cya...

Tony

Linds

11-09-04, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by Tim_Cranwill
I try to keep them away from my new animals but the more I think about it, the more I am of the thought that if I can’t quarantine 100% properly, there isn’t much point.

I definitely have to disagree with that. While we may not be able to prevent anything airborne from entering our collections without having seperate buildings to be used for such, and for that reason I don't feel bad about not having a second room in which to house my animals, I feel that some sort of quarantine should be practiced to prevent any other possible diseases. Many diseases and infections are passed through contact with bodily fluids/excrement, and this is totally preventable.

All my animals have their own set of sponges, which each have their own compartments so they do not touch eachother at any time. In between handling each animal, I wash my hands with dishsoap up to my elbows or shoulders and give a good soaking with 99% isopropyl alcohol. I make sure when cleaning to take in to consideration action and placement when disposing of stuff to avoid any aerosols. When touching something communal, such as bedding, I wash my hands again first as to not carry anything over. For the most part, I tend to stick to this routine even after any set evaluation period has passed.

I do pretreat for mites, any animals coming in to my collection. I used to 'shotgun' treat with fenbendazole any animals entering, but have discontinued that practice, as I feel it to be unnecessary. Antiparasitic drugs wreak havoc on an animal's system, no matter how 'mild' it is said to be, and I only treat animals now which actually need to be treated. If animals are healthy and continue to be so, unaffected, then there is no reason to be poisoning them.

tonyj

11-09-04, 04:58 PM

This is a great topic with few finite solutions I would suggest.

Prevention is far better than a cure, but as most of us find out sooner or later, even prevention is not a sure fire way to guarantee a problem free environment.

If, as we are told, mites, to name but one potential problem, can travel relatively quickly (many feet in an hour) within a room, then surely those same mites are capable of travelling throughout more than one room or level in a fairly short time.

I am basically a one snake room operation, but I do use another room on a different floor for quarantining any new arrivals.
New arrivals will stay in the 'qurantine' room for 2-3 months and are regularly inspected with a jewellers eyeglass for any signs of external parasites, as are all my snakes.
All newcomers are given a complete submersion bath in a 'Nix' solution before being placed in the quarantine area, and will receive further 'Nix' baths over the next months before going into my snake room proper.
My main snake population will also receive a 'Nix' bath every month or so.
Each time I clean any enclosure (every one or two weeks) I use a disinfectant spray to wipe down the enclosure. My daughter works as a dental technologist and gets me a product that is used in dental surgeries. I'm not sure if this is generally available, but there are no doubt equivalents at the local drugstore.

I use these 'cleanouts' as an opportunity to handle snakes and look forward to these sessions.

I also make good use of pest strips. Narrow strips of 'Vapona" are placed in pierced 35mm film cannisters and every couple of weeks or so I 'blitz' the snakeroom with these. I can get 8 cannisters from one $10 packet.
I place them in random spots; floors, shelves, maybe in an enclosure, for a few hours and repeat the process 4-5days later. These things will last for around two months. then I spend another $10.

As I said earlier this strategy only addresses mites, but after attending shows, visiting pet shops or other peoples snakerooms at least I feel like I am trying to stay ahead of the game just a little.

Incidentally I normally keep over 30 adult and sub-adult boas and pythons.

Invictus

11-09-04, 05:01 PM

Tim, you've summed up in exact detail what I am faced with in my own collection! And your idea of graduated quaratine rooms is EXACTLY what I'm trying to set up here.

You're right though - proper quarantine is damn near impossible. If you wanted to do proper quarantine, you would need to keep a single batch of animals in contact with nothing but each other for 6 months, and not introduce ANY other animals into this quarantine until all of the animals graduated to "general population". Introducing a new animal just puts you right back at square 1. Since neither you nor I have mansions, well.... I do what I can. I buy from people who I trust. I nix everything regardless of source. I monitor closely for any problems at all.

I may be taking over my dad's place, and if that does happen, we will have a full basement for "genral population" and enough bedrooms to actually implement a graduated quarantine system exactly as you descibed. In the mean time, we do what we can, and keep all baby snakes in a separate room from animals entering the collection - we know for a fact our babies are born parasite-free. We try to keep them that way. :)

rwg

11-09-04, 05:43 PM

The way I see it there's three classes of things you want to prevent from transmitting.

1) things that move under their own power. Mites and ticks. If you ensure animals are or become clean when they come in, and that they are isolated from the collection until they are clean, you'll be okay.

2) Airborne stuff. Need separate and separately ventilated rooms to be 100% sure, but in general the more space and the less air flow between cages, the better. Do the best you can here...separate rooms, opposite side of the room...whatever.

3) Stuff transmitted through contact. This is a pretty significant class, and includes a great many nasties. This quarantine is maintained mainly through separate housing (a given) and through strict quarantine protocols. You dont need separate rooms...just make sure you disinfect anything that comes in direct or indirect contact with the quarantined animal.

Even if you cant do a decent job of #2 due to space constraints, you can still do a good job of 1 and 3, and that will buy you a lot. It is definately worth doing.

rg

Jeff Hathaway

11-09-04, 08:28 PM

Good points, rwg.

I'm building 2 separate rooms, one for new arrivals and one for 'treatment' where a problem is identified. Ventilation is separated, to a point. Still not sure whether I can get a sink into both. Wall surfaces will be anti-growth paint such as Permawhite. Floors are concrete. One room is painted and mostly operational since last spring. The other is framed and waiting for me to get back to it when I've got time:-(

Do the best you can with what you've got, but also take into account risk factors associated with each case. I've acquired animals from known sources that I chose not to quarantine at all. Others stay quarantined for months. Depends on the scenario.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

Scales Zoo

11-09-04, 08:40 PM

Tim, awesome topic.

People don't quarantine animals enough in my opinion. I've seen it with newbies, and my other experienced friends - people don't quarantine enough.

I was fortunate to have a mentor with 25 years experience. He remembered horror stories of friends losing whole collections to things like improper quarantine. He is very "anal" about certain snake keeping practises.

We have started to make choices on who to buy animals from, based on our knowledge of their quarantine and handeling methods.

We are lucky. We have 2 seperate buildings for snakes. The house has 3 levels of quarantine we can choose for new arrivals. The basement of the house, is used in worst case scenarios.

The Scales building has 2 rooms to be used as quarantine. Depending on the circumstances, animals go through a time of quarantine away from the building.

So, with 7 possible different levels of quarantine, we can decide where to put what new animals.

Rescue snakes go into level 1.

1 blackhead went right into the zoo building, one went to quarantine level 3. They both skipped many levels of quarantine. I didn't want to risk them catching anything that something we had for only a year, might have.

Recent female salmon boas poss het albino from Big Dan, skipped many levels of quarantine also. So did the Indigos I got from Mark and Kyle, and the femle Diamond from Don. I trust the source - and they are important enough snakes to keep away from many other fairly new snakes in one room of quarantine or the other.

If we ever have a snake die, we throw away the rubbermaid. I don't like moving snakes around. If they have a cage or a rubbermaid, they stay in it a long time. With expensive snakes, I have started to get new rubbermaids and waterdishes.

Proper disinfecting works - but many people don't seem to properly disinfect. A snakes waterdish, is that snakes waterdish - I don't take them all and wash them and give them to new snakes.

I generally wash my hands between touching any 2 snakes. There are always exceptions to the rule (sorting baby snakes).

If a snake doesn't want it's food, I give it to a monitor, snapping turtle, or crocodillian - never to another snake. If you can't thow them away, freeze your leftovers in a bag, and I'll pay you 1/2 price for them.

Nix and water is great. I use it on all new aquisitions, and sometimes use it weekly on the rest of the snakes, after shows, or after an aquisition that does have mites. It can't be worse for your snakes than mites.

Vapona strips are bad, very evil things that should not be kept around your snakes. I've only had good luck with Black night roach killer. Prevent-a-mite is something I have on hand, but have never used.

So, I urge everyone to do a better job of quarantining and handling your snakes. There is stuff like paramixo, IBD, cryptosporidium that can wipe out your whole collection. There is nothing you can do, except sit back and watch your beloved snakes die one by one.

Pseudomonas and Salmonella can also cause a lot of hefty vet bills, and kill your snakes.

Ryan

Katt

11-09-04, 09:25 PM

I've learned about quaratine the hard way, two times.

In BC, we had a two bedroom apartment and two bathrooms. Quarantine animals in one room with one bathroom, and the regular collection in another room with their own bathroom.

Here we have only one bathroom unfortunately. New snakes are kept in the kitchen or upstairs. Since we have colubrids, any diseases in them show up quite quickly, we keep them on paper towels to watch for mites and to see the colour of their poop.

We use oxyclean between cleanings, and bleach when switching containers, properly aired out naturally. One snake to one dish, although once in awhile I take all dishes, soak them in bleach in hot water, leave them for a day, then rinse and soak for another, then air out for another day. I tend to do this in batches.

I won't say, we have a super awesome set up for quarantine, but there are certain risks involved when keeping animals.

Certainly the best way is to make all your acquisitions in one batch, quarantine them all, then never buy anything else again.

Classic

11-09-04, 09:26 PM

Great info all. Some very interesting methods of quarantine.
I think some people go to the extream but there is nothing wrong with being too careful. My main concern with any new acquisition is the source. If i know the person is clean and reliable, i'll be a little more lax with my quar. If i dont trust the person or i am not sure, i usually pass on the purchase. I keep a close eye on my animals and i keep strict records for reference. Although i have done it, i dispise buying a snake that has no history records showing where and who its been with.
One thing i am guilty of is not washing my hands between handling different snakes in my collection. I feel there is not much point, especially if they are housed in the same rack or even room.

One question i do have to you folks that are fortunate enough to have multiple rooms. Do you seal the entrances and doorways to each room with a weather strip? Mites travel in search of a host. I'm unsure of the total life-cycle but can they not live for awhile without food? If this is the case, isn't there a pretty good chance that mites can travel from one room to another, even muliple floors? Just a thought. It would certainly put all your efforts at risk.

By the way, you all are doing a great job with your efforts to keep your collections as safe as possible. Keep up the good work and keep promoting these informative threads. They are great for all the nubs.

Brian
HighWaterHerps

Scales Zoo

11-09-04, 10:11 PM

I have never had many mites ever spread to other levels of quarantine. The goal here, is to never have infestations, to kill all of any mites on any new snakes. If you see more mites, treat everything, kill all mites.

To be honest, I see 1 mite on any snake that has been at my house for more than a week, all snakes get nixed, including the ones at the other building. If there are mites on a snake, and it gets nixed, you'll see them come to the surface.

We also put flea and tick powder near doorways of quarantine rooms, when aquisitions are questionable, to kill any travelling mites. We, now, don't have many new aquistions, and very few questionable ones. I've learned to be very careful on what I will buy.

Air born diseases, I don't worry much about. Snakes in racks are a bit close, but room to room is another story.

Also, another story, is the direct contact method of transmition - aka, not washing hands between snakes. That can spread bacteria and disease like wildfire, wash your hands!

Ryan

Tim_Cranwill

11-10-04, 02:53 AM

Brian, I agree with you concerning the hand washing. I think it’s a bit of overkill, personally. I see why people do it, but I don't believe it makes much of a difference. 95% of my snakes are within 10ft of each other. I simply do not see it being a huge issue, especially with established animals.

It's kind of like when people have babies. The baby's brothers and sisters can come and go but no cousins, neighbor’s kids and etc can visit in the hospital. Animals in close quarters likely carry the same stuff (bugs, bio-burden and etc) just as humans usually do.

I am a bit envious of you guys with STRICT quarantine though. :)

CDN-Cresties

11-10-04, 08:25 AM

Okay forgive me for this very dumb question but how to mites travel? I have never seen one so Im a bit lost here.
Thanks

Linds

11-10-04, 12:43 PM

Tim,
I wouldn't really compare it to a family living in the same quarters. Families share the same dishes, furniture, cleaning stuff, etc., whereas snakes (well at least mine) share nothing except the air around them. I believe my animals are 100% protected against anything that isn't airborne. If I had to compare it to people, I would compare it more to an apartment building, with each person having their own unit.

Originally posted by CDN-Cresties
Okay forgive me for this very dumb question but how to mites travel? I have never seen one so Im a bit lost here.

They walk :p

CDN-Cresties

11-10-04, 01:39 PM

LOL thanks, they can walk but can they climb the sides of rubbermaids? :)

Classic

11-10-04, 07:15 PM

I also agree Tim. I wish i could accomidate multi-quar rooms.

Thanks for responding with that info Ryan. I know very little about mites. I know how to get rid of them if need be but i have not had to put into practice luckily. knock knock.

Brian
highWaterHerps

Linds

11-10-04, 08:05 PM

Basically anyone who practices no attempts to 'quarantine' animals at any level, I would definitely treat any potential animals purchased as the equivalent risk of a pet store purchase, and definitely give second thought to that person's credibility (and I know I'm not the only person that feels that way). I tend to buy whatever I like as long as it appears to be in decent condition, but for those people that are more picky with the background of their animals, I would assume it would be a definite deterrant if they found out the person they were buying their animals from treated them in such a communal fashion. Everything but airborne disease can be prevented through seperation (housing, supplies, etc.), and as we all know, airborne disease is the least common affliction of captive reptiles. Basically what I'm trying to say is, what one does with their own animals is their business, but when they make their business open to the public, it becomes the public's business as well ;)

Originally posted by CDN-Cresties
LOL thanks, they can walk but can they climb the sides of rubbermaids? :)

Although I've never actually seen one on the side of a rubbermaid, I would assume they have no problems climbing them. They always manage to get in there, even without a keeper's assistance, so... ?

damzookeeper

11-10-04, 08:42 PM

o.k. So, I have read about the nix solution, and I think that is an awesome idea to use after shows and with any new animals coming it. But can it be used on all reptiles or just snakes and similar scaled animals like skinks? Would it be harmful to geckos (leos, cresteds ect.) or bearded dragons, frilled dragons? I take these guys to shows more than anything else. And what about turtles? When we get turtles should we just quarenteen or can the nix be used on them as well?

Also, I've read a bit about mites and ticks in my book "understanding reptile parasites" and it says mice and prey should also be checked. Can a reptile get mites from live mice and are they snake mites or other type of mites? What do mites look like? Any bug in my reptile enclosures would scare the bageebers out of me. lol, but I've never seen mites before so I'm curious? Do they look like plant mites? Can other animals in the house contract them, dogs, cats, birds, ect...

Do they only get mites from other reptiles that have them or a person bringing them in or can they get them from mice, crickets, or other sources like bedding and such.

Thanks for all the info, this is really educational for me. :)

oh ya, and another first aid tip I remember. A couple years ago one of my bearded dragons got a small eye infection from sand in the enclosure. I used polysporin for the outer eye on it for a couple weeks (put it on every other day) and had her in a cage with newsprint and it cleared up in no time. :)

Tim_Cranwill

11-10-04, 09:03 PM

Originally posted by Linds
Basically anyone who practices no attempts to 'quarantine' animals at any level, I would definitely treat any potential animals purchased as the equivalent risk of a pet store purchase, and definitely give second thought to that person's credibility (and I know I'm not the only person that feels that way).

Now THAT'S an insult. I challenge you to find a dirty animal in my collection OR one I've sold. Meanwhile "upstanding" members have sold me (and others I know) mites and RIs... so who's got the "pet store" risks attached to them after all? What's not here is not here.

I inspect animals carefully and I'm equally as careful about who I buy from (more and more all the time). I'm just not blind to the fact that "hap-hazard" methods aren't much better than no methods.

To have a proper and true quarantine process, you would need:

- Sterile instruments
- Sterile environments (10'000 (7) rating or better)
- A clean set of clothes for each animal (scientifically clean, not detergent clean)
- No carpet in your snake rooms or fabric furniture of any type
- Stainless steal surfaces and cleanable floors
- Latex gloves
- Alcohol foam for gloves
- Disposable shoe/foot covers
- Hair nets
- Hepa-filters - not the kinds you can buy at Wal-Mart
- A rigid cleaning and sanitizing schedule (switching between two cleaning solutions on a month to month basis)
- Several air-sealed rooms
- Air sampling machines and environmental monitoring tools

And that's not even getting into what should and shouldn't be in the enclosure and what your enclosures should and shouldn't be made of.

Now, unless you have all of that in place, I don't think YOUR quarantine is worth much more than mine. I'm sorry but bugs and germs will travel. Believe me. Drug manufacturers spend thousands of dollars a week ensuring that "bugs" don't exist in their facility. I hardly think washing your hands with soap up to your shoulders can compare to that and if YOU do, you're fooling yourself.

Do what you can, no doubt about that. And do what makes you feel comfortable but don't fool yourself into believing that you have a proper quarantine system in place, because you don't. And don't try to make me look like a pet shop, because I'm NOT.

Linds

11-10-04, 10:05 PM

I'm sorry you find my views insulting Tim, as it was truly not meant to be so. It is how I feel. Just because everything cannot be done 100%, doesn't mean that we shouldn't still do what we can to help minimize risk. I honestly cannot fathom why people (I'm not singling you out, this is a general statement towards people that practice no protection measures) would take such risks with their animals, as in my mind and experiences, it is quite dangerous, and it does make me wonder if they cut out on such simple control methods, what other husbandry factors may be skipped as well. In my experiences, as well as veterinary studies, I know that the best inspection in all the world is not sufficient means of prevention and diagnosis.Some this remain well hidden for even months before surfacing. If you had read my post, you would have seen that I never claimed to have a *true* quarantine setup (nor did anyone that has participated in this thread), and you would be hardpressed to find anyone that does, but I do take aas many protection measures as within my powers to ensure my animals the highest level of protection I can provide. I would rather minimize the risk than throw it all out the window, some is DEFINITELY better than none, I'm sorry you do not agree with that. Yes, I'm aware bacteria travels, but through a clean system, you will no doubt prevent it to an extent. By your theory, it would be fine around sharing drinks and having sleeping with anyone that we cross paths with based upon appearance without expecting to get sick eventually ...:confused: I just cannot see that point of view, or why anyone wouldn't want to do *the most they can* in terms preventative measures. Again, sorry you found my opinion to be so insulting, it is what I feel though.

Classic

11-10-04, 10:32 PM

Linds, You cant insult other peoples practices.
Does that "SuperModerator" title mean anything? I also vouch for my entire collection. I have nothing but healthy animals. I keep all my snakes in a 10' by 10' room enclosed in racks. I know all my snakes are clean. In my situation, i feel washing my hands in between individules is redundant. Who are you to say i'm dirty in a public form. I am happy that you can be so thorough but maybe you take it to an unusually high and unnecessary level?

Brian
HighWaterHerps

Jeff_Favelle

11-10-04, 10:34 PM

I don't understand the point that if you can't fully quarantine by an artificially-set protocol that you shouldn't have ANY quarantine methods at all. That doesn't make sense.

Let's think hypothetically and little see:

Say we have 5 steps of quarantining ranging from 1 (the lowest level/safety) to 5 (complete sterility). What if 90% of the nasties for snakes are killed before you hit "level 3" of quarantining? Just because you don't get to level 5, then you should bother at all? HUH??? But even if you did the small stuff, you'd catch the majority of problems that could harm your collection? But when you're of the attitude that its all or nothing, you won't see the benefits of the first 3 levels.

Of course this is all hypothetical, but it has its practices.

Let me ask the people who said "why bother quarantining if you can't do it 100%" a question, please:

If you had a snake with KNOWN mites on it, would you NIX it and put it in your snake rack? Or would you NIX it, and then put it on a sunbeam heat pad in your room or in the living room or bathroom until you cleared it up? Most would do the latter. But THAT is quarantining! That is a leve, albeit small, of getting a new acquisition clean. So if you said "why bother", yet you wouldn't put a KNOWN mite-infested snake in your rack, then you are what people call a hypocrite.

Jeff_Favelle

11-10-04, 10:42 PM

And on another note, its YOUR collection, so do what you want. Fully. NO ONE can tell you differently. But keep in mind, the industry is COMPETITIVE. There's a LOT of people producing a LOT of animals. So when all other factors are equal, its going to a feather in your cap to be known for good husbandry and quarantining practices than to not be. There's going to be people offering the exact SAME animals at the exact SAME prices as you. What's going to separate you from the next joe-shmoe?

Not talking to anyone in particular, just laying down my thoughts. Here, I don't quarantine for 6 months, but I do for about 2 months. Unless I'm buying from Don or Markus Jayne or someone like that, NOTHING goes into the snake rooms for a couple months. But then again, I don't really buy adult animals. When you look at the number of snakes I own, its like maybe 2% that were bought as adults or sub-adults.

Tim_Cranwill

11-10-04, 11:27 PM

I do keep new purchases separate for a period. Not a set period though. I examine the animal(s); take the source into consideration, monitor them for a period and make a judgment call from there. It might be 4 weeks, it might be 1 week or it might be a few months. Basically, however long it takes me to feel comfortable exposing the new animal(s) to my collection. I do NOT just slip them into one of my racks as soon as I get back frm the airport.

I just don't see the point of washing my hands in between each animal's cage and all of that stuff though. I see the extra effort as not giving enough benefit to justify the extra work. Also, with regards to the separate tools and such, I can't justify that either given that the animals are mere inches from one another anyway.

I always have NIX on hand and I "routinely" (I use the word loosely as there is no written or set routine) spray down my room and collection just incase something pops up. I also (copying Tony "BOAS_N PYTHONS") fill a small humidifier with a NIX solution and "bomb" the room". I don't make a habit of purchasing animals from unknown sources. I'm of the thought that what's here is here.

To add another analogy to the discussion, keep in mind the numbers are hypothetical, I figure that if the animal is "fairly" clean to begin with, doing a “30% quarantine” will give me **90%** of the value while doing a “70% quarantine” will only give me **93%** of the value. Doubling my effort for a minute benefit doesn’t make sense to me.

**This is being compared to a “clean room” standard of quarantine.**

Linds

11-11-04, 12:09 AM

Hehehe... it's funny how you state your general feelings on a subject, and because it is not what people want to hear, it is automatically termed an insult :p

Originally posted by Classic
Linds, You cant insult other peoples practices.
Does that "SuperModerator" title mean anything?

When did disagreeing with someone's practices, and considering them to be insufficient by my personal standards, become insulting? I'm sorry you guys find my general opinions so insulting and deeply personal. I fail to see what my position on the site has anything to do with this either, I wasn't flaming anyone or acting anything less than civil, I was simply stating my opinion, as a concerned member. Maybe instead of getting upset about my feelings, all the people that are in opposition to my standing on the topic, could use it as possible perspective in terms of business... because I'm not the only one out there, as mentioned in my previous post, that feels that way. These discussions are meant to be constructive, not turn in to a sorry match of insults and accussations.

Do what you can, no doubt about that. And do what makes you feel comfortable but don't fool yourself into believing that you have a proper quarantine system in place, because you don't.

quarantine (definition #3 by The American Heritage Dictionary): Enforced isolation or restriction of free movement imposed to prevent the spread of contagious disease.

This is in essence, any level, it doesn't need to be the most extensive setup in the world to be considered a method of quarantine, just a series of restrictions paying special attention to the possibility of disease. Just because I don't have government standardized setups, like you may find in a lab, is not to say I don't have a relatively ok system in the works.

Originally posted by Tim_Cranwill
And don't try to make me look like a pet shop, because I'm NOT.

You aren't a pet shop, but some of the practices you have mentioned ARE similar. I worked in a storefront at one time.. we only purchased outwardly healthy animals, and all were treated with BK or Provent-A-Mite upon arrival, anytime animals changed cages, everythign was cleaned with dishsoap then disinfected with betadine before a new animals entered... yet they still had shared supplies, no hands were washed in between, and no animals were given a quarantine period. I merely said, I -personally- consider animals coming from such communal environments to be of high risk, and as such, I treat them the same as I would animals from pet shops. This is how I feel, again, not meant to insult you or anyone else out there. This is just how those situations arrange themselves in my mind o>

And on another note, its YOUR collection, so do what you want. Fully. NO ONE can tell you differently. But keep in mind, the industry is COMPETITIVE. There's a LOT of people producing a LOT of animals. So when all other factors are equal, its going to a feather in your cap to be known for good husbandry and quarantining practices than to not be. There's going to be people offering the exact SAME animals at the exact SAME prices as you. What's going to separate you from the next joe-shmoe?

This was my entire purpose for voicing my thoughts... lol you said it a heck of a lot better than I did though! :p

Tim_Cranwill

11-11-04, 01:02 AM

Well, come on by anytime and see how "high risk" my animals are. *rolls eyes* But that's a pretty "super" assumption you've made... thanks anyway.

Well, now that we know where each other stands, anyone else "dare"/care to voice their opinions or practices? Please do. I was posting all of this so people could get some ideas. :)

Lindze

11-11-04, 01:14 AM

Well when ever i have a new snake come in they go to my parents place, i may have left but my snakes havent lol. i dont get many snakes in anyways, so far i should say. But i do wash my hands after handling and each snake gets their own dish and paper towel is used. They usually stay there until a clean bill of health can be given what i mean is no mites, or signs of anyother illnesses. And considering i only have 6 snakes i dont have all the expertise but im learning.

p.s. Tim i saw your set up and i like it alot. Nice clean animals....somewhere i would consider buying from. no where near a pet store environment.

Linds

11-11-04, 01:47 AM

I made no assumptions... I take facts that are given to me and consider them in factoring the overall level risk in my eyes. No matter how reputable the source you buy from, some things take a while to show up, and without some level of quarantine, this can easily overtake a large number of animals before anyone can see it. All the animal's you've posted looked great, Tim, and you can roll your eyes at me all you want, but I need more than looks to ease my mind ;) And there are many people that are far more anal about quarantine and cleanliness out there than I, so instead of getting so offended by my comments, just use them to gain perspective from the other side. As Jeff, said, the market can be quite competitive, and ultimately, things like this may make a difference. o>

Originally posted by Tim_Cranwill
*rolls eyes* But that's a pretty "super" assumption you've made... thanks anyway.

Originally posted by Classic
Linds, You cant insult other peoples practices.
Does that "SuperModerator" title mean anything?

I have still yet to get personal, stating only generalized facts and corresponding opinion, not even directed specifically at anyone, much less 'taking shots'... I don't understand why you guys feel you need to...

Canada_Club

11-11-04, 04:29 AM

I agree with Linds. Why is everyone so jumpy?? Nobody was insulting anyone and if anyone has the right to be offended its Linds. She was the only one not taking it to a personal level. If we can't state our opinions here, what's the point?

I only have a few snakes and they were purchased as CB babies. I bought them at the same time from the same breeder. But if I had a big collection with more animals, I wouldn't be buying adult animals without isolating them first. Just my newbie thoughts though.

Classic

11-11-04, 07:40 AM

Everyone is so jumpy because we were developing a good thread with alot of good info. People were sharing their practices and experiences and then someone has to add in their 2 cents in a negative manner and shoot people down. I dont care much for what you say Linds. But if you want to shoot people down for their practices or beliefs, o wait....isnt that your job to try to prevent?

Brian
HighWaterHerps

bighillreptiles

11-11-04, 08:56 AM

I see everyones point ,good and bad , if linds feels the way that she does, then that is her right to feel that way .I feel that if kept in a complete steril enviroment then the first time some little thing gets in, then the whole collection is at risk because it has no Immunity system in place, these things that we all keep and cherish are suppose to be our passion not our snakes in a bubble , I would buy from Tim any day and feel confident that he has sold the best and the healthiest reptile . As it has been stated, people don't make it selling sick reptiles in this business for long and how long have you been in busness Tim.
Paul at Big Hill Reptiles

Scales Zoo

11-11-04, 09:12 AM

I agree with Linds and Jeff on pretty much all of what they said. Yes, I said it, I agree with Jeff :)

And I also think that I mentioned basing who I purchase animals from, from the way they keep their snakes, and no one jumped on me for that.

One other thing, is I don't think people appreciate quarantining until you've had something bad happen. I wish I'd have properly quarantined since day 1, and avoided anything bad happening.

Just trying to help people from learning it the hard way I guess.

And for the love of god, please wash your hands Tim. (hehe) In all seriousness though, I think this is one of the most common ways that spread bad nasty's.

And about the question regarding Nix. I'd only use it on snakes. One time, about 3 years ago, just after we set up the building downtown - Sheila phoned me at work to tell me she found a mite on one of the snakes. I told her to nix everything.

So, she also nixed two yellow tegus. They were both dead the next day. Looking back on it, tegus should be some of the hardier lizards, fairly thick skinned and such. I'd be paranoid about using it in the same room as frogs and chameleons - as there are some vapors in the air after spraying the water mixture. I've never researched it, but there may be some info on line.

Ryan

boidlover

11-11-04, 09:39 AM

I've been reading the thread from the beginning. I feel that everyone has given examples of great systems.. it's all about what works for YOU and YOUR collection.

Just using Linds and Tim as examples, Linds feels that the way SHE does it is best for HER and HER collection, Tim does what HE feels is best for HIM and HIS collection.

I do something similar to Lindze. My newest pets stay at my mom's place for a few months, and then when I feel they are ready (usually when I've finally gotten their 'forever' homes setup) they come home to my place. I do this with my live rodents that will become breeders too. Once home I use the same water supply, same air, wash all water dishes and furniture together with some bleach and rinse well.. my male herps have green bowls and furniture, the females red. I can tell who's stuff belongs to who as my collection isn't that large and there is a BIG difference between a king/corn/milk's water dishes/furniture and a carpet pythons. The herps at my mom's have ceramic dishes that are labelled with M1 F1 M2 F2 etc, all in rubbermaids that get bleached and aired between herps and hides are cardboard boxes that get tossed into the garbage.

I also agree with Paul at Big Hill Reptiles. Most of us got immunizations as a kid that are a small amount of the disease that it is helping to prevent. I believe that the animals, whether cute and fuzzy or not all develope small amounts of immunity to something if exposed to small amounts of it.

While YOU might not agree with how someone does something with THEIR collection, it doesn't make THEIR way any better or worse than YOURS, it just means that THEY believe for THEIR collection YOUR practices aren't good enough for what THEY do with THEIR collection. If YOU buy from THEM, use YOUR standards.

To each their own people.. in MOST cases it makes the world function alot better.

tonyj

11-11-04, 10:23 AM

Ryan,
You said you do not use Vapona sticks. You do not recommend their use in snake rooms. I think you said they were 'evil'. Scary.

I am guilty of using Vapona and am aware of its use by a number of other breeders, well one or two, who I think we both hold in high esteem. No names here. however...

......I am not defending the use of Vapona strips, but merely am worried that I am using a product that I shouldn't be. With that in mind, could you enlighten me on the problems I might incur with the continued use of that product, and why? I am hoping that no lasting or serious damage has occured to my collection.

And, please everybody, lets not keep sniping at each other. We are all trying to do what is 'best'.
No one gets up in a morning thinking "I'm gonna get so and so"
today, or at least I don't think they do!
It can be a little frustrating however, when questions are ignored or someone decides to turn an interesting thread into his personal comedy section on the belief that there is nothing else left to be said on a subject.
But, taking offence where no offence is intended is not good. It makes at least two people feel ******.

Lets get back to topic, This thread is both interesting and practical. Hopefully, I am going to learn methods and things I wasn't previously aware of or had not considered. This can only be good.
Thanks and I wish everbody a great day.

Linds

11-11-04, 12:24 PM

Brian,
I obviusly cannot get through to you, you have it in your head that I am insulting people or shooting them down, which I haven't. I've avoided getting personal (unlike you), and stated only facts and my feelings on specific types of practices. I never directed my thoughts at anyone, just because I disagree you autmatically say I am insulting those who practice those ways. I added my 2 cents in the best way one could, so to imply I ruined a perfectly good thread is ridiculous. If anyone should be getting offended here, it should be me, but I'm not. Is one not allowed to disagree? Is that not what discussions are?

Tony,
This my favourite blurb on vapona, so much I don't feel the need to go write my own. I really should just save this quote to notepad so I don't have to look it up when I want to post it :p

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
Ok.

Vapona works by vapours (yikes), NIX is basically just a soap that works mechanically and chemically. The answer wasn't arrogant and it wasn't even aimed at you. I was talking to Dom (hence the usage of his name) and he replied quite nicely to me that he wasn't going to use Vapona. I'm sorry if you have stock in the company or something, but I wouldn't advise ANYONE to use it.

The active ingredient (for organic chemists) is 2,2-dichlorovinyl dimethyl phosphate. That's nasty stuff man. Its a freakin' carcinogen!!! Its also a stomach poison, and its only meant for professional use. I have no idea how Vapona gets away with selling the stuff, but I wouldn't be caught dead (pun intended) with the stuff in my house, near me, my animals, or my family. DDVP is NOT something to fool around with. In fact, I'd rather play on a highway than breathe the stuff in. Call that arrogant. I call it smart.

In small amounts, cancer is fine. Does that mean I want little bits of cancer? No. What is a small amount to you or I of Vapona, could be a lethal dosage to a reptile 1/200th of your size. What about long-term affects? What if it affects fecundity? As a breeder, that would definitely suck for me. NIX is approved for use on HUMAN HEADS! Its a soap that smothers the insects while working as a mild chemical agent. Probably not the greatest thing, but far, far safer than DDVP. Plus its local. Anything that is used as a local agent is 10x more effective and safer than a general agent.

Go here for some analysis: Thanks for your time...

http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/insect-mite/ddt-famphur/dichlorvos/insect-prof-dichlorvos.html

http://www.prop65news.com/pubs/p65news/issues/9207/920714.html

http://infoventures.com/e-hlth/pestcide/dichlorv.html

Thanks for listening.

Tim_Cranwill

11-11-04, 12:28 PM

Well, let me say this; this thread HAS made me think about my practices a bit more (as I intended it to). I would definitely like to up my standards and methods (as we all would, I'm sure) but the standards methods I choose have to seem "worth it" to me in my situation.

And to Linds (for one last time), if I were to make a post commenting negatively on people that are taking Vet Assistance classes (or whatever it is you're taking) or people with tattoos and piercings, I don't think you would be able to help taking it personally because YOU fit in that category.... it's just human nature. I’m sure there’s no point furthering OUR little discussion.

I see this thread is getting a TON of views (compared to posts), likely due to the “drama” involved but some of you on-lookers should join in the discussion. It’s an important issue. Jeff, you’ve made some comments, can you share some of your methods with us?

tonyj

11-11-04, 01:09 PM

Yikes! My Vapona stockpile is now heading for the garden shed, prior to permanent disposal.
Linds, many thanks for the informative reply. This will definitely be going into my files.
Is there anyone out there who has had problems, short term or long term, that may have been caused by the use of Vapona strips? Please share, I'm concerned.
What alternative ways are there to prevent the spreading of mites in a residence, other than spraying a Nix solution throughout the house?

In the past I have received snakes, some from highly reputable breeders, that were found to be carrying mites when I received them. This I accept as a normal hazzard.
Without the luxury of being able to house my reptiles in a dedicated, isolated snake facility, are there any other tried and trusted methods of killing those mites that may escape their host, before the Nix bath and normal quarantine procedure, and travel throughout the house, without putting the human population at risk?

Tim_Cranwill

11-11-04, 01:16 PM

Here's what I've been doing lately...

- Spray them at the airport
- Don't bring home the packaging or containers they were shipped in
- Treat them when you get home and set them up in their enclosure

That will at least minimize the chances that mites get into your house IF they had them at all.

Classic

11-11-04, 02:50 PM

Ok Linds, I crossed the line and i apoligize.

Brian
hwh

rwg

11-11-04, 03:03 PM

Mites are the least of your worries. Check out the list of nasty things that can be transmitted through fecal matter. Enatamoeba, coccidia, and cryptosporidium come to mind immediately. These can all cause death. Crypto has no treatment. I know it's rare, but if you bring it into your collection, you can kiss them all goodbye if you're not exercising reasonable quarantine practices. Washing your hands, and keeping cage furniture absolutely separate go a long way towards protecting your collection from possible transmission. I agree...if your collection is all long-term residents, I dont see a need to be as rigorous.

Hand washing is the number one way to minimize transmission of common diseases between humans. Why some people think it has no value in herpetoculture is beyond me.

Roy

BOAS_N_PYTHONS

11-11-04, 03:20 PM

TIM:

I agree with you on your latest reply.

I too do some drastic methods on shipments coming my way.

Once I at the airport I am all prepared with camera, bottle of NIX, a few Rubbermaid tubs once I already know the sizes of the animals, and surgical gloves. I know it sounds extreme but I try what I can to reduce most of the nasties that can occur coming home.

Once I have the package I usually tear it open in the warehouse. I usually have a friend or my fiancée there with me to help with the camera and tubs. The moment I can see the boids in the package a series of photos are taken to prove shipping methods and that the boids are alive. Then we try and reduce as much contact on the boids and there packaging. Because 50% of the time this packaging was used in a different order between the sender and another sale before I feel 3 sources of contact can be something to worry about. Remember most people say you can trust the source but do you know for sure that the packaging can be trusted. Lots of people and breeders use past packaging to save a buck on that process. I have seen a friend of mine here receive a package from BC that originally came from Florida and Brazil, so it indeed happens (how do I know these guys did not even try to remove all the past shipping labels only cover them up, lol).

Ok back to the method I was discussing. Once I see the boids are alive we start the photos and removing them. I get each out and spray with NIX and the new Rubbermaid tub also in NIX with paper towel as well. Each boid gets a clean medicated tub and all are placed in a larger transport tub also medicated. This large tub is placed in my SUV and we drive home. But before that point all that shipping material is sprayed and then tossed in the garbage at the warehouse. I usually get a few funny looks from some of the airport staff but a few managers have said “if you go to this length, bet you have the best animals around and you must be a scientist”, I simply say each one of these animals is an investment that on its own is important but as a whole its critically important based on so many factors that affect me in the long run. Once they arrive at the facility they then go into the 6 – 12 month quarantine.

Is it extensive – YES.
Is it necessary – YES.
Is it over kill – YES.

But in the end I cannot lose a boid or collection, thinking any less.

Anyone that has bought anything from me has always received brand new shipping materials from box, Styrofoam, newspaper, tubs, and heat packs. It costs a bit of money on this system even on a $100.00 boa, but I hope the customers see the length we go to, to bring peace of mind on quality.

This is just our method; it’s not the law or the Holy Grail for everyone.

As stated before you can trust all you want from who you buy your animals from, be it on pick up, shipment, or a close friend. You can trust the facility based on reputation, past experiences or the deal you got. But in the end if they specialize in 2 species or 2 locals or more you know your getting something more than you thought you were getting.

This post has got very hot lately more off topic then on, and as Tim stated it was to see and improve methods not to do personal attacks. There are alot of people reading this post and some may even have good information but in the end a if they see a fire will they help put it out or walk away.

So I just ask what was said and done be the end of it and lets all contribute more methods of quarantine to this post. I hope my 1st pail of water helps cool this hot subject, but let’s hope we can discuss it more on what is was started for.

Cya…

Tony

Tim_Cranwill

11-11-04, 03:32 PM

Thanks Tony, great post! :)

BOAS_N_PYTHONS

11-11-04, 04:01 PM

EVERYONE:

The subject of hand washing is being brought up a bit as well in this topic. I did state a rather extensive protocol we do here at my facility. Being each handling means we clean up ourselves as well. Some may think way to drastic, but we feel; its part of owning a large collection. Our established lines even get this treatment as well. My facility is not a public one and has very few people that have contact with it. Literally there are only 4 people who have held my animals once they arrive from a purchase or born here. What happened from purchases I can not control but once here and sold by us we can try.

Even then here at my facility it is only me that handles the collection from inspection, removal from cages, photo sessions, feedings, and regular fun handling. My 2 helpers (cousins) and my fiancée are more for the other duties around handling like cleaning the cages and adding fresh water. My whole crew understands the importance to my methods and why I must be the only handler of the animals. Even when we have close friends and family over, they know they can see but never touch. Is it over-kill, maybe but if something goes medically wrong with my collection I can only blame myself, being the only handler.

Now let’s discuss cage cleaning. This duty is performed by all 4 of us where all substrate is garbage after soiled, water bowl is removed and placed with a new one that was cleaned days before and has fresh water in it. The cage itself is washed with soapy water from top to bottom and dried out. We usually do 5 cages at once with this method and it can be a 6 hour detail on a day planned for cleaning our collection. After we spray with Virosan and wipe after to complete a full cleaning. Every 2 weeks with this weekly process I give my boids a luke warm water bath for 20 minutes each. We set up 10 tubs at a time and everything from Ball Pythons to High end Boa Morphs gets a bath. Each bath is clean water for each animal, yes Rubbermaid loves me I know I bought enough to keep them in business for 10 years, lol. Why do we bath our animals, well they do live in there toilets and even dry urine still leaves a scent on them. Also it helps with sheds. And my collection just glows in iridescence being so clean.

These big days of work are always planned on making most of the collection defecate on the same day with regular misting and knowing the schedule from feeding habits. The system works for us 85% of the time, minus Emeralds Tree Boas and Blood Pythons. Getting them all to be on this program saves everyone a lot of work, We see it as 1 day of work in cleaning and feeding and rest of week with some small check ups, instead of a weekly job only doing 10 – 20% of the collection each day.

We run a tight ship here and I am always improving the standards and methods. My fiancée says I am extreme but her parrot collection has improved with my dictatorship, lol. I know most hobbyist may feel I am going over kill and others may want to clone my ideas to there’s. All in all as stated in above post it’s just our method; it’s not the law or the Holy Grail for everyone.

Cya…

Tony

damzookeeper

11-11-04, 04:03 PM

I'm very curious though. Can the nix solution be used on all reptiles or just snakes?

I too have to admit when I clean my leo cages I only wash my hands about every 10 cages or if I get fecal on them because I clean about 50 cages at a time. And When giving them their thorough cleaning for the month (washing them in the basement sink) I think I could be more careful thinking about it now. I wash them in the same water about 5 containers before changing the water. I use soap and a bit of bleach in the water. I'm now thinking that I should just run the water into each container and wash them all separately with new water each time.

I've also housed snakes in old leo bins. Ones that have been washed out of course, but seeing as some people use one bin for an animal and toss them it makes me think!

another thing is when I'm cleaning cages I use a bin to place the leos in while I'm cleaning their cage and I use that same bin for all the leos while I clean, one or two (if housed by clutches) at a time in the bin,but about a hundred or more depending on time of year go into the bin one after another.I do the same with my snakes. So I guess I'm kind of defeating the purpose there aren't I. What should I do instead, use deli cups, changing cups for each animals and wash the delis afterwards?

Your right, this is an excellent post and it has opened my eyes about my own methods. I thought I was pretty clean as I quarenteen in another room and I keep my cages as clean as I can. But I still have room for improvement, that is for sure!

edit: to correct some spelling errors.

Linds

11-11-04, 06:04 PM

Brian,
Thanks you :)

Tim,
Going after someone's hobbies or interests isn't even relative to questioning a potential client or competitors methods of preventing potential problems, so I'm unsure as to why you would even try to make such a comparison. My comments were intended purely as feedback for everyone who practices zero quarantine, from a potential client's perspective, and instead you chose to view them as some sort of personal attack :confused: Keep in mind I never made any remarks or accusations at you or anyone else, despite being jumped all over, but I know you cannot say them same. Sorry such an informative thread had to be filled with this sort of stuff :(

That asides... Tim and Tony,
I would be worried about vapourizing Nix around any living creatures, safe as it is made out to be, Nix is still poison nonetheless, and breathing poison isn't good :eek: Do you guys remove your animals prior to using Nix in the humidifier? What are you opinions on the safety of this? I use BK for all mine, and although it does carry some risks, I always open all the windows and remove the animals from the enclosures that are being treated in order to minimize the effects (and some animals that I feel would be exceedingly sensitive, such as lizards or apmhibians), until I feel everything has been adequately aired out.

Deb,
Nix should only be used on snakes. Apparently it can be fatal to some lizards.

Tim_Cranwill

11-11-04, 06:26 PM

Linds I was trying to put an end to this nonsense. Obviously you're not capable of letting it go. You must always be "right". Why even bother "debunking" my analogy? What's the friggin' point?!?! I was referring to feeling INSULTED when someone makes negative remarks about a group of people you belong to. Can't you see that? Yeesh! Why do I bother with you... You're right, ok? There. Now let it go...

You know, the thread was actually getting back on track until YOU got involved again...

And to get back on track and answer your question in a civil way, no I don't see it as being much of a risk or being much different than spraying the animals or room. And it's to treat the room more than the animals. I only do it for ½ an hour or so every couple months. I’m not sure if it even makes a difference but I would be VERY surprised if it had any ill effect on the animals.

Jeff_Favelle

11-11-04, 06:34 PM

I wouldn't spray-bomb the room with NIX. It won't do any good. NIX is only really effective when in comes into contact with the mites and then dries. It is NOT a systemic poison like Vapona. Its DOES NOT work by vapours, so bombing the room with it will only make the room smell nice (like FeBreeze, LOL!), but it won't kill mites. The reason that NIX is so darn effective is that it is used as a LOCAL agent. Ignoring its engineered use and trying to make it a general agent will only result in negative effects.

But to each their own.

Tim_Cranwill

11-11-04, 06:36 PM

I wasn't sure if it made a difference or not but when Tony told me about it, it sounded like a neat idea. Do you think it's a just waste or do you think it's a bad idea?

Linds

11-11-04, 06:43 PM

I'd be more than happy to let 'it go', whatever 'it' is. It's baffled me that you allowed my comments (which MANY other people have shared similar comments, though nobody jumped on them) to escalate in to such a drama-fest. It's not that I'm not capable of letting things go, but I'm also a firm believer in defending myself. I'm not the one continuously pointing fingers in faces, sending accusatory PM's, attempting to dimish anyone, or being downright rude. I have been the one to remain civil in this, despite your jumping all over me. It's obvious you had problems with me to start, or you would've had the same issues with half the other people that had the same things to say. Despite everything you've thrown at me, I have refrained from becoming personal with you, despite all your personal remarks, assumptions, and accusations about myself. I'm removing myself from this thread, as I cannot remain so civil and abiding any longer, and will most certainly step outside the expectations of a mod.

Good day.

BOAS_N_PYTHONS

11-11-04, 07:02 PM

EVERYONE:

Geeez I guess my 1st pail of water on this thread did not work....lol.

Time to call in the fire department and drown the thread....lol.

As for the humidifier subject its not a treatment I put into play 24/7. I stated its use not its parameters. Being I can get rather lenghty on my posts if I was to give out all my experience and thoughts on this and other subjects I best call a publishing company and write my own book already. I stated using a humidifier but my mistake was I forgot to mention parameters and time schedules and so on.

In simple terms I use it as a maintenance tool say every 2 months, once for 8 hours, the rooms are large and breathe well. Because mites are such a unique pest controlling them to the animal infected and the cage itself is just useless. The do find ways to escape. So what I do is spray everything and I mean everything. Then with a humidier in the middle of a room say 24 x 30 feet covering controlling 70 mid size cages I let it run for 8 hours to catch any pests. My rooms are vinyl and clear looking this method actually has results. They are always clean (I' m a neat freak) and when you do a washing of the floor and see mites where they should not be then you realize the distance they travelled trying to escape. I have no fear of mites because my system stops them before they enter my facility now no matter at what stage.

If you have carpet and your room is not controlled with a sytem to stop mites from exploring I recommend using a new clean vacuum bag on your machine, drop in a moth ball and do a thorough cleaning of the room and the house. Then spray the that room in NIX and the animals and cages and all surrounds rooms at the the edges and corners of walls. Being the vacuum did most of the work, do this for a few days in a week and you got the war in your favour.

Again both NIX and moth balls are toxic so work fast and have area aired out as well, this is my method and my animals if they could talk would say "thank you".....lol.

Now watch me get bashed on this system.........:monkey:

If your a mite, let me tell you now...you lost the war!

Cya...

Tony

wetlander

11-11-04, 07:18 PM

Great Thread. THis is one of the better and more educational threads I have read on ssnakess for awhile. Keep up the great posts!

For reptiles other than snakes there is a home made remedy that I have used. I used this on a wild caught water snake (this was over 20 years ago) that was just crawling in mites. After 3 treatments ... no more mites.

Mix 50% castor oil and 50 % rubbing alcohol. Coat the reptile in this mixture (avoid mouth and eyes, although a Q-tip can be used to get close). Leave the mix on for 15 minutes then bath the reptile. Make sure the cage is thoroughly cleaned before reintroducing. Repeat every 2 days until all mites are gone. The oil smothers the mites and the alcohol helps to kill them and improve viscosity.

This does take a little longer but it is less poisonous

Doug

ydnic

11-11-04, 07:19 PM

ridiculous...

it seems to me that 1 out of every 5 important informative posts that turn up on this forum turn in to an argument....

my mother always said 'if you don`t have some thing nice to say..blah, blah, blah'

Drama aside this was a GREAT thread - being a 'nub' - lol I found a lot of important information that I will definatley need to be successful - thats what I love so much about this hobbie - learning

I have never done much with isolation, segrigation, or quarentining
The only things that have been quarentines are rescue, or something from a pet store that I just had to have. I really figured that since everyone had their own rubber maid and were inspected for mites I was cool.

I guess I just took it for granted that purchasing from another breeder - that that breeder would treat their animals just like I would treat mine - and that a more experianced breeder would obviously have a better set up and understanding of care than I would.

By the Way...I just purchased some kings from Tim last week i DIDN`T quarentine them because I thought I was buying from a responisble breeder which I still believe. (although I now know there is a lot more to take into considderation)

Tim thanx a lot they are doing great - fiesty little piggies!

Anyways thanx everyone!