Rattle Snake

[cegh2o]

Hi, I'm new to this site so please bear with me.
I am trying to find anyone in the Muskogee/ McAlester, OK area that buys rattle snakes. My son caught one today( yes, it is alive) and would like to sell it. It is about 41/2 ft. long and has 7 buttons on it. Don't know what kind of rattlesnake it is.
Can anyone help?

[bistrobob85]

I would actually release it... I dont think there will be much people interested for WC ( wild caught ) rattlers...

[bistrobob85]

Or people encouraging kids to go chasing rattlers either!!!

[cegh2o]

My son is 30 yrs. old...not quite a child. He caught it at work.

[Shad0w]

Id highly recommend letting the snake go..

I highly doubt anyone would pay much for a WC adult rattler that Im sure is infested with internal and external parasites.

[JD@reptiles]

your snake is MAYBE worth 30 bucks, and thats a big maybe. serious injury or even death can be caused by the snake, and only trained people should handle it. if you get tagged by it and you dont know what species it is, you wont only have thousands of dollars in medical bills to pay but, possibly local venomous fines and maybe fines from fish and wildlife for "poaching" a native... your safest bet is to let it go, its not worth risking selling a somthing for 30 bucks if you can get fined 10,000 or more.

[crimsonking]

Yep. Best to set it free. Too many troubles may come of selling a rattlesnake there.
"It is unlawful to engage in any commercial activities involving any indigenous species or subspecies collected from the wild in Oklahoma unless otherwise specified" (OAC 800:25-7-7.1)
"Rattlesnakes harvested from the wild may be sold during the open season to licensed commercial or non-commercial wildlife breeders only."
"A valid hunting license is required to harvest rattlesnakes.." (OAC 800:25-7-7.3)
To my knowlwge, open season was from March1 through June 30 as well.
Laws change, but as you can see, it is possible you may have violated one or two already so...
Just a heads up.
We'd still love to see a picture of it! Taken from a safe distance of course!
There's plenty of danger in releasing too, so be careful!
:Mark

[mudflats]

I also have a problem with someone trying to make a quick buck of a potentially dangerous animal, as said. To many people around here go taking wild animals out of ther ehomes to sell them to a 3ft by 3ft glass enclosure. I think its awful, if you want to make what that rattler is worth, go mow a lawn. Other than that it belongs it the wild.

[SCReptiles]

Sorry dude, reptile keepers tend to be huge whiners! No one has answered your question. If you have anything other then a western diamondback, then at 4 foot plus, you will be able to sell it. If it is a WDB, then there is no market. They are just too common. I know full well you are not going to release it back at his work, and releasing it anywhere else would probably mean its death. Try the Classified ads at www.venomousreptiles.org and at www.Faunaclassifieds.com to sell it. Get me a pic and I will tell you what it is worth. If all you have is a WDB, the only place you will probably be able to place it is a venom lab. The nearest to you will probably be Harrison over in KY. You and your son be careful with it!!!

[cegh2o]

THANK-YOU! FINALLY A POLITE ANSWER. I CAME TO THIS SITE BECAUSE IT SAID ON THE SEARCH PAGE THAT BUYERS COULD BE FOUND ON THIS SITE. I APPRECIATE YOUR REPLY.

[Tim and Julie B]

Originally posted by cegh2o
My son is 30 yrs. old...not quite a child. He caught it at work.

LMAO ........... I am not sure if he was picturing a seven year old with a snake hook or what but that's funny. Good luck with the rattler. I would pick the safest place possible and release it, if possible. Chuck knows his stuff so I am sure you have your species answer by now. Good luck. TB

[Vanan]

Sorry dude, reptile keepers tend to be huge whiners!

Tis the sad truth. I guess that makes me a whiner for saying that too! :eek: Glad you got the answers you needed. Good luck with it.

[Matt]

anything for a quick dollar, right.

its true reptile people are whiners, unfortunately, it seems we lack alot of morals too, just my opinion though.

[SCReptiles]

Come on Matt, you know that every reptile in captivity, including the ones you keep either came from the wild, or in the lineage of wild reptiles that were collected at some point for profit. This guy found the snake at his work site. No way the company is gona allow it to stay where it was. I would far father this guy collect the snake and make $20 then to cut its head off.

[Matt]

Chuck, point taken, and I agree with you. Im not anti-wild caught by any means.

My only point is that it just seems like finding a snake (without even having any knowledge of herps) and wanting to turn it for profit quicky isnt something that I can agree with.

granted, if its not about the money and your just worried about the snake, then fine.....why not give it to someone who can take care of it (free of charge)?
I worked with Jim in KY at the zoo, i know he would take it!

my biggest concern is that you have to be careful selling hots (as we both are aware) and I dont agree with someone that cant even ID the snake selling it.

but like I said, its just my opinion!

[JD@reptiles]

hey, heres somthing for you guys to think about. They are in the wild for a reason. not just to be kept as pets or display animals.

And as for the poacher dude, you can go get yourself bit.

[CARLiTO_]

Originally posted by JD@reptiles
hey, heres somthing for you guys to think about. They are in the wild for a reason. not just to be kept as pets or display animals.

And as for the poacher dude, you can go get yourself bit.


Uh, last time i checked all snakes were in the wild.

[JD@reptiles]

huh???????????????????

[JD@reptiles]

by that are you trying to say all species can be found in the wild?

[JD@reptiles]

you know what, i went to some hybernation dens agian this year that has rattlesnakes, man, i could have cashed in big, i found over 300 babies and 100 adults. worth about 30-40 bucks each. sheesh, with that money i could have bought myself a NICE car. maybe i will become a fulltime poacher in the future.

[concept3]

hey JD like SCReptiles said they cannot release it back at work and releasing an animal from one locality to anotherone even close by can be detrimental to the locality you release it into. So either this guy kills the snake or sells it for 30 bucks. If you care about the snake so much you know that it will be bettewr off in the hands of a collector.

[SCReptiles]

Point taken Matt, look at my first post. I suggested Jim if it’s a WDB.

JD, I used to think you were smarter then you really are. If you really believe this snake belongs only in the wild, then I demand you immediately release all reptiles you are keeping.

[JD@reptiles]

i guess im back to being a stupid kid.

though i did miss the point about people at his work not wanting the snake around. that is a good point. but if theres one, theres probably more.

I do believe this snake should be set free, but now its getting kinda late in the year. but what ever, its just another snake right? theres lots more out there. you have been in this hobby longer than i have, so i will listen to what you have to say.

[~Suntiger~]

You know, I saw a skunk near my neighbour's place the other day. Sure, it may be where it occurs naturally doing whatever comes naturally to it, but I'm sure the neighbour doesn't want it there. Maybe I'll go catch it and sell it to make a few bucks. It would really be best for this animal to be taken out of its habitat and confined, plus I'll make some money. :rolleyes:

COME ON people, would it be so difficult to release it NEAR the workplace? Odds are it was there for sometime before it was even noticed!
Who cares if people don't want it there, what they don't know didn't hurt them before. Put the animal back where it belongs: in it's home.

[Katt]

I think you Mr. Hurd are missing Jordan's point.

It isn't right to take something out of the wild and expect to make a quick buck out of it. If it's alright for one guys, it's alright for the next and that starts the ball rolling on over collecting.

If this guy came on here and said, the same thing, BUT instead of trying to sell it, was offering it to someone free, who could take care of it, then maybe people wouldn't be upset.

It's the whole, let's take what we want and make some money off of something we had nothing in the raising of taking care of.

And since Mr. Hurd can be so petty as to be insulting, I shall say, I never thought you were smart at all, Chuck.

[BoidsUnlimited]

I would say the Venom Lab would be a great idea!

But if you CAN get a picture, PM me with it. Because if it is a WDB I would be willing to take it off your hands, I have some friends who keep WDBs.

Thanks,

B.U.

PS - OR email @ BoidsUnlimited@hotmail.com

[mudflats]

This is just about the funniest post i have read all month. SCR if i am not understanding you right then give me a heads up but if i am, you have the most asinine way of thinking. Of course a wild caught snake belongs in the wild, duh, its common sence dude. Also i have caught and released snakes plenty of times, take the snake a few miles in the woods and release it, having a 2 option way of thinking on this is Stupid. Either sell it or kill it, LMAO.
Just relase it in the backwoods. Take the money you would get out of it and put it towards gas money and release it.
Back to SCR, there are species that belong in the wild, those would be wild animals. There are species that belong in captivity those are captive born animals. Sure these all came from wild species. But is it right to take a animal out of the wild for a quick buck, NO.
Thought you had more experience and knoledge then what you do.
Every hot i catch i release to another area, its all common sence..Selling it should not even be an option.

[Matt]

Originally posted by mudflats

Every hot i catch i release to another area, its all common sence..

Im just going to make a quick sidenote here...

remember people, when you catch snakes you just cant relocate them wherever.
Its been proven by research that if you let a snake go more than about 200 meters from where it was caught there is a low chance of survival. They use the same hibernacula every year and they have small home ranges, so by relocating more than that distance we probably arent doing it a favor at all.

just a side note, Im sure we all knew that, but i wanted to add it.....dont go picking up snakes and moving them just anywhere!

[JD@reptiles]

yeah matt, but why not release it 200 meters closer to what ever forest there is by the work... i would understand if it were in the middle of the city or somthing, but c'mon.

[mudflats]

Matt it all depends on where you are located. Here in the south, i have located animals miles upon miles. One example is a little pigmy rattlesnake from miami in dade county. All the way up here to central florida. I let him go in the fenced in yard ( 3 acres or so) and saw him every now and then, until one day he must have escaped. But then again snakes here really dont hibernate. But in this case you are correct, although i never knew that would affect then like that, thanks for the info. Jon

[SCReptiles]

COME ON people, would it be so difficult to release it NEAR the workplace? Odds are it was there for sometime before it was even noticed!
Who cares if people don't want it there, what they don't know didn't hurt them before. Put the animal back where it belongs: in it's home.

99 out of 100 people would have killed it on site. Luckily, the 1/100 found it and removed it. If you put it back, you sign its death certificate.

And since Mr. Hurd can be so petty as to be insulting, I shall say, I never thought you were smart at all, Chuck.

Of course, I take that as a compliment from you, anything else would mean we think alike. =)

This is just about the funniest post i have read all month. SCR if i am not understanding you right then give me a heads up but if i am, you have the most asinine way of thinking. Of course a wild caught snake belongs in the wild, duh, its common sence dude. Also i have caught and released snakes plenty of times, take the snake a few miles in the woods and release it, having a 2 option way of thinking on this is Stupid. Either sell it or kill it, LMAO.
Just relase it in the backwoods.

Most research concludes that when you relocate adult pit vipers they never assimilate and die within the first year. So, you have killed, I mean relocated plenty of snakes? Good work. Few more like you, we won’t have to worry about collecting snakes, all will be dead. As with Katt, I am quite glad you think my logic is asinine. Reassures me that I am right.

[JD@reptiles]

cant stand being wrong?

[SCReptiles]

If you are referring to me, I have no problems admitting I am wrong, when proven wrong with facts, thus far the only facts that have been presented came from Matt and I, who are in accord on this subject. Everything else has just been opinion, and opinions form people who don’t even study or keep hots, based on that, I don’t see that I have been proven wrong in the least? How do you reason that I am in the wrong?

[JD@reptiles]

the snake could have been moved a little ways away.... and if he did have to take it out of the wild, which he didn't, he could give it to somone experienced instead of trying to sell it. perhaps a local zoo or a local herper. and you were the one that made the presumption that the snake would be killed... and there would also be many other rattlesnakes around that area... so taking this one out and selling it wont make too much of a differience for the safety of the people there.

just a thought.

[SCReptiles]

Moving the snake was not a viable option. A. You move it a little from the site, which is obviously a populated area and someone kills it. B. You move it far away and it kills itself trying to find its way home. Neither of those is a real option now is it?

[JD@reptiles]

you chuck, have no idea how the area was set up. for all you know his work could be in the middle of a forest somwhere, when moving it just a couple hundred yards if that, the snake will be fine. and there is gonna be more around. should they take them all out of the area?

[SCReptiles]

Yes, all venomous snakes that are found in populated areas will have to be removed to save their lives. That is a shame, I don’t like it, but its true. That is the reason we are losing the eastern diamondbacks. People continue expanding into what was once their territory.

[JD@reptiles]

so do you agree yet that its not right to sell this animal? because if he really wants it out of the area he can give it to a zoo or a keeper. see my point? the guy wants to make a quick buck, and we both know it.

[mudflats]

SCR i apologize. I have always been told this was in fact for only places that get to cold, where the snakes need to hibernate. I have caught many pigmy rattlesnakes and relocated them to nature preserves seeing the same individuals a few times healthy and fine, ( thanks to a few free taggings). I guess those where just one of a few that make it. Now is this in all venomous species or just pitvipers? I feel awful for potentially killing all of the species i have relocated. I guess it is going to take more thought next time i have to relocate a venomous species.

[Mustangrde1]

Im going to take a stab at this.

I field collect numerous species some for my collection some for friends some just for picture and release. It would be very difficult to Harm certain species wild numbers based souly on field collection.

Habitat loss, Roads, Human pleasure activities and deaths related and directly caused by humans does far more damage to wild populations yearly then any field collections. With Habitat loss being probably the most destructive force.

Field collection is viable way to procure animals for ones collection where legal or done legally under state laws based on quotas if any apply. Why pay 100 DOLLARS fort an animal when you can collect what you need yourself at a fraction of the cost.

An example is. I wish to breed some Red Ratsnakes yet the local petstore has them for 69.99 so for me to purchase 1.2 breeders would cost me 210.00. Yet i could easily take one night and 15$ in gas to collect three Red Ratsnakes. Thats a no brainer. I will not effect the wild population by any stretch of the imagination.

Yes I know I couldf talk to a private breeder and pic them up for probably 75$ for the three CBB but again 15$ vs 75$. cost effectivly the 15$ always wins plus I get the joy of seeing many other species while looking for them.

As to other Wild Caught animals. There are many very difficult to find animals that rarely are offered for sale or breed so your religated to Imports for exoctics. As to native species However there may be few people actually breeding them due to the low dollar value associated with the reptile thus again field collection may be your only solution.

As to reintrodution after release I will let these three link speak for themselves.

http://coloherp.org/cb-news/Vol-28/cbn-10/RamblingReptiles.html

http://www.cnah.org/forum/display_message.asp?mid=212

http://ag.arizona.edu/OALS/urbanization/reptiles.html

There are many more surveys and data on the subject but from most reports even the most miniscule of movement to our eyes is giagantic for them.

[~Suntiger~]

I will not effect the wild population by any stretch of the imagination.

Sure, maybe one person taking a few snakes that they're surely entitled to isn't going to have a huge impact on a single species' population.

What about the hundreds of other boneheads that are also operating under this assumption!?!

Simple mathematics!!!

[Mustangrde1]

Given the difficulty in locating reptiles in the field even on the best of conditions it would be very difficult to wipe a species clean. How many are seriously collecting reptiles every day of the year?
You paint a picture of Hundreds even thousands of people collecting every day and that is just not the case. First Field collectors make very little money off the reptiles they collect and sell, thus making it very unproductive from a monetary stand point to do it. Also you must take in to account Laws regulating species and possession and also times of year when factoring in your data. In any of the states or countries where you have Snow or harsh weather conditions for months on end you will not see much if any collecting. Even in the prime collection months your time spent in the field is regulated by other social and financial obligations thus limiting time spent in the field.
Not everyone is collecting these mass amounts you lead us to believe they are by your statements. Also factoring in for CBB breeding and the price wholesale operations will pay a field collector it is again not financially beneficial to any person to try and make a full time occupation just collecting. Now IM not saying over collection cannot be a problem if it is done to species of special concern or threatened nature but then those species are protected or regulated. Also some states and countries have laws forbidding collection or ownership of native species thus again limiting the collecting.
Anyone who believes for one minute that every snake you see in a pet shop is CB or CBB is a fool. No pet shop could maintain a profitable business by selling animals that the breeders know they themselves can get higher dollar prices for. Economically speaking if Joe Petshop owner was to buy a 100 lot of CBB red ratsnakes at say 15 dollars each he would then need to raise the price to at least $40 each to gain profit worth selling the animal. Yet he can buy 100 lot of wc for 3 to 5 dollars each and sell them at the same $40 increasing his profit as a business man which is smarter? Same is true of Ball Pythons do you really think their is that many being breed in captivity yearly to supply the massive demand for this species? Of course not there is roughly 50,000 of them imported yearly and sold off in lots to pet stores for about 2.25 to 5.00 each. Those are but two of the more popular snakes.
Also again how is someone to get snakes that are exotic or not readily breed in captivity if not by some sort of wild collection. In a perfect world yes every snake would be CBB and everyone can get what they want. It is not a perfect world however and as such practices that to one are barbaric, to many others are perfectly legitimate so long as proper conservation and restraint is used. There is no snake in captivity now that does not have its roots from a wild decent thus anyone who owns any snake or reptile has in a since contributed to WILD COLLECTION. Without your demand for something there would be no supply needed!

[JD@reptiles]

Originally posted by SCReptiles
Everything else has just been opinion, and opinions form people who don’t even study or keep hots, based on that, I don’t see that I have been proven wrong in the least?0


I missed that part, a lot more people keep and study hots than you may relize. most people are smart enough to know not to go around advertising it thinking they are cool, espishly with pictures of themselves wrangling hots in there avatar. *cough*chuck*cough*


And even though it has nothing to do with what this debate is over.... sorting hot keepers from non hot keepers means nothing, it means you know how to use hooks... i learned how to do that when i was 13...

[Cake]

Hmmmmm....Collecting animals for the pet trade is not seriously affecting the wild populations....Im not to sure what you are basing this statement on, and I would like to know as it is obviously false.

I seem to remember someone collecting about half the population of wood turtles found in two of the larger populations in southern Ontario a couple years back. These population have not recovered, nor will they. As for one person doing it, you are not the only person, dont be nieve enough to think so, this is the same kind of thought that has pushed many speices to the brink of extinction.

As for the rattlesnake in question that started this debate. You cannot simply relocate and expect it to survive, as others have pointed out. Furthermore pit vipers are known to return to their home ranges after relocation, unless moved a substantial distance away, and this will most likely result in the snakes death. Leaving it where it was found will also most likely result in it meeting an umtimly end with a blade of a shovel. the best solution is to donate this animal to a venom lab, zoo or hot keeper that is willing to accept it.

[JD@reptiles]

hey. the farmer where i found the dens didn't like the rattlesnakes there. should he kill them all? take them all out of the wild?

[Mustangrde1]

Hmmmmm....Collecting animals for the pet trade is not seriously affecting the wild populations....Im not to sure what you are basing this statement on, and I would like to know as it is obviously false.

Please re-read the entire post. Never was it said it cant be done. In fact I said Now IM not saying over collection cannot be a problem if it is done to species of special concern or threatened nature but then those species are protected or regulated. Certanly in the case you mentioned the turtles it was a clear case of over collection and there are other such cases such as the Eastern Indigo and the Crotalus willardi to name but a few. Again though I never said it could not be a problem. I pointed out however to the contrary that so long as proper conservation and restraint is used

Where proper conservation and limits are placed species do well. However again the most destructive and potentially species extinction threat is Habitat loss. So my information was not false as i made no implications that collection COULD NOT harm a species.

As for Zoo's or Venom Labs. Most Zoos do not take in animals especially those of a suspicious nature IE wild collected as they may introduce some very nasty things to thier collections. Venom Labs are more and more becoming extremely picky about the animals in which they aquire as well. Looking for cbb themselves or very local specific animals for certain venom traits that they may be working with. So the last option is finding a keeper who will take it in which may or may not be a viable option either. So your left to the sell of the animal to try and save its life.

If you are so head set against field collecting then You should not own any pet as by your demand for a product supports the need for its supply. Field collection is a right we all have even if you do not like where its legal of course. Opinions may vary and thats fine but so is someone collecting responcibly and legally.

[M_surinamensis]

What a tangled mess of half truths and emotional garbage this thread is...

First! The relocation thing has been hammered down pretty tightly, so I'll just chime in briefly to say that it's true and then some... Moving herps is not just dangerous to the individual animal, but entire populations of similar species in the area you moved them to and generally very very illegal. While the strong affilitation with a microhabitat that crotalids have shown isn't always present in every herp species there are numerous rather delicate factors that can be upset by introdcing an animal from an area it did not originate. Adding animals (especially adults) is just bad news all around and only the extremely ignorant would see it as a viable alternative.

Secondly... since field collection has been brought up. Collection for the pet trade has not endangered or even seriously impacted a single herptile species' wild population. Ever. Hasn't happened, isn't likely to happen and I'll even go so far as to say that it's an impossibility. First would be a small and reasonable amount of time devoted to determining the species and the legalities of collection for sale. Sounds like the first person to do that was Chuck, who is not only capable of determining the species via a photograph but could and would also tell the individual the legalities of collection and further potential sale. There are a number of participants in this thread who simply assumed that it was "poaching" and painted the collector in a negative light with little or nofactual basis for making this determination and, it seems, a rather weak grasp of the concept of field collection and species population management as a whole.

So, legalities up in the air. Fine, address it politely.

Now the moral aspect... What a load of treehugging bunnykissing ecoliberal GARBAGE I have seen on this thread. I mean my god, do you people have even the slightest idea what you're rambling on about when you type? Because right now all I see are a couple people who got it right and a lot more who have their feet in their mouths and just don't realize it yet. Wild collection of animals when done legally doesn't hurt anything, in fact it HELPS populations (albeit indirectly). Every state (and I'd guess but am not sure providence up there in Soviet Canukustan) employs state biologists who constantly monitor populations of native species. There is a certain population which can be supported with avaliable resources and a certain cut-off point which is needed to maintain a viabvle breeding population... and then this whole big middleground of the population which constitute viable levels, neither underpopulated nor overpopulated. In most areas for most species there's a certain "bag limit" which is allowed without a commercial collection permit and then there are permits issued for numbers above and beyond that (expensive permits which get dropped directly into the coffers for maintaining wildlife areas, when you pay for your treehugging granola eating permit, then you can have a say, until then, cram it). The population is monitored to ensure that it's not damaged (both locally and internationally, CITES tells a very different story about pet trade collection and it's impact on habitat and population than animal rights morons), valuable revenue is generated to ensure habitat preservation and combat a REAL threat and animals are commercially or privately avaliable for those of us who actually like reptiles and want to enjoy them in our lives. Furthermore since the majority of herps aren't apex predators and their natural population inhibitors are going to feel more of an effect from things like habitat encroachment, it's oftentimes beneficial for both the individual animals collected and the population left wild for some trimming to be done.

There's a big fat stupid myth sitting in the herptile trade about collection having a negative impact on wild populations. It's promulgated as truth by the same people who claimed that rainforest destruction would have us all axphyxiating by the mid nineties and that it's wrong to own dogs or test potential cancer drugs on lab mice or eat a hamburger. The agenda for these groups and individuals isn't a positive one for the animals involved, their goals are strictly negative where people are concerned.

As to this specific animal and this specific situation... Chuck was the first one to approach it correctly- identify the species, determine the legalities, suggest an appropriate solution with the best interests of the animal in mind (and actually being educated about what those best interests are). If collection and sale is legal then what's the complaint? If the collection was illegal, suggest the appropriate way to keep the animal alive and in good hands while complying with the law. No emotional baggage or absolute idiotic nonsense about how wild collection is killing wild populations needed.

As a bit of an aside, I challenge the granolagroup here to show me a single herptile which has undergone an irreversable population change due to collection for the pet trade and back it up with a reliable source. I'm not going to accept any of Kaplan's crap and lies about ball pythons either, I want legitimate sources.

How many times did the apparant naysayers have to admit that they didn't read something right or know something important? A few... "Oh, I didn't read that it was collected at a work site." "Oh, I didn't realize relocation was probably lethal." "Oh, I'm just starting a moral crusade about a subject I know buggerall about because I'm not very bright but think I have the ethical high ground and see a chance to jump on someone."

Glad to see the server speed was fixed by the way, I may have to start posting more often again. It was hell there for awhile with pages failing to load and making site use seem like 28k dialup when I was on a cable modem. Happy that was worked out, although the association with Howard Fluker isn't exactly a positive sign.

[M_surinamensis]

Oh and Scott... There are populations which are no longer legally allowed to be collected but you know as well as I do that collection isn't what caused the population problems to begin with. Indigos aren't in some trouble because they were a popular species for pet trade collection, they're in trouble because of their reproductive rate, adult size and habitat destruction. While I apreciate that you're trying to remain polite about this issue and bring these people gently to a better understanding... That's flat out wrong and you know it. There is not a single (herp) species which has ever been put in danger because of pet trade collection. Every example of a species where collection was even a minor issue has a larger and more insidious factor which caused the damage first and foremost.

[Mustangrde1]

I differ with you on that Seamus Indigos Breeding and Habitat loss were in fact part of the reason but so was the over collection for the pet trade . But in a since your correct as well with all factors included harvesting alone would not have destroyed or threatened that species. it was a combination of factors.

[M_surinamensis]

I think you acknowledge what I mean though Scott, collection was not initially a factor in the population problem. Once the problem existed, collection was briefly an issue as it was collection of an unregulated species which was already experiencing a numbers problem because of other sources, rather quickly patched over legally with methods which were, at the time, relatively new in their herp-related application at a time when funding for population studies was less than it currently is.

So my point being... collection has never endangered a species unto itself and it's absurd to even hint that it would, could or has been the case, as your (our) opposition on this matter did.

[Mustangrde1]

Yes and keeping in mind that the methods of 20 years ago or more that were used for biological information gatherring has for the most part been updated or progressed to a point that population density studies are far more accurate now then in the past.

Also reintroduction of species through captive breeding in many species is now shoing much great viability to return many species back to managable and in some cases harvestable levels again.

As for species that are in a concerned light the reintroduction process under proper management with Biologist heading the way. Not groups with their own agendas shows great promise to resitablishing many populations back to thier native ranges.

[JD@reptiles]

wow.. i was mainly pissed about the guy wanting to make a quick buck off of the snake... this is going far into detail, but its some pretty interesting stuff...

but your right. nothing has dangerously become endangered due to collecting, they shut off export as soon as it gets to that line from doing okay | to becoming a species at risk... which is good, but is it worth it coming to that point?

So even if it is habitat destruction thats killing a species off, is the collecting gonna help on top of that? i understand that having and collecting these species means once these are gone from the wild, that you can do a re introductin, but we already have CB lines of these animals as well, the field collecting days should be over. you people shouldn't be going out there to collect, more like clean up garbage, plant tree's. if you love them so much, you should try to save them.

Just another thought,

Granola-eating-tree-hugger

[Mustangrde1]

Jordan.

I am actually workign on a law to re-write the Indigo permit system for allowing persons to own these animals for the soul purpose of reintrodution.

Reintroducing Cbb lines would in short be detremental to the gene pool. I was when i started working on it think that { hey we just use cbb already available} Unfortunately after much research in to the subject and speaking with several people I found out just how bad that can be. It would be far better to collect a limited number of wild species of breeder size and release thier offspring to preserve the gene pool of the locations you plan to collect or reintroduce.

Thats the short of it. when im finished with all the paperwork and refferances etc etc I will post it for all to read. Dont expect it for atleast another month or two at least. It is complex to say the least and part of it being in dealing with politicians its also frustrating. Something though I feel needs to be addressed.

[JD@reptiles]

thats really cool man. im glad to hear that.

[Mustangrde1]

Want my headache lol. Most the Info is on TRR in the news section

[JD@reptiles]

i will check it out. but i like the herpers who keep and try to help wild populations.

[~Suntiger~]

It'd be a pity if the long-winded wordy ones were the only ones people listened to...

According to the Humane Society of the United States :

"Each year the United States imports nearly two million live reptiles and exports about nine million. This poorly regulated trade harms wild populations and their habitats. Poor capture techniques, compounded by poor shipping methods or inadequate care, kill many reptiles before they reach the pet store. An estimated 90% of wild-caught reptiles die in their first year of captivity because of physical trauma prior to purchase or because their owners cannot meet their complex dietary and habitat needs."
http://www.hsus.org/ace/12045

"...captive breeding fails to address the leading causes of wild reptile population decline—habitat loss and the pet trade. Contrary to popular belief, the breeding of exotic reptiles in captivity can actually have a negative impact on the species in the wild. History has shown that the increased popularity of exotic animals as pets, whether wild caught or captive bred, often leads to a subsequent increase in the illegal trafficking of their wild counterparts within the U.S. and abroad."
http://crowlove.com/captivitysucks/reptiles.htm

P.S. I don't even LIKE granola!

[M_surinamensis]

HSUS isn't a reliable source, they are a PeTA style rabidly antihuman group. What else have you got?

[~Suntiger~]

However, I will say hat's off to you on the indigo bit.

[Mustangrde1]

Brief reply. As seamus stated HSUS is not reliable with thier information its more like political propiganda. With the very tough laws and inspection of animals being imported and exported and the citations and jail times awarded for neglect the HSUS really is way off. More to come tomorrow

[~Suntiger~]

"Millions of live reptiles are sold each year for the pet trade. In 2001 alone, the United States imported just under 2 million live reptiles. Of these, over 500,000 were green iguanas (Iguana iguana) from Central and South America. Other species commonly found in the pet trade include the boa constrictor (Boa constrictor), ball python (Python regius), panther chameleon (Chameleo pardalis), and red-footed tortoises (Geochelone carbonaria). The United States annually exports more than 8 million red-eared slider turtles (Trachemys scripta elegans), the world's most commonly traded live reptile.

What is the United States' role in world reptile trade?
The United States is a major participant in world reptile trade, and imports an average of 2 million live reptiles and 6 million reptile products each year. Most live reptiles imported into the United States are imported for the pet trade."

http://www.worldwildlife.org/trade/faqs_reptile.cfm

[M_surinamensis]

And this latest one barely mentions collection as being a threat (calling collection for multiple reasons a cummulative threat in a single sentance which encompasses folk medicine and agricultural collection with the pet trade) and doesn't give any specific numbers about wild populations or the effect this collection supposedly has.

(Pssssst, here's a hint, rather than checking links from animal rights sites, which are all political propaganda and LIES, why not check the CITES page? It's accurate information from a reliable source... or how about contacting the fish and wildlife authorities in your area and actually asking?)

[mudflats]

PETA, HSUS, or any other type of group like this has absolutley no informatonal vlaue what so ever. As stated they are liers, and would love to have the world in a plastic celery eating bubble. Aswell as PETA being considered a terrorist group to some extents.

[Mustangrde1]

If you are looking for good groups to cite try C.I.T.E.S or USF&W Groups that actually have more Biologist then Lawyers and Political lobbiest.

[Mustangrde1]

This poorly regulated trade harms wild populations and their habitats. Poor capture techniques, compounded by poor shipping methods or inadequate care, kill many reptiles before they reach the pet store

Pure Propaganda by animal rights activist. In fact the reptile trade as is the entire animal trade industry is regulated and actually very well. When animals are imported most importers try to acclimate them to some degree and sell them ASAP. they do not try to hold animals for long periods of time as their profit decreases with every day through feedings, watering, lighting etc. The actual death rate of animals upon reception buy the importer is very low. It is not in the exporters best business choice either to send animals in poor shape or he/she will loose a client in the importer.

Not one species protected by CITES has become extinct as a result of trade since the Convention entered into force and, for many years, CITES has been among the largest conservation agreements in existence, with now 166 Parties.

Poor capture techniques, compounded by poor shipping methods or inadequate care, kill many reptiles before they reach the pet store. An estimated 90% of wild-caught reptiles die in their first year of captivity because of physical trauma prior to purchase or because their owners cannot meet their complex dietary and habitat needs."

Yes, some capture techniques are poor yet those are very isolated cases especially when you take the mass volume in to account and that in itself is known to the groups you are quoting yet it fits their bill for their propaganda. They try to combine many differing view points and isolated incidents to fit their propaganda's needs. When the facts of any one and all their information combined and analyzed does not support them. In fact biological data and legitimate information actually contradicts their information. Yet they would not dare point to references with credible sources and statistics that have been compiled through legitimate scientific sources. They actually when dealing especially with reptiles prey on the human emotion and its fear of reptiles by compiling data that would suggest them to be deadly or a health hazard on compare to the black plague.

Shipping on the other hand and the laws that govern it are very strict and the receiver in the US can and is fined or jailed in some cases for improperly packed animals that is a fact. Check the Local and Federal laws regarding it. Yet again the group you quote adds this to their propaganda to inflate it and cause it to look like even more destruction is being done when in fact its not true in the majority of cases. Again it is taking a minority and trying to inflate it for their use to look like it is the norm within the industry

Here are the Guidelines for transportation of Animals under CITES mind you local governments may have tougher restrictions but those involved in CITES have agreed to this method and have laws that provide criminal offenses for violations

Rp/3 – Tortoises and land turtles, snakes, lizards

1. General welfare

1.1 Reptiles should have priority over merchandise.

1.21 Only reptiles in good health should be transported.

1.3 Reptiles should not be sedated.

1.41 Reptiles of different species should not be transported in the same compartment or bag.

1.5 Unless reptiles of the same species are known to be compatible with one another, they should not be transported in the same compartment or bag.

1.6 Reptiles should be left undisturbed during transport.

1.72 Reptiles that have become sick or that have been injured during transport should receive veterinary treatment as soon as possible and, if necessary, should be humanely destroyed. A record of any such occurrences should be kept.

1.82 Sick or dead reptiles should be removed from containers, when feasible, and a record kept.

1.9 No feeding should be necessary during transport.

1.10 To avoid cross-infection, and for health and hygiene reasons, human contact with reptiles should be avoided, and they should not be housed near foodstuffs or in places to which unauthorized persons have access.

1.11 No animal should be transported with radioactive material or other substances dangerous to health.

1.12 Containers should be secured to the aircraft, rail wagon, lorry or ship to avoid any possible movement, and should at all times be maintained in a horizontal position.

2. Advance arrangements for transport

2.1 All possible precautions should be taken in advance to ensure that reptiles are not subjected to extremes of temperature or to draughts. This would necessitate planning their movement with due regard to the climatic conditions natural to them, and to the conditions prevailing at their final destination, and also those that will be encountered during transport. Particular attention should be paid to the facilities at any intermediate stops at airports, etc.

2.2 Any bags or other packing material should be destroyed after use; when containers are to be re-used they should be thoroughly cleaned and disinfected before and after use.

2.3 The estimated time of arrival should be notified in advance to the consignee, and also the route of the consignment. Adequate arrangements for its prompt collection at the final destination, and for any necessary movement at transit points, should be made in advance.

2.4 Should any delay in collection be anticipated, then advance arrangements should be made for the housing of the reptiles.

2.5 Cash on delivery facilities should not be used.

3. Container

3.1 The container should be constructed of wood, hardboard, expanded polystyrene, or other material of similar strength, and there should be an adequate framework to ensure that it is strong enough to house the reptiles and to withstand the handling involved during transport.

3.2 There should be no sharp edges or projections on the inside surfaces of the container.

3.3 If any wood preservative or paint is used on the container, care should be taken to ensure that this is not toxic or a skin irritant.

3.4 The container may comprise a number of compartments, provided that the overall size of the container is such that it may be handled without difficulty.

3.5 The container should be sufficiently shallow to prevent reptiles, such as tortoises, from climbing on top of one another, and should be of a size which prevents undue movement of the reptiles, and hence minimizes the risk of injury due to violent movement of the container.

3.6 There should be a lid completely covering the container, fitted with a secure fastening device.

3.7 To ensure an adequate flow of air at all times, ventilation holes should be provided in all walls and the lid of the container. These ventilation holes should be covered with fine gauze.

3.8 Suitable gripper bars or lifting handles should be provided.

3.9 Spacer bars of adequate size should be fitted to all walls, lid and base of the container, to ensure that there is a free flow of air to the reptiles in the event of stacking or close stowing of cargo.

4. Packing

4.1 Snakes and lizards should be placed in suitable bags which are then sealed and labelled "POISONOUS" or "NON-POISONOUS REPTILES" as appropriate. However, bags are not suitable for general transportation of chameleons (Chamaeleonidae) and lizards of a spiny nature, such as some agamas (Agamidae). The first mentioned travel better in containers furnished with a network of rigid perches and the others in containers furnished with soft, loose material into which they can burrow.

4.2 In the case of small specimens, several may be packed in the same bag.

4.3 If necessary, dampened sphagnum moss or foam chippings may be packed around the reptiles – certain species may require salt water.

4.4 The bags should be firmly attached to the container.

5. Labelling and documentation

Durable, waterproof labels should be provided as follows:

5.1 "LIVE REPTILES – DO NOT TIP", "POISONOUS" or "NON-POISONOUS", as appropriate, on all sides and top.

5.2 "THIS WAY UP", with arrows indicating the top, on all sides.

5.3 Consignor's and consignee's name, address and telephone number. Box numbers should not be used as the sole address.

5.4 Detailed list of contents: number of reptiles; scientific name and common names used in the exporting and importing countries.

5.5 Temperature range required.

5.6 Date on which reptiles were packed for transport.

5.7 Official stamp of carrier showing date of his receipt of consignment.

Durable, waterproof means of containing the following documents and other essential information should be firmly attached to the container:

5.8 Duplicate of consignor's and consignee's name, address and telephone number.

5.9 Duplicate list of contents as in 5.4.

5.10 Copies of relevant export and import licences.

5.11 Copy of valid health certificate issued in accordance with the requirements of the importing country.

5.12 Duplicate information regarding temperature range required.

On to the Deaths in captivity. OF COURSE if their needs aren't met they die. If A humans needs arn't met we die.

captive breeding fails to address the leading causes of wild reptile population decline—habitat loss and the pet trade. Contrary to popular belief, the breeding of exotic reptiles in captivity can actually have a negative impact on the species in the wild. History has shown that the increased popularity of exotic animals as pets, whether wild caught or captive bred, often leads to a subsequent increase in the illegal trafficking of their wild counterparts within the U.S. and abroad.

Interesting you only quoted half the the paragraph the author wrote here is the entire Paragraph.
One of the most common assertions made by breeders of exotic reptiles is that captive breeding is necessary to keep the animals from becoming endangered. In reality, breeding reptiles in captivity is not going to save species in the wild because most captive breeding is done outside of official conservation plans and because captive breeding fails to address the leading causes of wild reptile population decline—habitat loss and the pet trade. Contrary to popular belief, the breeding of exotic reptiles in captivity can actually have a negative impact on the species in the wild. History has shown that the increased popularity of exotic animals as pets, whether wild caught or captive bred, often leads to a subsequent increase in the illegal trafficking of their wild counterparts within the U.S. and abroad.

In reading this Paragraph he actually is addressing two points captive breeding for reintrodcution and captive breeding in an attempt to stop wild collection. Yet buy his wording has tried to make it look like its one in the same thing when in fact it is actually several subjects combined that togeather make his point appear valid.

Captive breeding for reintroduction is a very well established and viable option and is being done in many Countries currently with success. Yet his article makes it appear to not work or help.

Captivce breeding to preserves species from over collection IE captive breeding for sale. He uses as a excuse. Many Breeders are doing it for the money pure and smimple and it does have limited success in people buying wild caught which does deter the supply for wild collection.

He even says it in his next paragraph
Many private breeders feel they have accomplished something by producing offspring of rare species even if the animals they produce will never contribute to wild populations. With full respect for biologist and zoos that are actively involved in preserving habitat and breeding imperiled species with the aim of reintroduction, the role of private breeders has largely been one of a willingness to collect rare specimens, breed them, and then trade, sell, or display the offspring for self aggrandizement and/or profit.

He then goes on to the fear tactic of Salmonella by saying.
Exotic reptiles pose a significant threat to public health and safety. Reptiles are common carriers of salmonella. The Center for Disease Control estimates that 93,000 salmonella cases caused by exposure to reptiles are reported each year in the United States. In fact, salmonella associated with pet reptile ownership has been described as one of the most important public health diseases affecting more people and animals than any other single disease.

Well this is what the CDC has to say

What is salmonellosis?

Salmonellosis (sal-mohn-el-OH-sis) is a bacterial disease caused by the bacterium Salmonella. Many different kinds of Salmonella can make people sick. Most people have diarrhea, fever, and stomach pain that start 1 to 3 days after they get infected. These symptoms usually go away after 1 week. Sometimes, people have to see a doctor or go to the hospital because the diarrhea is severe or the infection has affected other organs.

Can animals transmit salmonellosis to me?

Yes, many kinds of animals can pass salmonellosis to people. Usually, people get salmonellosis by eating contaminated food, such as chicken or eggs. However, animals can carry Salmonella and pass it in their feces (stool). Therefore, people can also get salmonellosis if they do not wash thier hands after touching the feces of animals. Reptiles (lizards, snakes, and turtles), baby chicks, and ducklings are especially likely to pass salmonellosis to people. Dogs, cats, birds (including pet birds), horses, and farm animals can also pass Salmonella in their feces.

Some people are more likely than others to get salmonellosis. A person's age and health status may affect his or her immune system, increasing the chances of getting sick. People who are more likely to get salmonellosis include infants, children younger than 5 years old, organ transplant patients, people with HIV/AIDS, and people receiving treatment for cancer. Special advice is available for people who are at greater risk than others of getting this disease from animals.


How can I protect myself from salmonellosis?

After contact with animal feces (stool), wash your hands with soap and running water.
Wash your hands with soap and running water after touching reptiles or any objects and surfaces that a reptile has also touched.
If you have a compromised immune system, avoid contact with reptiles, baby chicks, and ducklings.
If you have a compromised immune system, be extra cautious when visiting farms and contacting farm animals, including animals at petting zoos.

Now with that information you will note that other sources are definitely present in the households not just reptiles so even the CDC cannot positively say its due to reptiles when other factors are included that may cause this salmonella poisoning including factors outside the house.

"Millions of live reptiles are sold each year for the pet trade. In 2001 alone, the United States imported just under 2 million live reptiles. Of these, over 500,000 were green iguanas (Iguana iguana) from Central and South America. Other species commonly found in the pet trade include the boa constrictor (Boa constrictor), ball python (Python regius), panther chameleon (Chameleo pardalis), and red-footed tortoises (Geochelone carbonaria). The United States annually exports more than 8 million red-eared slider turtles (Trachemys scripta elegans), the world's most commonly traded live reptile.

What is the United States' role in world reptile trade?
The United States is a major participant in world reptile trade, and imports an average of 2 million live reptiles and 6 million reptile products each year. Most live reptiles imported into the United States are imported for the pet trade."

Not certain why you posted that. The United States is one of the largest countries for importation of numerous commodities so the idea it imports more reptiles is not really a surpass to anyone.

[SCReptiles]

Cake and M_surinamensis not sure where you guys came from, but I am glad you are here. I have had this debate many times on this site. Usually its just me getting slammed from the left and right by environmentalists spouting out their opinions, based on no fact and calling me ignorant cause I refute their opinions with facts. Also glad Scott finally added a little sanity. Perhaps the tide is turning, we are finally going the way of common sense? Ha ha

so do you agree yet that its not right to sell this animal?

Absolutely not. I do not care if is motive for saving the snake was finical gain, so long as the snake was saved. This guy is obviously not a herper. So when he came across it I am sure his first impression was to kill it. Then he thought maybe he could make a little profit on it, and that is fine by me….it saved the snakes life. There is nothing wrong with profit seeking, its what this nation’s economy is based on. And profit seeking is what has saved the American Alligator. See the thread below.

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=55840&highlight=alligator

SCR i apologize. I have always been told this was in fact for only places that get to cold, where the snakes need to hibernate. I have caught many pigmy rattlesnakes and relocated them to nature preserves seeing the same individuals a few times healthy and fine, ( thanks to a few free taggings). I guess those where just one of a few that make it. Now is this in all venomous species or just pitvipers? I feel awful for potentially killing all of the species i have relocated. I guess it is going to take more thought next time i have to relocate a venomous species.

I respect your statement. Takes a big man to admit when he is wrong. I don’t know how true this holds for other snakes, pitvipers is all I have studied. If some of the snakes you moved were young, they have probably assimilated and are ok. This problem affects the adults much more so then young. One thing I would add, just because a few you relocated seem to be still alive does not mean this was a positive thing you did. It’s possible you moved an individual from a population that carries a lethal pathogen. Some populations will have built a tolerance over the years, moving one of them to another population could be lethal to that population. In dealing with pitvipers, your options are leave them where they are, or move them to some form of captivity. Regardless of what anyone else will say here, there is not a third option.

I missed that part, a lot more people keep and study hots than you may relize. most people are smart enough to know not to go around advertising it thinking they are cool, espishly with pictures of themselves wrangling hots in there avatar. *cough*chuck*cough*

As with most things you post, this is incomprehensible babble and I have no idea what point you are trying to make or why your spell check allowed you to spell realize and especially without the a. =) If your main interest is venomous, that is what you work with, breed, and study, why would you not advertise that fact? Sorry man, I just don’t get what you are trying say here?

hey. the farmer where i found the dens didn't like the rattlesnakes there. should he kill them all? take them all out of the wild?

If you found a den in a farmer, then I feel sorry for that guy. And I don’t blame him, I don’t think anyone would like a rattlesnake den in them. Anyway, if you were to someday find a den on a farm and not in the farmer, here is my answer. A farm is not a public place. If the farmer knows about the animals and is willing to leave them be, then leave the animals where you found them, that is the proper thing to do. If the farmer intends to kill them, remove them. I would rather they be in the wild, then for sale on www.gherp.com. But I would far rather they be for sell at glades, then nailed to a board and for sell on ebay. How is that answer?

[M_surinamensis]

Since it's been brought up... another fairly serious aspect of relocating animals is the degree of specialization many microlocales show in the prey species they will accept. While there are obvious examples of Crotalids that eat like horses, there are many... many examples of pit vipers which are part of a localized population that has developed an instinctive feeding response for the locally avaliable prey so strong that they will often starve to death if the prey item is not provided in sufficient quantity. So a rattler that's been eating rabbits may starve to death in an area with fewer rabbits and more squirrels or vise versa (and that's an oversimplification since there are dozens of potential primary prey species for each individual species of Crotalid and then those primary prey species may have multiple subspecies, color phases or behaviors based on THEIR local population which can all further throw off the feeding instincts).

Couple this with the semi-territorial nature of the animals (not so much combatively territorial except occassionally when breeding, but the tendency for an animal to remain within a small area for all of their activities) and denning sites, basking sites even the ability to find water sources can all become compromised and lead to the death of the animal.

As Chuck said, if you want a rattler to live, you have two basic options... leave it where it is (not always possible or safe depending on where it was encountered) or take it into captivity.

[JD@reptiles]

:rolleyes: Sorry chuck. I guess I haven’t been around long enough to know all these excuses... and you really like to focus on a typo I made? I don’t feel the need to spell check because I know how to spell...

[SCReptiles]

i dont'e fill thee neede two usee the spill chick becuese i no howe to spille.

[JD@reptiles]

you're really childish man. that is like really low....

[SCReptiles]

Man, its just outright stupid to misspell as much as you do, then make the outlandish statement “I don’t need a spell check.” Hey, I am a poor speller also, but that is why they make spell check. I’ll like to debate you more, but I can’t discern what you are trying to say?

[Matt_K]

How about you both just drop it now and grow up?? If you two would like to continue your little 'debate' on spelling further, do it privately and stop wasting everyone else's time.

[SCReptiles]

Ok ok ok, I knew something like that was coming soon as I wrote it. You are right, its way off topic and I am sorry. I shouldn’t have been so insulting to old JD….it just blew my mind he said that.

[Matt_K]

It's okay Chuck, no need to apologize. I just don't want to see this thread get closed down as there is a ton of very usefull information in this thread.

[SCReptiles]

We are in accord on that issue. =)

[JD@reptiles]

Okay. Instead of trying to lunge at each others throats why don’t we come to some kind of conclusion... this is getting to the point where its personal attacks. I personally never had any problem with you chuck in the past...

All I was saying that the guy was trying to make a quick buck... If he really wanted to do something for the good of the snake he would hand it over to a good hot keeper. I sure know that there are lots on this site.

If he were to make a post saying, which one of you experienced keepers can take this snake that had to be removed from my sons work.

I would look at that a lot differently.

Jordan

[Mustangrde1]

I hadnt forgot about this thread just been very busy with life.

I did want to keep up the conversation based on facts and logical debate. There were some very suspicious information posting related to imports and the like so for the record and strait from APHIS and here is the truth


-Where do reptile owners obtain their pets?
According to the APPMA survey 2 of reptile owners, in 1998 the majority (45%) of pet reptiles
were obtained from pet stores or pet superstores. Other sources for pet reptiles included the
following: caught outside 16%; friend or relative 15%; breeder 8%; previous owner 8%;
newspaper 3%; and bred at home 2%. Turtles were by far the most frequent species caught
outside. Other types of reptiles, e. g. snakes and lizards, followed the overall percentages
regarding where they were obtained (APPMA 2 ). Other potential sources of reptiles and
amphibians that were not included in the APPMA survey as separate categories are the Internet,
shows and expos, hobby magazines, and wholesalers.
Reptiles and amphibians are bought and sold over the Internet via breeder web pages, classified
ads, e-mail, e-mail lists, communities/ malls, online auctions, and USENET posts. A search of the
Internet, which was by no means exhaustive, found almost 400 web sites that sold reptiles and/ or
amphibians. Kingsnake. com is the largest reptile and amphibian site. In addition to being a
6
turtles
snakes
lizards
other reptiles
0
100
200
300
400
500
600
(thousands) number of households

1991 1996
source: AVMA
Household Ownership of Reptiles
turtles
snakes
lizards
other reptiles
0
200
400
600
800
1000
(thousands) number of animals

1991 1996
source: AVMA
Reptiles Owned as Pets
frogs
turtles
iguanas
snakes
lizards
0% 10% 20% 30% 40% 50% 60%
Percent of Respondents

Duration of Ownership 12
12 Page 13 14
source of information on all aspects of reptiles and amphibians, approximately 6-7,000 paid ads
are placed each month on kingsnake. com, selling animals, related supplies, and services. The
webmaster for kingsnake. com estimates there were 20 reptile related web pages in 1994, 100 web
pages in 1995, 1,000 in 1996, and 10,000 in 1997 (Barringer, 2000).
It is estimated that 53% of pet stores sell reptiles and amphibians, but they typically have a limited
selection, focusing on a few popular species (Meyers, 2000). It varies how and from where pet
stores obtain their reptiles and amphibians to sell. Some corporations, such as Petsmart,
coordinate the supply of animals to their retail stores from a few centralized distributors. Other
pet store chains are not supplied by their parent company and are on their own to obtain reptiles
and amphibians to sell. And this is obviously the case with pet stores which are independently
owned and are not affiliated with a chain.
Expos, shows, and swaps are other places to buy reptiles and amphibians that occur on a frequent
basis. Reptiles Magazine has a listing of events for the year 2000 that includes 17 in June, 19 in
July, and 19 in August. In some states, these events occur monthly. In addition to live animals,
items that can be purchased at shows and expos include feeds, feeder foods (e. g. insects), cages,
equipment, supplies, books, publications, jewelry, and gift items. A large expo can have an
attendance of 5,000 to 10,000 people and have more than 500 vendor tables present. Expos and
shows also often have educational workshops and speakers covering a variety of topics including
care and husbandry, general species information, habitat, breeding, diseases, and photography of
animals. Some of these events do not allow non-captive bred animals, while some shows do allow
wild caught exotic and domestic specimens. Typically, venomous animals are not allowed.
-How much does it cost to keep a reptile or amphibian?
The average price paid for reptiles and amphibians kept as pets ranged from $15 for frogs to $33
for iguanas and lizards in 1998 (APPMA 2 ). The average price paid for snakes was significantly
greater at $91. While there is quite a bit of variation, on average, owners spent from $67 to $451
in a year for the feeding and care of their animals. Snakes are the most expensive to maintain
($ 451/ year), followed by lizards ($ 341/ year), iguanas ($ 329/ year), turtles ($ 204/ year), and frogs
($ 67/ year). These cost estimates include food, toys, supplies, non-surgical veterinary care, and
medications. Not reflected by these data is the fact that hobbyists and collectors might pay
thousands of dollars for certain species, such as those that are rare, hard to obtain, or have unique
coloring.
Reptile owners buy most supplies and feed from pet stores or pet superstores. The exception to
this is the buying of frozen foods or fruits and vegetables for feed. Most of these items are
bought from grocery stores (APPMA 2 ). In 1998, independent pet retailers (excluding pet
superstores) reported total product sales for reptiles and amphibians to be $255 million (Hellwig,
1999). Food sales and sales of animals each made up approximately 30% of this amount. The
other 40% of sales consisted of the following items: terrariums, terrarium accessories, heaters,
lights, vitamins, backgrounds, and other items. The percent of total pet product sales revenue for
the independent pet retailer that reptiles and amphibians account for, 5.9%, has stayed fairly
constant from 1996 to 1998

Appendix A: Reptile Imports
Live reptile imports 1998 -Quantity and value by port and type
--------------------------------------state= AK ---------------------------------------
Portname type quantity (#) value ($)
ANCHORAGE, AK snakes 27 325
--------------------------------------state= AZ ---------------------------------------
Portname type quantity value
NOGALES, AZ turtle s 211 3175
-------------------------------------state= AZ/ TX -------------------------------------
Portname type quantity value
OTHER PORT -REGION 2 crocs 2 1
OTHER PORT -REGION 2 snakes 1 200
OTHER PORT -REGION 2 turtles 1 1
----------------------------------
State 4 202
------------------------------------state= CA ---------------------------------------
Portname type quantity value
CALEXICO, CA lizards 2 125
LOS ANGELES, CA crocs 466 1568
LOS ANGELES, CA lizards 582619 1141497
LOS ANGELES, CA snakes 79975 584094
LOS ANGELES, CA turtles 30505 233989
LOS ANGELES, CA unspec 8158 21142
SAN FRANCISCO, CA lizards 8322 47652
SAN FRANCISCO, CA snakes 644 20911
SAN FRANCISCO, CA turtles 457 14121
SAN FRANCISCO, CA unspec 280 2613
SAN DIEGO/ SAN YSIDRO, CA snakes 8 100
SAN DIEGO/ SAN YSIDRO, CA turtles 1 100
---------------------------------------
State 711437 2067912
--------------------------------------state= FL ---------------------------------------
Portname type quantity value
MIAMI, FL crocs 4708 101032
MIAMI, FL lizards 510401 1159047
25 31
31 Page 32 33
MIAMI, FL snakes 65136 1559412
MIAMI, FL turtles 6996 99907
MIAMI, FL unspec 7213 18414
TAMPA, FL crocs 12 34
TAMPA, FL lizards 26600 60503
TAMPA, FL snakes 5431 29356
TAMPA, FL turtles 699 5777
TAMPA, FL unspec 2781 542
------------------------
State 629977 3034024
--------------------------------------state= GA ---------------------------------------
Portname type quantity value
ATLANTA, GA lizards 12451 56382
ATLANTA, GA snakes 2838 38390
ATLANTA, GA turtles 440 6700
ATLANTA, GA unspec 15289 33170
-------------------------
State 31018 134642
--------------------------------------state= HI ---------------------------------------
Portname type quantity value
HONOLULU, HI turtles 7 14
--------------------------------------state= IL ---------------------------------------
Portname type quantity value
CHICAGO, IL crocs 2 10000
CHICAGO, IL lizards 5212 28200
CHICAGO, IL snakes 706 7579
CHICAGO, IL turtles 182 5250
------------------------
State 6102 51029
--------------------------------------state= LA ---------------------------------------
Portname type quantity value
NEW ORLEANS, LA turtles 8000 6000
--------------------------------------state= MD ---------------------------------------
Portname type quantity value
BALTIMORE, MD lizards 9 294
BALTIMORE, MD snakes 25 11730
----------------------------
State 34 12024
26 32
32 Page 33 34
--------------------------------------state= ME ---------------------------------------
Portname type quantity value
HOULTON, ME lizards 1 1400
HOULTON, ME turtles 2 300
----------------------
State 3 1700
--------------------------------------state= MI ---------------------------------------
Portname type quantity value
DETROIT, MI lizards 17 775
DETROIT, MI snakes 7 490
DETROIT, MI turtles 1 3
-----------------------
State 25 1268
--------------------------------------state= MN ---------------------------------------
Portname type quantity value
MINNEAPOLIS/ ST PAUL, MN turtles 5 0
--------------------------------------state= ND ---------------------------------------
Portname type quantity value
PEMBINA, ND crocs 3 0
PEMBINA, ND snakes 60 0
PORTAL, ND snakes 210 10
PORTAL, ND unspec 1 0
---------------------
State 274 10
--------------------------------------state= NJ ---------------------------------------
Portname type quantity value
NEWARK, NJ lizards 1415 10370
NEWARK, NJ snakes 2613 212
NEWARK, NJ turtles 1 0
-----------------------
State 4029 13582
--------------------------------------state= NY ---------------------------------------
Portname type quantity value
BUFFALO, NIAGARA FALLS, NY lizards 39 318
BUFFALO, NIAGARA FALLS, NY snakes 4 350
BUFFALO, NIAGARA FALLS, NY unspec 70 3945
NEW YORK, NY crocs 393 19780
27 33
33 Page 34 35
NEW YORK, NY lizards 28095 87482
NEW YORK, NY snakes 1066 18758
NEW YORK, NY turtles 1760 40011
NEW YORK, NY unspec 600 381
----------------------------------------
State 32027 171025
--------------------------------------state= OR ---------------------------------------
Portname type quantity value
PORTLAND, OR lizards 534 2054
PORTLAND, OR unspec 4 0
-------------------------
State 538 2054
--------------------------------------state= PA ---------------------------------------
Portname type quantity value
PHILADELPHIA, PA lizards 3 0
--------------------------------------state= TX ---------------------------------------
Portname type quantity value
DALLAS/ FT WORTH, TX crocs 7 4333
DALLAS/ FT WORTH, TX lizards 5936 64696
DALLAS/ FT WORTH, TX snakes 847 125828
DALLAS/ FT WORTH, TX turtles 468 18536
EL PASO, TX lizards 1 2
EL PASO, TX turtles 12 80
HOUSTON, TX lizards 778 5490
HOUSTON, TX snakes 607 3800
HOUSTON, TX turtles 6 0
LAREDO, TX turtles 2 20
---------------------------------
State 12664 222785
--------------------------------------state= UK ---------------------------------------
Portname type quantity value
UNKNOWN lizards 2086 10354
UNKNOWN snakes 254 1732
--------------------
State 2340 12086
--------------------------------------state= WA ---------------------------------------
Portname type quantity value
BLAINE, WA lizards 4 65
BLAINE, WA snakes 15 430
28 34
34 Page 35 36
SEATTLE, WA lizards 1385 9737
SEATTLE, WA snakes 30 3260
SEATTLE, WA turtles 810 8286
SEATTLE, WA unspec 2 40
--------------------------
State 2246 21818
====== =======
1440971 5755675
unspec = unspecified reptiles
29 35
35 Page 36 37
Live reptile imports 1998 -Countries of Origin
Number
Country shipments Quantity
Colombia 206 263876
El Salvador 87 229184
Vietnam 470 168672
China 427 109192
Thailand 78 94500
Benin 289 76305
Indonesia 843 71009
Madagascar 684 63629
Togo 283 58455
Tanzania 686 52676
Egypt 179 48724
Ghana 214 43339
Nicaragua 182 27462
Russia 41 20554
Honduras 221 16806
Costa Rica 21 15545
Suriname 91 8647
Mali 43 8618
Peru 61 7383
Various, Unspecified 39 5443
Guyana 71 5065
Greece 5 5042
Guatemala 31 3640
Equatorial Guinea 5 3575
Solomon Islands 59 3441
Nigeria 23 3231
Venezuela 14 3182
Argentina 4 2990
Cameroon 68 2685
United Kingdom 11 2370
Zambia 13 2320
Germany, Federal Republic of 63 2261
Mozambique 28 1832
Brunei Darussalam 3 1750
Turkey 3 1040
Malaysia 54 1012
Sudan 1 690
Hong Kong 32 663
Switzerland 26 544
Canada 32 515
United Arab Emirates 2 500
Haiti 1 400
Czech Republic 9 365
Paraguay 2 213
Taiwan 1 200
Ukraine 1 200
Hungary 3 188
30 36
36 Page 37 38
Uruguay 8 134
Japan 11 121
Mexico 28 116
Phillipines 2 108
Spain 7 65
Chad 1 64
Barbados 1 61
Kenya 10 61
Australia 10 60
Namibia 5 45
Trinidad & Tobago 3 40
France 2 33
Netherlands 4 29
Fiji 4 20
Saudi Arabia 1 19
Korea, South 3 11
Sweden 2 10
South Africa 3 8
Denmark 1 6
New Caledonia 1 6
Brazil 1 5
Tonga 1 4
Jamaica 1 3
Singapore 1 2
Algeria 1 1
Gabon 1 1
Israel 1 1
Italy 1 1
Pakistan 1 1
Panama 1 1
Poland 1 1
========
1440971


Sorry that its not more reader friendly for the charts. The full document can be viewd at http://www.aphis.usda.gov/vs/ceah/cei/EmergingAnimalHealthIssues_files/reptile.pdf

That is a very comprehensive report with factual data not animal rights groups propaganda.

[King Cobra Fan]

Chuck is that a King Cobra in your pic?

[SCReptiles]

Yes, female Malaysian, about 12 feet.

[Gary O]

Chuck

Is she on rodents or still a snake eater?

[King Cobra Fan]

That is a beautiful snake. I can't believe you have one of the most dangerous snakes as a pet. You are a brave man. Yea, what do you feed her? Do you have any pics of her that I can look at?

[SCReptiles]

I don’t keep cobras anymore. I did when I lived in VA many years ago. Where I live now it’s very expensive to keep exotic venomous and I really don’t have that much interest in them anymore. I am mainly focused on the venomous snakes indigenous to the southeastern US. This one is a snake eater. It is possible to convert them to Rodent eaters, George VanHorn has had much success with it, however, it appears moving these animals from their natural food greatly shortens the life span. I would suggest keeping them on snakes should you ever get one. Roark has the largest I have ever seen, and probably the largest venomous snake in captivity. He feeds his adult rat snakes, however, he stuffs the snakes with rats prior to offering them. His is 20+ years, so based on that one, seems that method doesn’t seem to effect life span. A friend of mine had a beautiful 12 footer that he has kept about 4 years with no problems. He converted his to strictly rats and it died within a year. I am not certain there is a connection, but I would not risk it. Here is the only pic I have of that one on my laptop. I got bit the other night and I will not be back at work till Monday. I’ll get you some more then. I also have a good pic of Roark and his monster that I will post for you.

http://secw.bravepages.com/Chuck/scr/king_cobra_tailing_1.jpg

[King Cobra Fan]

That is one beautiful snake. What kind of snake bit you? I would love to see the pictures.

[SCReptiles]

A 40” northern copperhead got me on the left forearm, about 4“ above the wrist. This is the first one that sent me to the ER. I got hit about 645 PM. I did my normal first aid, and thought it would ok. About midnight I went to bed, within about 15 minutes the pain and swelling advanced about 3 inches in both directions. That was pretty unusual, so I went to the ER. The first aid did its job and I didn’t need the AV. I got anti-inflammatories antibiotics, and they shot me up with morphine. First time I ever had pain medicine. Was a pretty weird feeling. =)

[King Cobra Fan]

Ouch! I know what you mean. I got one of my finger's amputed at the first joint. I did it in a lettuce shredder. I was on pain killers too. I slept really well.

[psilocybe]

Originally posted by SCReptiles
I don’t keep cobras anymore. I did when I lived in VA many years ago. Where I live now it’s very expensive to keep exotic venomous and I really don’t have that much interest in them anymore. I am mainly focused on the venomous snakes indigenous to the southeastern US. This one is a snake eater. It is possible to convert them to Rodent eaters, George VanHorn has had much success with it, however, it appears moving these animals from their natural food greatly shortens the life span. I would suggest keeping them on snakes should you ever get one. Roark has the largest I have ever seen, and probably the largest venomous snake in captivity. He feeds his adult rat snakes, however, he stuffs the snakes with rats prior to offering them. His is 20+ years, so based on that one, seems that method doesn’t seem to effect life span. A friend of mine had a beautiful 12 footer that he has kept about 4 years with no problems. He converted his to strictly rats and it died within a year. I am not certain there is a connection, but I would not risk it. Here is the only pic I have of that one on my laptop. I got bit the other night and I will not be back at work till Monday. I’ll get you some more then. I also have a good pic of Roark and his monster that I will post for you.


There have been many, many keepers of O. hannah who have switched them over to rodents with no problems whatsoever...I wouldn't quite pin the death of your friends snake to it's diet. That being said, there are some people who feel that it's ethically wrong to feed a natural ophiophage rodents. I don't keep kings, so this isn't really a concern to me (at the moment at least), but unless some data comes out in the next few years that truly shows that a rodent diet has a signifigant impact (i.e. premature death) on the animals health, I wouldn't have a problem with feeding them rodents.

[Gary O]

I believe the Dwarf Kings the ERJ brought in are on Rodents. Them snakes are really cool!

[chas*e]

Don't worry people on this site will jump down your throat for anything...being politically correct is the moto here.. ....your right Chuck..better to make $20 and sell it to some one that wants it rather than kill the thing or let it go where you found it...uuumm what would be the politically correct thing to do....ps..don't forget to pay the tax on the $20..

[Slannesh]

I definately know pretty much nothing about venomous snakes other than the fact that they're illegal to keep here and are very cool looking :)

But I did see a lot of very good information in this thread, so to those of you who took the time to do the research and post the facts.. Thanks.

To all the people screaming and moaning about how evil it was to try to offer the wild caught snake for sale? Well... I hope none of you actually have any pets at all. At some point in the past someone went out and caught a wild one and that's how you eventually got yours.

I for one applaud the guy for collecting the snake and offering it up for sale rather than bashing it to death with a shovel. Should he make a habit of it? Probably not. But when the options are captivity or death.. well the first looks a while lot nicer than the latter in my opinion.

I know this is a heated topic and it comes up in many forms in a lot of areas on the site and it's definately not helped by people getting worked up over nitpicking each other's posts. So beyond what I said above I really don't have anything useful to add but I just wanted to thank Chuck, Scott and the others who posted that info. I had no idea that pit vipers were so sensitive to relocation. Learn something new every day :)

[Mustangrde1]

there is so much good info out there. The problem lays in the fact many people like to only quote a sentance or paragraph while leaving out the entire context which may very well contradict the one sentance.

Not to mention some people love taking statistics and using them for their gain again only siting a quarter of it and not the full text. Self serving to their intrest ofcourse.