Toxic plants for snakes?

[TerrorFox]

Does it matter if you put in plants that are "toxic" with snakes. I was wondering because its not like the snake is gonna eat the plant.

[Double J]

No, I wouldn't worry about toxicity.

[HeatherRose]

Are you kidding :rolleyes:

If something's toxic to a snake, then why PURPOSELY add it to their enclosure? Kicks and giggles?

If something (like flora) is discovered to be toxic to snakes, it's probably not because they ate it. Cedar is an example of this, it contains phenols which can be toxic to snakes...

Now, If I scatter cyanide capsules in and around Matt_K's room, no harm, it's not like he's going to lick them suggestively, right? :D

[Double J]

Let's be realistic here!

You cannot compare putting house plants into a snake tank to scattered cyanide capsules.

That is like comparing a popsicle stick to an assault rifle.

When people have these lists of "poisonous houseplants" on their websites, a substantial portion of them are *potentially* harmful IF INGESTED. And a large proportion of those will cause at the most, stomach discomfort and a little diarhhea, again if you EAT them. That is about it.
A philodendron, pothos, or any other common *but poisonous* houseplant will often cause NO harm to an animal despite it's toxicity unless it is ingested. Do you know of any vegetarian snakes???? That said, there are some things that would just be unintelligent to put in a tank suck as a spiny cactus, a stinging nettle, or cedar mulch. But putting a mildy poisonous houseplant that is only piosonous *if eaten* will do no harm to your non-vegetarian/omnivorous animal I GUARANTEE IT!!!!! I keep 13 varieties of dart frogs, not to mention about 7 other species of amphibians, plus my geckos and a few other things. Amphibians are far more susceptible to various plant and environmental toxins than most any snake, and I (not to mention about every other dart frog breeder in the world) keep a plethora of plants in our tanks that are poisonous *with our delicate little frogs* ..... but they are posionous *if ingested* The last time I heard of a vegetarian frog was, well, never, so this type of toxicity is of no concern whatsoever. Therefore, with little bit of common sense, I would say that most house-plants will not harm a snake in any way, even the ones that are toxic if ingested. The trick there is actually keeping the plants from getting destroyed by the snake. Let's face it, would people keep plants in their house if they continually secreted something that was so horrible?
Again, you cannot compare putting house plants into a snake tank to scattered cyanide capsules, as tThat is like comparing a popsicle stick to an assault rifle.

I think people tend to get a little out of hand with this poisonous plant hysteria.

You and your snake (or whatever other non-vegetarian herp you have) will be fine with just about any tropical house plant you can find at Home Depot... the only thing I'd be wary about would be a rubber plant... but that is about it.

[HeatherRose]

Hysteria? I was just pointing out how silly your original answer was. Why on EARTH would you risk such a thing? It just seems completely silly.

"I know this is toxic to snakes, but can I put it in my snakes enclosure anyway?"

I mean, come on :rolleyes:

[Linds]

Originally posted by Double J
and I (not to mention about every other dart frog breeder in the world) keep a plethora of plants in our tanks that are poisonous *with our delicate little frogs* ..... but they are posionous *if ingested* The last time I heard of a vegetarian frog was, well, never, so this type of toxicity is of no concern whatsoever. Therefore, with little bit of common sense, I would say that most house-plants will not harm a snake in any way, even the ones that are toxic if ingested. The trick there is actually keeping the plants from getting destroyed by the snake.

Yes, your *delicate little frogs* are just that. Snakes WILL destroy plants they put in, which in turn exposes the sap inside the plant. Some of it can be irritating to the skin, and snake are always touching things with their tongues and dragging crap in to their water, what's to say they won't get some sap in their mouths too? I agree with Heather, just because the snake's won't eat the plants, doesn't necessarily mean its good enough reason to house them with toxic plants.

[Double J]

Well then, I suppose we will have to agree to disagree.

That said, I do agree that my original response to the question was overly simplistic, and should have been elaborated upon.
But yes, I do firmly beleive that this paranoia clearly exists on your part. Let's face it, a snake keeper's knowledge of what is appropriate in terms of plants and their toxicity is generally far less than an avid dart frog keeper's, as dart frog keepers deal with various species of plants every day, in every vivarium.
But before I go into that further, let's have a look at some of the many toxic substances in snake tanks that are completely acceptable to snake keepers.

Now, there are a number of things that are present in many sound snake tanks, that have caused no ills to peoples snakes, but would absolutely kill an amphibian. First, many snake keepers use *newspaper* exclusively as a substrate. The ink rubs off fairly easily in your hands, and many snake keepers have noticed how much has rubbed off on their snakes. Now, interestingly enough, the ink in newspapers is not FDA approved, and not fit for use around food. On top of that, I managed to find a study that analyzed toxicity of black newsprint inks applied topically to mice and rats, and it yielded some interesting and surprising information. The link to the study is here:

http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/ntp/members/tox17/tx17full.pdf

Here is an excerpt from the study: "carbon black, used in some newspaper inks contains polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs); (Mr. Beliczky) noted that the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) lists some PAH's in oil as human skin carcinogens."

Here is another: "Microscopically, local toxicity at the site of application was observed in mice of all treatment groups and was characterized by acanthosis and inflammation. In summary, results of these studies indicate that topical administration of black newsprint inks and mineral oils produces local toxicity at the site of application in mice."

The report also discusses reduced body weights in female rats, and increased kidney and liver weights in both sexes (this is not a good thing).

So now, may I ask you the same question that you asked me; "If something's toxic to a snake, then why PURPOSELY add it to their enclosure?" Now you know that newspaper inks *are toxic* but yet I am sure you realize that they have worked, and still do as a substrate in snake tanks for a large number of respected breeders and hobbyists. If I were to come onto a snake forum and condemn these snake keepers for continually exposing these snakes to the toxic and potentially carcinogenic chemicals, I simply would be flamed off of the forum. Why? because snake keepers have come to understand that newspaper is a conventional substrate for their snakes, and has worked and continues to work. This is clearly the case with a substanital portion of mildly toxic plants used in terrariums. Now you can clearly see my frustration when someone who likely has far less experience with plants in terraria and vivaria says that mildly toxic plants are completely inapproriate under any circumstances, and that any keeper using any sort of plant that has been deemed toxic in any way is negligent.
On that note, newspaper is hideously toxic to amphibians, because they absorb many of the chemicals in the inks through their skin, again showing that amphibians are far more susceptible to toxins in the environment than snakes, but amphibians experience little to no trouble with most plants.
Other "toxic" substances found in snake tanks that are common and have been safe for use by snake keepers include but are not limited to: bleaches in paper towels, chlroine and chloramine in water. These three chemicals are deadly to frogs. These chemicals are also toxic to humans, but let us not forget, that they are such at *specific levels*

People tend to over-react when they hear the buzz word "toxic." It is a common, and reasonable knee-jerk reaction which is understandable. That said, toxic is a completely relative term, especially when it comes to tropical plants. Toxicity is all about levels of consumption. For substantial number of house plants deemed toxic, you would have to eat 3 or 4 entire plants for any sort of negative effect. Many of the mildy toxic plants on peoples "toxic plant lists" are merely high in oxalates, which interfere with calcium absorption... and the levels found in a number of these plants are labelled "toxic" mainly because their use would be inappropraite in a salad, or in a terarium which houses vegetarian or omnivorous animals, and eating a few plants in their entirety may cause discomfort. Frankly, the notion that a flicking snake tongue could ingest anywhere near the necessary amounts to induce even the slightest bit of discomfort is simply ridiculous. That said, a there are a few plants with irritating sap such as Dieffenbacchia and rubber plants that are generally an inappropriate terrarium plant. However, for many plants deemed toxic, this is not the case. Remember, many on these lists are merely mildly toxic if ingested in substantial amounts.

Therefore it can be concluded that many mildly toxic plants are more than safe for use in a variety of vivaria due to the fact that *high amounts* of them need to be either ingested, absorbed thorugh the skin, and even higher amounts need to be ingested through tongue flicking, or even from absorption through the vent to cause any harm. And again, it should be noted that people should choose plants that are appropriate in terms of size and mechanical structure that suit the animal the will be housed with. A pretty little orchid, an african violet, of a small philodendron will get crushed when housed with a medium sized boa or what have you. So, to the original poster, just use common sense if you wish to add plants to your snake tank.