What can I cross a Corn with?

[MichaelBoyko]

Just wondering what kind of rat snakes are genetically compatiable with my corn snakes... I know there's Emoryi but what about obsoleta?

Thanks!

[Siretsap]

Lol, someone a few months ago tempted to cross a corn with a ball python, would have called it the cornball morph. ;-) of course it was a joke, but the word game was funny.

I know you can cross some species of milksnakes with cornsnakes, some rat snakes great plains if I am correct is one of them. Some kingsnakes. I guess trial and error will prove out some of the possible crosses. anyone tried a greyband with a cornsnake before?

[BoidKeeper]

Not trying to start a flame war or a debt about hybrids or anything, but if you wouldn't mind telling me why you want to cross a corn in the first place I would be interested in hearing your reasons.
Cheers,
Trevor

[Vanan]

Michael, if you're just throwing out idea and fantasizing about doing crosses, then I don't have a problem. But if you are serious about crossing your corn with something, I beseech you to think of the repercussions of your actions. Will you be able to represent them properly? Would you find homes for all of them? Are you doing it for the money? Just some things to consider before doing something like producing crosses. And please don't tell me just cos others are doing it, it's ok. :)

To keep my post in point, most Pantherophis are readily interbred. Some efort is necessary to do a genus cross (eg. LampropeltisXPantherophis). Corns are used in crosses due to their "horny" nature. Then again it depends on the other species you're using too. It can be tricky doing crosses.

[zero&stich]

I'll just voice my opinion. Even though the jungle corn is becomming my favorate it is one thing to cross the same species, norm cornxalb corn to get some variations. To take a total different class and try to combined it with an opposite class IMHO would distrupt the natural balence. People still try to release these exoctics. Hell, a person once found a BP on a dirt road here in Vermont out in a field they said and asked if I'd take it.

Point in check, crossing two different classes could be ecologically devasting, especially if one was ever realeased back into the wild, moreso, if you did actually suceed and someone bought the babies, you never know what people will do. I suggest, because of a higher risk(s) at hand, that this project be taken to VERY conciderable concideration. There could be more issues to take at hand here other than what I mentioned.

:) Jess

[Invictus]

The class is Reptilia... I don't see anyone trying to cross reptiles with non-reptiles. :) Ths is at the Genus level.

[Fishandsnakelov]

I'm not saying to go ahead and breed these combinations, but I have a book that shows crosses between a Bullsnake & a Corn and a Gray Banded King & a Corn. Very attractive the offspring of these combos.

[vanderkm]

You will get lots of responses from people with opinions on producing hybrids, but to address the question of what species corns will crossbreed with - as Vanan has indicated - most crosses to other similar ratsnakes including black, yellow, everglades and baird's ratsnakes have been done and may not require 'tricking' the partners. The offspring are typically not very exciting in appearance in the first generation - and not very desirable when the parent species are quite a bit prettier. Corns are usually very compatible with emoryi as these species are very close (and have been classified as sub-species rather than full species designation in the past), but even then there are differences and they may not be interested in the partner.

Even with that said - it is worth being aware that just because individuals will accept partners from other species - the genetics may not be compatible. The amel gene in corns is not the same as the amel in emoryi even though they are very closely related. So crossing amels of these species will not produce amels, but normally colored offspring. The compatibility of recessive genes for patterns like striped also varies.

Corns have been crossed with members of other genuses (with cal kings for jungle corns, with gopher snakes for gopher corns, with mexican black kings for forest corns, with milks for jurassic milks) - but breedings of these type often require pairs of both species and switching partners at the right time during the breeding process.

As others have indicated - hybridization is not something to be undertaken without considering the implications - is also not something that is easy to accomplish. It is a good thing to gather as much information as you can before considering something like this,

mary v.

[MichaelBoyko]

Ok - so there's a bit to consider when inter-special breeding, I get that now. I didn't think that my abominations would be the plight of nature herself...

The warnings are duly noted and taken. I, at this point, don't have any snakes in mind for cross breeding, but one day, once I have mastered my skills at breeding pure corns had hoped to try. I don't see many books or posts about what is produced in these breedings so I had thought this would have been a good place to toss the question, to the educated peanut gallery. I will most certainly take all of the advice to heart (and probably again to this forum when the time comes years from now when I wish to attempt the cross breeding) before I do anything of the sort.

I have been inspired by a few of the hybrids (more accurately, intergrades) that I have seen. The rootbeer corns, and creamsicals (from a corn and emoryi breeding, right?) are very beautiful, larger, and interesting to me. Of course it's peaked my interest, they're very beautiful creatures!

Now, thanks to you guys, I am curious to hear more about why one shouldn't undertake cross breeding. Is it dangerous for the parents, babies, me? Is there a risk of deformities, are the children susceptible to high infant mortality.

At this point in the game I am a sponge for knowledge, let me soak! 8-P

Thanks for all your good advice!

Michael Andrew Boyko

[Vanan]

The problems with doing crosses (now that you've asked the questions) is not about the health of the snakes as much as ethics. Breeding any snake causes stress and may lead to health problems. It's just the same with crossing snakes, no more, no less. Although there have been suspected problems with using kings crossed with female corns, resulting in king sized eggs which may lead to eggbinding. This is all hypothesis and there's no data to back it up.

Others may have different views, but these are mine. My biggest problem associated with hybridizing is the purity of the genepool. Now to some, it don't matter what kinda snake they own, as long as it's a snake. For me, I like knowing snakes down to their subspecies, and if possible, locale data. As such, having hybrids out there (especially hybrids which don't look distinctly different) can muddy up pure lines of animals if one decides to cheap out and breed their hybrid to either parent species. Most do so as it is known to be easier to cross the hybrid with either of it's parent species. For example, take albino greybands (no offense to some responsible breeders ;)). It's widely know to most greyband enthusiasts that the albino gene was from a ruthveni. Meaning that all albino greybands, carry genes which are from a ruthveni. Even if they have been bred back and forth to become 99% greyband, they're still not 100% greyband. It gets worse when het albino greybands are produced. There is no visual way of telling if that het is a pure greyband or an impure snake (eg. 80% greyband, 20% ruthveni).

It's tough enough finding certain species on the market, add that with the chance of getting an impure specimen, makes it all the more frustrating. I don't believe in the whole, it's against the will of nature, it's an abomination of nature, blah blah blah. Hybrids occur in the wild too. Hence why taxonomists have hell of a time differentiating different subspecies (look up the FL king).

Edit: Thought I'd better add that I am not against all hybrid breeding, but am against irresponsible hybridization. That is, hybridizing for money, fame or personal gain is a no no. Do it out of pure curiosity. That's my two cents.

[zero&stich]

The class is Reptilia... I don't see anyone trying to cross reptiles with non-reptiles. Ths is at the Genus level.

LOL. Haha Ken! Unfortunatly I wrote that post kinda early, I am not an early bird. But way to score a rib, lol. That's a good one.

Good posts Vanan and Mary also.

To the orginal poster-
Hybrid breeding I'm for an against. I'm for it to a responsable keeper that won't exploit what they've created, fame, money ect like Vanan suggested, to possiably bring that type of breeding to the next level. But I'm am mainly against hybrid breeding for the reason I suggested above and for another good reason:You just created an entirely different species. I feel this could lead to problems in the future. If a good percentage of breeders start hybrid breeding, then what? It really could make someone think.

[Vanan]

Hybridizing doesn't create species. There's more to speciation than just qualities of two different species.

[Katt]

He who has no sin shall cast the first stone.

Although it is somewhat hypocritical of me to say, no do not hybridize, as I am a known hybridizer, I do however believe in ethical responsible hybridizing.

Breeding corns is easy, really it's a snap. Once you've mastered corns, you could try something like Pituophis, which are not boeleni hard, but a bit trickier.

The problem with hybrids, is not YOU, the breeder. Sure, you can sell your snakes as hybrids no worries, but what about the person who buys one of your hybrids and then resells it?

Why just here in Saskatchewan, a fellow ssnaker was sold a pair of 'corns' which we later identified as jungle corns. What would have happened, if that person had bred their jungles to pure corns, and sold the babies as pure!

That my dear friends is the problem. I love my hybrids, but I also like knowing the purity of my animals. I want my corns pure guttatus and my jungles 50/50 (corn/king).

People have the right to undiluted pure stock, regardless if others believe that a snake is a snake is a snake and that "species", "genus", taxonomy is just a human invention. People are fickle. I like knowing that every single of my corns can trace back to an ancestor that slithered around the mangroves of Florida. If something were to say happen that Florida was wiped off the face of the earth, here in my home, I would have part of the guttatus genes that flowed in those swampy marshes.

Some of you may shirk off your duties as a steward of the earth, thus it would not matter what I say b/c you simply do not care. Which is a shame and it is that attitude that has caused the destruction of this beautiful earth.

Back to the small picture. Most hybrids are not natural, and to argue that morphs are not natural either is a fallacy. A pastel ball python is still a ball python, a lavender hypo motley corn is still a corn, the genes to produce these morphs, resides in 100% pure DNA which could have arisen in nature. In fact, many of the morphs we enjoy today did come from wild caughts.

There is nothing wrong in being curious, in wanting to test your skills in trying something interesting, but please, think of the consequences. Could you destroy those animals who do not look like hybrids? Do you have homes you can trust to not resell and not breed back to parent species?

There is the option that I took. Keep all the babies for yourself.

[MouseKilla]

I think Vanan made an important distinction between two different types of hybrid breeding.

The goal of one type is to see traits from both parent animals mixed more or less evenly in the crossed offspring as in creamsicles and jungles. These animals are hard to confuse with either parent species for all but the least experienced keepers.

The goal of the second type of hybrid breeding is to smuggle desirable traits into a species that is not known to have them (as in the grayband/ruthveni example). I see this type of hybrid breeding as being "worse" from the point of view of someone that wants to have pure stock because the whole point of this type of hybridization is to breed back to the one parent species and disguise the other as much as possible. Generations later the pure stock breeder has no way of being sure that the"pure" grayband he is buying doesn't have those ruthveni genes hiding out inside it, he can only assume that it does.

I think there is a huge difference between the two types of hybrid breeding. I don't think either is done out of disrespect or contempt for nature (any more so than keeping any animals as personal property) but one type is a whole lot easier to detect and avoid if desired. It's actually much more a question of respecting the rights of other breeders and keepers than it is a question of respecting nature.

[MichaelBoyko]

Wow - all of this information is great!

I can definitely see how impure corns can start to proliferate the breeding community... Something I would never allow to happen. As VanderKm mentioned, she will NEVER misrepresent any of her snakes as being pure when in fact they are not. And I can understand why... If you're buying a corn you don't want to pay for an intergrade... It's untruthful and any respectable breeder (as I hope to be one day) would never consider tainting someone else's lines that way.

All that said, those Jungle Corns look soooo cool! 8-P

Thanks from Michael Andrew Boyko