Housing snakes together

[kingsnakes]

Just wondering what peoples views are on housing snakes together.
I bought myself a pair of Northern Pines (Male and Female) they are hatchlings 24 inches long and I am keeping them in the same tank and am hoping to keep them housed together on a permanant basis. I put a divider in the tank at feeding times and there hasnt been any problems at all. They have shed at different times and fed at different times. My tank is more than big enough for them (even when they reach adult)

But after much reading, housing snakes together is a no go thing to do.

Would appreciate some advice and opinions on this.

Cheers...

[Will]

Just wondering what peoples views are on housing snakes together.

Simple....

Don't.

[Shad0w]

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO... dont do it...

[hooter]

This is like the 50'th thread on housing snakes together. I dont know how to stress it anymore than to just say DONT. This is starting to piss me off actually. How do people with such a lack of knowledge care for these snakes properly is what I want to know. If you even consider housing snakes together then obviosuly you dont know much about snakes in general as they do not live in gropus in the wild *most*. I believe it should be the #1 rule to know before buying a snake...

Sure you can house them together but does that mean you should? Maybe its just easy for you and to keep them together by saving space or money. Or better yet maybe we should do whats best for the snakes and house them in their own cages.

Being mean am I? yes I am and damn man someone has to speak for these snakes being kept in such a bad manner.

[vanderkm]

There are a lot of threads and posts on the topic of housing snakes (same or different species) together and I believe you will find that almost everyone on this forum avoids it.

Shortened version of why - I don't believe there are ways to have a community tank without accepting risks - of cannibalism, of breeding too early, of one snake intimidating the other or of disease transmission. The only benefit of housing together is that it is cheaper to set up one enclosure than several. There are no established benefits to the snakes.

The greatest risk I see in what you describe is that your snakes are fed at different times - the tank is divided when either one is being fed. To me that indicates one snake is fed and one side of the tank and the fed snake will smell like prey, when it is not the other snake's turn to feed - but you cannot predict that the one that is not fed will not respond to the presence of prey and feed on the other snake when the divider is removed. The risk of cannibalism is highest in young snakes - just saw a post on another forum last week from someone who had it happen with everglades ratsnakes that had been housed together - http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15320.

We are not prepared to accept the risks of housing snakes together so we don't do it. That is likely the most common opinion among people in the hobby, and certainly is the most commonly expressed on this forum.

mary v.

[marisa]

Great post Mary. I especially like and agree with this part:

"There are no established benefits to the snakes"

There is not one reason TO house together, yet many risks involved when you do. So knowing that, it's easy to see which is better for your snakes.

Marisa

[rwg]

Hooter...I understand your reasons for feeling that keeping snakes together is a bad idea. I even agree with them, but I think you're being rude and closed-minded.

Many experienced herpers keep snakes in groups incident free. Check http://gartersnake.info/care/housing.phtml. Now, are you going to tell me Jonathan Crowe doesn't "know much about snakes in general". At Ray's reptiles in Ottawa, there are several groups being kept communally. I can not stress enough how knowledgeable the proprieters and staff are at this zoo and how much they care about the welfare of the animals. There are many other respected and experienced members of the herping community that house snakes together. You have called each and every one of them ignorant with your sweeping statements.

You have a valid opinion. Your opinion has facts supporting it, and is good advice for new herpers, but dont be so conceited as to think it is the only reasonable opinion. Housing seperately is a very good idea, but it's not the final word in herpetoculture.

As to the original question, keeping snakes together in general is a bad idea. That said, I have 7 garters that I keep in 2 cages. Each feeding I put the feeders in 1, and the non-feeders in the other. If I get the same snake in the non-feeding cage more than 2 times in a row, I take extra care of him. We had an extra small one that we kept seperate for fear of cannabalism, but he passed on. He was born small and missing an eye and part of his head, so I'm surprised he lived as long as he did. I dont know if they do better or worse communally, but they almost always eat well, and they have never bitten or musked during handling which I take as a good sign.

I also have two '04 bullsnakes I'm keeping in a 3X2 melamine cage together. I have at least 5 hides in the cage, and use 3 inches of aspen (good for burrowing). They often seem to be in the same hide. I will be seperating them very soon because the female has a much better feeding response and is now nearly double the size of the male. I'm concerned the male will be more stressed hanging out with a significantly larger roomate. I'm also wondering if the male's feeding response will improve if he is kept in isolation. I'll post my results when I come to a conclusion. All my other snakes are kept seperately.

rg

[marisa]

Garters are one of the FEW exceptions to this rule, and even at that, I still see no reason to house them together that benefits them. Garters are often found in "social" situations in the wild so maybe they do enjoy "company"

But a few exceptions out of hundreds of others species is hardly something that a person answering this question brings up every single time as a reminder of some sorts or a reason not to say all snakes should be housed alone.

But the most common question is NOT about Garter snakes. It's about someone wanting to keep their pet ball python or cornsnake together. In this case, a pine snake. The people who replied so far even said its more than possible, but there are risks involved.

When something "could" work with risks is put up against something that has NO risks and will work out great, I find it hard to imagine why one would choose to put up with the risk and no benefits to the snakes themselves over something 100% free of those same risks, and perfectly safe/healthy.

But to each their own I guess. For me, I'll simply buy another enclosure.

Marisa

[ydnic]

I agree there is no reason to keep them together - trust me I learned the hard way - I lost 3 hatchlings to a jungle corn only months before - and years before thst I never had any problems

Hooter - Get off your high horse and loose your mightier than thou attitude no buddy needs to listen to you. People come on here for help and this should be a community forum where people who need help can get it with out being ridiculed.

If you don`t like the thread don`t post - people don`t need to be bullied for what they don`t know

[Shad0w]

Yea I agree,

Hooter.. that was uncalled for...
No one should be attacked for asking for help or opinions... After all... we are all here to help eachother... At one time or another we were all beginnners...

I say... ask and yee shall recieve :)

[gonesnakee]

You would be surprised at how many zoos/breeders actually keep groups of snakes together very successfully for periods of years & years without incidents. These are people with decades of experience & some with years of schooling. IMHO though why take the chance. There are zero benefits for the animals & lots of extra risks. Why go there if you don't have too, oh ya its cheaper & more convienent LOL Mark

[rwg]

Marisa: I agree with almost everything you said, however:

"a young garter housed singly seems more nervous than it was when it had cagemates. So at least in that case it is not only all right to house garters together, but even beneficial"

This is taken from the gartersnake.info page listed above, and indicates at least anecdotally that there may be some benefit to communal caging for garters.

Check out:
http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20040327/bob8.asp

Outlines some research showing social tendencies of North American pitvipers.

What I find most interesting about this article is that it is dated March 2004. It is a relatively new finding that NA pitvipers have social tendencies. We do not know everything about the creatures around us. We dont know what interesting results might turn up next year. In the meantime, I will agree that the current evidence is that communal housing (in general) is a bad idea.

It leaves a bad taste in my mouth when people get on their soapbox and denounce anyone who even considersan alternate viewpoint as ignorant. Consideration is a thought process by which people form their opinions. Each person is free to form their own opinion in the face of the evidence and facts. To not do so is to blindly follow others who may or may not know where they're going.

Now, here's a question relevant to the original post: Does anyone have first hand knowledge of cannabalism in pituophis? I have found mention on the net of constriction during feeding, but no accounts of actual cannibalism in pituophis. Maybe I didn't look hard enough,

[rwg]

DISCLAIMER: Before you put your garters together, please read the entire article on garter snake care referenced in my earlier posts. He does mention that it is species dependant, and there are cannibalistic garters. :)

[marisa]

it's funny you bring that up because Rattlers were a species I was going to include when talking about the few cases of "social" snakes. (I use the word social due to lack of a better term)

Thanks for the link, I don't keep Garters or hots but it's an interesting read for sure.

Marisa

[vanderkm]

Originally posted by rwg


I also have two '04 bullsnakes I'm keeping in a 3X2 melamine cage together. I have at least 5 hides in the cage, and use 3 inches of aspen (good for burrowing). They often seem to be in the same hide. I will be seperating them very soon because the female has a much better feeding response and is now nearly double the size of the male. I'm concerned the male will be more stressed hanging out with a significantly larger roomate. I'm also wondering if the male's feeding response will improve if he is kept in isolation. I'll post my results when I come to a conclusion. All my other snakes are kept seperately.

rg

I will be very interested in your findings when the pair are separated - as to whether the male develops a better feeding response once he is alone.

The first year we bought hatchling corns we have housed them in pairs of females (siblings) once they were feeding on hoppers. We found repeatedly that one snake would be an aggressive feeder and the other was reluctant to feed, even though they were fed outside the shared enclosure. We attributed this to 'social intimidation' and separated these corns after about 2-3 months of this attempt at housing together. The supression of feeding response did not resolve until after brumation in these smaller individuals ('the submissive ones - my interpretation').

Though I don't have comparison among siblings housed together and those housed apart in the same year or from the same clutches, since that attempt all our hatchlings have been kept in individual tubs from when they were hatched or purchased. They have all fed consistently and I have much more uniform size and weight on yearlings now than when attempting to keep them together.

Very limited experience and may have been influenced by the size of enclosures being too small (pairs were in 40 gallon breeder tanks 36" X 18" with multiple hides) but for us it is definitely worth it to house corns separately based on that experience. Will be very interested to hear what your findings are.

mary v.