coloured play sand?

[Rhonda]

Hi all! I'm posting this question for a friend who has leopard geckos. She wants to use the coloured play sand that is now available at walmart for substrate. Does anyone know if this is safe to use? I use regular play sand for my uromastyx, but I don't know wether the dye in coloured play sand would be Ok. Any thoughts on this?

[Mystic Lizzards]

contact the company that makes it and ask if it safe to consume(for fish and animals) that should help you out, if you aren't sure stick to what you know works

[RazzleMcDazzle]

That I have heard, unless her Gecko is an adult, any sand may cause problems. If they are adult, I would suggest going to the pet store and getting some sand developed for her pets. Would she want to save a few bucks at the expense of her pets? CalciSand comes in many colours, and is formulated for accidental ingestion. The dye/colour isn't the only thing she has to worry about.... impaction (intestines being clogged) and the sharp edges of the regular sand are also problems. Hope she and her geckos make out ok.

[Rhonda]

I suggested calci sand myself because you can get it many nice colours and I know it's safe. I've used regular play sand for my uromastyx for 5 years with out any problems. I don't keep leopard geckos anymore but when I did I just used paper towel. Not very appealing but economical.

[Dani33]

Actually, calci sand is one of the worst substrates to use. Not only has it aided in the compaction of many animals, it also neutralizes the enzymes and acids used for digestion. Therefore making it very difficult for the animal to digest anything.

Play sand is much better. I don't know about the dye, sorry. I think that Mystyc lizards suggestion is a good one.

Edit, I have used Mason's sand for a beardie. It is finer and pretty white. Maybe suggest this as an alternative.

[Matt.B]

Why not use tiles? Any type of sand with leos is dangerouse they arent ment to be put on sand they live on clay and rock. Oh and you might want to read the fine print on Calci-Sand, only 66% is digestible so the other 34% can cause impaction.

[RazzleMcDazzle]

I am using a combination of ceramic tile and paper towel. The ceramics even out the heat, and the paper towel is easy to clean. I used newspaper, but it was noisey and they couldn't get a good grip, and since I was told that they could develope hip problems from a lack of grip, I switched. If she uses tiles, avoid the smooth surface tiles... go for a rough rock like finish. Matt, Dani, I wanted to use sand, but choose not to because of the risks. Rhonda, sorry for the bad suggestion.... I really wouldn't use sand at all, but I though CalciSand would be the lesser of two evils.

[Dani33]

Agreed. I don't use sand for any of my geckos. They get paper towel, some rock and bark. Really the way to go. A long time ago, I had one gecko on sand. I hand fed her and she still pooped out some sand. Never again. I may use the slate in the future if I choose to set up a display tank. Thats the best advise really.

[Double J]

Here is why any calcium based sand is garbage as a substrate. Well meaning pet shop neophytes claim..." if your animal gets a mouthful, it just digests all the calcium in the sand anyway and no harm is done."

I have to question this logic. Why you ask? What if, for the sake of arguement....... we all here each ate ohh..... we'll say in the neighborhood of 50 tums. That would wreak havoc on our digestive tracts. Our stomachs would kick into overdrive trying produce more stomach acids to deal with all that alkaline calcium carbonate in our stomach. That is a pH nightmare. Let's also not forget how that crap clumps like clumping kitty litter. I prefer regular fine, white, tropical playsand (from jamaica). My animals on sand rarely manage to eat any, and when they do, they pass it nicely... the stool speaks for itself. That said, I don't (and likely never will) keep leopard geckos, but that said, that big clump ofcalcium in your stomach can't be too good for digestion.

[Rhonda]

I appreciate all the suggestions and I will pass the info to my friend. What double J said about Calci sand makes alot of sense. I've never used Calci sand myself because I had concerns of my own about it, but I know people who have used it with out any problems. Even when I kept leopard geckos I used plain old paper towel for substrate because there was very little danger of them ingesting any of it and it was economical.

[ChokeOnSmoke]

Isn't the calcium powder you dust your feeder insects with made out of calcium carbonate(same as the digestible sand if I'm not mistaken) as well? I dont use the sand myself... but I was wondering why everyone thinks it will neutalize stomach acids when we feed them this on purpose all the time all the time.

[DragnDrop]

Dusitng food with Ca doesn't provide as much Ca as one chunk of calcium substrate. You can overdose on Ca, and if you're really good at it, you can ingest a fatal dose. Too much Ca can result in dangerous and even fatal health problems. And the Ca supplement is powder, very fine and easy to absorb, while the substrate chunks take forever to disolve, that's why they can pile up in the intestines and cause impaction.

It's a matter of a little is good, a lot is not better.

[DragnDrop]

Okay, so I'm doing 2 posts, but I thought I'd separate this one from the other reply since it's a bit different.

Some time ago I replied to an impaction thread, decided to save the info I posted. Here's a copy of my post:


~~~~~~~~~~~~
Anyone ever heard that water is the ultimate solvent? It can dissolve anything..... in time?
Given enough time it can dissolve whatever you throw into it. It will dissolve granite and
diamonds.... in time. IN TIME is the clincher.... it ain't gonna happen in one human
lifetime..... but in 'one universal lifetime'. Big diff.

Same with calci sand, reptisand... all those calcium based sands. They're 100% digestible... IN
TIME. Give the digestive juices enough time, and they'll dissolve all those little grains of
calcium compounds into mush. As long as you keep adding fresh proper-strength digestive juices,
and leave the sand in contact with it long enough... the sand too will pass :) ........
In time.

Which leopard (or other gecko, lizard or snake) has that much time to digest one grain of sand??
Not in a gecko lifetime. The grains just sit inside, pile up in a tight gut corner, calcium
content neutralizing acidic digestive juices... neutral digestion going on.... add more fresh
digestive juice with the next meal and pile on more fresh sand particles to congregate inside
the gut.... around and around and around we go...


Check out the discussion on the Gecko List about impaction in geckos. I've included the URLs and
copied the pertinent parts of the posts.

BTW, the "Keith" being quoted is Dr Keith Benson DVM:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://lists.gekkota.com/pipermail/gecko/2003-April/001438.html


I have seen many lizards, who were well supplemented with minerals, that still killed themselves
eating this material. Many animals eat inappropriate objects (particularly young ones)
regardless of their nutritional state.

Be careful out there.

Keith

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Another one from "Keith" replying to Julie Bergman from The Gecko Ranch:

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http://lists.gekkota.com/pipermail/gecko/2003-April/001437.html

Julie Bergman wrote:
> Digestible my butt! These bags of junk flat out lie! As soon as these
> "digestible" products came out all kinds of lizards started getting
> impacted on the stuff according to non-dom vets I work with.


Now julie, technically it is digestable. A very tiny amount will eventually dissolve in stomach
acid. Of course in the real world this never works and many lizards die.

There is little control over the truth in advertizing for these products - and many
manufacturers knw this and knowingly deceive the public.

Keith

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://lists.gekkota.com/pipermail/gecko/2003-April/001443.html


Calcium carbonate is indeed digestable - it will dissolve in a low pH aqueous solution - such as
that in the stomach. But - it only works so well, and ingesting similar quantities of CaCO2 to
those of what is seen in a sand impaction would likely overwhealm the system,

Keith

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you want to read the entire discussion, go to http://lists.gekkota.com/pipermail/gecko/2003-April/thread.html 2003-April Archives by Thread and read the "sand impactment " thread.

All I can say is why risk the life of your pet(s) because the sand looks so pretty or conducts heat or whatever the reason?

[TLH_Wär§cöötmän]

LOL This is why I skipped the whole substrate issue and went with Terrarium matting. No way they can eat the entire mat LOL I use Fluker's brand, and its green so its not so bad after you put all their hides in. As for economical, its washable. You buy 1 mat and your set, a one time purchase. No buying more substrate because its dirty, just wash it and your good to go.

JMO :D I bet someone will have something to say about matting, but I'd like to know if anyone has had any problems with it? In 2 years I never had any problems what so ever.

[Slannesh]

I'm a paper towel type myself... though most of my geckos are in a rack.

I've also used bed a beast as well for our big 'pet' male Leo. But it's probably important to note that he's fed out of a dish.

If I were planning a largish multi gecko display tank i'd go with the ceramic or slate tiles with the defacatorium (Is that spelled right? Big Scrabble points anyhow ;) ) floored with paper towel for easy clean up.

You can get the tiles at any Home Depot and they'll usually cut them for free... or charge something like a dollar a cut if they do charge you. Looks great, good for nice even heat and easy to clean up.