Corn vs Milk or King

[RazzleMcDazzle]

I am looking at getting a snake(s). Which are able to be kept in groups? I deffinately like the size I have seen on some Cali Kings, but I know they are going to eat each other; does this apply even if they are the same size and/or sex? I haven't read much about milk snakes, but I like the looks of a Hondurus. I also have a 6 yr old son.... which would be a better choice to avoid bites, and what kind of damage will a snake bite from these guys do? ie. infection, tooth loss or actually depth of cut. As for feeding, why cant pinkys be fed live? Do they still bite? I would think they wouldn't have teeth.... I dont feed them to the Geckos or Scorps so I have no real exposure to them.

I am leaning towards a candy cane type milk (I like the contrast of colours .... not just some motley brown pattern).

Any suggestions would be welcomed...

Troy:D

[reptiguy420]

I dont think id keep any snakes in a "group" so to speak because of the possibilities of disease and possible parasites.....

[thunder]

and cannibalism. . .

as for bites, none of these species have a severe bite, but if you do get bitten, becareful not to injure the snake.

corns are generally more calm than lampros

pinkies do not have well develped jaws and can be fed live

[Invictus]

Absolutely no snakes should be kept in groups. They are solitary creatures, and should be kept alone with the exception of breeding season. Thunder is correct, pinkies have zero capability to harm a snake. They have no teeth, and their jaws cannot open wide enough.

As for temperament, corns tend to be far more docile, but I may have just had bad luck with kings. Every king I've owned has been bitey and musky, and every milk has been nervous and skittish.

[vanderkm]

I would agree with what has been said so far - kings and milks definitely are cannibalistic - regardless of sex or age. Corns can be cannibalistic, but mostly when they are younger and have not learned that mice are food and their siblings are not. It is far better to be on the safe side and house snakes separately. A quick search of the forum will turn up lots of reasons to keep them separately aside from the risk of them eating each other.

As far as comparison among corns, kings and milks - in our experience and these are generalizations but - corns are the most reliable - calm, can be handled by anyone, feed regularly and come in the greatest diversity of colors for the most reasonable prices. They are readily available, get to be a good size and are just great snakes to have. While they are nocturnal, they do come out in the evening and seem to become accustomed to handling and almost 'look forward to' their times when they are out of the cage for interation.

Most milksnakes are quite shy, prefer to hide much of the time and although they have dramatic red, orange and black or white colors - the albino versions of most are relatively expensive - an albino corn will run $50 for a hatchling, where an albino Hondo is at least $400. Hondos musk and bite as babies but grow out of it and as adults they are impressive in size, feed very well and are definitely my favorite snake - but you have to get through the baby stage first. Where a baby corn will be likely to wrap it's tail around your hand and hang on - a milksnake will do its best to thrash, poop, bite and squirm until you let it go. They take a lot more patience and the hatchlings are not a good choice for children.

Kings are very diverse from the big cal kings to some of the smaller and calmer species. Cal kings are great - can be huge adults and the high contrast color is nice. They also have tons of personality - they spend a lot of time out of their hides, ours are always out cruising and when handled consistently, they are very reliable. Mexican black kings are very similar and have incredible irridescence. We have not had good luck with the albino versions of cal kings - much more hyper and bity in my experience - though even as adults the bites don't hurt - just tend bleed a bit, and cal kings can be a bit 'chewy' when they bite where corns just drop you once they have bitten.

I am partial to the smaller king species - the variable king, san luis potosis king and durango mountain kingsnake. They get to 3 feet, most are grey with reddish saddles and they are the sweetest, gentlest snakes you could imagine! Not as common as cal kings and cost a bit more, but a great species.

Best of luck with your choices,

mary v.

[hooter]

Def do NOT start with Milks. They are nervous and skittish just as Invictus said and you will not even be able to hold most baby Milks because they are so crazy. They musk all over you and sometimes bite as well. It mainly just depends on the snake itself.

If you want a calm snake with a less chance of getting bit then get a Cornsnake. Do not keep in groups like said above and do yourself and the snake your gonna buy a favor and research some more because you dont seem to know much * no offence*. Read all you can and again I would go with a Cornsnake. They have many color morphs on the market as well so i'm sure you can find something that you like.

[TerrorFox]

I have a Jungle corn (cal king mixed with corn) and she is docille as can be, but they have cannabalistic tendancys so you wouldnt want to keep them all together.

[Frillie]

A corn is the best choice

But regarding the live mice, there is no point starting a hatchling corn on live mice...they eat frozen thawed readily. You are only setting yourself up for the need to feed larger live rodents later on when it CAN and often WILL become a problem.

ONLY move to live if you've tried EVERYTHING ELSE.


peace

[RazzleMcDazzle]

Hooter.... I have done plenty of research, it's just hard to keep a lot of things straight. When looking at any particular species, they have good and bad points, and they are being pointed out here. This is what I wanted.... a comparison by people who have dealt with my 'narrowed down' choices. I think I will go with a corn, and obviously will do more refined research. My question about keeping groups is because a certain store in Mississauga has dozens of snakes of many types(morphs) in the same enclosure... and I had always read it wasn't a good idea. Since this is their money maker... I was wondering what you all thought about it. I personally would like to have 6 or so in a nice display. Thanks for the warning about musking.....

[TerrorFox]

wow you would need a very large space for 6 snakes.

[RazzleMcDazzle]

thanks Frillie.... another good point which I forgot. Just was reading a thread about fussy eaters and I was wondering about just feeding live pinkies...

[TerrorFox]

My JC is sometimes a bitch when it comes to eating prekill, but persistance is the key when feeding dead mice.

[Will]

If you are buying a corn directly from any half-way decent breeder, feeding these guys(Corns, Kings, OR Milks) should not be a problem whatsoever. Most reputable breeders should have their stock well established on frozen food before it is sold, and these guys rarely turn down a meal. ;)

I'll toss my vote in for either a Corn, or Cali. With a 6 year old you may not want to freak him out with a jumpy Milk...

[Tigergenesis]

Many stores do it - doesn't mean it's a good idea. Unfortunately, petstores do/say quite a bit of wrong things. They do it to save space and because they hope the snakes won't be there long. The risks far outweigh the benefits (cannibalism, disease transmission, stress, going off feed, competition for hides, difficulty monitoring feces, possible loss of entire collection and higher vet bills if one gets sick and passes it on, etc.). Get mulitple cages/tanks and have fun decorating each one. :)

[RazzleMcDazzle]

Gr8, now can anyone tell me if they know of a any specific morph to avoid because they are not very hardy? I am thinking of trying to get hold of a pair of opals and a pair of candy canes. These snakes look 'nice' to me, but I haven't been able to find any thing directly on them. I know some of the people in the forums specialize in corns, but I didn't want to ask directly.... maybe they can help me out with their thoughts and experience before they leave ;-)

Troy

[marisa]

Morphs are really nothing but a different skin color. So far none have shown to be "weaker" or "hardier" than the next.

If the store had the same species of snake but different colors/morphs, that's one thing, but still highly unrecommended and cheap. But even worse is a mix of species. Ugh.

Marisa

[RazzleMcDazzle]

Are you referring to my communial question? If so, I cant quit remember what it was, I do remember there was several types and dozens of them.... looked quit denomic in fact :-)

I thought the albinos where naturally 'weaker'. And I thought morphs were the result of selective breeding certain genetics together, abinoism being one type.

[vanderkm]

Cornsnake morphs are usually a result of recessive genes (albino or amelanism being the most common - but many others in corns) but they aren't specifically associated with any health issues (although there is always some speculation that any gene that reduces eye pigment from dark to red will result in light sensitivity. Corns are nocturnal anyway so not up much in the light of day. When morphs are developed in the early stages, there is typically quite a bit of inbreeding that is blamed for reduced vigor in the morph lines but with virtually all common cornsnake morphs, you will find that most lines are now quite outcrossed - if you buy directly from a breeder you can get assurances about the genetics of the animals you are purchasing.

There are some strains in corns that can be harder to start feeding on mice than others - Miamis and Rosy (rosy ratsnake - may actually be a different species from corns) may prefer lizards to mice to start. Bloodred lines have had a reputation of being harder to get going early in the development of the strain, but for the most part they are now as vigorous as any other strain.

Candycanes are selectively bred red albinos (amelanisitics) that have been selected to have greater amounts of white background. They are relatively common, but vary a lot in quality - most baby amels look 'candycane' like as hatchlings before the yellow background pigments come in at 6-8 months of age. If you want good candycanes be sure to see the parents of the hatchling.

Opals remain relatively uncommon in Canada and command a higher price than many other varieties. Again there are differences among lines - some have quite a bit of orange or peach tones in their color as they mature, others remain quite similar to snow corns.

You may want to check out Simon Fung's gallery - http://www.extremesnakes.com/. He has the most extensive collection of corns in Canada to my knowledge and is located in London Ontario. He hasn't been on the forums much lately but he certainly has some great candycanes.

mary v.

[RazzleMcDazzle]

Simon was who I was referring to. I didn't think forum ettiquite allow for links to sites or mentioning names.... I didn't want to be black balled. His site started everything for me, but I decided on Geckos cause I was squimish about feeding mice. I wanted to get some before he left. I heard him say in some threads he was leaving canada!!!! I dont want to become the rumor mill.... but that put the pressure on me to get some of his stock before he disappears.